The Red Sox have fired Chaim Bloom

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Rovin Romine

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Blaming a talent gap purely on the person who drafted them and not the person (or person's people) who fostered it seems very short sighted.
Is that you Ben?

Cherrington had 3 years to develop his 2012 class. They sucked. Despite the state of the art environment or whatever. https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=BOS&year_ID=2012&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_year

Ditto 2013, except for Devers.

Ditto 2014.

Ditto 2015, except for Benintendi.

If you want to show me that 2016/17 draft guys somehow soldiered through the horror of the DD development system before making it to the majors, via the enlightened Bloom era that's on you to prove.

But I don't see it in the numbers.
 

BringBackMo

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The SoxProspects boys theorized on today's podcast that Bloom was too rigid in his valuations on trades/acquisitions which led to the appearance of indecisiveness. They posit that he was not getting the deal he wanted, and so didn't take deals that were still good values and good moves for the team.
They were talking very specifically about the deals he is said to have received for selling current major leaguers and getting prospects in return. They talked specifically about Sale and Paxton, saying they'd heard that there were offers on the table for good prospects for them, but that Bloom wanted more prospects than were offered. In no way were they suggesting--as you are indicating--that he was unwilling to trade AWAY prospects. These are two entirely different concepts.
 

ookami7m

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They were talking very specifically about the deals he is said to have received for selling current major leaguers and getting prospects in return. They talked specifically about Sale and Paxton, saying they'd heard that there were offers on the table for good prospects for them, but that Bloom wanted more prospects than were offered. In no way were they suggesting--as you are indicating--that he was unwilling to trade AWAY prospects. These are two entirely different concepts.
I don't mention prospects anywhere in my post.....
 

Fishercat

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Is that you Ben?

Cherrington had 3 years to develop his 2012 class. They sucked. Despite the state of the art environment or whatever. https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=BOS&year_ID=2012&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_year

Ditto 2013, except for Devers.

Ditto 2014.

Ditto 2015, except for Benintendi.

If you want to show me that 2016/17 draft guys somehow soldiered through the horror of the DD development system before making it to the majors, via the enlightened Bloom era that's on you to prove.

But I don't see it in the numbers.
I think I've made my point clearly and if you don't want to engage that that's your choice and I'll stop trying.
 

BravesField

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I see a good number of holes. I'd say they need 2-3 starting pitchers, upgrade at 2B, a decision to make in RF long-term, and defensive issues all over the field. Top 5 farm system is debatable, but the system is in a much better spot than when Bloom got here that is for sure. They've got some pieces to like long-term, but they've got a long ways to go in order to become a true championship contender.
I'm not so sure with your pessimistic view of "a long ways to go". That's sounds a lot like 3 years out. I'm thinking that you just don't know from year to year what can happen. I don't know anyone who had Baltimore going from 4th to 1st this year. Nor anyone had NYY falling so far, so fast. Ditto S.D., St.L,

I do hope you're wrong. I do not want to wait multiple years to contend.
 

RedOctober3829

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I'm not so sure with your pessimistic view of "a long ways to go". That's sounds a lot like 3 years out. I'm thinking that you just don't know from year to year what can happen. I don't know anyone who had Baltimore going from 4th to 1st this year. Nor anyone had NYY falling so far, so fast. Ditto S.D., St.L,

I do hope you're wrong. I do not want to wait multiple years to contend.
As much as you think it's pessimistic if they do go out and get, say, Yamamoto and Snell, the timeline isn't 3 years. Defense and starting pitching are their two biggest issues to address. If you're telling me that you put this year's starting lineup out there and we have a top 3 of Snell, Yamamoto, and Bello I think that's a playoff team. It's bold to try to go after 2 of those guys, but if you want to win and you have nothing in the way of immediate SP help coming up from minors that's the way you have to do it.
 

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What depresses me is that if the Sox had hired Sam Hinkie in fall 2019, they'd be in a better position today. They wouldn't have had that 2021 ALCS run, and they wouldn't have had any competitive baseball in 2022 and 2023. But those years are all sunk now anyway. 2021 came thisclose to not even happening. So while the org is in better shape than it was in 2019, it's not nearly in the position that it could be in if they just went all-in on the rebuild. I can't lay the blame solely on Chaim for this, obviously. This team could be set up for an Astros or Rays type of run. Instead, while there is hope, they are still several significant pieces away from being a legit contender IMO.
 

Rovin Romine

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I think I've made my point clearly and if you don't want to engage that that's your choice and I'll stop trying.
It's your thesis. If you want to back it up with some numbers-based showing of a decline in prospect development across the 2015/2016 and the 2019/2020 thresholds go for it. I'd be genuinely curious to see what you find.

I suspect the second would be complicated by COVID though.
 

BigSoxFan

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As much as you think it's pessimistic if they do go out and get, say, Yamamoto and Snell, the timeline isn't 3 years. Defense and starting pitching are their two biggest issues to address. If you're telling me that you put this year's starting lineup out there and we have a top 3 of Snell, Yamamoto, and Bello I think that's a playoff team. It's bold to try to go after 2 of those guys, but if you want to win and you have nothing in the way of immediate SP help coming up from minors that's the way you have to do it.
They could also trade prospects for a SP, no? If a quality SP with multiple years of control comes on the market, I’d certainly consider it. Just hard to imagine this ownership group spending on 2 big FA SPs.
 

BringBackMo

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I don't mention prospects anywhere in my post.....
The post you were responding directly to stated that when you don't trade prospects, of course your system gets stronger.

70947

If I am misunderstanding, or if that wasn't the post you meant to respond to, then my apologies.
 

8slim

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Heard on the 98.5 afternoon sports radio show (which is the only 5 minutes I’ve heard of that show in several years) that Rob Bradford reported Bloom turned down a deal for Sale at the deadline in 2022 where the Rangers were going to take on his entire salary and give back a couple of middling prospects. Bloom turned it down because the prospects weren’t to his liking.

Now, it’s quite possible this is entirely BS.

If it isn’t? Ooooofahhhh.
 

DeadlySplitter

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What depresses me is that if the Sox had hired Sam Hinkie in fall 2019, they'd be in a better position today. They wouldn't have had that 2021 ALCS run, and they wouldn't have had any competitive baseball in 2022 and 2023. But those years are all sunk now anyway. 2021 came thisclose to not even happening. So while the org is in better shape than it was in 2019, it's not nearly in the position that it could be in if they just went all-in on the rebuild. I can't lay the blame solely on Chaim for this, obviously. This team could be set up for an Astros or Rays type of run. Instead, while there is hope, they are still several significant pieces away from being a legit contender IMO.
Why is this a guarantee? Who knows if they pick the same prospects, get the same FAs, trade those FAs at the deadline, etc.
 

Beomoose

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Heard on the 98.5 afternoon sports radio show (which is the only 5 minutes I’ve heard of that show in several years) that Rob Bradford reported Bloom turned down a deal for Sale at the deadline in 2022 where the Rangers were going to take on his entire salary and give back a couple of middling prospects. Bloom turned it down because the prospects weren’t to his liking.

Now, it’s quite possible this is entirely BS.

If it isn’t? Ooooofahhhh.
It speaks to the ownership's belief in Bloom that they kept him around after that kind fuckup.
 

simplicio

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Heard on the 98.5 afternoon sports radio show (which is the only 5 minutes I’ve heard of that show in several years) that Rob Bradford reported Bloom turned down a deal for Sale at the deadline in 2022 where the Rangers were going to take on his entire salary and give back a couple of middling prospects. Bloom turned it down because the prospects weren’t to his liking.

Now, it’s quite possible this is entirely BS.

If it isn’t? Ooooofahhhh.
I'd have much rather he paid salary and gotten good prospects. If the Rangers wouldn't go for that, how does Sale's salary hurt us in 2022-24? Sale's upside (in 2022 terms) is much higher than middling prospects.
 

tims4wins

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Heard on the 98.5 afternoon sports radio show (which is the only 5 minutes I’ve heard of that show in several years) that Rob Bradford reported Bloom turned down a deal for Sale at the deadline in 2022 where the Rangers were going to take on his entire salary and give back a couple of middling prospects. Bloom turned it down because the prospects weren’t to his liking.

Now, it’s quite possible this is entirely BS.

If it isn’t? Ooooofahhhh.
In the immortal words of Eck - yuck.
 

AB in DC

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Two prospects, correct....and the reason he got those prospects was because he took on a bad contract. The bad contract which isn't being mentioned in multiple posts that are talking about other posters being "obsessed" with Renfroe and that it wasn't that bad of a trade.
A bad contract that singlehanded ruined Bloom's ability to get under the luxury tax cap for the year. Which then prevented the team from spending money in 2023. while putting up 290 PAs of sub-replacement hitting and playing an OF spot that completely neutralized his defense strength.

All to pick up two prospects who are both unlikely to be anything more than organizational depth.

If anyone starts a "Bloom's worst deal" thread, this is #1 on the list and it's not even close.
 

dhappy42

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Heard on the 98.5 afternoon sports radio show (which is the only 5 minutes I’ve heard of that show in several years) that Rob Bradford reported Bloom turned down a deal for Sale at the deadline in 2022 where the Rangers were going to take on his entire salary and give back a couple of middling prospects. Bloom turned it down because the prospects weren’t to his liking.

Now, it’s quite possible this is entirely BS.

If it isn’t? Ooooofahhhh.
Sale has a no-trade clause.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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It speaks to the ownership's belief in Bloom that they kept him around after that kind fuckup.
And if Sale goes to Texas and doesn't get hit by a line drive and doesn't break his wrist falling off a bike, and instead makes 10-12 starts with a 3.50 ERA to help the Rangers make a run at the playoffs, not to mention has a decent season this year, how pissed is ownership if/when those prospects bust?

Also, all that assumes Sale would have wanted to go to Texas in the first place (no-trade).
 

simplicio

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Even if we'd gotten under in 2022, it wouldn't have made sense to be over this year. Better to maximize the reset window to coincide with the actual window.
A bad contract that singlehanded ruined Bloom's ability to get under the luxury tax cap for the year. Which then prevented the team from spending money in 2023. while putting up 290 PAs of sub-replacement hitting and playing an OF spot that completely neutralized his defense strength.

All to pick up two prospects who are both unlikely to be anything more than organizational depth.

If anyone starts a "Bloom's worst deal" thread, this is #1 on the list and it's not even close.
 

shawnrbu

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Sale broke his finger on July 17, 2022. Unless the trade offer was before that date, I don’t see why a team would have traded for his contract at the 2022 deadline.
 

8slim

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I'd have much rather he paid salary and gotten good prospects. If the Rangers wouldn't go for that, how does Sale's salary hurt us in 2022-24? Sale's upside (in 2022 terms) is much higher than middling prospects.
Man, all I’ve read here for a couple years running is how Sale’s deal is killing us. And maybe I’m alone on this, but I’ve been out on Sale for a while, certainly well before the deadline last season.

I’d have literally sold him for 50 cents on the dollar. Getting anyone for him AND the other team taking on his entire salary. I couldn’t say YES fast enough.
 

RedOctober3829

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They could also trade prospects for a SP, no? If a quality SP with multiple years of control comes on the market, I’d certainly consider it. Just hard to imagine this ownership group spending on 2 big FA SPs.
They could, yes. But, they need ace level pitching and that would take premium prospects and I don't want to all of a sudden dealing off Mayer and Anthony types. They've got the money to go out and spend. This is supposedly why they went under the luxury tax this year is to go back over it next year.
 

RedOctober3829

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And if Sale goes to Texas and doesn't get hit by a line drive and doesn't break his wrist falling off a bike, and instead makes 10-12 starts with a 3.50 ERA to help the Rangers make a run at the playoffs, not to mention has a decent season this year, how pissed is ownership if/when those prospects bust?

Also, all that assumes Sale would have wanted to go to Texas in the first place (no-trade).
The trade offer was made while Sale was on the IL after falling off his bike IIRC. The Rangers were that desperate for pitching that they wanted to take an injured(at that time oft-injured) guy with a ton of money left and pay the whole freight. From the owner's perspective, it would have saved them a lot of money but would they have re-invested that in the team? From Bloom's perspective, can he pick up a pitcher off the market with the kind of upside Sale has? We know what won out now.
 

bosockboy

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The trade offer was made while Sale was on the IL after falling off his bike IIRC. The Rangers were that desperate for pitching that they wanted to take an injured(at that time oft-injured) guy with a ton of money left and pay the whole freight. From the owner's perspective, it would have saved them a lot of money but would they have re-invested that in the team? From Bloom's perspective, can he pick up a pitcher off the market with the kind of upside Sale has? We know what won out now.
In theory, you could’ve resigned Eovaldi with that money.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The trade offer was made while Sale was on the IL after falling off his bike IIRC. The Rangers were that desperate for pitching that they wanted to take an injured(at that time oft-injured) guy with a ton of money left and pay the whole freight. From the owner's perspective, it would have saved them a lot of money but would they have re-invested that in the team? From Bloom's perspective, can he pick up a pitcher off the market with the kind of upside Sale has? We know what won out now.
At least the bolded checks out considering who the Rangers spent money on last winter.
 

67YAZ

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Heard on the 98.5 afternoon sports radio show (which is the only 5 minutes I’ve heard of that show in several years) that Rob Bradford reported Bloom turned down a deal for Sale at the deadline in 2022 where the Rangers were going to take on his entire salary and give back a couple of middling prospects. Bloom turned it down because the prospects weren’t to his liking.

Now, it’s quite possible this is entirely BS.

If it isn’t? Ooooofahhhh.
Smells like a well placed leak to ding Bloom’s rep on the way out the door. As this organization does.
 

astrozombie

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I don't believe that hypothetical Sale trade for a second. Ownership was going to get to save money? Bloom would get out from the Sale contract which has been (apparently) the largest single albatross contract in the history of baseball? And they didn't do it because Bloom... wasn't head over heels for the prospects? Unless Bloom was one of those people who believed that Sale was actually the 150 IP, 3.25-ERA, SP1/SP2 that some posters still (inexplicably) claim him to be, I have no idea why that deal does not get done. Instead, I suspect that is more in line with ownership's "smear the outgoing guy" campaign that they can't help but indulge when there is a change in leadership in order to justify their decision.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Possible that money saved during the year wouldn’t have been able to have been reinvested in the team, though. So at that point, if you think Sale can help and / or can still be flipped after the season, can understand not dumping him. It’s a gamble- like trading for JBJ, not dumping Paxton at the deadline, etc etc. All reasonable decisions on their own, but when you get enough of them wrong, you’ll lose the ability to make any more.
 

Fishercat

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Heard on the 98.5 afternoon sports radio show (which is the only 5 minutes I’ve heard of that show in several years) that Rob Bradford reported Bloom turned down a deal for Sale at the deadline in 2022 where the Rangers were going to take on his entire salary and give back a couple of middling prospects. Bloom turned it down because the prospects weren’t to his liking.

Now, it’s quite possible this is entirely BS.

If it isn’t? Ooooofahhhh.
Smells like a well placed leak to ding Bloom’s rep on the way out the door. As this organization does.
I’ll +1 both of these. If Bradford is fully correct and there’s no significant details missing that feels like malpractice to me, but it’s…interestingly timed we will say.
 

Marciano490

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Seems to me the picture being painted - who knows if it’s accurate - is of a guy who’s very good when a decision has to be made (drafting), or when the stakes are lower (Vazquez trade; Duvall and Turner signings), but can’t pull the trigger on big moves and hasn’t shown he can be a grandmaster overall planner.
 

RedOctober3829

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I don't believe that hypothetical Sale trade for a second. Ownership was going to get to save money? Bloom would get out from the Sale contract which has been (apparently) the largest single albatross contract in the history of baseball? And they didn't do it because Bloom... wasn't head over heels for the prospects? Unless Bloom was one of those people who believed that Sale was actually the 150 IP, 3.25-ERA, SP1/SP2 that some posters still (inexplicably) claim him to be, I have no idea why that deal does not get done. Instead, I suspect that is more in line with ownership's "smear the outgoing guy" campaign that they can't help but indulge when there is a change in leadership in order to justify their decision.
Except it jives with the inaction at the deadline this year with possible trades of Verdugo and Paxton.
 

JM3

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Going to scrap that whole post.

If the reports are true that Bloom could have traded 2 very underwater contracts in their entirety (Sale & JD) & got actual prospect returns, but scuttled them because the prospects weren't enough when what he would have been trading away had a negative value, that's NAGL, unless ownership vetoed it.

I don't think it's that likely because I don't think other teams would be dumb enough to do those things, but if they are, one should take advantage.
 

simplicio

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Man, all I’ve read here for a couple years running is how Sale’s deal is killing us. And maybe I’m alone on this, but I’ve been out on Sale for a while, certainly well before the deadline last season.

I’d have literally sold him for 50 cents on the dollar. Getting anyone for him AND the other team taking on his entire salary. I couldn’t say YES fast enough.
Sale's deal was killing us in 2019, and was a big part of why we had to dump Mookie and Price. Since then, it's been kind of irrelevant?

Dumping Sale for nothing doesn't serve any purpose really. He's a sunk cost and we don't need salary relief, so either get value for him or hold him to see if there's still some sliver of Chris Fucking Sale in there.
 

Fishercat

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Except it jives with the inaction at the deadline this year with possible trades of Verdugo and Paxton.
I feel like it's weird we are looping in Verdugo, a productive low cost starting OF with another year left with a rental and a contractual albatross. Extracting maximum value for Dugie makes more sense than the other two
 

Fishercat

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It’s not a sunk cost if the acquiring team is taking on his salary.

Would you rather have Sale or the $30M he gets paid?

All these stories coming out, if they are made up…by whom, and why? I know the reaction on here is that all this stuff is fake news…
An ownership group that wants to justify a decision that, however popular here, is being questioned heavily by other Sox fans, other fanbases, and notable media members (Passan and Law)? This is old hat for these kind of *leaks" to come out
 

soxhop411

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Alex Speier confirms the turner for Edward Cabrera
trade rumors that were floating around this trade deadline
View: https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1702811972096401753?s=46
This year, with the Sox 2½ games out of a wild-card spot, other teams remained unclear on whether the Sox were looking to add reinforcements to their team or willing to trade veterans to other clubs in the hours and minutes before the deadline to consummate deals.

Perhaps most notably, according to multiple major league sources, the Sox were deep in talks with the Marlins on the day of the deadline about a deal that would have sent Justin Turner to Miami for Edward Cabrera (a 25-year-old righthanded starter with a potentially dominant fastball) and more.

The team also had deals on the table for James Paxton — multiple industry officials said the Sox could have acquired major league-ready pitching, perhaps with the ceiling of a back-end starter, despite the known injury risks involving the lefthander — and Kenley Jansen.

In declining such deals, industry officials believe the Sox missed a major opportunity to put themselves in a much better spot for 2024 and beyond. That stance might have been understandable had the team instead made moves to pursue a long shot playoff push. But aside from the buy-low addition of Luis Urías, the team stood pat.

That approach added to fairly widespread frustration by officials of other clubs when it came to making trades with the Red Sox under Bloom, who was viewed as a difficult trade partner who overvalued his own players in ways that made it hard to move quickly

 

joe dokes

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From *our* perspective, we look back to "at the time" to see if moves/non-moves made sense or were defensible without too much mental gymnastics.. At least that's what I see in this thread.
But in taking stock in September of 2023, JWH and Co. don't really care if the moves made sense "at the time." On, balance they didn't work (or not enough of them did). That's enough to fire a guy, IMO.
 

Rovin Romine

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From *our* perspective, we look back to "at the time" to see if moves/non-moves made sense or were defensible without too much mental gymnastics.. At least that's what I see in this thread.
But in taking stock in September of 2023, JWH and Co. don't really care if the moves made sense "at the time." On, balance they didn't work (or not enough of them did). That's enough to fire a guy, IMO.
FWIW, my post means it makes zero sense for Texas to pick up an injured Chris Sale that year when there was no guarantee he'd make it back. . .and then would have to be ramped up.

It's possible that deal was offered. But it's more likely the deal was either something else, or a trial balloon or a figure of someone's imagination.
 

BigSoxFan

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You are correct. This makes zero sense. Sale was a maybe to come back in mid-September.
The Rangers were 41-49 on 7/17/22. If this offer actually happened, it would have been with 2023-2024 in mind. I wouldn’t do it but if you think you can get 2 years of a top starter for only salary and garbage prospects, it starts to make a little sense. But it would require a pretty unrealistic outlook for Sale’s 2023-2024 seasons, IMO.
 

MakMan44

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FWIW, my post means it makes zero sense for Texas to pick up an injured Chris Sale that year when there was no guarantee he'd make it back. . .and then would have to be ramped up.

It's possible that deal was offered. But it's more likely the deal was either something else, or a trial balloon or a figure of someone's imagination.
In theory, it could have also been a move for 2023. We just saw them overpay the Mets for pitching this deadline and if the price was right, I could see how getting Sale last season for a song could make sense.
 
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