Is there more than corner OF'ers to seek out power? of course. Is it the most logical place to seek out power (along with 1B), of course it is. But outdated?, hardlly.Snodgrass'Muff said:
Red Sox Deadline Discussion
- Thread starter soxhop411
- Start date
Rasputin said:
We NEED to cash in on some pitching prospects plus 2B/SS/3B prospects now. We are top heavy with prospects and should dump them while we can (between now and the start of next season) before we end up with another Michael Bowden.
TomRicardo said:
Wrong Tommy. Remember how we suffered when Andy Marte started raking? Remember, if a prospect is in the Boston system, they are a virtual lock. Why would the Sox ever consider trading them for a proven, MVP-caliber talent in Tulo (or Stanton and his horrible legs should he be made available). Plus, what would a generation of prospect-lovers do if their pin-ups were in other organizations?
As the resident Rox fan on this board, I have to agree. The Rockies have plenty of outfielders, Kyle Parker for 1B, Nolan Aranado for 3B, and they like WIllin Rosario behind the dish. If they traded Tulo (and I don't think they would unless the Sox blew them away with an offer), they would have to get a SS back because they don't have one behind Tulo.MakMan44 said:
X, one of the catchers, and probably 2 of the Sox top line pitchers is what it would take to make the Rox even listen.
The goal is to win the world series as many times as possible before we die. If we get a lot of good seasons out of Workman/de la Rosa/Barnes/Ranaudo/Webster/Owens/Johnson/Wright I'm really not going to give a shit if some of them turn into pumpkins.TomRicardo said:
I'm not opposed to trading them mind you, and there are eight names on that list and probably not right jobs for them, but insurance is a good thing even if you don't use it.
Sox and Rocks said:
They have LaMahieu and Rutledge with Story and Herrara in the minors. They have absolutely no lefties in their system and Matzuk in their rotation (de la Rosa is going to be traded and Morales is more of a swing man). I am not saying the Rockies would not take Xander but I doubt the Red Sox would trade both Xander and Owens for anyone. Given the choice I would imagine the Rockies take Owens.
Why not just sign Hanley Ramirez and keep all the young talent?
I like me some Tulo but I wouldn't give up 4 good pieces for the right to pay an often-injured player 20 million a year for the next 6 years.
I like me some Tulo but I wouldn't give up 4 good pieces for the right to pay an often-injured player 20 million a year for the next 6 years.
Hanley is a butcher in the field. Tulo is one of the best defensive SS in the game.Hee Sox Choi said:
And tulo is a superior hitter. Tulo is one year older.
Since the start of 2010 games played tulo: 524, hanley: 559. War (fangraphs) tulo: 23.4, hanley: 15.5
How much is Hanley projected to sign for? I have no idea really, but I would guess it's more than the 130 mill. that Tulo is owed.
They have Flande and Friedrich, and Matzek (who you already pointed out), so that's three lefties that have been part of the rotation this year and may be moving forward.TomRicardo said:
LeMahieu is entrenched at 2nd. I don't think they view Rutledge as an everyday shortstop. Not sure if they view Herrera as one.
I still think they would want Boegarts as the centerpiece, along with catching and an arm or two. Not only would they have a need for a SS by trading Tulo, from a public relations standpoint they would need to replace him with an immediate piece rather than a lotto ticket, and Boegarts could immediately step in. Even then, I don't think they would take the PR hit by trading Tulo.
I'm' curious: do the sell-half-the-farm proposals contemplate extending Lester? If they do, that's understandable. If they don't I have a hard time reconciling, on the one hand, gleefully committing $120 to a player > 30, oft injured, why declining to make a similar commitment to an ace of the same vintage who has been healthier -- especially since you're dealing half of your margin for error on the pitching side.
Tuli is not bringing a championship by himself without first rate pitching. It's hard to remember now, but it took this franchise decades to learn this.
Tuli is not bringing a championship by himself without first rate pitching. It's hard to remember now, but it took this franchise decades to learn this.
I would advocate both, but you're neglecting to point out:dcmissle said:
-Tulo is 10 months younger than Lester
-Pitchers age differently than hitters, and tend to age worse
-Tulo is likely the best SS in the majors and it's not particularly close. Since 2011 he has 17.6 fWAR and the 2nd-place SS Peralta has 13.8. Lester is not the best starter in the majors.
-It is more difficult to find a great SS than a top-20 starter
-Tulo is very likely to cost less than Lester (if he didn't, Lester would probably already be signed).
So just a few differences.
I was listening the the MLB network the other day and the hosts were speculating about a Tulowitski trade. They felt the Mets were the most likely takers since they have so many pitchers to offer and need desperately to build a team around their pitching. These guys felt that the Mets would be willing to offer two pitchers from among the stable of Wheeler, Syndergaard, Harvey, Gee, Niese, and a few others I'm not remembering. But it seemed to them that it would take that level offer for the Rockies to even think about giving him up.
It's not being discussed much around here, if at all. Tulo hasn't made any public demands. The only speculation comes from one somewhat ambiguous report. So, no. Not yet, anwyay.MakMan44 said:
I'm pleased you're advocating both because the premise of a Tulo trade can't be, we're going to suck for a few years but then get really good. His age precludes that.Toe Nash said:
Not does such an approach reasonably accommodate, we'll sign Masterson to mix in with the kids - and, by the way, start spinning off relief pitchers in "value" deals at the deadline, as some are advocating. Put differently, to go into next year expecting,
1. Sub-prime FA starting pitcher to carry the load with the kids (half of whom we are dealing):
2. Strong development by young positional players; plus
3. Filling other holes people seem anxious to create for "value"
strikes me as several bridges too far.
Earlier in the thread was a quote from Tulo where he spoke of Helton, how little Helton experienced the playoffs, and how he (Tulo) did not want to be that guy in 10 years. Said he wanted a chance at the playoffs every year.Sox and Rocks said:
That sounds like a pretty clear public statement.
Here it is:
There has been lots of talk around Denver that Tulowitzki wants to leave in order to get a chance at a ring. This quote is from a recent article in the Denver Post:
"In Todd Helton, there's someone who's easy to look at his career here and how it played out. I have the utmost respect for Todd, but at the same time, I don't want to be the next in line as somebody who was here for a long time and didn't have a chance to win every single year," said Tulowitzki, reviewing the 17 years Helton spent as the face of a franchise that never won a division title. "He played in a couple postseason games and went to one World Series. But that's not me. I want to be somewhere where there's a chance to be in the playoffs every single year."
http://www.denverpos...-ok-trade-winds
It begs the question, if both Tulo and Stanton are available - who is the one you go with?
/spitballing
/spitballing
Stanton... fills a void without creating another and is on the correct side of 30.SoxFanInPdx said:
Will there be 2 or 3 major needs to fill for 2015.
In my order of importance...
1) Lester and Lackey
2) Outfield/premium bat
3) SS
SoxFanInPdx said:
Depends on the talent price, doesn't it?
The obvious argument for Tulowitzki is that his contract is so team-friendly. Of course that will also keep his talent price relatively high.
The obvious argument for Stanton is that he's younger, he has more power, and we need OFs more than IFs. I'm not sure I buy that last bit, though. Converting an infielder with mobility and a good arm to an outfielder is a pretty standard move; it just has to be an infielder with offense that you can carry in the OF. I would think that any of Tulowitzki, Bogaerts, Cecchini (if he gets over his current hump) or WMB (ditto) could conceivably be a candidate for such conversion; we've already done it with Betts. So I don't think the idea that we're going to have a logjam in the infield and no outfielders is really that big an issue. The only infield prospect close to the majors that pretty clearly would have to stay in the infield is Marrero.
Of course, "none of the above" is a very viable (and likely) option.
SoxFanInPdx said:
This is one of the most amusing misuses of "begs the question" I've seen on this site. If you meant to poke fun at the way people tend to use it, bravo.
That said, if I had to go with one or the other and the cost was the same, I'd go with Stanton. That seems like an easy answer. If you take acquisition cost and contract status into account, that's more difficult. Trading for Stanton means you have to be pretty confident you can extend him and even if you are, you are going to pay a lot more for him over the next 6 years than you would for Tulo. Despite that, I think trading for Stanton this winter (or even now) would cost more in prospects, but neither will be cheap.
I'd love to see the Sox extend Lester, trade for one of the two of Tulo and Stanton and cash in on both Koji and Lackey for some high level prospects. Those moves would mostly be so closely related, however, that it's unlikely it plays out that way. Extending Lester needs to happen before you can trade away a bunch of pitching prospects for a stud hitter, or cashing in on Lackey's option year. I think trading Koji is probably a smart thing to do either way as he is almost certainly not a long term piece for this club and could fetch a nice return from a contending team.
Sox and Rocks said:
Flande and Friedrich would not even be the Red Sox top 25 prospects. Hell Flande is a 28 YO with no track record or control. Matzek is wild as all hell and probably never be more than a back of the rotation guy if he doesn't completely flame out Bard style.
The Rockies desperately need pitching. They can't get free agents to go there without overpaying and they have nothing besides Gray and Butler in their system. Trading Tulo for a bunch of pitchers is the only way they can start crawling out of the hole they dug themselves into.
I agree they might not want to take the PR hit though. However If I were the Rockies GM, I would be taking Doubront, Owens, Ranaudo, Marrero, and Rijo in a cocaine heartbeat for Tulo. I would then use the money to try grab a front line starter.
MakMan44 said:
I think that is a somewhat delusional statement, very over-optimistic at the least. They've already stripped some of their best prospects from the minors and they have yet to live up too expectations in the majors. Bogaerts not only stopped hitting but he couldn't hold onto the shortstop job; Bradley, Jr., has had a lot of problems a the plate (but perhaps is finding the light); Betts is a second baseman playing the outfield (and it shows). Webster has yet to be called up even though both de la Rosa and Workman have. Cecchini hasn't adapted to Triple-A pitching and hasn't shown the power wanted from a third baseman.Matt Barnes is not having a good year in Triple-A. Owens and Swihart have a ways to go. Marrero has to show his Triple-A bat is real. Ranaudo's numbers look good but for whatever reason he didn't get a call-up. Oh, I forgot Vazquez...can he hit?
The parent club has no power; their outfielders have combined for 12 home runs in 1137 plate appearances and when Ortiz hangs it up, they'll have even less. And they don't have replacements in the minors to provide power. The Red Sox are in a position where they can sell off some stars that have reached the age of 30, or so, and rebuild the parts of their system that are lacking. They have at least two starting players who would bring back a big return in young players/prospects and get things back in balance. After that, they ahve the money to go after free agent players. So, there are a couple of lean years. I think will be anyway if they end up going with a patchwork lineup like they have had this year.
Why would he be at 1B long term? He was drafted as a SS and quickly moved over to 3B where he was considered a potentially plus fielder. His entire time coming up through the farm his defense was always considered more than good enough to remain at 3B, and that included his first ML call up. He's also always been cited as a very good athlete including having a very strong arm.RetractableRoof said:
If he isn't the 3B long term and stays with this team I think he's far more likely to find a home in an outfield corner than as the 1B man. The club has some 1B options staggered nicely through multiple levels. Until Perkins and Margot are ready the farm is pretty bare on worthwhile OFs.
I don't think going into 2015 with Middlebrooks replacing Gomes as the RH side of the LF platoon while he works to re-establish himself is a pretty good fit. He could also then be something of a super sub at 3B, 1B, DH, and maybe 2B. Of course, how many of those spots he can play depends largely on how Brock Holt, Cecchini, etc. all play the rest of the season (not to mention Middlebrooks himself).
Just because they're not panning out immediately in the bigs doesn't make my statement false or delusional. Their prospects are still largely located in AAA and AA, are they not?OttoC said:
EDIT: Also, it completely ignores the context in which I wrote that. Even if you want to argue that you can always use more upper level prospects, the farm isn't so devoid of them that the Red Sox would consider trading Pedey to refill it.
The PR hit part of the Tulo conversation is interesting since the owner is doing no favors here in Denver lately by writing to fans saying "maybe Denver fans don't deserve a team here" and what not.
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/07/10/rockies-owner-maybe-denver-doesnt-deserve-a-franchise/
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/07/10/rockies-owner-maybe-denver-doesnt-deserve-a-franchise/
1. Bogaerts didn't lose the SS job, they brought in Drew because WMB got hurt. Up until then it was Bogaerts at SS full steam ahead.OttoC said:
2. Young guys take a while to adjust to ML pitching. Bogaerts, Bradley, and Betts are going through that. Given how consistently they all hit in the minors it is pretty damn unlikely they're all going to be ~.600 OPS MLers.
3. Webster and Ranaudo haven't been called up because Workman (the oldest of the bunch) and De La Rosa (second oldest, putting together the best AAA season at the time) have both done damn fine work at the ML level. Webster's 2014 is a huge step forward from his 2013 in terms of controlling his arsenal and getting deeper in games. Ranaudo is now far enough removed from his up and down seasons to be a legit mid to front end starter potential prospect.
4. Marrero and Vazquez are both considered elite defensive players at key defensive positions already. They can be pretty weak with the stick and still be valuable additions. Both have been doing quite well offensively in the minors so far this year too.
5. Swihart and Owens have about 12 months to go. Both just got named in the top 25 prospects in all of baseball.
6. Cecchini just hit his first rough patch in his entire mL career. It has come at AAA at 23, after spending only 66 games at AA the year before. They've moved him up aggressively, he's hit his first snag. Way too early to write him off based on that alone.
7. Barnes is dubious, I'll agree with you there, though I think he's a future reliever where his lack of quality 3rd and 4th pitches will be much better hidden.
As for power:
Travis Shaw is starting to show the pop one would expect from a 1B with his build. Middlebrooks is still only 25 and under team control for a long time to come. Bogaerts obviously has good power projection. Blake Swihart has seen a significant uptick in his power production this year with the same number of home runs in 73 games this year than he hit in 195 combined games from his first two pro seasons. Bryce Brentz has had trouble staying healthy but has legitimate big league power. Meanwhile multiple intriguing options are in the low minors, including Rafael Devers who has the potential to move up very quickly.
The club is patchwork this year because it wasn't a good FA market for their needs and they stuck by their guns for 2014 being a break in year for young talent. 2015 might be one of those years as well, depending on how Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts, etc. put it together the rest of this season, but by then the wave of AA/AAA guys will be up and ML tested.
I would much rather see them move some of the mL depth for Stanton this winter than one of the 30 year old stars on the current club. They have more prospects than roster spots, so something needs to give sooner than later anyhow.
Their up-the-middle prospects should be (are) fantastic defensively right now. They have others (Betts, Cecchini) who should be good contact hitters at the MLB level at least. Bogaerts projects as a middle order bat.
Seriously, they just need 2 of their pitching prospects to get close to their ceilings, keep most of their prospects healthy, and hope X develops. That happens, and all they'd need to obtain is one young and proven power bat - Stanton or someone comparable. They've got enough prospects to do that.
They'll always have the money to buy complementary players. This isn't wishcasting. The Sox are primed to reload, not rebuild.
Seriously, they just need 2 of their pitching prospects to get close to their ceilings, keep most of their prospects healthy, and hope X develops. That happens, and all they'd need to obtain is one young and proven power bat - Stanton or someone comparable. They've got enough prospects to do that.
They'll always have the money to buy complementary players. This isn't wishcasting. The Sox are primed to reload, not rebuild.
This sounds like someone we should grab for at least minor league depth:
The Cardinals have designated outfielder Mike O’Neill for assignment, according to the MLB.com transactions page. Presumably, the move was made to clear roster space for the recently-claimed George Kottaras.
O’Neill, 26, was added to the 40-man before the season started to protect him from the Rule 5 draft. He has yet to see MLB action, and has only 163 career plate appearances at the Triple-A level, where he owns a .297/.401/.341 line. Across 796 Double-A plate appearances over the last several years. O’Neill has slashed .306/.407/.382.
Needless to say, his calling card is on-base ability; last season, he reached 91 times via walk while striking out just 37 times. That prompted Baseball America’s Ben Badler to tweet that O’Neill had the best eye in the minors.
The Cardinals have designated outfielder Mike O’Neill for assignment, according to the MLB.com transactions page. Presumably, the move was made to clear roster space for the recently-claimed George Kottaras.
O’Neill, 26, was added to the 40-man before the season started to protect him from the Rule 5 draft. He has yet to see MLB action, and has only 163 career plate appearances at the Triple-A level, where he owns a .297/.401/.341 line. Across 796 Double-A plate appearances over the last several years. O’Neill has slashed .306/.407/.382.
Needless to say, his calling card is on-base ability; last season, he reached 91 times via walk while striking out just 37 times. That prompted Baseball America’s Ben Badler to tweet that O’Neill had the best eye in the minors.
Drew, Koji, whoever else isn't under contract for 2015 (assuming the .400 OBPing OF is still deemed to be worth a spot and those FAs aren't resigned)Papelbon's Poutine said:
ji oh said:
But we already have Hassan and he's not new, and shiny. Seriously though, Hassan is on a wicked tear since going back to Pawtucket. I wonder if he picked up any tricks during his short trip to the big club. Seems like a 4th or 5th outfielder type, but who knows with some guys. He's got the strike zone judgement to where the light could come on and he could build up some power and be a fringe to decent starter or better.
Call me crazy. But let's see how the team does over the next 10 days before Koji or Drew goes on the market. Something happened with this team when AJP was designated. He wasn't the only problem by any means but I wouldn't be in a rush to trade anyone yet including Peavy.Boggs26 said:
For them to realistically have a shot they need to be within 5 games of a wild card spot by the trade deadline. They can reach that. If they're still 8 then sell.
I think we should make decisions based on the division and not the wild card. Being within striking distance by the deadline would almost require winning every game betwixt now and then. And even if that happens, we should trade Peavy. I'm pretty sure we can do better with the kids.Tyrone Biggums said:
I doubt there is any piece they have, with the possible exception of Koji, who wouldn't pass through waivers after July 31. Maybe, maybe, Miller. But Drew is one of those guys who is going through waivers without any hitch at all. So the deadline really isn't all the crucial to decision making, at least not on the selling end.
Maybe, maybe not. Realistically there are replacements for both Koji and Drew already on the 40 man - X, Holt, WMB (pushing X back to ss), and then all the pitching in AAA and AA. It's also likely that others are removed from the lineup if FAs are added - Peavy trade, Ross traded or DFAd Victorino traded if healthy by the off-season, etc.Papelbon said:
I really think they ought to use some of their organizational depth to make a trade this offseason. Either a starter to bolster the rotation or a slugging outfielder.Papelbon's Poutine said:
I'm not sure people really have the patience to wait through 2-3 years of growing pains. If we've got a healthy Vic, and Lester is retained etc we'd have a decent shot to compete in 2015.
Why worry about that now when they have the open spot, though? If he's just clogging up a spot when they want it for something else later, they can DFA him, too. Or, they could find out they like him better than someone else who's clogging up a roster spot and DFA that guy instead. Am I missing something in not seeing what the risk is in picking up practically anyone who doesn't cost anything when there's an opening on the 40 man?
Just hoping to luck into getting something for nothing that could end up being useful is all. It's not like it would be the first time a waiver claim turned into more than you'd expect.
Please put any trade rumors in red font.
It will make reading this thread quicker.
Thank you in advance.
It will make reading this thread quicker.
Thank you in advance.
BosRedSox5 said:
Which people?
Mind you, I don't want to wait 2-3 years before we contend again, but I'd take that if the payoff is that we are a perennial contender for the next decade or more.
I mean, fer the luvva Pete, we waited 86 years, and now we can't wait two?
There might be a team with deeper pockets who may be able spend a bit more on a shortstop and may need one after this season. I don't think it's that easy.Hee Sox Choi said: