The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

[lexrageorge]

I don't know how that all happens. But it's insane to not have these conversations. Sometimes it's obvious to the coach but not obvious to the player. If you care at ALL about a person's development - which you should as their head coach - you have the conversation. Again, it's not a massive time consumer.

"Hey Mac, have a seat. I haven't been seeing what I want to see, and your attitude is not what we need. We've asked you to do X, Y, and Z, and it's not happening. I just want you to know you're being demoted to third string."

That takes 20 seconds to say. Less, even. At least then he knows what the deal is.

I mean don't get me wrong. I've seen lots of times in HS sports where a coach doesn't communicate with his players, but - speaking as a HS coach myself - it's malpractice to not do so. If you care at all about these people.

There's literally no reason to not have these conversations. When I put a kid on the bench, I tell her what the deal is so she's not left in the dark. Even if it's for an obvious reason. It's not hard to do and it leaves no room for the whole "coach just doesn't like me for some reason; he plays favorites" crap.

It's the professional leagues, not high school. It's also a 2-way street; Mac can always go and ask what the deal is.

Mac may indeed have been a model citizen after his benching, although I am personally skeptical. But that doesn't undo everything that happened to cause the benching in the first place. And the reality is that the coaches have a job to do with the players expected to play.

And if he was indeed still going outside the team to air the locker room laundry, then Belichick doesn't owe him the time of day.

 

[Dewey's 'stache]

Mac was both a symptom and a casualty of the disfunction of the last 5 years, but especially the last two seasons. He was not THE reason the Patriots have been shit post-Brady, that’s squarely on the shoulders of the person making roster decisions and coaching. BB drafted a pocket passer with a weak arm and who hadn’t face adversity and then surrounded him with a wet paper bag OL and receivers who got no separation. If Mac lacked the ability to sling it in small windows or run when the pocket collapsed it’s not entirely his fault. Now he certainly shit the bed when it stopped being easy and that’s on him. We knew he was physically limited and it turned out he was mentally limited, too, but it’s not like he’s the Gavrilo Princip blowing up the Patriot dynasty.

This sums it up pretty well, and nice WWI reference. BB is Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Mac (to some) is the assasin Gavrilo Princip. I think it is way more muddled than that and this post expresses that with refreshing brevity. Mac is, as it turns out, not mentally built for adverse times, but much of those hard times were created around him rather than by him (at least as it started to fall apart in 2022) and several not so great choices later (on both sides), here we are.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

A silver lining of the 2022-23 decay of the offense is we definitively discovered that Mac isn’t the answer at QB. If they muddled along playing mediocre ball, then who knows? Maybe they’re wasting another couple of years, including the fifth year tag, hoping for a different answer rather than throwing more assets at the position.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I'd love to know the conversations between Belichick and Saban about Mac before the draft ... and now

 

[Jinhocho]

I cannot believe we are still talking about this guy. I really wonder if he will be here next year and given a chance to earn the starting job. Ugh.

Every one of his terrible qualities was visible in that article.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Put me on team "both things can be true".

Mac sucked, and has handled adversity in the NFL in pretty much the worst possible way, culminating with that ridiculous self-serving article which he probably thinks makes him look good or at least like a martyr but actually makes him look like a clueless goober. And I want him off the team yesterday.

All of that said I think BB's ability to put players in the proverbial doghouse and hold grudges over things like Mac going outside of the organization when he was frustrated with Patricia last year is yet another data point that it was time for Bill to go. Given that BB elected to go into 2024 with Mac and Zappe as QB options with Mac as the presumed starter, I would think that trying to fix that relationship would have been worth trying rather than further freezing him out. And if Bill already knew that Mac sucked (or didn't have it mentally or physically to play in the NFL) after what looked like a promising rookie year, then he should have brought in more than just Bailey Zappe to try to compete for the job.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I don't know how that all happens. But it's insane to not have these conversations. Sometimes it's obvious to the coach but not obvious to the player. If you care at ALL about a person's development - which you should as their head coach - you have the conversation. Again, it's not a massive time consumer.

"Hey Mac, have a seat. I haven't been seeing what I want to see, and your attitude is not what we need. We've asked you to do X, Y, and Z, and it's not happening. I just want you to know you're being demoted to third string."

That takes 20 seconds to say. Less, even. At least then he knows what the deal is.

I mean don't get me wrong. I've seen lots of times in HS sports where a coach doesn't communicate with his players, but - speaking as a HS coach myself - it's malpractice to not do so. If you care at all about these people.

There's literally no reason to not have these conversations. When I put a kid on the bench, I tell her what the deal is so she's not left in the dark. Even if it's for an obvious reason. It's not hard to do and it leaves no room for the whole "coach just doesn't like me for some reason; he plays favorites" crap.

I agree that clear, concise communication between coaches and athletes - particularly youth athletes - is an essential part of the job but with the onus on coaches.

However from what I've seen, once kids get into high level sports, be it high school or club level, coaches either don't have the time or just aren't inclined to help individual kids, especially those who aren't elite, figure it out (as a side note, coach communication issues overall are a huge issue in youth sports in my experience. It feels like the first thing a parent will discuss when talking about a player struggling at this level). Instead what typically happens is the kids who are self-guided and super determined tend to stick with those programs whereas those more dissatisfied go elsewhere or quit altogether. Obviously these aren't ideal outcomes but this is how filtering works in a lot of youth sports.

Regardless, its hard to see who will be sympathetic to Mac's argument. Even if BB was a big meanie, Mac still has to demonstrate that he belongs in this league. Complaining about coach communication issues seems like a bad way to market himself to his next set of coordinators etc. Again, I would have expected Mac Jones Media to put out a lot of clips of him working out hard, studying 24/7 and planning to come to camp in the "best shape of his life". Instead, we got tears.

 

[nighthob]

Tuscaloosa, but it will be Fords, he'll get you into the perfect F-150 for all your needs.

It's going to be GMC.

 

[tims4wins]

Put me on team "both things can be true".

Mac sucked, and has handled adversity in the NFL in pretty much the worst possible way, culminating with that ridiculous self-serving article which he probably thinks makes him look good or at least like a martyr but actually makes him look like a clueless goober. And I want him off the team yesterday.

All of that said I think BB's ability to put players in the proverbial doghouse and hold grudges over things like Mac going outside of the organization when he was frustrated with Patricia last year is yet another data point that it was time for Bill to go. Given that BB elected to go into 2024 with Mac and Zappe as QB options with Mac as the presumed starter, I would think that trying to fix that relationship would have been worth trying rather than further freezing him out. And if Bill already knew that Mac sucked (or didn't have it mentally or physically to play in the NFL) after what looked like a promising rookie year, then he should have brought in more than just Bailey Zappe to try to compete for the job.

This is where I fall.

 

[BaseballJones]

No doubt the failure to become a good NFL QB is overwhelmingly on Mac. But BB, in my opinion, has a responsibility to communicate with his players. It’s really not difficult to do and it seems like a basic element of the job. And there’s no reason NOT to. Not communicating at best leads to the guy reading your mind accurately (good luck with that) but at worst leads to mistrust, misunderstanding, and division.

This isn’t about high school vs.professional. This is about understanding human nature.

And keep in mind this is me - one of the biggest Belichick fans around. This just mystifies me how you could just cut a guy off completely like that without any communication whatsoever. (Assuming this is all the truth)

 

[Cellar-Door]

No doubt the failure to become a good NFL QB is overwhelmingly on Mac. But BB, in my opinion, has a responsibility to communicate with his players. It’s really not difficult to do and it seems like a basic element of the job. And there’s no reason NOT to. Not communicating at best leads to the guy reading your mind accurately (good luck with that) but at worst leads to mistrust, misunderstanding, and division.

This isn’t about high school vs.professional. This is about understanding human nature.

And keep in mind this is me - one of the biggest Belichick fans around. This just mystifies me how you could just cut a guy off completely like that without any communication whatsoever. (Assuming this is all the truth)

The last parenthetical is pretty important. I mean, Bill has been a coach for what 40+ years, I really doubt it is as extreme as a (obviously sourced by Mac's camp) story makes it out. Did Mac not know if he was going to be QB2 or QB3 until inactives... yeah maybe, who cares? Most guys on the fringe probably don't until the last minute either. Also, I mean.... this is Mac's camp trying to sell that he has a future etc. Everyone including Mac knew when he got benched the final time that he was done here, it's not like he's the #4 WR whose playing time is going to depend on the game script, he was done and wasn't playing again except in an emergency, they made an inactive decision that reflected what everyone already knew. Does Bill need to hold his hand?

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I'd say the most telling part of the entire QB scenario is that Zappe played more competitive football than Mac with the same roster and the OC who was supposed to fix Mac.

Zappe was also pretty terrible, however. His completion percentage, TD percentgage, INT percentage, yards per attempt, and sack percentage were all worse than Mac.

What bothers me about this is how unnecessary making it public is in terms of Mac Jones's football life / abilities. And as a PR move, it's essentially career suicide.

Let's accept for a moment that Bill treated him poorly, barely communicated with him, and froze him out. Let's stipulate that Patricia was incompetent and Judge did Sean McDermott cosplay--in each case driving Mac understandably batty. None of us really know what went on, after all. There may well have been things various coaches could have done that might have helped him play better.

However, there's nothing, nothing at all to be gained from making his discontent public. He sucked last year, mostly sucked in 2022, and (as @Two Youks pointed out) an arguably less talented (certainly not markedly more talented) backup routinely played more competitive football than he did over the last two seasons. So buckle down and try to improve--try to salvage your professional life by committing to getting better. After all, the Pats are under new football management. There's a chance to start again. Or would be if he cared as much about playing QB than he does making ham-handed attempts to repair his image.

I don't know about this. I mean, reporters report, and we all want to know what was going on behind the scenes the last few years.

 

[Andy Merchant]

This all makes Mac showing up to Bill's final presser in workout gear even more puzzling. Sounds like it was one final middle finger.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

This all makes Mac showing up to Bill's final presser in workout gear even more puzzling. Sounds like it was one final middle finger.

That was the Mayo Intro, not BB's last presser

 

[Andy Merchant]

That was the Mayo Intro, not BB's last presser

D'oh, you're right!

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Put me on team "both things can be true".

Mac sucked, and has handled adversity in the NFL in pretty much the worst possible way, culminating with that ridiculous self-serving article which he probably thinks makes him look good or at least like a martyr but actually makes him look like a clueless goober. And I want him off the team yesterday.

All of that said I think BB's ability to put players in the proverbial doghouse and hold grudges over things like Mac going outside of the organization when he was frustrated with Patricia last year is yet another data point that it was time for Bill to go. Given that BB elected to go into 2024 with Mac and Zappe as QB options with Mac as the presumed starter, I would think that trying to fix that relationship would have been worth trying rather than further freezing him out. And if Bill already knew that Mac sucked (or didn't have it mentally or physically to play in the NFL) after what looked like a promising rookie year, then he should have brought in more than just Bailey Zappe to try to compete for the job.

I agree with you and I know I'm in the minority but BB refused to even say Mac's name in the off-season, he never brought in a legit QB talent to compete, he released Zappe, BB was at fault here for the last 2 seasons. I've said it here multiple times but he didn't even have a backup plan when Brady left, which BB didn't think would happen based on recent reports, he signed Newton late in the summer, he had no plan at all and then had no OC plan after McDaniels left, which everyone saw coming,

BB's last 4 years as a Head of Football Operations or whatever you want to call it was terrible. Mac Jones sucked, he's a brat, he can't overcome adversity, we all agree. BB made it worse with the duo of shit "coordinators" in 2022 and based on reports he thought it was getting better at the end of 2022 and wanted to run back with Matt & Judge in 2023.

Mac has been terrible, he's also been setup to fail so it's not mutually exclusive. The reason this franchise is in a complete mess is because of BB and I was a BB over Brady guy. I think BB is the GOAT of coaches but he's left a mess.

 

[54thMA]

This is where I fall.

Yup, me too.

That kid was toast as soon as he went outside the organization after Belichick saddled him with two nitwits to run the offense.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

double post

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

do we really think the OL wasn't a problem? That the receivers dropping balls weren't a problem? That the running game drying up wasn't a problem? How is any of that on Mac?

The stats sites seem to think the Pats OL was middle of the pack or better in pass protection the last 2 years. This year they were below average overall, but it was the blocking for the running game that dragged them down. And yes, Mac gets at least some of the blame for the running game drying up, considering that teams figured out that they could just load the box and he couldn't make them pay with his arm.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Ahh, I knew you’d show up here, esp. when I said that.

Is it really controversial to say that the NEP offense devolved into a dysfunctional mess the last two years? Even if we have some disagreements as to who is chiefly to blame, do we really think the OL wasn't a problem? That the receivers dropping balls weren't a problem? That the running game drying up wasn't a problem? How is any of that on Mac?

I honestly have no idea whether Mac is the worst quarterback of all time or not. What I do feel pretty confident in saying is that he was poorly served by the team the last few years and wasn't put in a position to succeed. And where I initially thought that was maybe some bad OL health luck and bad timing with Josh leaving in Year 2, I've come to believe that Bill kind of screwed the pooch when it came to roster building and building a deep bench of coaches on the offensive side of the ball.

We can debate that on other threads but the idea that he handed the keys of some Cadillac Coup Deville offense to Mac Jones and he just pissed it all away seems pretty hard to believe. If that makes me a "Mac Defender" to perpetuity, so be it. I've been called worse things.

OL wasn't great, mediocre in 2022, pretty bad in 2023. But.... the WRs dropping balls was definitely not a problem, they had the 8th FEWEST drops in the NFL in 2023 (11th in percentage) and were right around league average in 2022.

Mac's weaknesses exacerabated problems in the offense without much doubt. Teams packed the short middle because they didn't fear anything downfield or to the sidelines, even WR screens were harder. That, added to Mac's lack of ability to identify and feel rushes meant that teams were able to run blitzes and stunts consistently to make it hard on the O-line knowing that they were covered on the normal blitz beaters.

 

[jk333]

That kid was toast as soon as he went outside the organization after Belichick saddled him with two nitwits to run the offense.

If Patricia and Judge are nitwits, what does that make O’Brien?

Team offense, 2021 vs. 2022 vs. 2023, League Rankings

Yards: 15th vs. 26th vs. 30th
Scoring: 6th vs. 17th vs. 31st
Yards per play: 11th vs. 19th vs. 29th

The team was better on offense in 2022. The criticism of Patrica and Judge is such a crutch. The Patriots brought in a new OC in 2023 and the offense got worse. It was a 3 year trend that never changed.

The real reason the offense is so bad is that Mac stinks and Belichik inexplicably doubled down on him this season with no other QB option he was willing to use. As @NortheasternPJ points out, this repeats his handling of QB in 2020 where there was (again) no plan.

Secondly, the players around Mac were worse. Whether you blame losing Jakobi or the offensive line, the players were worse. And Mac wasn’t making anyone better. But, the two coordinators are just a punching bag who, if anything, performed perfectly fine.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

If Patricia and Judge are nitwits, what does that make O’Brien?

Team offense, 2021 vs. 2022 vs. 2023, League Rankings

Yards: 15th vs. 26th vs. 30th
Scoring: 6th vs. 17th vs. 31st
Yards per play: 11th vs. 19th vs. 29th

The team was better on offense in 2022. The criticism of Patrica and Judge is such a crutch. The Patriots brought in a new OC in 2023 and the offense got worse. It was a 3 year trend that never changed.

The real reason the offense is so bad is that Mac stinks and Belichik inexplicably doubled down on him this season with no other QB option he was willing to use. As @NortheasternPJ points out, this repeats his handling of QB in 2020 where there was (again) no plan.

Secondly, the players around Mac were worse. Whether you blame losing Jakobi or the offensive line, the players were worse. And Mac wasn’t making anyone better. But, the two coordinators are just a punching bag who, if anything, performed perfectly fine.

I was 100% wrong with Bill O’Brien. Mac was broken but BoB and the offense this year was a mess.

 

[jk333]

I was 100% wrong with Bill O’Brien. Mac was broken but BoB and the offense this year was a mess.

He wasn’t the answer because OC wasn’t the problem- in my opinion. They needed better players.

 

[lexrageorge]

I was 100% wrong with Bill O’Brien. Mac was broken but BoB and the offense this year was a mess.

No coach could fix that offense. Mac, WR, OL were all bad, although the latter improved as the year went on.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

Counterpoint: there is a non-zero percent chance Belichick mishandled this relationship and crushed the kid's confidence for reasons we may not ever fully understand.

I get that we are on a message board and are sad that our historic coach got canned after a really shitty season. And I understand we are all world renowned experts at reading body language and parsing press conference language. But all the evidence points to the responsibility for this, at a minimum, being at least partly in Belichick's lap. For the millionth time:

• What if Bill hadn't made a failed HC and defensive guy Mac's offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach in year 2?
• What if Bill had put receivers around Mac who didn't need a scheme to get open?
• What if Bill had drafted and/or signed OL help in 2022 and 2023?
• What if Bill hadn't frozen Mac out for seeking offensive coaching input from people other than offensive super geniuses Matt Patricia and Joe Judge?

I'm not a "Mac Defender" -- and I'm not saying Mac is blameless here. The article says that he started freelancing when everything went to shit with the receivers and he got down on himself.

But I'm also not a "Bill Belichick Got Fired And It Was All One Player's Fault" guy. I mean, this story has teammates and staff saying positive things about Mac's character explaining away a lot of the bad things he did as understandable, and stories of him playing hurt and making mistakes when Vedarian Lowe completely whiffs on blocks. And then when posters read stories about him working hard when he got demoted and concluding, "OH SO ***THAT'S*** WHEN MAC STARTED WORKING HARD?!?"

At some point during the last 3 years--from drafting Mac, to having zero plan for when Josh inevitably left, to shopping in the bargain basement --Bill fucked this up. Hell, I'd guess he would admit that himself, since he always fell on the sword for the team's failures and said responsibility lied with him. It's one of the things I respected most about Bill at the end of the day. He owned his team's mistakes.

I'm ready to move on to 2024 and whatever comes next post-Mac, and I'm not really ready to debate all this crap for the 100th time. But people need to stop being babies about this. Mac failed as a QB here in significant part because Bill's system was a dysfunctional mess. That the QB wasn't strong enough to persevere is too bad but it's not indicative of him being some terrible person.

I fully expect 70% of the board to beat the shit out of me for saying this but I don't care. Bill owns this mess, period.

+ 1 times Avogadro's Number. This is where I am. It's silly to completely exonerate BB from this mess. Just as it's silly to pretend Mac is purely a victim of the shitty situation leadership - on the field and off. It's like that Simpsons school sign: "Parent-Teacher Night - Let's Share the Blame!"

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

As for "career suicide," that may be hyperbole but it's not entirely off the mark. I'm not sure what Mac's strategy is here. Did anyone listen to Curran's interview with Mac's QB coach? A lot of passive-aggressive excuse-making and oblique references to lack of protection (true, but still...) and dearth of weapons (also true, but also, still...) It's such a bad fucking look to have your personal QB guru (since you were 11 years old) go on with a member of the media and make comments that, while accurate, most DEFINITELY came from you.

 

[Cellar-Door]

As for "career suicide," that may be hyperbole but it's not entirely off the mark. I'm not sure what Mac's strategy is here. Did anyone listen to Curran's interview with Mac's QB coach? A lot of passive-aggressive excuse-making and oblique references to lack of protection (true, but still...) and dearth of weapons (also true, but also, still...) It's such a bad fucking look to have your personal QB guru (since you were 11 years old) go on with a member of the media and make comments that, while accurate, most DEFINITELY came from you.

More importantly... the rest of the league isn't dumb. They know who the Patriots collection of #2 and #3 WRs are. They know that both tackles are going to be among the top FA targets this spring at the position. Was it the best collection of offensive talent... nope, but it also wasn't the kind of horror-show people like to pretend. This was just a regular bad offense, not even close to the worst non-QB talent in the league (bottom 5- 10 probably?), and if Mac can't even be vaguely competent in that situation.... well that means he's not a positive NFL QB, he's a negative one.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

I think the Patriots offense, their talent in terms of protections and playmakers, was indeed approaching a horror-show. Their OL was shitty AND injured, their playmakers were garbage, Mac and Zappe were terrible and the offense averaged 13.9 points per game. That is abominable.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think the Patriots offense, their talent in terms of protections and playmakers, was indeed approaching a horror-show. Their OL was shitty AND injured, their playmakers were garbage, Mac and Zappe were terrible and the offense averaged 13.9 points per game. That is abominable.

Sure... for periods they were injured last year, but talent.... there are worse O-lines in the league on talent, quite a few. As to the playmakers.. they have no #1, but all those guys were fine other places, Juju was the #2 target (#1 WR) for the team that won the SuperBowl last year, he was terrible here but that was not a talent issue.

The offense was horrendous in 2023 and bad in 2022, but a huge part of both years was QB play, to try and whine that you couldn't possibly have been expected to be even decent with that talent means you have no ability to elevate players around you, and in fact you clearly made guys look worse as compared to their previous teams.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

I don't disagree that QBs played a key role in the offense sucking. Obviously they do. But, IMO, Parker, Jonnu-Jonnu and any Patriots WRs not nicknamed "Pop" are absolutely not fine now, regardless of how they were in the past. Yes, it could be that they were worse here b/c the QB play/OL/playcalling was so bad, but isn't it possible it's ALSO that they're older, more injured, slowing down and just not as good anymore?

 

[Cellar-Door]

I don't disagree that QBs played a key role in the offense sucking. Obviously they do. But, IMO, Parker, Jonnu-Jonnu and any Patriots WRs not nicknamed "Pop" are absolutely not fine now, regardless of how they were in the past. Yes, it could be that they were worse here b/c the QB play/OL/playcalling was so bad, but isn't it possible it's ALSO that they're older, more injured, slowing down and just not as good anymore?

Possible... maybe some? But do I think Juju fell off a cliff over like 8 weeks of time off after the Superbowl... no. Bourne is a perfectly capable WR, Henry is still a solid TE. If every single passcatcher looks worse with a QB than they did before, and the ones who leave often look better.... it's probably not that every single one of them got less talented.

Your Jonnu joke kind of makes the point, he left and was MUCH better, even with Desmond Ridder and Taylor Heinecke as his QBs. Now some of that is fit, maybe some playcalling too.... but it clearly wasn't a talent issue for him here.

The offense isn't good, the talent on offense isn't good, at best it's below average. But the point is... other QBs deal with bad talent years fine, and they don't go on press tours about how it's all the dastardly teammates, the ones who never called him out in the press despite every opportunity and despite him being terrible.

You think Kendrick Bourne going into a contract year wouldn't have liked to have a QB who didn't have piss running down his leg every time the opponent sent 6 guys? You think Rham wasn't a bit annoyed that he was facing a loaded box every possession?

The point wasn't that Mac is the only problem. It's that Mac is the one whose people are doing a press tour trying to throw any and everyone under the bus because he can't handle adversity. I mean, Bryce Young was on a way worse roster as a rookie, don't see his QB coach going around giving interviews about it. I mean we have seen worse supporting casts all over the league repeatedly.... I don't think I've ever seen a player's people spend so much time going to the press to whine and complain and shift blame to teammates.

 

[Super Nomario]

He wasn’t the answer because OC wasn’t the problem- in my opinion. They needed better players.

The lack of moves to address, well, anything in the offseason was just bizarre. They let Wynn walk and replaced him with similar mediocrities in old Riley Reiff and Calvin Anderson. They let Meyers walk and replaced him with JuJu, which was essentially lateral on paper I guess. How was this team going to get better with the same crappy players?

And Mac stinks, and for long stretches of the last two years was the single biggest problem, even on an offense with a whole lot of problems.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

The lack of moves to address, well, anything in the offseason was just bizarre. They let Wynn walk and replaced him with similar mediocrities in old Riley Reiff and Calvin Anderson. They let Meyers walk and replaced him with JuJu, which was essentially lateral on paper I guess. How was this team going to get better with the same crappy players?

And Mac stinks, and for long stretches of the last two years was the single biggest problem, even on an offense with a whole lot of problems.

IIRC, replacing Patricia with BoB was supposed to be worth a few wins on it’s own.

 

[Super Nomario]

IIRC, replacing Patricia with BoB was supposed to be worth a few wins on it’s own.

I think this was always a ridiculous idea.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think this was always a ridiculous idea.

hope is a hell of a drug. It was easy to look at two guys with limited offensive backgrounds, declare them the problem and hope that actually Mac was going to get better, and the line would improve, etc.

 

[twibnotes]

I am not a fan of Jones but this was a clusterfuck all over. To be the lowest-scoring offense in the NFL, a lot of things have to go wrong. Everyone with a frontal lobe has been saying they needed to upgrade the offensive tackles and WRs since Brady's last year in NE. The drafting, development, and coaching on offense were dreadful the last two years.

I’m a huge mac detractor too but NOTHING is 100 pct one thing. You’ve really dug in on the notion that’s it’s ALL Mac, but there are a lot of clear signs that BB made plenty of lousy decisions.

edit: sorry Shane Trot. I meant to reply to SJH’s comment that it was “100 pct” on Mac

 

[twibnotes]

Put me on team "both things can be true".

Mac sucked, and has handled adversity in the NFL in pretty much the worst possible way, culminating with that ridiculous self-serving article which he probably thinks makes him look good or at least like a martyr but actually makes him look like a clueless goober. And I want him off the team yesterday.

All of that said I think BB's ability to put players in the proverbial doghouse and hold grudges over things like Mac going outside of the organization when he was frustrated with Patricia last year is yet another data point that it was time for Bill to go. Given that BB elected to go into 2024 with Mac and Zappe as QB options with Mac as the presumed starter, I would think that trying to fix that relationship would have been worth trying rather than further freezing him out. And if Bill already knew that Mac sucked (or didn't have it mentally or physically to play in the NFL) after what looked like a promising rookie year, then he should have brought in more than just Bailey Zappe to try to compete for the job.

Amen

Even Tom fucking Brady was tired of BB riding his ass.

BB is the goat but everything he does ain’t perfect

 

[BaseballJones]

I think this was always a ridiculous idea.

I didn't think it was ridiculous.

The offense under Patricia was pretty bad and had all kinds of problems. It was clear that that arrangement didn't work. Even still, NE had a bunch of games last year that they could have won with just a slightly better offensive effort. BOB was a highly respected offensive guy and it wasn't crazy at all to think that they could improve offensively, and it wouldn't have taken much improvement to increase their win total a couple of games.

Obviously it didn't work at all, but I didn't think it was ridiculous.

Turned out to be, of course.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Amen

Even Tom fucking Brady was tired of BB riding his ass.

BB is the goat but everything he does ain’t perfect

And before Brady, Gronk got sick of it.

That being said, an incredible incredible run and frankly, it’s amazing that it last as long as it did. I’m sure there’s an alternate universe where things get shitty long before 2015 and the Pats “only” win 3.

Hell, the fact that they played 9 super bowls and 8 of them were one score games is pretty hard to fathom too.

 

[SWHB]

Possible... maybe some? But do I think Juju fell off a cliff over like 8 weeks of time off after the Superbowl... no. Bourne is a perfectly capable WR, Henry is still a solid TE. If every single passcatcher looks worse with a QB than they did before, and the ones who leave often look better.... it's probably not that every single one of them got less talented.

Your Jonnu joke kind of makes the point, he left and was MUCH better, even with Desmond Ridder and Taylor Heinecke as his QBs. Now some of that is fit, maybe some playcalling too.... but it clearly wasn't a talent issue for him here.

The offense isn't good, the talent on offense isn't good, at best it's below average. But the point is... other QBs deal with bad talent years fine, and they don't go on press tours about how it's all the dastardly teammates, the ones who never called him out in the press despite every opportunity and despite him being terrible.

You think Kendrick Bourne going into a contract year wouldn't have liked to have a QB who didn't have piss running down his leg every time the opponent sent 6 guys? You think Rham wasn't a bit annoyed that he was facing a loaded box every possession?

The point wasn't that Mac is the only problem. It's that Mac is the one whose people are doing a press tour trying to throw any and everyone under the bus because he can't handle adversity. I mean, Bryce Young was on a way worse roster as a rookie, don't see his QB coach going around giving interviews about it. I mean we have seen worse supporting casts all over the league repeatedly.... I don't think I've ever seen a player's people spend so much time going to the press to whine and complain and shift blame to teammates.

The weird thing is that when the OL was truly execrable, Jones actually looked okay (not good, but perhaps roughly middle-of-the-road). Once the OL started getting folks back from injury and gelling as a unit, Jones seemed to mentally break down further each week until he became completely unplayable. It also makes the Zappe comparisons harder, because Jones had to play more games with the terrible patchwork line, but by the time Zappe took over Jones was playing at an unbelievably low level.

Regarding JJSS, though, I think his falling off of a cliff isn't as unlikely as you make it out to be, because he injured his knee before last year's AFC championship.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Forgive me, but I thought I read somewhere that before the season BB wanted to dump/bench Mac and sign Baker and Kraft nixed it? Am I crazy?

 

[Reverend]

I don’t really give a shit about Mac and he was clearly awful and I’m a huge Belichick guy, but man, I’m getting strong Not Over His Break-Up With His Ex And Probably Shouldn’t Be Dating Again Yet vibes from Bill.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

I don’t really give a shit about Mac and he was clearly awful and I’m a huge Belichick guy, but man, I’m getting strong Not Over His Break-Up With His Ex And Probably Shouldn’t Be Dating Again Yet vibes from Bill.

Not having a new job will probably exacerbate those kind of feelings from BB. That he's left without a dance partner isn't a great look for him (though there's still time!)

 

[nighthob]

Forgive me, but I thought I read somewhere that before the season BB wanted to dump/bench Mac and sign Baker and Kraft nixed it? Am I crazy?

That was my memory. He wanted to move on from Macaroni. And he was 100% right. Harry cost us Tom Brady and Macaroni cost us Belichick. If Belichick just takes AJ Brown Brady retires a Patriot with a couple more titles under his belt. So N'Keal probably edges out Macaroni as the worst pick. I can't really fault the Pats for taking Macaroni, because you do need a QB. In retrospect I so wish those rumors about the Niners taking Jones #3 turned out to be true. It would have spared us so much misery.

 

[Salem's Lot]

Forgive me, but I thought I read somewhere that before the season BB wanted to dump/bench Mac and sign Baker and Kraft nixed it? Am I crazy?

I have never read this anywhere.

 

[rodderick]

Amen

Even Tom fucking Brady was tired of BB riding his ass.

BB is the goat but everything he does ain’t perfect

To be fair, it's a lot more understandable for a guy of Brady's stature to eventually grow tired of the "you're just one of 53" treatment than fucking Mac Jones, who was an actual nobody.

 

[Pat Spillane]

the

This sums it up pretty well, and nice WWI reference. BB is Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Mac (to some) is the assasin Gavrilo Princip. I think it is way more muddled than that and this post expresses that with refreshing brevity. Mac is, as it turns out, not mentally built for adverse times, but much of those hard times were created around him rather than by him (at least as it started to fall apart in 2022) and several not so great choices later (on both sides), here we are.

I feel BB was his own assasin and the weapons he comitted suicide with were Tyquan Thornton and N'Keal Harry

 

[BigJimEd]

Forgive me, but I thought I read somewhere that before the season BB wanted to dump/bench Mac and sign Baker and Kraft nixed it? Am I crazy?

This was reported by ESPN and others.

Belichick wanted to trade Mac and sign Mayfield but was pressured by the Kraft family to keep Mac. So yeah a lot of the complaints in this thread are directed at the wrong person.

 

[Super Nomario]

The line about one of the greatest rookie seasons ever was also a nice touch. And maybe it’s statistically true by some metrics, but it was still a lovely addition.

Mac's camp must have that as a condition for writers using them as a source, right? No one actually believes this?

I didn't think it was ridiculous.

The offense under Patricia was pretty bad and had all kinds of problems. It was clear that that arrangement didn't work. Even still, NE had a bunch of games last year that they could have won with just a slightly better offensive effort. BOB was a highly respected offensive guy and it wasn't crazy at all to think that they could improve offensively, and it wouldn't have taken much improvement to increase their win total a couple of games.

Obviously it didn't work at all, but I didn't think it was ridiculous.

Turned out to be, of course.

Slightly improving the offense to in the neighborhood of average in the hopes of eking out a couple more games, I can see. Actually having a good offense this year, with these players, was never realistic.

I think the lessons here are: 1) when you're bad in a sport as complex as football, there are most likely multiple reasons you are bad. If your hopes for improvement fixate on one thing (and I'm looking at the 2023 Jets as well as the Patriots), you're going to have a bad time. 2) It's the players that play. You gotta get better players. Coaching is only going to take you so far.

That was my memory. He wanted to move on from Macaroni. And he was 100% right. Harry cost us Tom Brady and Macaroni cost us Belichick. If Belichick just takes AJ Brown Brady retires a Patriot with a couple more titles under his belt. So N'Keal probably edges out Macaroni as the worst pick. I can't really fault the Pats for taking Macaroni, because you do need a QB. In retrospect I so wish those rumors about the Niners taking Jones #3 turned out to be true. It would have spared us so much misery.

If Belichick really did want to move on from Mac, I don't really understand last offseason. Why not get a better backup alternative than Zappe? Why not add more help in the skill positions or OL if you don't think Mac is that good, to compensate for Mac's shortcomings?

 

[lexrageorge]

It was in the Seth Wickersham article, which is quoted below (I couldn't find a free version of the original):

https://atozsports.com/new-england-patriots/patriots-bill-belichick-robert-kraft-mac-jones/#:~:text=Coaching staff decisions&text=According to the report, Belichick,under a new offensive staff.&text=But Mac Jones' performance in 2023 was even worse.

"During offseason planning meetings, Belichick later told people in the building, he raised the idea to the Krafts of trading quarterback Mac Jones. The Krafts had embraced Jones after he was drafted in the first round in 2021, hoping to build something close to a Brady-like relationship with him. Jones played well as a rookie under then-coordinator McDaniels, then regressed in 2022 under Belichick's patchwork offensive staff. Ownership argued against trading him, wanting to see what Jones could do with O'Brien calling plays, which this past week they denied saying through a team spokesperson. Belichick technically could have traded Jones, but he ceded to his bosses. Longtime observers of the Patriots noticed a disconnect in training camp, when Belichick in news conferences almost went out of his way to not compliment Jones."

It's ironic to think that Bill was dead right on this one, but was fired ostensibly for making bad personnel decisions.