Is it time to move on from BB?
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They didn't lose. They got embarrassed. How many wins this year does it take to make the feelings not "raw"? It is OK to start asking hard questions.
BB deserves to be evaluated the same way he evaluates players. Past performance doesn’t matter. The question is, is he the right person going forward?
And to be honest I’m not sure he is. I’m not on a “BB must go this offseason” kick yet, but the Krafts should be thinking about long-term replacements.
And to be honest I’m not sure he is. I’m not on a “BB must go this offseason” kick yet, but the Krafts should be thinking about long-term replacements.
I'd love to see Mike Vrabel as HC of the NEP, if the Titans are stupid enough to let him go at some point.
It really isn’t just a loss. It’s the continuation of piss poor play that has existed for several years now post-Brady for a roster that he personally built.
His hand-selected QB sucks ass. His offense sucks ass. His team routinely makes mistakes, mistakes that have cost them at least 1 win. Belichick has objectively done a poor job since Brady left town. His drafts haven’t been good. His offensive FA signings have been putrid. Jonnu Smith is averaging 60 YPG in Atlanta. We couldn’t even get him to tie his shoelaces properly.
Something is very wrong with the entire operation. If BB wants to continue coaching beyond this year, I wouldn’t categorically reject a mutually-beneficial trade.
He’s earned the right to go out how he wants but I don’t have a whole lot of confidence that he’ll right the ship. And now we have a million injuries to deal with, which will further cloud the analysis.
The way I see it, the fundamental question is whether the coach of the next Patriots Super Bowl winner is more likely to be BB or someone else? I am convinced it will not be BB. I have no loyalty to him and no fan of the Patriots should either at this point. All time run. He got paid massively and is widely acclaimed as the best coach ever (even if he has a losing record without Brady). Let's try for the next one.
Do you really believe this loss is what puts BB on the hot seat? Do you really believe that the score of a loss determines BBs fate?
If the Krafts are concerned about the direction of the team like many of us (I am) do you honestly believe today shifted things? I can't see them reacting to a differential but maybe Bob is just so embarrassed with Jerry that BB is now about to be canned.
As I noted in the goat thread, anybody questioning Bill's success as either GM or coach up until and including the 2019 Super Bowl truly should be ignored as someone that does not know what they are talking about.
However, when a team is 1-3 and looks pretty bad, following a season in which the team missed the playoffs (2020 season was complete don't-care across the board), then it's fair to question the results in a business that is judged primarily by results on the field. Bill's recent drafts have done a lot to put the team into its current hole (with the caveat that it is still way too early to judge either the 2022 or 2023 drafts), and the free agents brought in on the offensive side of the ball have not had the desired impact. And Mac Jones was drafted by Bill the GM.
Personally, I think teams that constantly churn coaches and GMs are less likely to succeed than ones that at least give their own leadership sufficient time to see things through. And I think Bill has earned the opportunity to see things through both this season and next, and in the process at least giving him the chance to move on from Mac Jones if that is what is needed.
However, when a team is 1-3 and looks pretty bad, following a season in which the team missed the playoffs (2020 season was complete don't-care across the board), then it's fair to question the results in a business that is judged primarily by results on the field. Bill's recent drafts have done a lot to put the team into its current hole (with the caveat that it is still way too early to judge either the 2022 or 2023 drafts), and the free agents brought in on the offensive side of the ball have not had the desired impact. And Mac Jones was drafted by Bill the GM.
Personally, I think teams that constantly churn coaches and GMs are less likely to succeed than ones that at least give their own leadership sufficient time to see things through. And I think Bill has earned the opportunity to see things through both this season and next, and in the process at least giving him the chance to move on from Mac Jones if that is what is needed.
Bottom line is the problem with a succession plan from BB right now is this team is at an apparent nadir (we hope). You can't have a transition plan with god-knows-who as your future quarterback and the next coach out after 2 years. You can't have Mayo or Steve Belichick or BOB set up for failure with this squad. And you'd have to sign someone outside the organization for like a 10-year contract for them to be comfortable being the coach succeeding BB. The Krafts will not have another Raymond Berry to Bill Parcells prolonged suck-fest which preceded their ownership - and part of this was the revolving door. As mentioned above, I'm sure the Krafts will be of similar mindset that the option behind door #2 better be more compelling than the all-time greatest coach who is at whatever fraction of his peak he is now.
The problem is a homegrown QB is such a luck of the draw. We thought Mac was it as he "dropped" to us several years ago, but that has come to pass. The QB position is the thing hanging over this franchise and whether by draft or finding the next diamond in the rough leaving their first team this needs to be identified. The Patriots are as poorly positioned as anyone for this determination, as BB was good at identifying perfect backups and 1B type QBs like Mallett, Garoppolo, Brissett, Cassel, etc. but it has been the turn of the century since a real franchise guy needed to be chosen. I am HOPING the QB going forward is positively identified in the next year or so and BB can coach a few years on his own timeline before handing over the reins. But if this offense can't develop past a "bad weather" run-first affair, there are only so many seasons before they need to let BB go and tear it down with their best guess at a proper successor.
The problem is a homegrown QB is such a luck of the draw. We thought Mac was it as he "dropped" to us several years ago, but that has come to pass. The QB position is the thing hanging over this franchise and whether by draft or finding the next diamond in the rough leaving their first team this needs to be identified. The Patriots are as poorly positioned as anyone for this determination, as BB was good at identifying perfect backups and 1B type QBs like Mallett, Garoppolo, Brissett, Cassel, etc. but it has been the turn of the century since a real franchise guy needed to be chosen. I am HOPING the QB going forward is positively identified in the next year or so and BB can coach a few years on his own timeline before handing over the reins. But if this offense can't develop past a "bad weather" run-first affair, there are only so many seasons before they need to let BB go and tear it down with their best guess at a proper successor.
I think the real question is BB fed up with this? He had an ultra surly 3 minute press conference. His last playoff game was a total ass kicking. He knows that he has a good defense but a peashooter offense. He looks to have lost Judon and his top 4 CBs are hurt. This season could be a lot of shit eating unless this offense heats up.
I don't. I'm looking at the totality of everything. If you are looking at this team from an honest P.O.V., they fucking suck and have no chance to make any noise whatsoever in their own division, let alone conference or the league in general. And they have not been a serious contender for 4 years now. That is a resume that gets most HC (let alone GMs) on the hot seat.
This is a weird response but it does add to my belief that this board has a hard-on for BB that you won't find anywhere else in the sports world.
You won't find that love on another team's board and the Patsfans board is considered the slums of the online Boston boards.
This board in particular is the sports board for nerds and BB is the greatest nerd in sports with his 30-minute pressers on long snappers and the Wing-T offense. Some people around here get off on seeing him tell reporters to go to hell when asked about the actual game that happened while he pontificates on the genius of Paul Brown.
but if u did not draft mac jones they was rumors' they liked davis millis at stanford and at his best he is the same as mac
brady was a one in a zillion type qb pick
if mr kraft refuses to pay his qb top $ going forward then the only way to win is build everything around a gamemanger qb with etile RB WR OL'S
if u do pay the QB he has to be mahomes-lite to win and even that he has ave WR and a o-line that gets a haif-a-second head start
the legure is going away from def and going toward a game that u have to score 28-38 points a week to win
brady was a one in a zillion type qb pick
if mr kraft refuses to pay his qb top $ going forward then the only way to win is build everything around a gamemanger qb with etile RB WR OL'S
if u do pay the QB he has to be mahomes-lite to win and even that he has ave WR and a o-line that gets a haif-a-second head start
the legure is going away from def and going toward a game that u have to score 28-38 points a week to win
If people want to ignore or diminish the body of work that came before it, I guess. He only won because he had the GOAT LB and QB. The game has passed him by, something like that.
That's the problem with a coach like Belichick, you can't evaluate him like you would the guy who is in Detroit or Chicago.
and also if u get rid of bill the next coach couild be like the bears coach or vance joseph and u dont want vance joseph
So what’s your position? He’s entitled to be coach as long as he wants? If not, when is it fair to start questioning?
bill b won that 1990 super bowl playing 9 guys back was all time gensis
Nobody was trying to hire Phil Jackson as coach or GM after his time with the Knicks. Sometimes things just end for the greats. If I was the owner, I wouldn't let Belichick near my next 1st round QB, but I don't wear sneakers with my suits or think Meek Mil is cool.
Said elsewhere, but this idea that you cannot separate what you're seeing right now from his career accomplishments is absurd. This isn't a single down year. BB has had multiple years to build something after Brady and this team looks more terrible than it's ever been. I don't what know people are looking at anymore.
Kraft himself is another one to think about. He made a ton of great business decisions to get where he is but he hasn't had to make a serious one in 20 years. He's basically made a lot of money and a lot of friends, male and female, coasting off of two guys killing it. How he handles this new phase in his tenure is going to say a lot about him and the organization going forward as well. Frankly I'm looking forward to it.
Funny enough, the owner he can probably lean to for advice (huge success after buying a team, then falling into mediocrity once the coaches/QBs/talent disappear but maintaining franchise relevance) was the other one in the building today.
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good take rem vince lombrambi ending in wash allthrough i think if he never gets cander he wins super bowl 7 aga miami and shula never has his 17-0
If it were possible to separate Bill the coach from Bill the GM I'd say no, he shouldn't be fired/"consciously uncouple". But since that is a non-starter, I feel like it'd be in the best interest long term for the team to turn the page and move on.
The offense is currently built like BB still thinks Tom is walking through the door everyday and the drafts, as has already been stated, have yielded very little. If Bill had treated Brady the way a significant percentage of you are, Tom would still be playing for this team. But you don't pay someone on past performance and this is only getting worse 3 years removed from Tom's exodus. If this was 2020 and we were witnessing these types of performances, it would be what we should expect. But this team is getting progressively worse years after the GOAT left, while simultaneously drafting in the middle of the first round and splurging on free agents.
The offense is currently built like BB still thinks Tom is walking through the door everyday and the drafts, as has already been stated, have yielded very little. If Bill had treated Brady the way a significant percentage of you are, Tom would still be playing for this team. But you don't pay someone on past performance and this is only getting worse 3 years removed from Tom's exodus. If this was 2020 and we were witnessing these types of performances, it would be what we should expect. But this team is getting progressively worse years after the GOAT left, while simultaneously drafting in the middle of the first round and splurging on free agents.
Things looked to be trending up in 2021, but that seems like a long time ago. It could definitely be worse with a new HC/GM, and if we have to watch BB win in Dallas or something after watching TB win in Tampa that might really leave a sour taste. But all good things end. I'm coming around to the idea that if this year ends with 5-6 wins or whatever then it's time for the change.
Yup. You cannot have BB without BB the GM who picks all of the groceries on offense and defense. This was great and convenient during the glory years but this is a disaster from an organizational standpoint when shit hits the fan like it has now.
The worst responses in this thread are "well ok, find someone better than 6-SB winning coach." Well, you can't. You don't know who's better until they coach. Nobody knows McVay of McDaniel are any good until they get a chance. Kraft didn't know BB was this good when he hired him, and maybe he needs to take that chance again.
Let BB part ways and get hired for a new start with a new team, hire Ben Johnson, let him pick his QB, and give it a shot. We're not seeing anything good in this organization right now.
The worst responses in this thread are "well ok, find someone better than 6-SB winning coach." Well, you can't. You don't know who's better until they coach. Nobody knows McVay of McDaniel are any good until they get a chance. Kraft didn't know BB was this good when he hired him, and maybe he needs to take that chance again.
Let BB part ways and get hired for a new start with a new team, hire Ben Johnson, let him pick his QB, and give it a shot. We're not seeing anything good in this organization right now.
Start? Name a time when people haven't felt that BB was messing up? Its a constant in this forum and I bet without any prompts people can name BB-lost-it posters including those who shared that sentiment prior to the last three championships. Moving on from Belichick has never been out of style and people can discuss it all they want.
It just doesn't seem realistic that a blowout loss to Dallas at home in week four of an expected middling season is the tipping point here. Maybe its is but that would be wildly inconsistent with how we have seen the Krafts operate to date.
No. Calm down. Yes, we all have our frustrations. Yes, his drafts have been up and down lately (and down and down), and yes, sometimes it seems like he’s coaching from the Brady era and he’s stubborn. But, as others have said, who would you rather have? I would rather have BB. If it means putting up with his lack of vision when it comes to supplying Mac with weapons, putting up with his “at this point, I’d rather coach guys I like to coach,” then so be it. I want BB, I want the record for wins. I want him to draft a #1 WR and give Mac legit tackles.
I don't understand this rationale when Mac has shown absolutely nothing that would indicate that he could consistently get the ball to a legit #1, not to mention that even in his prime BB showed that he couldn't pick a #1 WR in the draft to save his life. But even if BB lucked into one, Mac does not have the physical attributes needed to be a productive second-tier level starter in the NFL, but I suppose that's for another thread.
He can retire when he's good and ready. I don't think he'll be shy about admitting when it's time. Until then, Kraft and Patriots fans can and should do what they've been remarkably, notably good about doing the last 23 years: not second-guessing a guy who has forgotten more about preparing and leading a football team than any of us will ever know.
I don't care if he gets embarrassed by the Cowboys. I don't care if we go 1-16 this year (and if we do, I think he'll make the decision for us). He's earned the right to go out on his own terms, and I'll be damned if I'll advocate for cashiering him just because it'll feel good in the moment or something.
I don't care if he gets embarrassed by the Cowboys. I don't care if we go 1-16 this year (and if we do, I think he'll make the decision for us). He's earned the right to go out on his own terms, and I'll be damned if I'll advocate for cashiering him just because it'll feel good in the moment or something.
My position is irrelevant. I can't make hiring and firing decisions for the Patriots so nobody should care.
That said, I have watched enough wonder kind type GMs and coaches flameout during my life to know that you need to be a 100% certain he's lost it before you jettison a guy like BB. But I fully understand that others here feel quite the contrary.
Again, what we think in week four of 2023 or week whatever of any rough stretches past doesn't matter. Does today change things for the Krafts?
The transition will be really hard to handle but I'm beginning to think its time. We've can rehash all the evidence on the field over and over. But the bigger picture is that the guy will be 72 next offseason, in a league where most head coaches find their greatest success in their 40s and 50s. I'm pretty sure only three guys have ever won the SB past age 65 (with BB being one of them). And this isn't just a football thing. Look at the age distribution of CEOs in the S&P 500 and you see almost nobody in their 70s and most that are still around at that point are founders that can't be easily removed.
BB is the GOAT. But that doesn't mean Father Time doesn't have a say just like with everybody else. Its simply very rare for people at this stage in life to truly be able to excel against stiff competition in high stress, high responsibility leadership roles. I don't see why we would assume it to be any different with him and there's a growing body of evidence that it isn't.
BB is the GOAT. But that doesn't mean Father Time doesn't have a say just like with everybody else. Its simply very rare for people at this stage in life to truly be able to excel against stiff competition in high stress, high responsibility leadership roles. I don't see why we would assume it to be any different with him and there's a growing body of evidence that it isn't.
I didn’t get that at all from Drunken Friar’s post. He seems to be very clearly talking about the performance post Brady and doesn’t seem in any way to be diminishing BB accomplishments. Not sure where you’re getting that.
Why is this an "expected middling season?" And what is "expected" after this 'expected middling season?" I really don't understand this concept that we should just sit here and watch this team play the same brand of middling to awful football over the course of several years without question.
You seem to imply this is part of a natural NFL cycle that has success at the end of the tunnel. I don't see it but I'd love for you to show me.
Since they let Brady go the Pats have been mediocre across the board from drafting, coaching, free agency, and winning. Are you really cool with watching this product now?
Is there another example during his tenure of a “rough stretch” like the last 2 years? I don’t think there is. This is different now. Not surprising since they no longer have the GOAT. But I think a two year nadir is enough to start asking questions.
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