The Cardinal in the Computer System
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
I was listening to WFAN this morning on the way in to work. They briefly mentioned this topic but quickly moved on because "nobody cares."
Boswell pulling no punches. Opening sentence of today's column:
And of course the requisite comparisons to the Patriots:
He's also on point about the potential value of what the Cardinals stole.
And of course the requisite comparisons to the Patriots:
He's also on point about the potential value of what the Cardinals stole.
FOR THE LAST TIME, THE PATRIOTS DIDN'T TAPE ANY PRACTICES.
Christ. The narrative is always wrong.
Christ. The narrative is always wrong.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I think he's referring to the accusations that they taped the Rams' walkthrough at the Super Bowl. True or not, I think it's fair to mention, especially since the context is "that was all silly stuff that didn't really matter".
moondog80 said:
There were never accusations, there was one article by John Tomase that he retracted, and apologized/genuflected to Kraft for. He was moved from Patriots coverage shortly thereafter. Nobody taped a walkthrough and/or a practice. Well, except the Broncos. I'm sure many others have done it and not been caught, as well.
The Cardinals story has already fallen from the top of ESPN. We'll see if it sticks, I assume there will at least be other triggers in the process that will make it a big deal again.
Boswell is premature at best, horribly wrong at worst. but he likes to pontificate, so I am not surprised.
I will grant that the Cards are getting a benefit not extended to the Pats, the benefit of the doubt. Kurkjian was kid gloves on DC radio this morning.
But right is right, and just because your team has gotten screwed does not mean that the same treatment should be extended to others. People should be careful with this, especially given Manfred's cautionary note yesterday.
I will grant that the Cards are getting a benefit not extended to the Pats, the benefit of the doubt. Kurkjian was kid gloves on DC radio this morning.
But right is right, and just because your team has gotten screwed does not mean that the same treatment should be extended to others. People should be careful with this, especially given Manfred's cautionary note yesterday.
Olney was similar in his write up today. It just confirms what many have already said about Deflategate. It's solely because the team to be the pinata was the Pats. I mean this is the FBI. Dewitt is the Kraft of MLB. The cocktail of ingredients is really volatile for all the benefit of the doubt they're getting. Then again maybe baseball has more responsible mouth piece operation in comparison to Mort and Kravitz for the NFL.dcmissle said:
There is a whole forum to talk handegg!
And the reason WFAN thinks "nobody cares" is that they consider every team not NY or Boston to be the Washington Generals of baseball.
And the reason WFAN thinks "nobody cares" is that they consider every team not NY or Boston to be the Washington Generals of baseball.
Caution is warranted. We don't know the extent or duration of the snooping, and most importantly we don't know how far up the chain of command this went in the Cardinals' organization.
The prospects are pretty good for finding out the answers. Forensics will easily answer the first; the feds have the threat of criminal prosecution to force answers to the second -- I don't think anyone would be willing to go to prison to protect Dewitt or anybody else.
So why not wait for the answers before going nuts.
This is my nightmare as an owner of a team. This crap has been going on for ages on the corporate side, and it was naïve to believe that it would not extend to pro sports given the money and stakes. An organization is only as strong as its weakest employee capable of doing harm.
I'm not prejudging, but it's easy to see how a young person seeking to make his mark would do this on his own. If I'm Bob Kraft, I call every effing employee into a meeting and say, don't even think about going there. I scrub the whole organization and make sure no meatheads are on the payroll.
If this were to happen to the Pats, even if it were not blessed by a person in authority, it would be death penalty time.
The prospects are pretty good for finding out the answers. Forensics will easily answer the first; the feds have the threat of criminal prosecution to force answers to the second -- I don't think anyone would be willing to go to prison to protect Dewitt or anybody else.
So why not wait for the answers before going nuts.
This is my nightmare as an owner of a team. This crap has been going on for ages on the corporate side, and it was naïve to believe that it would not extend to pro sports given the money and stakes. An organization is only as strong as its weakest employee capable of doing harm.
I'm not prejudging, but it's easy to see how a young person seeking to make his mark would do this on his own. If I'm Bob Kraft, I call every effing employee into a meeting and say, don't even think about going there. I scrub the whole organization and make sure no meatheads are on the payroll.
If this were to happen to the Pats, even if it were not blessed by a person in authority, it would be death penalty time.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
Ed Hillel said:
Well, if you don't want to watch this go quietly into the night, you should revel in some Drew Magary-freude. There's this on-topic rant from yesterday, which is pretty good.
But even better than that is this gem of a Fire Joe Morgan-esque takedown of the pompous, ridiculous Mayor of St Louis, who somehow is named "Francis Slay". Sure, it's from last October, but he gets worked up into a fine rage, and there's crossover appeal.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
He wasn't necessarily referring to the Patriots: http://www.denverpost.com/ci_16725992
singaporesoxfan said:
While it's a nice thought exercise to remember the actual team that did that, no national reporter who off-handedly brings up video taping practices is talking about the Broncos. It's not something that has stuck with them nationally. And if they are talking about the Broncos, it's almost certainly an attempt to bring it back to the Patriots, as McDaniels was coach at the time. Let's be realistic here.
I think you can read that to refer to the various times worrying about videotaping practices has been an issue (and as pointed out above, the worrying certainly existed with regards to the Pats, even if it was based on a false report), but in any case, in the context of that line, Boswell - who I think is the best national writer on baseball outside of Posnanski - is talking about how infinitesimally minor all of these supposed "cheating" issues are compared to what the Cardinals are accused of. Which is absolutely true.
That was like watching someone strike out at tee-ball.BigSoxFan said:
After all the sanctimonious shit the Cardinals fans and players have given LAD for "not playing the game the right way" because they appear to have fun on a baseball field this scandal is a gift from heaven for Dodgers fans and writers and he missed all that in favor of the dumbest angle possible.
We should loan them Shank. And by loan I mean give permanently.
Better
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-st-louis-cardinals-houston-astros-fbi-hacking-investigation/
4. This is the opposite of a normal baseball scandal: It actually matters from a legal perspective.
Unlike the congressional hearings on steroids 10 years ago, the government’s involvement here isn’t federal overreach. Much as we all like to think that pro sports exist in their own legal bubble, this alleged breach will be considered corporate espionage if proved. It’s the kind of invasion that, if one government did it to another, would constitute an act of aggression. And while ESPN legal analyst Lester Munson seems to think the breach will remain in the bubble of sports, NBC’s Craig Calcaterra, himself a lawyer, notes that whoever broke into the Astros’ system could be charged with violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. We know about the leak of internal discussions from Houston’s network, called Ground Control, last year, but what if more sensitive information got out? Proprietary data or statistical models? Medical data on players? That’s no-longer-joking-around territory.
5. Those stakes are going to make it tough to get some intern or IT guy to take the fall.
We don’t yet know who in the Cardinals organization actually infiltrated Ground Control, whether GM John Mozeliak knew about the breach at any point, or if he or someone else we’ve heard of actually ordered it. Baseball-Reference’s Sean Forman posited that the rogue-low-level-employee theory might actually be the most likely scenario, while Yahoo’s Jeff Passan finds it harder to believe that upper management didn’t actually know about this. I have no idea which is the case.
Ordinarily, we’d expect someone relatively low on the food chain to take the fall for this. But if the Cardinals have to deal with Johnny Law instead of just MLB, which has an obvious PR and financial incentive to minimize this story, it’ll be more difficult to get an intern or an analyst to roll over and take jail time to save his boss. I’d sell out my boss in a second under those circumstances, and so would most of you.
While all of that is extremely serious, though, it’s not unamusing to picture some 24-year-old database analyst seated at an aluminum table in a room with one bare lightbulb, telling federal agents that he’d rather die than talk. Just because investigators say the Cardinals committed egregious violations of both ethical and legal standards doesn’t mean we can’t write cheesy noir dialogue along the way.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-st-louis-cardinals-houston-astros-fbi-hacking-investigation/
4. This is the opposite of a normal baseball scandal: It actually matters from a legal perspective.
Unlike the congressional hearings on steroids 10 years ago, the government’s involvement here isn’t federal overreach. Much as we all like to think that pro sports exist in their own legal bubble, this alleged breach will be considered corporate espionage if proved. It’s the kind of invasion that, if one government did it to another, would constitute an act of aggression. And while ESPN legal analyst Lester Munson seems to think the breach will remain in the bubble of sports, NBC’s Craig Calcaterra, himself a lawyer, notes that whoever broke into the Astros’ system could be charged with violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. We know about the leak of internal discussions from Houston’s network, called Ground Control, last year, but what if more sensitive information got out? Proprietary data or statistical models? Medical data on players? That’s no-longer-joking-around territory.
5. Those stakes are going to make it tough to get some intern or IT guy to take the fall.
We don’t yet know who in the Cardinals organization actually infiltrated Ground Control, whether GM John Mozeliak knew about the breach at any point, or if he or someone else we’ve heard of actually ordered it. Baseball-Reference’s Sean Forman posited that the rogue-low-level-employee theory might actually be the most likely scenario, while Yahoo’s Jeff Passan finds it harder to believe that upper management didn’t actually know about this. I have no idea which is the case.
Ordinarily, we’d expect someone relatively low on the food chain to take the fall for this. But if the Cardinals have to deal with Johnny Law instead of just MLB, which has an obvious PR and financial incentive to minimize this story, it’ll be more difficult to get an intern or an analyst to roll over and take jail time to save his boss. I’d sell out my boss in a second under those circumstances, and so would most of you.
While all of that is extremely serious, though, it’s not unamusing to picture some 24-year-old database analyst seated at an aluminum table in a room with one bare lightbulb, telling federal agents that he’d rather die than talk. Just because investigators say the Cardinals committed egregious violations of both ethical and legal standards doesn’t mean we can’t write cheesy noir dialogue along the way.
Cardinals under FBI investigation for hacking Astros
"Galileo's Revenge"
Best headline comment ever from WSJ's James Taranto.
"Galileo's Revenge"
Best headline comment ever from WSJ's James Taranto.
Ed Hillel said:
Justin Gorman with a thorough take down of Plaschke's steaming pile of an article:
http://sonsofsamhorn.com/baseball/teams/nl-central/st-louis-cardinals/bill-plaschke-is-grasping-at-straws/
Ed Hillel said:
Not to beat a dead horse some more (well, yes, precisely to do that), but seriously, if this was even *RUMORED* to have been something the Patriots did, the entire sports media world would have this front and center, 24/7.
I mean, deflate gate led the NATIONAL NEWS - not SportsCenter, but the national network news - with the deflate gate story, meaning they deemed deflate gate to be the most important story of the day. In the world. On planet earth.
Now? For something thousand times worse (especially because the hacking *actually* happened, in contrast to deflate gate), involving the FBI and Justice Departments, this thing barely registers a tick IN THE SPORTS MEDIA, never mind the national news media.
It really is incredible.
DrewDawg said:
Exactly. And I know you guys won't want to hear this, but the Cardinals aren't "repeat offenders" either. Those two things make it a completely different animal. Add in the fact that they're media darlings, vs the gruff and not exactly personable Belichick, and you have all you need to know about why this isn't blowing up.
From an outsider's perspective, I do think this is a million times worse than anything the Pats have done - or allegedly done - and I'm tickled pink that it's the Cardinals with their head in the guillotine. But I have to be honest, watching Pats fans get their knickers in a twist over the lack of outrage is the perfect cherry on the sundae.
Bosoxen - doesn't this just further prove the Pats have to play by a different set of rules / standards than everyone else? Pats fans got mocked on BBtL for making this claim, but this scandal basically 100% proves we are correct. Too bad it's not a different NFL team, then we'd have absolute proof.
Luhnow seems similarly irked about the benefit of doubt being thrown the Cardinals way via the leaks saying the intrusion wasn't sophisticated.
"That's absolutely false," Luhnow told SI.com on Wednesday. "I absolutely know about password hygiene and best practices. I'm certainly aware of how important passwords are, as well as of the importance of keeping them updated. A lot of my job in baseball, as it was in high tech, is to make sure that intellectual property is protected. I take that seriously and hold myself and those who work for me to a very high standard."
"At the time when it happened a year ago, it was like coming home and seeing your house has been broken into," Luhnow told SI.com. "You feel violated when someone does that without permission. As far as whether it affected our ability to execute our plan? It's difficult to assess the effect, but we have continued to execute our plan and we are making progress.
"I had to call the other 29 GMs and apologize that private notes our organization had made had been made public. Those were not fun calls to make. But I've made several trades since then, and I've had no problems getting anybody on the phone."
"That's absolutely false," Luhnow told SI.com on Wednesday. "I absolutely know about password hygiene and best practices. I'm certainly aware of how important passwords are, as well as of the importance of keeping them updated. A lot of my job in baseball, as it was in high tech, is to make sure that intellectual property is protected. I take that seriously and hold myself and those who work for me to a very high standard."
"At the time when it happened a year ago, it was like coming home and seeing your house has been broken into," Luhnow told SI.com. "You feel violated when someone does that without permission. As far as whether it affected our ability to execute our plan? It's difficult to assess the effect, but we have continued to execute our plan and we are making progress.
"I had to call the other 29 GMs and apologize that private notes our organization had made had been made public. Those were not fun calls to make. But I've made several trades since then, and I've had no problems getting anybody on the phone."
ivanvamp said:
You guys really need to step back off the ledge. Every sports site has a headline about this on the front page. It is a big deal. It's also baseball, not football. It's also a matter of timing, as Bosoxen pointed out. It's also not centered around a world famous, very popular player with a super model wife. Why can't this just be about the Cardinals and not a constant comparison to the Patriots?
jimbobim said:
He added "Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to take a trip back home to see my parents. Would you believe they still live on the same street where I grew up? Elm Street hasn't changed a bit. Even my childhood best friend James Smith and my high school sweetheart Jane Johnson still live there. It's a pity my first pet Fido isn't around any more."
tims4wins said:
This does nothing of the sort. You're comparing apples to hand grenades. And poorly, at that.
Good luck with that persecution complex. I hear therapy might be a good solution.
singaporesoxfan said:
You forgot the mother's maiden name to complete the set. A-
glennhoffmania said:
Everything you said may be true. It's also orders of magnitude worse, since it might land people in prison. Moreover, the hacking is KNOWN. What happened during deflate gate is that the people *thought* the Pats did something. Just the rumor of it was enough to send it into orbit. It's not any sort of persecution complex or paranoia. This is really what's happened and what's happening.
ivanvamp said:
I really don't know what's so hard to understand about the fact that this didn't happen during the run-up to the most watched sporting event on the planet. That's the only reason you saw the Deflategate coverage on mainstream media. Had it occurred in September, I guarantee you shows like the Today show wouldn't have even noticed. But by all means, blame it on the haters. That certainly seems to be the party line.
Bringing it back around to the topic at hand, you will certainly see this covered on mainstream media if and when the perpetrators start to face actual prison sentences. Particularly so if high-level members of the front office are among them.
I believe we have a media forum and a Pats forum.
Cardinals hired firm back in February to investigate.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/attorney-says-cardinals-execs-not-behind-astros-hacking/2015/06/17/35b48f5e-154f-11e5-8457-4b431bf7ed4c_story.html
Cardinals hired firm back in February to investigate.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/attorney-says-cardinals-execs-not-behind-astros-hacking/2015/06/17/35b48f5e-154f-11e5-8457-4b431bf7ed4c_story.html
ivanvamp said:
Come on, Ivan. The people accused of the acts and the main players are critical. You're comparing a situation that involved Brady, Belichick, Kraft and Goodell with FBI agents and what seems to be a couple of low-level, totally unknown Cardinal employees. Who do you think the general population is more interested in hearing about?
Oh sweet! I was hoping I could get some more of the endless Patriots cheating commentary and persecution complex in this thread about the Cardinals hacking into another team's systems. It just sucks having to look in every other thread on the board, itll be nice to know I can get it here.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
CoRP said:
I'm with you. Sports is supposed to be entertaining.
Or Stephen Colbert could crowd-fund the money to buy it as a stunt, and then run it like a comically deranged billionaire.
ivanvamp said:
Nothing is really "known" until the FBI releases the results of its investigation. There's a great chance that it happened, but saying that culpability is known is inaccurate. That's the danger of speculative journalism (as I mention in the piece The Tax Man shared above).
JohntheBaptist said:
Also, this. All day.
BigJimEd said:
Well, after 4 months of internal investigation they're not prepared to deny the involvement of anyone beneath the GM? You'd think that if it was just a rogue intern or the like that guy would have been already been put up on the cross.
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=stl
glennhoffmania said:
Right. The Patriots. The actual players in the Patriots drama were Jastremski and McNally. Brady got thrown into this because…well…..he *HAD* to have known about it right??
And of course, because of spygate.
If this was, oh, Aaron Rodgers, it doesn't get the play. You know it.
Anyway, whatever, back to the Cardinals.
And on that note, I really am super curious to see how this turns out. I bet more teams have done something like this at some point.
