Poll: What do you WANT to see happen with BB?
- Thread starter DJnVa
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Option no. 2 for me. I don’t think for a minute Bill has forgotten how to coach, motivate, game plan, etc. But we have a big enough sample size of terrible offensive roster construction to warrant letting someone else shop for those groceries. Unfortunately, I think that’s also the least likely scenario, and it will be one of the other 3.
I don't think it's an all or nothing call here. I think they can bring in stronger front office folks for player personnel, something like firing Groh and bringing in a stronger presence like a Pioli or Caserio type. I think BB is probably trusting the FO too much and doesn't have the right guy shopping for the groceries.
Keep BB, rework the FO, profit.
Keep BB, rework the FO, profit.
There were only two possibilities for me to decide between.
I first considered Option 2, but came to the conclusion that there's no chance of BB allowing it to happen, or it working without turmoil ensuing.
Therefore, I chose Option 4 -- clean slate, honor the past without trying to hang onto it with a legacy hire.
I first considered Option 2, but came to the conclusion that there's no chance of BB allowing it to happen, or it working without turmoil ensuing.
Therefore, I chose Option 4 -- clean slate, honor the past without trying to hang onto it with a legacy hire.
I’m here too. I also worry that BB staying as HC won’t have the right offensive coaches on staff. Would he still be making the call on coaching hires, or would it be the new GM?
I think it’s time to just cut the cord.
I voted for the clean break. I love what BB has done for the franchise but nothing lasts forever. I don't think this has been a well-coached team the last two years: the penalties, the turnovers, the utter stupidity, the lack of player development, the special teams were flat-out the worst in the league last year, and the team is getting worse. I am at the point where I am starting to believe it was 80% Brady.
I don’t understand the concern of him hiring coaches. Is that all based on last year? It was certainly a low point in that regard, but I also think they got caught without great external options. But otherwise, I think his hires have been very solid throughout his tenure, including BOB this year. Who hasn’t, in my view, been the problem with the offense.
Cam Achord has not exactly covered himself in glory. Nor has Klemm. Unsure if Troy Brown has any positive influence. I agree it's been good on D - Flores, Mayo, his sons, even Josh Boyer appears to be a good coach. I just worry he's only going to hire his guys and they need some new ideas on offense.
Agree with Achord, but I don't think you can blame Klemm for the offensive line woes. Crappy personnel options, with a ton of injuries. 5 different guys lining up in different spots every week (except center of course). It is impossible to be consistent with that constant rotation. O-line guys depend on each other, and with a steady line, each guy knows what the other is going to do.
tl;dr: I am giving Klemm a pass this season.
I agree 2 isn’t happening so chose 1. Belichick is an intelligent person. He knows this roster is rough and knows he has to do better. Yes this didn’t happen overnight and it is a case of multiple mistakes over the years but it took this year to really appreciate how bad it got and it will take time for it to get better. Bill deserves a chance to fix the roster.
I just think you can do so, so much worse than BB as a HC and giving any HC this roster will be huge challenge. Whether that’s Mayo or the hottest coordinator from outside the org that would take the job, I would put odds that person lasts 4 years at like 10%.
My head says #4, my IBBWT heart says #2. Give BB some talent to work with on offense (I know, his fault to begin with) and we're all suddenly less available to whatever on a Sunday afternoon. But who am I kidding, it will be #1.
I said this in another thread, but with the sheer volume of information available in this day and age there are barely enough hours to be a coach or a GM, let alone both. Regardless of what you think of Bill the GM, there is no way he's able to commit the time to do both jobs optimally, and that shouldn't cut it in a business like the NFL. I want him to stay as a couch and bring in an outside GM, but sadly I can't see him being ok with that
The way I look at it is that I try to think of how BB would look at himself and I think that he would realize that he lost some of his fastball and isn't getting it back and probably would have fired himself a year ago. I mean one of the main reasons why BB is sticking around is to pass Shula; at least that's what we're told. Would BB have let a player that wasn't contributing as much as he used to take up a roster spot to chase a record? Doubtful. Why should BB hold himself to a different standard?
I think BB should go. Maybe follow in the footsteps of Lombardi and head to Washington.
I think BB should go. Maybe follow in the footsteps of Lombardi and head to Washington.
Option #3, but from the perspective of a non-Pats fan. If I was pretending to be a Patriots fan I'd rank order the options 1,2, 4, 3.
But really, I think the best Pats fan option would be a cross between 1 and 2 where the Patriots bring in a strong GM that BB respects, but BB still has final say. I don't think BB would ever agree to a strong GM who has final say.
I think BB would benefit greatly from stronger voices in the room.
But really, I think the best Pats fan option would be a cross between 1 and 2 where the Patriots bring in a strong GM that BB respects, but BB still has final say. I don't think BB would ever agree to a strong GM who has final say.
I think BB would benefit greatly from stronger voices in the room.
I chose #2, expecting BB would never actually relinquish GM authority. But if he could bring in somebody to sit in the GM chair under him as Head Coach and POFOPs who a.) he genuinely respected, and b.) wasn't afraid to disagree with him, everyone could win.
I don't know that such a person exists however. Maybe Nike?
edit: Very similar to @EvilEmpire 's take right above mine.
I don't know that such a person exists however. Maybe Nike?
edit: Very similar to @EvilEmpire 's take right above mine.
I've said this multiple times but I will put it a little differently here:
I don't want Bill to leave, really ever. I just think pro football is more interesting with him coaching the Patriots. Could we win more with somebody else? Absolutely. But no amount of winning will ever top what we've already done. Plus, this is entertainment not politics, and I enjoy watching Bill try to figure this post-Brady era out (the Buffalo game was a joy).
Obviously, it's not easy -- and maybe he's lost his fastball when it comes to coaching up an offense (I think it's unlikely) or picking the right guys (I actually still think this is unlikely too -- and that it's a brain drain/OTAs problem more than anything else). And no he's not infallible. But the Patriots will always be more fun to watch for me with Bill at the top -- and I'd rather he do that until he literally can't anymore.
I don't want Bill to leave, really ever. I just think pro football is more interesting with him coaching the Patriots. Could we win more with somebody else? Absolutely. But no amount of winning will ever top what we've already done. Plus, this is entertainment not politics, and I enjoy watching Bill try to figure this post-Brady era out (the Buffalo game was a joy).
Obviously, it's not easy -- and maybe he's lost his fastball when it comes to coaching up an offense (I think it's unlikely) or picking the right guys (I actually still think this is unlikely too -- and that it's a brain drain/OTAs problem more than anything else). And no he's not infallible. But the Patriots will always be more fun to watch for me with Bill at the top -- and I'd rather he do that until he literally can't anymore.
Reading the question as written, I WANT someone else making decisions on roster building, especially with high draft order looming. I still think BB can and should coach, but agree with others above that a cleanup of the staff is needed. Achord and Brown need to go. Not sure about Klemm. Defensive staff seem OK.
All that said, if the new GM drafts and brings in good skill players (top WR, new OL pieces, 3rd down back etc.) and things don’t improve, I’ll be done with BB after next year.
All that said, if the new GM drafts and brings in good skill players (top WR, new OL pieces, 3rd down back etc.) and things don’t improve, I’ll be done with BB after next year.
I think if I were the Krafts, I would wait until the end of the year. Bill and BOB get a little bit of the benefit of the doubt because of all the offensive line injuries. If they do a little better and finish in the pick 6-15 range, it would mean that the line played better and some of the younger guys probably stepped up and you can see the team getting better next year if they have a good offseason. Then I would keep the status quo while stressing how important next season was.
If he finishes with a top 5 pick then that means they continued to be just as bad, and the team won't be fixed in one offseason, plus what to do with that pick would define the next 5 years of the team. I also don't want someone rebuilding the team who is only concerned with this year -- I want someone who fully understands that it's a multi-year process and you need to find and develop a new core and identity on offense. Bill already tried that once and failed.
If that's the case then you have to go with 4. If he really wants the all-time wins record someone else will give him a chance to get it but it would be time to move on.
If he finishes with a top 5 pick then that means they continued to be just as bad, and the team won't be fixed in one offseason, plus what to do with that pick would define the next 5 years of the team. I also don't want someone rebuilding the team who is only concerned with this year -- I want someone who fully understands that it's a multi-year process and you need to find and develop a new core and identity on offense. Bill already tried that once and failed.
If that's the case then you have to go with 4. If he really wants the all-time wins record someone else will give him a chance to get it but it would be time to move on.
Told by who? I hear it on here and occasionally from other fans but that seems more projecting their own feelings. Haven't seen any real reporting on it.
Also, if there is one thing Belichick has proven over time is that he has always looked at more than just a single season.
You forgot the option where BB brings in Chaim Bloom and Claude Julien to help right the ship....
I voted #1, as I still believe it to be the best option (also the most likely to happen). But I do think there should be a conversation about changing the way the office of player personnel operates, as the current method is not working all that well, especially when it comes to offense.
I voted #1, as I still believe it to be the best option (also the most likely to happen). But I do think there should be a conversation about changing the way the office of player personnel operates, as the current method is not working all that well, especially when it comes to offense.
I voted #1.
I know what BB is, he's an elite coach and decent GM, he's had 1 actual bad year in like 25 years, he gets at least 2 before I go with 2 mystery boxes. The odds that the next coach is a better coach than Bill are.... very low. The odds the next GM is better than Bill aren't as low, but they aren't really high either, probably reasonable to expect a wash there.
I know what BB is, he's an elite coach and decent GM, he's had 1 actual bad year in like 25 years, he gets at least 2 before I go with 2 mystery boxes. The odds that the next coach is a better coach than Bill are.... very low. The odds the next GM is better than Bill aren't as low, but they aren't really high either, probably reasonable to expect a wash there.
I voted for option two but as others have said I fear BB walks if you try to take away the keys.
Gotcha, that’s fair enough. Hard to say how much has been Klemm, and how much has been lack of talent and injuries. Can’t argue Achord. I do think if Bill has time, which they should with no playoffs, and a decent pool available, I would still trust him to make sound coaching hires. I do not however, trust when him it comes to offensive personnel moves.
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I voted for 2 but am also fine with 1. I also know that 2 will probably never ever happen, so maybe I should've just answered 1.
The thread is what you want vs. what you think so you probably answered correctly according to the premise of the thread. I’m not going to cry if #1 happens but I’d go into this offseason a little nervous about BB’s execution and would hope to be proven wrong.
I voted to keep Belichick in his current position. I personally think people make a way bigger deal about Belichick being GM than is frankly warranted. The typical structure is that the personnel department generally has power over the coaching staff. The structure Belichick negotiated for was for the coaching staff to have power over personnel. I think ultimately what that means is Belichick only has to answer to the owner and he essentially has veto rights over personnel moves. He gets to avoid being stuck with a guy like Manziel as his QB and fired when the guy he never wanted is a total bust.
Ultimately, I think that set up makes way more sense in the NFL on a lot of levels. However, I think Bill O’Brien’s time in Houston is a great example of why it is not more common. Personnel moves have multiyear impacts on organizations and a coach can sometimes be shortsighted. Hence why most organizations try to shoot for situations where the two sides are more on level playing fields and the GM and coaches fates are intertwined (Mcdaniels and Ziegler: hired together and fired together).
Ultimately, I think that set up makes way more sense in the NFL on a lot of levels. However, I think Bill O’Brien’s time in Houston is a great example of why it is not more common. Personnel moves have multiyear impacts on organizations and a coach can sometimes be shortsighted. Hence why most organizations try to shoot for situations where the two sides are more on level playing fields and the GM and coaches fates are intertwined (Mcdaniels and Ziegler: hired together and fired together).
Option 2 with the caveat that there is virtually no way this will ever come to pass. Why Bill would give up the power at this point but stay as coach is beyond me. But it would be the best case scenario.
I've been trying to bridge the gap between "Do your job" and Belichick having like ten responsibilities for years. Expecting to have final say on all personnel as well as leading the coaching org is like a safety who's simultaneously blitzing and trying to cover the deep zone. You can't do both. The fact that he doesn't see this as an issue is why I voted 4 - let him micromanage somewhere else, bring his merry band of yes men, and start over with a fresh perspective.
#2. Although “strong” is probably not the way Bill would care to see it.
As frustrated as I’ve been, Bill’s 20 year run of unparalleled success still carries a ton of weight with me. I’d be fine with giving him one more shot to turn the franchise around next year. With the caveat that he’s gotta let a GM come in and help significantly, especially with the O.
I watched a lot of Pats football prior to 2001. It’s no big deal to give him another season. We’re going to move on eventually. It doesn’t need to be a rush.
As frustrated as I’ve been, Bill’s 20 year run of unparalleled success still carries a ton of weight with me. I’d be fine with giving him one more shot to turn the franchise around next year. With the caveat that he’s gotta let a GM come in and help significantly, especially with the O.
I watched a lot of Pats football prior to 2001. It’s no big deal to give him another season. We’re going to move on eventually. It doesn’t need to be a rush.
The media. I mean BB is never going to say it but it seems like the media figures that know BB the best say it’s something he wants. There’s enough smoke here to think there’s probably a fire.
I mean... yes you can, in fact he can, we know because he did it for more than 2 decades and it was the best results any franchise has ever had
Personally, I can spend a lot of time complaining about Bill’s offense building (or lack there of) while also being fine with Bill getting one last shot to fix it.
To your point, Bill Cowher stated pretty emphatically in a recent interview that he thinks BB wants the record. See the below clip starting at the 5:50 mark. He’s good friends with Bill, and even tries to qualify his take, presumably to give Bill plausible deniability - it’s a pretty credible source.
View: https://youtu.be/_XVVT6CGLzk?si=FZ7ZSd6sRimBRLw5
I doubt Bill cares so much about the record that he would coach until he dies in the chair after years of lingering while operating at a standard he deems subpar, but I think he very much cares about the record as a student of the game’s history.
As to this poll, what is more interesting is, if option 2 isn’t possible, how would people who voted for option 2 vote? The ‘All Bill or No Bill’ dilemma is the game here, and I frankly think option 2 gives folks an unrealistic escape hatch from facing the real question. I just don’t see how you ignore or wish cast Bill’s willingness to give up ultimate personnel authority when selecting an answer, but I think some folks have done that.
I vaccillated between 1 and 2 before choosing 1. The problem with 2 is the new gm having "final say. "
My real choice would be 1.5, with Kraft forcing Bill to hire an assistant gm from outside the organization with "significant say" in the final roster and draft decisions.
My real choice would be 1.5, with Kraft forcing Bill to hire an assistant gm from outside the organization with "significant say" in the final roster and draft decisions.
He had a quarterback named Tom Brady who made up for a lot of his mishits. He also, for a lot of the run, had people like Ernie Adams and Dante Scarnecchia who were voices that he respected and also filled in the gaps that maybe he wasn't good at (considering the Patriots have never been able to find an even average offensive line coach in Scar's absence). There were a lot of people involved with that 20 year run, many of the best and smartest have left the org, and BB has not capably backfilled them.
It's great that BB was the leader when they won all those titles, but he can't do it alone going forward and IMO it seems like he thinks he can.
Maybe? But that's not really relevant to your statement that you can't be the coach and have final personnel say, you very obviously can, we've seen it succeed for a very long time.
I'm voting #4. I've seen enough in the last 4 years that it is over for BB. He's not going to win another division title, might not even win another playoff game and he for sure isn't going to get to an AFC title game or even a Super Bowl let alone win it. The roster is in such horrendous shape and that is his doing over the past 4 seasons. There is hardly a lick of high end talent on this roster and frankly this team is years away from being anywhere near the top of the AFC again. They have the bare minimum of picks in the upcoming draft with 7. They should have been major sellers at the deadline even if the return was 5th rounders or below on players. They need to picks to rebuild this roster. The fact is BB is holding this franchise hostage now. The coaching has been so poor the past two season as the coaching staff under him is absolutely pathetic with his kids, friends of Bill, free coaches, running things. The offense is in the stone age of how the game is played today and BB still won't adapt to value skill position players. I just want a clean break from him as the next Patriots era needs to take place.
It seems pretty relevant when the people supporting him coaching and on the personnel side aren't as capable as they were previously. But I'll amend my statement if you want to say "this iteration of Bill Belichick can't do it" and I think that because he has way more responsibilities than he had at any point in the last 20 years.
This was my point as well. I think there needs to be another option (1b) where he stays in both capacities and they strengthen the talent in the FO.
The lowest-scoring offenses in the NFL are the Giants, Pats, and Raiders. What is the connection between these teams?
My .02 is that BB is 71 year old dude who has managed to have success for a long time because of his ability to adapt and adjust. He may be slow but I find it hard to believe he has been at this so long by always doing the same thing. I obviously think he is still capable.
I also have little faith that this job will get a ton of interest from the best candidates. The rebuild is probably harder than, say, Jacksonville. I am guessing the next regime will want a completely blank slate and yet the pressure/expectations to succeed will be immense.
In short, we may end up with a long fallow period regardless but to me BB is still the guy who gives the franchise the best shot to contend sooner but that may well be wrong.
I also have little faith that this job will get a ton of interest from the best candidates. The rebuild is probably harder than, say, Jacksonville. I am guessing the next regime will want a completely blank slate and yet the pressure/expectations to succeed will be immense.
In short, we may end up with a long fallow period regardless but to me BB is still the guy who gives the franchise the best shot to contend sooner but that may well be wrong.
I think losing Brady, Ernie and Scar and natural aging has taken its toll on BB. He may still be a great head coach and a great defensive mind, but his organizational moves and team building/recreation the past several years has been sub par. While I would love to see him pass Shula as a Pat, unless there is some positive momentum to hang onto it may be time to move on at least as BB as GM/ POFO. But I'm not sure he would work as a subordinate to anyone other than Kraft.
Daniel Jones, Mac Jones, and Jimmy Garropollo.
Daniel Jones was brought in before Daboll was coach, and had his best season under Daboll last year.
Voted #1. Some of the convo here seems to presume BB is frequently overruling the scouting folks and taking his own players. I think this is highly unlikely, though I'm sure it happens from time to time. What's more likely is that he's merely accepting the arguments made by scouting in favor of the players they end up drafting or signing. The upshot is they need better scouting.
Note: Not arguing BB is a stellar GM.
Note: Not arguing BB is a stellar GM.
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Somewhat to this point, I can’t see many folks lining up to (i) follow in Belichick’s footsteps and (ii) do it without a QB or a clear path to a franchise QB. We all saw how hard it was for someone to follow Brady. I think the evidence is pretty clear to this point that QB is the most important position in the organization, but the rest of the pieces separate good from championship caliber.
Rodgers vs. Brady
I picked 3 and most of you did not so it seems like we are all on the same page as far as that goes.