Nah. He lacks the arm to get them the ball. He would put far too much air under it throwing downfield.
Look at Jimmy in LV this year. Adams wasn't getting the ball because Jimmy couldn't heave it to him. That's what we would see here.
The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
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Look at Jimmy in LV this year. Adams wasn't getting the ball because Jimmy couldn't heave it to him. That's what we would see here.
To be clear, my post was solely a joke about the Marks' extracurricular activities.
edit: maybe not a good joke, but a joke nonetheless!
Oh. I am dumb. I think it was Duper who had the bad nose candy problem. Miami in the 80s must have been a fun time.
I did want to mention the running game though.
Do folks have any idea how many tackles our running backs have broken this year?
5
All by Rhamondre. FIVE
As a team, receivers and runners, this team has broken a total of 15 tackles all season. You know who leads the receiving corps? Rhamondre, with 3.
Let's put this in perspective:
The Dolphins running backs alone have 20. Their receivers have another 17. Isaiah Pacheco by himself, has 12 as a runner, and 4 as a receiver. He has more than the entire Patriots team. The Chargers have 24 as a team in one less game than the Patriots. The Eagles have 29, Swift alone has 11 as a running back, and AJ Brown has 7 by himself as a receiver. The Cowboys receivers by themselves have 28 broken tackles (Pollard has 13 as a receiver, 3 as a running back, more than the Pats total, also in one less game than the Pats have played). The fucking Carolina Panthers in only 8 games, have 32 broken tackles as a team. The Chicago fucking Bears have 31.
Last year, Rhamondre by himself had 24 broken tackles as a runner and 11 as a receiver.
If people keep making the argument that this Pats team has skill position talent, I might lose my fucking mind.
The 2019 Patriots with Cam finished 27th in points and 27th in yards. The 2020 Patriots with Mac Jones and most of the same players finished 6th in points and 15th in yards. If you think that 2021 team resembles this current 2023 team in any way, we've got a different view of things.
The Thornton miss is unbelievably awful but I have the JJSS pick on loop. In the 4th quarter with the game on the line, Mac makes a throw I want him to make and hits BB's big money acquisition in both hands...who then pukes up the game Special Teams had tried so hard in the 4th to lose as well.
All the WRs keep making me think
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17lkdqoLt44
I think it is also clear that teams are stacking the box, like Washington did on Sunday, and daring Mac to beat them throwing the ball. It's no wonder our RB aren't breaking tackles when 3 defenders are bringing them down every play.
Mac simply cannot throw the ball well enough to do it.
Mac simply cannot throw the ball well enough to do it.
I was confident that Jones could be a top 12-15 QB off of his rookie year. He seemed to be able to make the safe easy throws, but made some dumb mistakes. I figured that over time he could expand his repertoire and clean up the crap.
Well, maybe the o-line and the WR and the coaching sucked, but there is no evidence that he can expand his repetoire, and it sure looks as if the more he tries to do the more dumb mistakes he makes. And whatever else is going on, if you’re prone to stupidity, well that’s a problem.
Well, maybe the o-line and the WR and the coaching sucked, but there is no evidence that he can expand his repetoire, and it sure looks as if the more he tries to do the more dumb mistakes he makes. And whatever else is going on, if you’re prone to stupidity, well that’s a problem.
Wait, who exactly is Mac supposed to throw the ball to deep to keep defenses honest?
This isn't new, teams have been stacking the box against the Pats for the entire season, not because Mac can't make the throws, it's because they don't have anyone that can get open down the field. Early in the season, the line wasn't even giving them enough time to get down the field in the first place.
Then when Mac does make a deep throw, Parker drops it, Reagor drops it, etc. When Mac throws into coverage, people lose their shit, but we don't have a guy that can get any separation downfield against man, so why would any team respect that? There's plenty of video out there of Mac making deep throws to open receivers at Alabama. The kind of open that guys like Tua and Hurts and Purdy see all day long. Instead, we got guys like Parker who let defenders push them out of bounds, step for step on deep routes. And it's only been a few weeks since the line has even been able to hold up long enough for those routes to develop. Shit, they couldn't even try play action for the first 5+ weeks of the season.
In Bedard’s (outside of DotB, Mac’s biggest defender) latest, he breaks down the countless plays Mac left on the field against a hapless defense, which any fan (and fellow teammate) can plainly see. He surmises that keeping Mac as starter will (and probably already has) lose the locker room and faith in the coaching staff, not unlike the Raider situation.
Is this what we're going to do now? Point out one incompletion over and over again?
Two can play this game:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxfHfKHT1XI
If videos are too long for you, how about just screen shots of plays that were far more important than a 1st quarter incompletion. You know, like this one (somebody else called this "mid shin level" LOL:
Because the first quarter incompletion on 4th down was a throw any QB in the world should make. A fucking high school QB should make that throw with ease. Mac missed him by 6 yards.
I was listening to Lazar's Catch-22 podcast last week and he was talking about how maybe the Erhardt/Perkins offense has run its course. Lazar was wondering if all the presnap calls and adjustments were too much for Mac and that the Shanahan stuff is just easier on the QB. Brady was a supercomputer back there, he made the Will and Mike linebacker calls, he changed plays and protections, and he got guys set and in the right spots. I really wonder if BB looks at Mac and is like what's your problem, we have 20 years of a guy running this offense without a hitch.
The 2020 OL had Thuney and Mason manning the guard spots, Owenu at RT, and a younger more effective David Andrews at C. That team ran for 4.7 yards per attempt which is a FULL YARD better than the current edition. They were light years better than the 2023 OL which has been masquerading as a dumpster fire for most of the season. Mac still sucks but the organizations attempts to provide him with better protection and better weapons have been complete failures.
And that FOURTH quarter pass that hit JuJu right on his hands is catch that middle school players make every week, what's your point?
Should Tua be run out of the NFL for this pass on fourth down?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLmTD-i_5y8
How about this one?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvD999iivhM
How about Jalen Hurts?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCpaDMCwRdk
Josh Allen (here's 3 examples in the same game)
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99sC_Fk-KzQ
How about these 4 from the same game by Sam Howell:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sneuv2Ejjeo
I mean seriously, we're going to point to one play over and over again. Are we going to do with every NFL quarterback, or just Mac? I just need to know where we're headed, because I've got receipts for everybody in the NFL.
We are doing it with Mac because every other QB you're posting about has moments and games and seasons where they not only play well but are not the fucking worst QB in the entire league while leading their team to a 31st best points total. THAT'S why we're talking about Mac.
You can whatabout this all you like but that's the difference. Mac has done NOTHING right this year, he's getting worse, and he's killing this team. And he's killing the team by missing the easiest goddamn throws possible because his feet are never set and he's constantly panicking in the pocket for no good reason and he's doing nothing about it by getting better or working on it.
Jesus Fucking Christ.
You can whatabout this all you like but that's the difference. Mac has done NOTHING right this year, he's getting worse, and he's killing this team. And he's killing the team by missing the easiest goddamn throws possible because his feet are never set and he's constantly panicking in the pocket for no good reason and he's doing nothing about it by getting better or working on it.
Jesus Fucking Christ.
None of those plays are remotely comparable. The QBs are on the move. Mac had perfect protection, his receiver had easy separation, and it was out-breaking and not a bomb down field. It was such a fucking simple throw.
View: https://twitter.com/goodNEfan/status/1721231758308319742
View: https://twitter.com/goodNEfan/status/1721231758308319742
I mentioned the scheme about 70 pages back, and just this morning noted that Mac has a terrible time setting everything up at a reasonable pace.
Mac's football brain isn't smart enough to handle everything.
Can you explain more of what he said? Specifically the locker room part. It's my contention (and some others in here) that Mac is not a team leader and prefers to throw subtle digs at people/throw them under the bus.
That team had a great running game that had a ton to do with Cam Newton as well. But the weapons were worse and they had a QB that was completely toast and looked like he was throwing a medicine ball out there and the passing game in general was more effective (higher ANY/A, higher EPA/dropback). I refuse to believe this is as well as a QB could do in this offense. And if that's not as well as a QB could do, he's a big part of the problem as well.
Tell me you didn't watch the videos without telling me. Go to the 40 second mark of the video of Sam Howell. How was that throw? It wasn't a bomb, he was in a clean pocket, and he threw it directly to a defender.
You are right. I didn't watch the Howell video. You are correct that he threw it right to a defender. But if the defender wasn't there, it would have hit his receiver in the hands. Bad decision? Absolutely. Wide open receiver that he missed by 2 yards? No sir.
Edit: I think this discussion has run its course. We're not going to get anywhere with each other dissecting these throws.
The running game is suffering for the same reason as the short passing game... nobody puts more than at most 1 man more than 7 yards off the LOS. Teams have an insultingly low opinion of Mac's willingness and ability to throw downfield with anything but lollipops, so there is basically always a numbers mismatch.
Even some of the good plays that go bad, part of it is about this.... like the INT... yeah crap luck, but also Juju is what... 9-10 yards downfield? There is a guy all over him and the safety was shallow enough to break and pick off the bounce... the Gesicki is doubled less than 5 yards up field. They had zero fear of the deep out that Douglas was running (poorly)...
Oh Jesus Christ is right. So you would you rather I throw you videos of Desmond Ridder and Derek Carr and Zach Wilson and Geno Smith and Anthony Richardson and Justin Fields and Tyson Bagent and Kirk Cousins and Deshaun Watson? Because I've got a metric fuckton of those for you too.
It's comical at this point talking to you about this. Easiest throws possible? Was this an easy throw?
https://sports.yahoo.com/sam-howell-throws-inexplicable-end-zone-interception-directly-to-patriots-s-kyle-dugger-195037663.html
I actually commend you for sticking to the script, it's not easy, but you've done it.
I honestly don't know why anyone argues or replies to your posts anymore because 1) it's very clear that Mac is trash and 2) you'll never be convinced of that fact.
Please post more videos of HoF QBs missing throws though, it's very entertaining.
How were the weapons that Mac had a year later, on the exact same team, so much better than what was on the team when Cam Newton was there one year earlier. They literally fucking went from 27th to 6th in points scored with a rookie quarterback. And if you think this team's weapons in 2023 are better than those in 2019 and 2020, I have no idea what the fuck we're even talking about. Jaelen fucking Reagor just took 77% of the snaps last week, JuJu looks like he's dying, Mike Gesicki and Tyquan Thornton couldn't get open against a snail.
What are we talking about?
I suppose if you don't actually read the posts, that's what you'd come away with.
I will steadfastly maintain that the offensive skill players on this team fucking suck. Mac is broken, and needs to be elsewhere. Two things can be true, but if folks want to treat Mac differently because they only watch Patriots football, and have apparently never seen an incompletion in their life, I'm going to say something.
Some of the shit posted around here, disguised as "analysis" would be grounds for banishment on the main board. It's a fucking joke. I'm responding to folks who blamed Mac for the throw to JuJu, told me the throw was low, told me Mac has never come up big (after he beat the Bills like 3 fucking weeks ago), that his receives are average, that special teams mistakes are Mac's fault because those poor guys are trying too hard and on and on and on...When Mac misses a receiver, it's because he sucks, but when his receivers drop balls right in their fucking mitts, it's "bad luck."
It's like blaming the Red Sox lineup for their pitching struggles because the offense went 1, 2, 3 in the top of the inning. That's how fucking stupid this is.
Ok, here's a nice 9 minute video for you.
You don't even have to go 9 minutes, just watch the first pass from Aaron Rodgers if, as we've established, your ability to focus for long periods of time is a struggle:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtTJ4Zry_ew
Front side pressure forced him to get rid of it quickly.
Edit: and just to prove I watched more than that play, go to 1:50. That was a pretty similar play. Plenty of time, out breaking route, roughly 20-25 yards downfield. At least Jimmy's WR was close enough to get a hand on it.
Edit 2: to your point about the talent being the same in 2021 vs 2020, none of Rham, Bourne, or Henry were on the 2020 team. Agholor and Jonnu also combined for 68 catches in 2021.
Damien Harris was their leading rusher both seasons, Sony Michel was there first in 2020, until he went 9 carries for 117 yards against Vegas, then got hurt/COVID. Meyers was their leading receiver both seasons. Burkhead/James white combined for 74 catches in 2020. They replaced those guys with Brandon fucking Bolden. Both running games were buttressed by Jakob Johnson (which if I ever could get BB's ear, I'd be screaming to bring back a fullback). I can't believe we're now pining for the days of Nelson Agholor and Jonnu Smith.
The only reason Jimmy's receiver got a finger on it, is because he was standing there so long waiting for it, he was able to jump high enough and he's an actual athlete, unlike the Pats receivers. How did you miss the Mahomes pass at about 30 seconds if you made it that far? How about Darnold at 2:05 or so?
And just to be clear, you're now excusing all of the interceptions Mac has thrown on the run, or when under pressure, correct? Those aren't bad throws. I don't know, I'd rather have Mac miss an open guy by 3 yards than throw the fucking ball right to Kyle Dugger like Sam Howell did last week, but I guess YMMV.
That guy sucks, he's never made a good play, the whole team sucks because of him, he's useless.
I don’t get the argument, I don’t think. Isn’t it kinda like saying, I dunno, Kutter Crawford might be an ace because here’s some videos of Cole and Snell and Gallen giving up homers on shitty pitches? The problem isn’t just that Mac makes bad throws like everyone else, it’s that he makes too many of them and not enough good ones.
We are talking about Juju/Parker/Douglas/Henry/Gesicki/Rhamondre/Zeke being better than Byrd/Harry/Meyers/Izzo/Lacosse/Harris/Burkhead. That's what the fuck I'm talking about. Not that hard to comprehend, unless you're a maniac whose sole purpose in life is to make inane post after post exasperated because everyone else is blind and you're the sole bringer of reason in regards to the absolute suckitude of Mac fucking Jones of all players. God this schtick has grown stale. But at least you're not comparing him to Brady all the time anymore, that's a start.
Mahomes was rushing it, didn't field the snap cleanly. Darnold's was a bomb, not a similar throw.
I don't think Sam Howell is any good either.
The argument is if folks are going to constantly point out ONE throw over and over again to make a much larger point about Mac's ability, then why can't I do the same about every other quarterback in the NFL.
It's pointing out the absurdity of using a sample size of ONE. And this sample size was brought into it around a discussion not about Mac (who I've acknowledged is not very good), but about the Pats skill position players.
We are harping on the one throw because it was so, incredibly bad, and it goes against all of the arguments that have been made that his receivers don't get separation, or they drop it, or the line can't protect him. He got the perfect storm of protection and separation on a throw that was not a bomb, and he didn't even put it close enough that his receiver could get a fingertip. It's just an example of a play where things couldn't have been more perfect and he still screwed it up. It summed up the Mac experience for me.
Since you clearly feel this way, what do you think happened between the Eagles game and the throw summing up the Mac experience? Because when I see the video, I see if not a top shelf QB, someone who is competent to better than average.
Why are we cherry picking? Mac's entire body of work screams bad QB. Yes he's had good games and good quarters and good series, but overall it's very easy to see how bad of a QB he is.
Wait, we're still talking about the 2020 team, aren't we?
Why the fuck are you leaving out James White and Sony MIchel? I mean, I know why you're leaving out Julian Edelman, but if you're leaving him out and his 6 games played, why are you pretending that Parker and Douglas and JuJu are iron men? I mean, shit in 6 games, Edelman had more catches and more yards than Parker/Gesicki or JuJu have had in 7-9 games and only 3 less catches than what Douglas has had this season.
And I can assure you there is a pretty sizeable silent contingent here that agrees that you guys and your blinders are fucking ridiculous. I can assure you this isn't schtick. If you think this group of skill position players, and their 15 broken tackles in 9 games are good, then I'm fucking thrilled that you aren't running the operation in Foxboro.
Wait, you're asking him why he's cherry picking, and not the guys pointing to one fucking play over and over and over again?
Yep. That was a shit-ass play by Mac. I'm pretty sure my only contribution to the game thread was to bitch at what a crap throw that was. Buuuuuuut.....
...this is absurd. Of course receivers get open SOMETIMES (just not as often as every other WR group in the NFL). Of course the OL can hold up for a play here and there (just not as often as every other OL group in the NFL).
Using this one play to arrive at a meaningful conclusion is insane. Literally. It is bereft of rationality.
Mac isn't a very good QB (probably middle of the starter pack as a ceiling, which isn't very good), but he has played decently enough that a better set of players around him would've likely resulted in more wins. How many more? 1? 2? 3? Who knows. But more. Frankly, given the frequency and magnitude of the worst drops, anyone arguing to the contrary is not acting in good faith.
And the thing is, it wouldn't even take a materially better roster to have these extra (1? 2? 3?) wins: just 3-4 fewer drops. Meaning that even if Parker and JuJu and whoever the fuck don't drop massive passes and we get a couple more wins, this team still sucks at OL and WR. And Jesus, those broken tackle numbers are astonishing.
I think the point that DotB has been making is NOT that Mac is great (or even really good), it's just that there is a MASSIVE amount of logically flawed (to be charitable) football "analysis" driving a lot of the discussions on Mac. And logically flawed (to be charitable) football "analysis" deserves to be called out as being exactly that, even if the conclusions reached at the end aren't that dissimilar to what rational football analysis tells us (i.e., Mac isn't very good).
The reason this distinction is important to me (I can't speak for DotB) is that irrational analysis offers no prescriptive insight as to possible fixes going forward. It's just shouting into the ether. It's not interesting, it's not provocative, and it offers no foundation upon which to discuss less black & white options going forward. If this forum was moderated as heavily as the main Red Sox forum, there'd be about 15 posts in this thread.
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