The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

[sezwho]

There is SO MUCH blame to go around that I think it can be both. It takes a symphony of crap weapons, turnstile oline, and absolutely ghastly QB play to produce the turd sandwich that is the 2023 pats offense.

But I agree that if you could only fix one, I’d start with the QB.

Yeah, wow its so both.

Mac shoulda stopped Howell on that 24 yard conversion. Damn his tackling.
Mac shouldn't have lined up offsides on special teams providing a free turnover. Damn his lack of attention to detailed coaching.
Mac should have caught that perfect bomb to Reagor. Damn his lack of choosing receivers.
Mac should have known that Gesicki and Thornton are going to quit on routes. Damn Mac's work putting the game plan in.
Mac should not have hit Smith-Schuster in the hands for that pick. Damn his lack of choosing receivers. Again.

Mac is even screwing up special teams and defense now! What a loser like we would know in a sports bar!

Please. BB drafted and "developed" an immobile pocket QB and then failed epically/serially/hilariously to build a team around his limitations. Its ok to admit and doesn't change the fact Bill's past had (edit) an amazing run. the most amazing run in NFL history, cementing his place on NFL Rushmore.

 

[Jimbodandy]

There is SO MUCH blame to go around that I think it can be both. It takes a symphony of crap weapons, turnstile oline, and absolutely ghastly QB play to produce the turd sandwich that is the 2023 pats offense.

But I agree that if you could only fix one, I’d start with the QB.

If they only fix one area, we'll be having all of these same conversations next year. The OL, receivers (both TE and WR), and QB are all junk right now. The OL looks good for parts of games (looked good against Buffalo, good for parts of Washington) and then completely falls apart. The WRs have a few good plays in them every game but generally don't get open, run the wrong routes, and drop balls like they were selling popcorn pregame. The QB strings a few nice plays together on a drive and then doesn't finish the job, makes bad decisions, and throws a few wtf balls every game.

The Bruins fan answer to the problem is to bring in a new QB and declare victory. But if they don't either materially improve at two of these three areas, there will be a thread for the next QB that is many pages long.

 

[Cellar-Door]

If they only fix one area, we'll be having all of these same conversations next year. The OL, receivers (both TE and WR), and QB are all junk right now. The OL looks good for parts of games (looked good against Buffalo, good for parts of Washington) and then completely falls apart. The WRs have a few good plays in them every game but generally don't get open, run the wrong routes, and drop balls like they were selling popcorn pregame. The QB strings a few nice plays together on a drive and then doesn't finish the job, makes bad decisions, and throws a few wtf balls every game.

The Bruins fan answer to the problem is to bring in a new QB and declare victory. But if they don't either materially improve at two of these three areas, there will be a thread for the next QB that is many pages long.

Go back to the peak of the dynasty era, there are threads about why the OL is so bad, why Josh McDaniels needs to be fired (shorter, but a lot of that is BBtL was a much lower post forum back then).
People are always going to complain about something. And yes they need some fixes everywhere on offense, but QB is by far the most impactful position on the field in the NFL, even the players know it, improvement there tends to make an exponentially larger difference than anywhere else. (also they could bring back the exact same line and it would likely be improved just because injuries and inability to work together are key parts of their struggles).

 

[Old Fart Tree]

If they only fix one area, we'll be having all of these same conversations next year. The OL, receivers (both TE and WR), and QB are all junk right now. The OL looks good for parts of games (looked good against Buffalo, good for parts of Washington) and then completely falls apart. The WRs have a few good plays in them every game but generally don't get open, run the wrong routes, and drop balls like they were selling popcorn pregame. The QB strings a few nice plays together on a drive and then doesn't finish the job, makes bad decisions, and throws a few wtf balls every game.

The Bruins fan answer to the problem is to bring in a new QB and declare victory. But if they don't either materially improve at two of these three areas, there will be a thread for the next QB that is many pages long.

I think we’re in violent agreement? “If they could only fix one” is a false choice. They can and must fix all of the above. I just think the QB is the biggest most glaring area of weakness.

As for sezwho, I don’t know what to say. Other people fucking up is whataboutism that ignores the fact that Mac is in the bottom five of QBs in the league right now.

edit: I was grocery shopping, so let me clarify bottom 5 starting QBs.

 

[rodderick]

Yeah, wow its so both.

Mac shoulda stopped Howell on that 24 yard conversion. Damn his tackling.
Mac shouldn't have lined up offsides on special teams providing a free turnover. Damn his lack of attention to detailed coaching.
Mac should have caught that perfect bomb to Reagor. Damn his lack of choosing receivers.
Mac should have known that Gesicki and Thornton are going to quit on routes. Damn Mac's work putting the game plan in.
Mac should not have hit Smith-Schuster in the hands for that pick. Damn his lack of choosing receivers. Again.

Mac is even screwing up special teams and defense now! What a loser like we would know in a sports bar!

Please. BB drafted and "developed" an immobile pocket QB and then failed epically/serially/hilariously to build a team around his limitations. Its ok to admit and doesn't change the fact Bill's past had (edit) an amazing run. the most amazing run in NFL history, cementing his place on NFL Rushmore.

At this point Mac has nothing but limitations. He's not accurate or mechanically sound, he makes shit decisions every week. It's not just about the physical tools. Sure, he would play better with better players around him, he also would never maximize whatever he had around him. If Bill had invested a ton around Mac Jones, they'd likely have a very expensive "meh" offense. They need better weapons regardless of who the next QB will be, but they also need to find their next QB. Whatever you give this kid he'll extract the least out of.

And if in 4 years he is in a perfect situation and has a Geno Smith like career resurgence (which I severely doubt, Geno is more talented in every way), odds are you still won't regret moving on. The Patriots don't owe Mac Jones anything, he has failed them as much as they have failed him.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Yeah, wow its so both.

Mac shoulda stopped Howell on that 24 yard conversion. Damn his tackling.
Mac shouldn't have lined up offsides on special teams providing a free turnover. Damn his lack of attention to detailed coaching.
Mac should have caught that perfect bomb to Reagor. Damn his lack of choosing receivers.
Mac should have known that Gesicki and Thornton are going to quit on routes. Damn Mac's work putting the game plan in.
Mac should not have hit Smith-Schuster in the hands for that pick. Damn his lack of choosing receivers. Again.

Mac is even screwing up special teams and defense now! What a loser like we would know in a sports bar!

Please. BB drafted and "developed" an immobile pocket QB and then failed epically/serially/hilariously to build a team around his limitations. Its ok to admit and doesn't change the fact Bill's past had (edit) an amazing run. the most amazing run in NFL history, cementing his place on NFL Rushmore.

Not sure I'm following the point of this post. There's a lot of blame to go around, they have a poor roster and even their best players aren't really difference makers (other than maybe Gonzalez), and they play like a poorly coached team that makes a shit ton of stupid mistakes.

But everything else equal they need a new QB. It is the most important position in professional sports and the guy playing that position for the Patriots is really, really bad. They also need to fix other things but it kind of doesn't matter if they can't fix the QB position.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Yeah, wow its so both.

Mac shoulda stopped Howell on that 24 yard conversion. Damn his tackling.
Mac shouldn't have lined up offsides on special teams providing a free turnover. Damn his lack of attention to detailed coaching.
Mac should have caught that perfect bomb to Reagor. Damn his lack of choosing receivers.
Mac should have known that Gesicki and Thornton are going to quit on routes. Damn Mac's work putting the game plan in.
Mac should not have hit Smith-Schuster in the hands for that pick. Damn his lack of choosing receivers. Again.

Mac is even screwing up special teams and defense now! What a loser like we would know in a sports bar!

Please. BB drafted and "developed" an immobile pocket QB and then failed epically/serially/hilariously to build a team around his limitations. Its ok to admit and doesn't change the fact Bill's past had (edit) an amazing run. the most amazing run in NFL history, cementing his place on NFL Rushmore.

What is the “therefore” to this post?

That Mac is actually good? Is it a point about BB? (This is the Mac thread.)

I mean, I am tracking what you are saying that not everything bad that happens on the field is Mac’s fault, which I think is taken as a given. I’m just not sure where you think that gets us or what you are or are not advocating.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

+1 to RW and DDB.

 

[Super Nomario]

In Sunday's game there was a lot bad that happened that wasn't Mac's fault, and even some good plays he made where teammates let him down. But they scored only 17 points against what might be the worst defense in the league, AND Mac didn't even have much to do with the 17 points! They had a TD drive that only had to go 25 yards after a fumble recovery, a 64-yard run TD, and a FG drive where the longest gain was the worst roughing-the-passer penalty you're ever going to see.

 

[j44thor]

Gesicki runs what looks like a 3 yard hook? got doubled looked back (no way he thought Mac was throwing to him, I'm guessing to see if Mac is dumping to Stevenson and he should block?) then decides to run a flat late (with a depressing lack of urgency, seemed more about clearing a defender out of the middle and maybe being ready to block than a real attempt to present a target).

On the other side looked like the plan was for Douglasto run a whip into a 10 yard out. Henry I think was supposed to run a 5 yard out under him... but Henry just plowed into his guy for 3 yards, and either Douglas cut it too tight or something because Douglas trips over the feet of the defender Henry is pushing.

Rham is in to block then release, but he waits way too long.

Only options there were Juju or MAYBE swinging it to Rham and seeing if Gesicki can give him a lane on the sideline.

Amusingly... Gesicki for all that it looked bad and he basically was done after 3 seconds, might be the only guy other than Juju who ran his route correctly. Henry and Douglas at least 1 probably both messed up, and Rham took way too long blocking air instead of going into a route.

Though, the play is clearly designed for Juju in the middle to be the #1 option... Gesicki is holding 1 (or in this case 2) players on his side, Henry and Douglas are clearing out their guys to the right... hypothetically opening the middle for Juju. They got basically the look they wanted, Juju had a chance at it, just a bit of defense (interference arguably) and an unlucky bounce.

Yes I had posted a similar clip in a different thread. It was either or perhaps both, a terrible play design and terrible execution though they did get the look they wanted. You can't have 1 option when you are trying to get 8-10 yards with the game on the line. They had plenty of time to run any positive play and still spike the ball. I think the bigger issue is having Gesicki in there to begin with given he is both a zero as a blocker and YAC and you need one or the other in that situation. JuJu obviously needs to catch the damn ball but the play design and execution could have been so much better. Teams would typically run slants/crossers or maybe a high lo combo there, which I guess Pop/Henry were failing miserable at. The problem is you only have 2 WR at best that can run a simple slant route and get any separation, JuJu and Pop.

 

[rodderick]

In Sunday's game there was a lot bad that happened that wasn't Mac's fault, and even some good plays he made where teammates let him down. But they scored only 17 points against what might be the worst defense in the league, AND Mac didn't even have much to do with the 17 points! They had a TD drive that only had to go 25 yards after a fumble recovery, a 64-yard run TD, and a FG drive where the longest gain was the worst roughing-the-passer penalty you're ever going to see.

I also find it funny that he had very good protection all game and that's not even mentioned anymore.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yes I had posted a similar clip in a different thread. It was either or perhaps both, a terrible play design and terrible execution though they did get the look they wanted. You can't have 1 option when you are trying to get 8-10 yards with the game on the line. They had plenty of time to run any positive play and still spike the ball. I think the bigger issue is having Gesicki in there to begin with given he is both a zero as a blocker and YAC and you need one or the other in that situation. JuJu obviously needs to catch the damn ball but the play design and execution could have been so much better. Teams would typically run slants/crossers or maybe a high lo combo there, which I guess Pop/Henry were failing miserable at. The problem is you only have 2 WR at best that can run a simple slant route and get any separation, JuJu and Pop.

I think on Paper it isn't that bad. Gesicki is a bad blocker of Edge rushers but you aren't even pretending to run there, and he is actually pretty decent blocking DBs in space which is his likely role on that play if he has one. He's kind of a wasted route I agree, worst part of the design.

Henry/Pop is supposed to be I assume a high low, with Pop as the quick guy who maybe draws the safety, or having the chance to break it up field after the catch if the safety doesn't move and Henry having a size mismatch underneath. Rham would actually have gotten a free catch and then a 2v2 with him and Gesicki on 2 DBs.

So... I think the play design is fine. You just don't expect your checkdown to brainfreeze, and your 2 options on one side of the play to ruin each other's routes. This one was definitely one for the "what the hell are the passcatchers doing out there?" pile to me more than the OC pile.

 

[Auger34]

Yeah, wow its so both.

Mac shoulda stopped Howell on that 24 yard conversion. Damn his tackling.
Mac shouldn't have lined up offsides on special teams providing a free turnover. Damn his lack of attention to detailed coaching.
Mac should have caught that perfect bomb to Reagor. Damn his lack of choosing receivers.
Mac should have known that Gesicki and Thornton are going to quit on routes. Damn Mac's work putting the game plan in.
Mac should not have hit Smith-Schuster in the hands for that pick. Damn his lack of choosing receivers. Again.

Mac is even screwing up special teams and defense now! What a loser like we would know in a sports bar!

Please. BB drafted and "developed" an immobile pocket QB and then failed epically/serially/hilariously to build a team around his limitations. Its ok to admit and doesn't change the fact Bill's past had (edit) an amazing run. the most amazing run in NFL history, cementing his place on NFL Rushmore.

I get what you're going for here but I've read this entire thread and 90% of the criticisms of Mac are completely fair. I really don't see a lot of people blaming him just to blame him.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I get what you're going for here but I've read this entire thread and 90% of the criticisms of Mac are completely fair. I really don't see a lot of people blaming him just to blame him.

It's the classic move, if you read legitimate criticism of something you like for which there isn't a particularly good response because it is accurate.... "what about...." as if two things cannot be bad at the same time

 

[sezwho]

What is the “therefore” to this post?

That Mac is actually good? Is it a point about BB? (This is the Mac thread.)

I mean, I am tracking what you are saying that not everything bad that happens on the field is Mac’s fault, which I think is taken as a given. I’m just not sure where you think that gets us or what you are or are not advocating.

Thats a fair question! I'll respect the push back but reading this thread it wasn't clear at all clear everything is not Macs fault. Seriously replacing him with 'whatever an average qb is' doesn't help. Anything less than Ryan Luck would would have been smashed to a mental/physical pulp too unless they were high mobility anyway. Talking Mac in a vacuum seems vacuous : ). Since stabilizing the line with Onwenu at RT he's had one bad pick.

The rest of the team has been just as bad, with WR and ST even worse! My larger point is I believe Mac could be much better with a least average talent on the line WR and coaching and its not possible to decouple from Bill's failures as coach and GM. I don't think the thread policing is relevant here, but again, fair enough.

Yes, Mac is bottom of the league right now and making pennies for it. He could be much better and likely will be over time even here. Bill picked a reasonably limited guy and failed to adequately deploy him, but he may get back closer to his ceiling on a decent offense (talent and coaching).

 

[E5 Yaz]

He could be much better and likely will be over time even here.

What have you seen that leads you to this conclusion?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If they only fix one area, we'll be having all of these same conversations next year. The OL, receivers (both TE and WR), and QB are all junk right now. The OL looks good for parts of games (looked good against Buffalo, good for parts of Washington) and then completely falls apart. The WRs have a few good plays in them every game but generally don't get open, run the wrong routes, and drop balls like they were selling popcorn pregame. The QB strings a few nice plays together on a drive and then doesn't finish the job, makes bad decisions, and throws a few wtf balls every game.

The Bruins fan answer to the problem is to bring in a new QB and declare victory. But if they don't either materially improve at two of these three areas, there will be a thread for the next QB that is many pages long.

This Bruins fan views this situation similarly to a struggling hockey team with a bad goalie. Yes, other aspects of the team could stand a lot of improvement, but a bad goalie will 100% sink the team no matter the situation or the other parts of the team. A bad defeseman or a struggling forward won't have that same effect. A bad goalie drags the entire team down with him.

Similarly, a bad QB will drag the entire team down with him.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yes, Mac is bottom of the league right now and making pennies for it. He could be much better and likely will be over time even here. Bill picked a reasonably limited guy and failed to adequately deploy him, but he may get back closer to his ceiling on a decent offense (talent and coaching).

There is absolutely no indication that the bolded will ever be the case. He's regressed horribly in his 3 years here, he's got one more year before his contract expires (and there's zero chance the option gets picked up), and if anything other parts of the team look infinitely better than he does.

He's cooked.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Thats a fair question! I'll respect the push back but reading this thread it wasn't clear at all clear everything is not Macs fault. Seriously replacing him with 'whatever an average qb is' doesn't help. Anything less than Ryan Luck would would have been smashed to a mental/physical pulp too unless they were high mobility anyway. Talking Mac in a vacuum seems vacuous : ). Since stabilizing the line with Onwenu at RT he's had one bad pick.

The rest of the team has been just as bad, with WR and ST even worse! My larger point is I believe Mac could be much better with a least average talent on the line WR and coaching and its not possible to decouple from Bill's failures as coach and GM. I don't think the thread policing is relevant here, but again, fair enough.

Yes, Mac is bottom of the league right now and making pennies for it. He could be much better and likely will be over time even here. Bill picked a reasonably limited guy and failed to adequately deploy him, but he may get back closer to his ceiling on a decent offense (talent and coaching).

I don't know whether Mac will be better over time, but have gradually become convinced that it will have to be somewhere else. Whatever the reason, I think he's cooked here. Too much water under the bridge. Would love to be wrong.

All that said, the fundamental question you're asking -- is Mac really bad or is it the supporting cast and coaching that is making him look worse than he is -- has been a central question in this thread (and others!) for a long time. I think many of us got our hopes up that maybe it was Patricia and the OL and a host of whatever else, but then this year have just finally concluded that it's not them it's him. But, anyway, it's a discussion that has been going on for a long time and many of us crossed the rubicon on this one around game 5 or 6 this year.

 

[BusRaker]

I'm not sure what they do all week at practice because there is no chemistry between Mac and the receivers (and/or Mac just can't throw accurately). Finally with good protection we got to witness this without that excuse. You play how you practice and this offense must have some putrid 7 v 7 drills.

It's just depressing at this point but we should be in line for pick 3 or 4 next year (with the epic Carolina/Chicago game Thursday) and Mac will be in Canada.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I'm not sure what they do all week at practice because there is no chemistry between Mac and the receivers (and/or Mac just can't throw accurately). Finally with good protection we got to witness this without that excuse. You play how you practice and this offense must have some putrid 7 v 7 drills.

It's just depressing at this point but we should be in line for pick 3 or 4 next year (with the epic Carolina/Chicago game Thursday) and Mac will be in Canada.

I suspect practices are actually pretty good. But in the games Mac loses his head, as witnessed by the complete inability to get his footwork correct time after time after time. He can't handle the speed of the game and he panics.

 

[sezwho]

What have you seen that leads you to this conclusion?

He hasn't regressed in his three years here. He was reasonably successful as a rookie and regressed over the last two years for reasons consistent with the worst run organization in the NFL (coaching last year and oline and skill players this year). I had also noted that the oline is no longer in conversation for the worst in the NFL, and he's had one bad pick since.

Bill and Co wrecked him over the last year and a half, and I think a decent org could rebuild him. Maybe that could be here? Again, the ceiling here ain't high and I'm not either. He's a midpack ceiling but the poor performance is still more symptomatic of a failed team than a failed qb in my opinion. fwiw - I wouldn't take a non-mobile QB to build a franchise myself, so I'm in no way wedded to Mac.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

He hasn't regressed in his three years here. He was reasonably successful as a rookie and regressed over the last two years for reasons consistent with the worst run organization in the NFL (coaching last year and oline and skill players this year). I had also noted that the oline is no longer in conversation for the worst in the NFL, and he's had one bad pick since.

Bill and Co wrecked him over the last year and a half, and I think a decent org could rebuild him. Maybe that could be here? Again, the ceiling here ain't high and I'm not either. He's a midpack ceiling but the poor performance is still more symptomatic of a failed team than a failed qb in my opinion. fwiw - I wouldn't take a non-mobile QB to build a franchise myself, so I'm in no way wedded to Mac.

Did you see Sunday's game? He was getting plenty of time to throw and was missing receivers all over the place.

Someone needs to put that miss to Thornton on permanent loop, because that will be my rebuttal until the end of time if there's an argument made that Mac can somehow be a positive. He's the worst QB I've seen here since Tommy Hodson.

 

[sezwho]

Did you see Sunday's game? He was getting plenty of time to throw and was missing receivers all over the place.

Someone needs to put that miss to Thornton on permanent loop, because that will be my rebuttal until the end of time if there's an argument made that Mac can somehow be a positive. He's the worst QB I've seen here since Tommy Hodson.

Yes he missed throws and is off his back foot more than anyone should be. Sure he could be cooked, but from where I sit he's seeing fewer ghosts than he was and I think it correlates with getting time to throw. If the WRs were worthy of their uniforms they could have actually stolen this thing.

Re the bolded, Bill would have benched him if he could but Mac isn't even the worst or second worst qb the Pats rolled out there this season.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yes he missed throws and is off his back foot more than anyone should be. Sure he could be cooked, but from where I sit he's seeing fewer ghosts than he was and I think it correlates with getting time to throw. If the WRs were worthy of their uniforms they could have actually stolen this thing.

Re the bolded, Bill would have benched him if he could but Mac isn't even the worst or second worst qb the Pats rolled out there this season.

His footwork issues no longer have anything to do with pressure faced in the pocket. He was getting plenty of time on Sunday and his feet were still absolutely terrible. A JJSS drop doesn't change that fundamental problem.

At this point they are 2-7 and while I've seen a lot of Zappe to know he's terrible, I don't think they could possibly be much worse with Grier or Cunningham under center as they are with Mac. The results speak for themselves.

 

[Auger34]

Thats a fair question! I'll respect the push back but reading this thread it wasn't clear at all clear everything is not Macs fault. Seriously replacing him with 'whatever an average qb is' doesn't help. Anything less than Ryan Luck would would have been smashed to a mental/physical pulp too unless they were high mobility anyway. Talking Mac in a vacuum seems vacuous : ). Since stabilizing the line with Onwenu at RT he's had one bad pick.

The rest of the team has been just as bad, with WR and ST even worse! My larger point is I believe Mac could be much better with a least average talent on the line WR and coaching and its not possible to decouple from Bill's failures as coach and GM. I don't think the thread policing is relevant here, but again, fair enough.

Yes, Mac is bottom of the league right now and making pennies for it. He could be much better and likely will be over time even here. Bill picked a reasonably limited guy and failed to adequately deploy him, but he may get back closer to his ceiling on a decent offense (talent and coaching).

So let's say that Mac gets an average cast and an average OL. How good do you think he can be? Top 15? Better?

I've been pretty consistent with my opinion...I think if Mac gets put on a league average team, he's probably just a top 20 QB max. The lack of physical tools are pretty glaring...mix that with the mechanical issues and the (seeming) mental issues and i just don't think there's much to hope for there

 

[sezwho]

His footwork issues no longer have anything to do with pressure faced in the pocket. He was getting plenty of time on Sunday and his feet were still absolutely terrible. A JJSS drop doesn't change that fundamental problem.

At this point they are 2-7 and while I've seen a lot of Zappe to know he's terrible, I don't think they could possibly be much worse with Grier or Cunningham under center as they are with Mac. The results speak for themselves.

Yeah, sadly in complete agreement about the footwork (meaning it sucks even without pressure). Its ugly, but I think that can be coached back out of him now that he's actually getting some trust in the line. There was chicken and egg, and I respect the fact some just see chicken shit. He'll get the rest of the season to show he can be average or better, because I don't think Bill agrees with you that they couldn't be worse with the other choices.

So let's say that Mac gets an average cast and an average OL. How good do you think he can be? Top 15? Better?

I've been pretty consistent with my opinion...I think if Mac gets put on a league average team, he's probably just a top 20 QB max. The lack of physical tools are pretty glaring...mix that with the mechanical issues and the (seeming) mental issues and i just don't think there's much to hope for there

Yeah, 10-15 ceiling. No real differentiated physical skills, but if he can get average production from his org he'd be average. His limited physical skills mean he's incapable of overcoming BAD performance, which is why the Pats term has been so rough, but I don't think he needs good+ to perform closer to his ceiling.

Again though, I'm not building my team around an immobile qb in this day an age: that's Bills choice.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I suspect practices are actually pretty good. But in the games Mac loses his head, as witnessed by the complete inability to get his footwork correct time after time after time. He can't handle the speed of the game and he panics.

Yep, that's the thing to me about Mac. Even pre-draft one of the things about him is he doesn't have the physical gifts of most NFL QBs, so his mental work and technique have to be consistently good as he has less margin of error.

I bet Mac crushes practice where he knows nobody will hit him and knows exactly what to do. Probably dots up throws with great mechanics every time. Once the other team might hit him and he doesn't know the answers to the quiz ahead of time he falls apart. Yes, the line has been up and down, and yes, the passcatchers are not consistent enough.... but this is the Mac thread, and as such we focus on Mac. And his inability to slow down the game mentally, and keep his mechanics in-game (even when not pressured) has only been getting worse over his 3 years. Mac Jones should never be throwing fadeaways, he doesn't have the arm for it. Throwing them from clean pockets is just unacceptable on all levels.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

At this point I don’t know how anyone can justify Mac’s ceiling in a realist “perfect” scenario (good OL, one or two true gamebreaking receiving options) as top 15. The whole argument for that seemed to be that he can overcome his physical limitations (mobility, arm strength) by being smart, safe with the ball, accurate, able to diagnose defenses quickly. But he’s not any of those things at a top half of the league level.

 

[Super Nomario]

I don't know whether Mac will be better over time, but have gradually become convinced that it will have to be somewhere else. Whatever the reason, I think he's cooked here. Too much water under the bridge. Would love to be wrong.

All that said, the fundamental question you're asking -- is Mac really bad or is it the supporting cast and coaching that is making him look worse than he is -- has been a central question in this thread (and others!) for a long time. I think many of us got our hopes up that maybe it was Patricia and the OL and a host of whatever else, but then this year have just finally concluded that it's not them it's him. But, anyway, it's a discussion that has been going on for a long time and many of us crossed the rubicon on this one around game 5 or 6 this year.

The Patriots have the 31st scoring offense in the league. The answer to almost every "is the problem X or Y" question is going to be "both." You don't get to be this bad unless almost everyone and everything sucks. There is a Mac problem, there is a supporting cast problem, there is an everything problem.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yep, that's the thing to me about Mac. Even pre-draft one of the things about him is he doesn't have the physical gifts of most NFL QBs, so his mental work and technique have to be consistently good as he has less margin of error.

I bet Mac crushes practice where he knows nobody will hit him and knows exactly what to do. Probably dots up throws with great mechanics every time. Once the other team might hit him and he doesn't know the answers to the quiz ahead of time he falls apart. Yes, the line has been up and down, and yes, the passcatchers are not consistent enough.... but this is the Mac thread, and as such we focus on Mac. And his inability to slow down the game mentally, and keep his mechanics in-game (even when not pressured) has only been getting worse over his 3 years. Mac Jones should never be throwing fadeaways, he doesn't have the arm for it. Throwing them from clean pockets is just unacceptable on all levels.

I'm glad you mentioned his inability to slow the game down mentally. This is a galling issue, and to me it's most obvious when he is at the line and setting pre-snap protections. He is LABORIOUSLY slow in doing so. It takes him forever, the play clock ticks down, and he's still setting protections and moving guys around and he's not even audibling in the process. He appears completely incapable of playing the game at NFL pace. It's not even that his settings are incorrect, rather that it takes him so long to do so that when the ball is snapped in a hurry since the play clock is down, he's almost immediately in panic mode in the pocket.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

https://www.cbre.com/people/ryan-luck

Ryan Luck?

 

[sezwho]

https://www.cbre.com/people/ryan-luck

Ryan Luck?

Hahaha damnit… Andrew

 

[Ralphwiggum]

He hasn't regressed in his three years here. He was reasonably successful as a rookie and regressed over the last two years for reasons consistent with the worst run organization in the NFL (coaching last year and oline and skill players this year). I had also noted that the oline is no longer in conversation for the worst in the NFL, and he's had one bad pick since.

Bill and Co wrecked him over the last year and a half, and I think a decent org could rebuild him. Maybe that could be here? Again, the ceiling here ain't high and I'm not either. He's a midpack ceiling but the poor performance is still more symptomatic of a failed team than a failed qb in my opinion. fwiw - I wouldn't take a non-mobile QB to build a franchise myself, so I'm in no way wedded to Mac.

I concur with the bolded, but then the question is why spend time and resources trying to fix a guy who's ceiling is mid-pack but who might in actuality be a bottom 5 QB in the league (and sure looks like a bottom 5 qb in the league) rather than move on?

 

[sezwho]

I concur with the bolded, but then the question is why spend time and resources trying to fix a guy who's ceiling is mid-pack but who might in actuality be a bottom 5 QB in the league (and sure looks like a bottom 5 qb in the league) rather than move on?

That is the question. He has the rest of the year, essentially by roster default, to use those resources and give us a reason. If the line is holding up and he still isn’t surveying the field properly at the end of the season, it’s probably all she wrote.

Still relatively cheap next year if you can get him right….

 

[Dogman]

I also find it funny that he had very good protection all game and that's not even mentioned anymore.

Yep, since Strange returned and Onwenu got pushed to RT, the line has solidified with Sow playing pretty well and Andrews not having to shoulder the load. Get Brown healthy and we got a line. This has certainly been an issue this season with injuries but now that they are relatively healthy, it's tough to point to this as a reason for Mac sucking. Sacks and pressures are way down since Strange returned.

It's Jones.

 

[sezwho]

Yep, since Strange returned and Onwenu got pushed to RT, the line has solidified with Sow playing pretty well and Andrews not having to shoulder the load. Get Brown healthy and we got a line. This has certainly been an issue this season with injuries but now that they are relatively healthy, it's tough to point to this as a reason for Mac sucking. Sacks and pressures are way down since Strange returned.

It's Jones.

I mentioned it in literally all of my posts.

Also, he’s thrown one bad pick since the line reorganization and the running backs are performing. It was the line.

We’ll see if it was Jones.

 

[tims4wins]

I mentioned it and literally all of my posts.

Also, he’s thrown one bad pick since the since the line reorganization. It was the line.

We’ll see if it was Jones.

They put up 17 points on one of the worst D's in the league, at home. Those 17 came via a 64 yard run; a 25 yard drive; and 3 points after one of the worst roughing the passer calls you'll ever see.

It's Jones.

 

[TomRicardo]

He hasn't regressed in his three years here. He was reasonably successful as a rookie and regressed over the last two years for reasons consistent with the worst run organization in the NFL (coaching last year and oline and skill players this year). I had also noted that the oline is no longer in conversation for the worst in the NFL, and he's had one bad pick since.

Bill and Co wrecked him over the last year and a half, and I think a decent org could rebuild him. Maybe that could be here? Again, the ceiling here ain't high and I'm not either. He's a midpack ceiling but the poor performance is still more symptomatic of a failed team than a failed qb in my opinion. fwiw - I wouldn't take a non-mobile QB to build a franchise myself, so I'm in no way wedded to Mac.

Mac has definitely regressed. He was much better his rookie year as you said. Mac really doesn't have a plus skill right now. You can argue that it is the line (the Redskins line has been way worse than the Pats and Sam Howell is much better). You can point to the organization which has hurt Mac's development but Mac is really not a realistically redeemable asset for the Pats at this point. You are going to let him have a chance next year but draft a QB this draft. A decent organization would cut bait, he is not worth 5 million dollar cap hit right now.

Mac Jones is lame duck at this point. That said if he can have an attitude adjustment he may be able to eek out a career as a back up.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Yes he missed throws and is off his back foot more than anyone should be. Sure he could be cooked, but from where I sit he's seeing fewer ghosts than he was and I think it correlates with getting time to throw. If the WRs were worthy of their uniforms they could have actually stolen this thing.

Re the bolded, Bill would have benched him if he could but Mac isn't even the worst or second worst qb the Pats rolled out there this season.

If Reagor doesnt drop the long one, if JuJu doesn't drop his on the last play, if Pop doesn't drop the dime that Mac laid over the defender, and if Rham doesn't drop an easy catch in the flat, here's what Mac's numbers would have looked like Sunday.

29/44 for over 300 yards, 1td, no picks, and at least 3-10 more points on the board and a win.

But instead, the focus is on two incompletions (the one to Thornton and the one to Stevenson, and the one to Stevenson was a play that was called because Douglas dropped the one before that).

I've said repeatedly that Mac's broken right now, and I personally put almost all of that blame on the organization (which is something I almost never do when it comes to athletes). Like you, I think he's going to get another shot somewhere else and I hope he does well. Meanwhile, we're going to be doing this dance for the next 3-4 years as BB and Co. ruin another young quarterback unless someone steals BB's keys from him when it comes to evaluating and bringing in offensive talent.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Yep, since Strange returned and Onwenu got pushed to RT, the line has solidified with Sow playing pretty well and Andrews not having to shoulder the load. Get Brown healthy and we got a line. This has certainly been an issue this season with injuries but now that they are relatively healthy, it's tough to point to this as a reason for Mac sucking. Sacks and pressures are way down since Strange returned.

It's Jones.

They have done a much better job at preventing pressures, no doubt. But they are still bad. It's a work in progress. Stevenson's 64-yard run, which was awesome, removed from the equation and he's 8 carries for 23 yards. Zeke was 6 carries for 17 yards. So even when they've mostly sorted out pass protection, the lack of an actual running game allows opponents to drop 7 and take away basically everything with this receiver group.

None of that excuses Mac. He has been terrible. Lack of running game doesn't make him miss guys by 5 yards. But I really wish that we'd stop setting the bar for the OL at "if everyone gets healthy and plays to their potential, they're adequate." Whatever QB we draft next year (or trade for) is going to need more than "yay on a good day you won't die" from an OL.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If Reagor doesnt drop the long one, if JuJu doesn't drop his on the last play, if Pop doesn't drop the dime that Mac laid over the defender, and if Rham doesn't drop an easy catch in the flat, here's what Mac's numbers would have looked like Sunday.

29/44 for over 300 yards, 1td, no picks, and at least 3-10 more points on the board and a win.

But instead, the focus is on two incompletions (the one to Thornton and the one to Stevenson, and the one to Stevenson was a play that was called because Douglas dropped the one before that).

I've said repeatedly that Mac's broken right now, and I personally put almost all of that blame on the organization (which is something I almost never do when it comes to athletes). Like you, I think he's going to get another shot somewhere else and I hope he does well. Meanwhile, we're going to be doing this dance for the next 3-4 years as BB and Co. ruin another young quarterback unless someone steals BB's keys from him when it comes to evaluating and bringing in offensive talent.

But you cannot excuse the missed throws. OK there were drops on long throws. But the misses to Thornton and Stevenson were SO egregious, SO inexcusable, and SO inexplicable that they sum up that Mac is the problem. There was no pressure, the receivers were WIDE open, and Mac couldn't make the simplest of throws. And if a QB cannot connect on throws that are completed by 99% of the other QBs in the league, he has zero business in the NFL.

Mac sucks, and the reasons he sucks have absolutely nothing to do with the surrounding cast and the coaching staff. Nothing at all. He sucks because he can't make throws any other QB can make.

Mac career can be summed up with the Thornton miss. Play that on a loop forever when someone says he can be fixed. No, he cannot.

I am so frustrated because the excuses keep being made and his errors are quite literally inexcusable. You could give Mac Tyreek Hill and he'd still be awful because he cannot make the throws.

 

[Zedia]

I don't remember a Pop drop, was that the one that they overturned after the fake injury? Because I would term that "almost an insane catch" rather than a "drop".

They didn't run very well (outside Rham's TD), but McDermott played every snap at LT and seemed fairly cromulent (in that I didn't hear his name all game). A number of cromulent games last year at RT and now this. Any line experts know what's up with him?

 

[sezwho]

Mac has definitely regressed. He was much better his rookie year as you said. Mac really doesn't have a plus skill right now. You can argue that it is the line (the Redskins line has been way worse than the Pats and Sam Howell is much better). You can point to the organization which has hurt Mac's development but Mac is really not a realistically redeemable asset for the Pats at this point. You are going to let him have a chance next year but draft a QB this draft. A decent organization would cut bait, he is not worth 5 million dollar cap hit right now.

Mac Jones is lame duck at this point. That said if he can have an attitude adjustment he may be able to eek out a career as a back up.

Can't disagree with any of this, except the bolded, as he costs them nothing to develop this year. There is no 'opportunity cost' in rolling him out there (unless he keeps sucking and Cunningham pops or whatever).

I'll tap out as I'm just repeating myself at this point, but they have half a season with a stable line to see who on offense can be part of the future. That includes Mac and the WRs and probably the line as well. I think we know who the TEs are.

Not sure if this is hot-takey, but I think both Bill and Mac are 50/50 to be here next year and I'm not sure who I'd bet on. I would bet on not both though.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

But you cannot excuse the missed throws. OK there were drops on long throws. But the misses to Thornton and Stevenson were SO egregious, SO inexcusable, and SO inexplicable that they sum up that Mac is the problem. There was no pressure, the receivers were WIDE open, and Mac couldn't make the simplest of throws. And if a QB cannot connect on throws that are completed by 99% of the other QBs in the league, he has zero business in the NFL.

Mac sucks, and the reasons he sucks have absolutely nothing to do with the surrounding cast and the coaching staff. Nothing at all. He sucks because he can't make throws any other QB can make.

I'm not excusing anything about those throws. They were bad throws. They also aren't the sole reason the team lost this game, FAR FROM IT, and you refuse to accept that. The defense couldn't get off the field on third down, the special teams sucked (which you blamed on Mac), the playcalling was awful, and the receivers who, some of whom shouldn't be in the NFL, were a train wreck. But for you, it's all Mac, all the time. I get it.

But unlike you, I also have the ability to recognize that quarterbacks miss throws. It happens in every game, every week at every level of football. I mean, did you happen to catch Justin Herbert going 16/30 for 136 yards last night against the Jets? Let me check my notes, the same Jets that Mac went 15/29 for 201 yards and a touchdown against? But, but but Justin Herberts feet were planted right, he has a strong arm, he has calm eyes, he gives a good press conference...

If Mac hits those throws, and his receivers don't drop easy catches, Mac would be throwing for 350 yards and multiple touchdowns with no picks. Basically if Mac isn't flawless, you won't give the guy an inch, which is fine, but I'm going to say you'll be pretty unhappy with the next guy, and the guy after that, and the guy after that if that's the standard you're setting.

 

[Jimbodandy]

but I'm going to say you'll be pretty unhappy with the next guy, and the guy after that, and the guy after that if that's the standard you're setting.

We've already established that he's a Bruins fan.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I don't remember a Pop drop, was that the one that they overturned after the fake injury? Because I would term that "almost an insane catch" rather than a "drop".

They didn't run very well (outside Rham's TD), but McDermott played every snap at LT and seemed fairly cromulent (in that I didn't hear his name all game). A number of cromulent games last year at RT and now this. Any line experts know what's up with him?

It was a perfectly thrown ball to a receiver with virtually no separation (which is the case with most of the balls Mac has to throw to this group). I don't blame Pop for it, like I do the other drops, because frankly, he's too small for that kind of a route. He almost made a great catch "for him," but for any NFL receiver who isn't the size of Tom Thumb, that pass is perfectly thrown and the receiver should come down with it. It's not on Mac that it wasn't completed, that's the point.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Justin Herbert can actually make other throws. Mac can't make ANY throws. Herbert has had dominant games. Mac is the worst starting QB in football.

Mac is horrible, he's horrible when he had time to throw, he's horrible when he had open receivers, he's horrible at the beginning of games and the end of them. The Pats are 31st in scoring this year.

Mac had time on Sunday. His receivers were often open, some for potential big gains. Mac isn't hurt. His OL did well. The weather was good. He was playing at home against a lousy D missing two of their stars. And he played like shit.

If you're seriously arguing that Mac and Herbert have similar skill sets then I suspect this conversation is over. I have gone out of my way to note that I see problems with Mac that have nothing to do with his surrounding cast. Mac is a terrible QB and he could have in their primes Mark Duper and Mark Clayton and absolutely nothing would change about his performance. He. Can't. Make. The. Throws. He lacks the arm, the footwork, the processing ability, the leadership, and the pocket presence to do so.

Put the Thornton miss on replay. That's all anyone needs to see.

 

[jezza1918]

Justin Herbert can actually make other throws. Mac can't make ANY throws. Herbert has had dominant games. Mac is the worst starting QB in football.

Mac is horrible, he's horrible when he had time to throw, he's horrible when he had open receivers, he's horrible at the beginning of games and the end of them. The Pats are 31st in scoring this year.

Mac had time on Sunday. His receivers were often open, some for potential big gains. Mac isn't hurt. His OL did well. The weather was good. He was playing at home against a lousy D missing two of their stars. And he played like shit.

If you're seriously arguing that Mac and Herbert have similar skill sets then I suspect this conversation is over. I have gone out of my way to note that I see problems with Mac that have nothing to do with his surrounding cast. Mac is a terrible QB and he could have in their primes Mark Duper and Mark Clayton and absolutely nothing would change about his performance. He. Can't. Make. The. Throws.

Oh man...I could not disagree more with the last part of this post. If Mac had Duper and Clayton on this team I'm 100% positive he would have way more zip on his throws...

 

[rodderick]

I'm not excusing anything about those throws. They were bad throws. They also aren't the sole reason the team lost this game, FAR FROM IT, and you refuse to accept that. The defense couldn't get off the field on third down, the special teams sucked (which you blamed on Mac), the playcalling was awful, and the receivers who, some of whom shouldn't be in the NFL, were a train wreck. But for you, it's all Mac, all the time. I get it.

But unlike you, I also have the ability to recognize that quarterbacks miss throws. It happens in every game, every week at every level of football. I mean, did you happen to catch Justin Herbert going 16/30 for 136 yards last night against the Jets? Let me check my notes, the same Jets that Mac went 15/29 for 201 yards and a touchdown against? But, but but Justin Herberts feet were planted right, he has a strong arm, he has calm eyes, he gives a good press conference...

If Mac hits those throws, and his receivers don't drop easy catches, Mac would be throwing for 350 yards and multiple touchdowns with no picks. Basically if Mac isn't flawless, you won't give the guy an inch, which is fine, but I'm going to say you'll be pretty unhappy with the next guy, and the guy after that, and the guy after that if that's the standard you're setting.

Yes, if Mac Jones could play and his receivers could play they'd be a good offense. Groundbreaking insight.

And lol at the suggestion that Mac Jones' issue is merely "not being flawless". You'd think he was performing like CJ Stroud and SoSH was bitching because he wasn't Brady right away.

Cooked Cam played better with Damiere Byrd, N'Keal Harry and Ryan Izzo. That offense averaged 5 points per game more than this one. He's not good enough. I don't know why we have to live in the reality in which we pretend we can't actually watch the games.