The Red Sox have fired Chaim Bloom

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Auger34

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From Fangraphs
"Imagine trading Mookie Betts. Chaim Bloom must have done that, must have considered all of the angles and potential outcomes of such a move, including the possibility that he would be saddled with it as his legacy — then sold principal owner John Henry on a vision of the Red Sox without the superstar right fielder in order to be hired as the team’s chief baseball officer in October 2019."

They've got this entirely backwards. The ownership didn't want to move forward with Dombrowski's high-spending ways, so they fired him. They then went out and hand-picked a guy who would rebuild the team through the farm system (and Bloom was an ideal fit). How on earth Fangraphs got the impression that it was the other way around is beyond me. The story they tell is absolutely ludicrous.
What? You’re misreading what they’re saying….

If Henry mandated Betts to get traded, then whoever they hired had to sell Henry on a vision without Betts…which is exactly what FanGraphs is saying. You’re trying too hard to be aggrieved on Blooms behald
 

Benj4ever

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I still dont get how Henry and company arent seen as the ones signing off on every big deal (or lack thereof), who make the decisions on how much can be spent (or not) and so on. Bloom wasnt perfect by any means, but to think he really ran the red sox doesnt make much sense to me.
Exactly. Every executive is constrained by ownership's wishes. To think it's the other way around is unsound reasoning.
 

moondog80

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Aren’t about half the players on a ML roster supposed to be pitchers?
Yes. And there are other ways to acquire talent beyond the draft. Others have articulated the organizational philosophy better than I could, just scroll up a bit.
 

Benj4ever

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What? You’re misreading what they’re saying….

If Henry mandated Betts to get traded, then whoever they hired had to sell Henry on a vision without Betts…which is exactly what FanGraphs is saying. You’re trying too hard to be aggrieved on Blooms behald
Your argument doesn't make sense. If Henry mandated that Betts be traded, then whomoever he hired had to trade him...which is exactly the opposite of what FanGraphs is saying. And, no, I'm not trying to be aggrieved on Bloom's behalf. Bloom did what he did, and the Red Sox are moving on. I can live with that.
 

Ale Xander

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Yes. And there are other ways to acquire talent beyond the draft. Others have articulated the organizational philosophy better than I could, just scroll up a bit.
[/QUOTE
But they’re getting poor production at 3-4 positions too so it’s not really working
 

Auger34

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Yes. And there are other ways to acquire talent beyond the draft. Others have articulated the organizational philosophy better than I could, just scroll up a bit.
But this organizational philosophy inherently leaves holes in the major league team unless you absolutely ace your 1 year deals.

They’ve decided that they don’t want to draft pitchers but instead sign international pitchers who are 16-18 years old. They take a while to develop

Bloom didn’t want to trade for pitching under control because it was too expensive….he also didn’t want to sign pitchers who were sought after for the same reason.

So where is the pitching coming from? It has to be pitchers like Kluber, who have major issues and can fall flat on their face
 
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Doc Zero

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Your argument doesn't make sense. If Henry mandated that Betts be traded, then whomoever he hired had to trade him...which is exactly the opposite of what FanGraphs is saying. And, no, I'm not trying to be aggrieved on Bloom's behalf. Bloom did what he did, and the Red Sox are moving on. I can live with that.
If ownership puts forth a mandate to trade Betts and then asks candidates for the job what their strategy would be for such a plan, then what's written in that FanGraphs piece makes perfect sense.
 

Auger34

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Your argument doesn't make sense. If Henry mandated that Betts be traded, then whomoever he hired had to trade him...which is exactly the opposite of what FanGraphs is saying. And, no, I'm not trying to be aggrieved on Bloom's behalf. Bloom did what he did, and the Red Sox are moving on. I can live with that.
No it’s not. It said that “Bloom sold Henry on an idea that Boston could compete without Betts”

If Henry mandated that Betts was going to be traded, then part of the interviewing process was explaining to Henry how the team could compete without Betts
 

Auger34

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If ownership puts forth a mandate to trade Betts and then asks candidates for the job what their strategy would be for such a plan, then what's written in that FanGraphs piece makes perfect sense.
Exactly. It’s not that hard to comprehend
 

moondog80

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But this organizational philosophy inherently leaves holes in the major league team unless you absolutely ace your 1 year deals.

They’ve decided that they don’t want to draft pitchers but instead sign international pitchers who are 16-18 years old.

Bloom didn’t want to trade for pitching under control because it was too expensive….he also didn’t want to sign pitchers who were sought after for the same reason.

So where is the pitching coming from? It has to be pitchers like Kluber, who have major issues and can fall flat on their face
I am fairly certain Bloom wound have spent quite heavily on SP this off-season. He tried to last year with Eflin and Haney, but both of those guys choose to play close to home. And we all know the Eovaldi story.

And the international guys won’t be 16 forever, of course. Even if it’s a flawless plan (I have no idea), it will take a while to bear fruit. We can draw zero conclusions from having no MLB pitchers at this point.
 

Futabachannel

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No it’s not. It said that “Bloom sold Henry on an idea that Boston could compete without Betts”

If Henry mandated that Betts was going to be traded, then part of the interviewing process was explaining to Henry how the team could compete without Betts
The only thing this team is competing for is lottery picks. He must have been a brilliant salesman considering that his trade return was Alex Verdugo, Connor Wong, and Jeter Downs. There’s no way there weren’t better offers. It feels like Bloom had some guys that he really liked and decided to punt on Betts.
 

Auger34

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I am fairly certain Bloom wound have spent quite heavily on SP this off-season. He tried to last year with Eflin and Haney, but both of those guys choose to play close to home. And we all know the Eovaldi story.

And the international guys won’t be 16 forever, of course. Even if it’s a flawless plan (I have no idea), it will take a while to bear fruit. We can draw zero conclusions from hanging no MLB pitchers at this point.
I understand how aging works.

You basically agreed with my point in your second sentence of the second paragraph.
 

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I am fairly certain Bloom wound have spent quite heavily on SP this off-season. He tried to last year with Eflin and Haney, but both of those guys choose to play close to home. And we all know the Eovaldi story.

And the international guys won’t be 16 forever, of course. Even if it’s a flawless plan (I have no idea), it will take a while to bear fruit. We can draw zero conclusions from having no MLB pitchers at this point.
Bello is one of those international guys, right?
 

JM3

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All of these expert say we are heavy on hitting prospects and really light on pitching…which is what people on this thread are saying
Pipeline ranks them mid pack because of lack of Major League ready pitching talent (& because they aren't good). The other 2 (BA & Fangraphs) have them top 5 because of the elite hitting talent, pitching depth & some intriguing pitching pieces.

If that's all people in the thread were saying, though, I wouldn't be wasting my time on this argument... although I never should have started regardless. People are going to believe what they believe.
 

Futabachannel

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I am fairly certain Bloom wound have spent quite heavily on SP this off-season. He tried to last year with Eflin and Haney, but both of those guys choose to play close to home. And we all know the Eovaldi story.

And the international guys won’t be 16 forever, of course. Even if it’s a flawless plan (I have no idea), it will take a while to bear fruit. We can draw zero conclusions from having no MLB pitchers at this point.
He’s gone dumpster diving for pitchers every year. It makes sense why management didn’t want that again.
 

Montana Fan

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Bloom was clearly an expert at building the base. John Henry, et al didn’t see him as the guy to to get them over the hump to their next WS. That’s why they made the change. He was successful at achieving the ml rebuild and setting the Sox up for the future. IMO he was fired because they didn’t think he could get over the next hump, not because of what he has done to get the org to this point.
 

Bergs

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The only thing this team is competing for is lottery picks. He must have been a brilliant salesman considering that his trade return was Alex Verdugo, Connor Wong, and Jeter Downs. There’s no way there weren’t better offers. It feels like Bloom had some guys that he really liked and decided to punt on Betts.
It's posts like this that make Bloom-agnostic people like me seem like "Bloomers" (a stupid as fuck bit of nomenclature, btw) when we attack them for their blatant idiocy.
 

Auger34

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It's posts like this that make Bloom-agnostic people like me seem like "Bloomers" (a stupid as fuck bit of nomenclature, btw) when we attack them for their blatant idiocy.
It’s not that big of a deal. Not every post by a lurker or new account is worth this type of response
 
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Harry Hooper

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In my first post on the topic, the plan as I see it would have been to play Duran in LF or CF and Kiké or Verdugo in RF. Totally agree that Duran is not a RF.
OK, thanks for clarifying that for me.


Poor defensive play has certainly increased the burden on the MLB pitching staff during Bloom's tenure.


Bloom's decided approach not to use much draft capital on pitchers is interesting in comparison to someone like Sandy Alderson in his Oakland days, who I believe was quoted as saying having a lot of pitching prospects in the minors was like having wads of cash to spend to acquire whatever you needed for the MLB roster.
 
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Petagine in a Bottle

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It's absolutely true the org has focused much more draft capital & IFA money on hitters, but their hit rate on those has been great with guys like Mayer, Anthony, Bleis, Cespedes, Teel & Yorke.
I think this is interesting. How are you defining “hit rate”? These guys are clearly all promising and look like excellent picks and prospects- but being a highly rated prospect or having a highly ranked system doesn’t have any value on its own, that ranking needs to be turned into production either by those players themselves or whatever they can be converted into via trade. It’s very early and no one would expect anything yet, but these players haven’t provided any actual value to the org yet, have they?
 
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8slim

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Bryan Bello was signed in 2018 and didn’t debut until late 2022. Sometimes it’s a long process.
Sure but that’s 4 years. So you’d think we have a couple of decent starters knocking on the door at AAA right now from Bloom’s earliest drafts.

I’m not passionate about this debate. But it seems Bloom prioritized batters over pitchers. Strikes me as strange given the make up of the team he inherited.
 

JM3

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I think this is interesting and where a lot of the disagreement stems from. How are you defining “hit rate”? These guys are clearly all promising but being a highly rated prospect or having a highly ranked system doesn’t have any value on its own, that ranking needs to be turned into production either by those players themselves or whatever they can be converted into via trade. It’s very early and no one would expect anything yet, but these players haven’t provided any actual value to the org yet, have they?
I enjoy following them, so they have provided value to the org, from my own selfish perspective.

Have they provided value to the Red Sox Major League Baseball team? Of course not. Will every single one of them? Probably not.

But they are all performing in encouraging manners in the minors to the point where one would expect to either be able to get a really nice trade return, or get a ton of overall surplus value on cost controlled contracts.

& several could be faces of the franchise for years to come. That's cool & something to be excited about.

Many other guys are on pretty good paths, too - Blaze, Hickey, Johanfran, Meidroth, Arias, Yuten, Campbell, Romero, etc.

I guess I don't really understand the issue?
 

JM3

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Sure but that’s 4 years. So you’d think we have a couple of decent starters knocking on the door at AAA right now from Bloom’s earliest drafts.

I’m not passionate about this debate. But it seems Bloom prioritized batters over pitchers. Strikes me as strange given the make up of the team he inherited.
Bello actually signed in July '17 fwiw - he debuted in '18.

Not that it was your statement or it particularly matters.
 

JM3

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Gotcha. Similar point though. We don’t have anyone knocking on the door at AAA.
Nope. Closest is probably Grant Gambrell who was acquired in the Benny trade & had a couple good starts at AAA this season. He's another low ceiling guy & R5 eligible this off season, though.

I guess I don't understand all the angst about Bloom not having his own home grown starting pitcher yet after 4 seasons when we went like 19 years between home grown top of the rotation starting pitchers. & Bello was a guy with a 5.43 ERA in A-ball as a 20 y/o in '19 when Bloom took over.
 

simplicio

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Sure but that’s 4 years. So you’d think we have a couple of decent starters knocking on the door at AAA right now from Bloom’s earliest drafts.

I’m not passionate about this debate. But it seems Bloom prioritized batters over pitchers. Strikes me as strange given the make up of the team he inherited.
Bloom's earliest draft was 2020 and there wasn't milb that year.
 

JM3

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In 2019, Kutter Crawford, 23, pitched 69 innings in A+ with a 3.39 ERA & 19.1 innings in AA with a 4.19 ERA.

In 2023, Isaac Coffey, 23, pitched 60.1 innings in A+ with a 2.83 ERA & 57.1 innings in AA with a 3.92 ERA. Coffey was a '22 10th round pick who signed for a $7,500 signing bonus which helped them afford Roman Anthony.

In 2023, Hunter Dobbins, 23, pitched 41 innings in A+ with a 2.63 ERA & 67.2 innings in AA with a 4.39 ERA. Dobbins was an 8th round pick in '21 who signed for just over slot for $197k.

Does this mean Coffey is a better Crawford? & Dobbins is very comparable to Crawford? Of course not, but I hope it makes my point a bit clearer about there being lots of people who could pop. & that it's a process that takes time.
 

8slim

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Nope. Closest is probably Grant Gambrell who was acquired in the Benny trade & had a couple good starts at AAA this season. He's another low ceiling guy & R5 eligible this off season, though.

I guess I don't understand all the angst about Bloom not having his own home grown starting pitcher yet after 4 seasons when we went like 19 years between home grown top of the rotation starting pitchers. & Bello was a guy with a 5.43 ERA in A-ball as a 20 y/o in '19 when Bloom took over.
To me it’s not angst. It’s just maybe slight pushback (a nudge?) against the notion that he built some kind of minor league colossus.
 

JM3

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To me it’s not angst. It’s just maybe slight pushback (a nudge?) against the notion that he built some kind of minor league colossus.
Was more referring to the collective negativity of today more so than you specifically. He's built a really good farm system. It definitely helps that they have mostly not been buyers, & it would have helped even more if they had been bigger sellers.

But the fact that guys like Bello, who signed for $28k, & Crawford who was a 16th round pick, are the ones who made it, & not any of a # of other guys who significant resources were spent to acquire over the years really shows the benefit of the Red Sox strategy, & that it's a lot more complex & nuanced than "we suck at pitching we should draft pitchers in the early rounds".
 

Just a bit outside

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Was more referring to the collective negativity of today more so than you specifically. He's built a really good farm system. It definitely helps that they have mostly not been buyers, & it would have helped even more if they had been bigger sellers.

But the fact that guys like Bello, who signed for $28k, & Crawford who was a 16th round pick, are the ones who made it, & not any of a # of other guys who significant resources were spent to acquire over the years really shows the benefit of the Red Sox strategy, & that it's a lot more complex & nuanced than "we suck at pitching we should draft pitchers in the early rounds".
It is also how the league has gone as a whole. In this years draft there were 5 pitchers drafted in the first round and 16 in the first 60 picks. Pitchers are very volatile and way riskier to draft early. Trey Ball anyone.
 

LogansDad

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It is also how the league has gone as a whole. In this years draft there were 5 pitchers drafted in the first round and 16 in the first 60 picks. Pitchers are very volatile and way riskier to draft early. Trey Ball anyone.
Forget Trey Ball. Jack Leiter was supposed to be as close to a sure thing as you could find in a drafted pitcher. And he is simply awful.
 

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It is also how the league has gone as a whole. In this years draft there were 5 pitchers drafted in the first round and 16 in the first 60 picks. Pitchers are very volatile and way riskier to draft early. Trey Ball anyone.
And last year there were 8 in the first round. It appears to be dropping precipitously
 

JM3

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Take DD's 2018 draft...

It had Casas & Duran so was very successful, but lets look at the pitching.

3rd - Durbin Feltman: Retired

5th - Thad Ward: 7.12 ERA in 30.1 innings for the Nationals. Only in MLB because of Rule 5.

9th - Brian Brown: Released

12th - Chase Shugart: 8.29 ERA in 42.1 innings for Worcester.

15th - AJ Politi: 4.61 ERA in 56.2 innings for Worcester.

16th - Chris Machamer: Released

18th - Eddie Jimenez: Released

22nd - Yusniel Padron-Artiles: 5+ ERA in Greenville last year injured this year.

23rd - Ryan Fernandez: 6.28 ERA in 28.2 innings for Worcester.

They also released 24th, 27th, 28th & 31st round picks.

There's 3 guys who have made it to AAA, & it would be 4 if Ward was still here, but none who have really even made it to MLB, yet, & that was 2 years before Bloom took over.
 

LogansDad

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I am curious, how many times have other organizations come out of the woodwork to shiv a person in Bloom's position after he got canned. As I said before, if the Sale and Turner rumors that have come out the last couple days are true, I think the team probably needed to move on. But I can't ever remember so many sources from other teams rushing to tell their story of dealing with him. (As an aside, I also doubt that the trades were just "Turner for Cabrera" or "Give us Sale's contract", and would be curious to know what the actual deals they presumably came close to making were).

What concerns me is that I can actually see Bloom's plan starting to come together next year (especially '25, but that is understandably too long to wait). I hope they bring in a guy who can supplement what he has done with the organization, and not someone who is going to suddenly shift into a totally different direction, because that is how we get one or two solid seasons and then end up right back at square one, which I don't really think anyone here wants.
 

JM3

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2019 there are 2 guys who have made it - 6th rounder Chris Murphy, 4.43 ERA & 26th rounder Brandon Walter, 6.26 ERA.

In AA: 3rd, 9th, 12th & 21st rounders
In A+: 4th & 7th rounders

Everyone else has been released or traded (32nd rounder Bradley Blalock).
 

jon abbey

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I just want to point out that Cashman has entirely rebuilt NY's AA/AAA rotation exceedingly quickly, as follows:

Clayton Beeter (2020 2nd round pick by LAD, traded to NY at 2022 deadline for two months of Joey Gallo, in AAA now, career high 13 Ks in his last start)
Will Warren (2021 8th round pick, dominating AAA down the stretch currently)
Richard Fitts (2021 6th round pick, a 1st round talent who slipped because of a non-arm injury, led the Eastern League in Ks with 163 including a career high 11 in his last start)
Drew Thorpe (2022 2nd round pick, up to AA at the end of this season with a good chance to be the overall MiLB pitcher of the year, 14-2 with a 2.52 ERA and 182 Ks (most in MiLB) in 139.1 IP, just 38 BBs)
Chase Hampton (2022 6th round pick, already impressing at AA and on multiple top 100 prospect lists in his first professional season)

That's not a huge amount of draft capital, a 2nd round pick, 2 6th rounders and an 8th rounder, plus a deadline trade. All five of those guys could challenge for NY's rotation next year.

So Bloom not having enough time to do something similar is not really valid, he chose to have different priorities for whatever reason.
 

JM3

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The '17 draft had Houck & Crawford. The only other guy to even make it to AAA was Rio Gomez (but still obviously a successful draft).

The '16 draft was the Jay Groome #1 draft. He still hasn't made it (but one of the prospects they got by flipping him, Corey Rosier, has had a great season & is doing well since being called up to AAA). 4th rounder Bobby Dalbec was the best player in that draft...
 

simplicio

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Bloom's highest pick spent on pitching was Dalton Rogers in the third round at #99, who along with all his fourth round pitchers was significantly under slot. Currently 18/20 of MLB's top pitching prospects went higher than 99 and both the picks below were significantly over slot.

Complaints about lack of pitching in this system just confuse me really, cause it's obviously intentional. There's good discussion to be had about whether that's a sound strategy, but it's not like Chaim went out and got us a bunch of Jay Groomes and Trey Balls.
 

JM3

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I just want to point out that Cashman has entirely rebuilt NY's AA/AAA rotation exceedingly quickly, as follows:

Clayton Beeter (2020 2nd round pick by LAD, traded to NY at 2022 deadline for two months of Joey Gallo, in AAA now, career high 13 Ks in his last start)
Will Warren (2021 8th round pick, dominating AAA down the stretch currently)
Richard Fitts (2021 6th round pick, a 1st round talent who slipped because of a non-arm injury, led the Eastern League in Ks with 163 including a career high 11 in his last start)
Drew Thorpe (2022 2nd round pick, up to AA at the end of this season with a good chance to be the overall MiLB pitcher of the year, 14-2 with a 2.52 ERA and 182 Ks (most in MiLB) in 139.1 IP, just 38 BBs)
Chase Hampton (2022 6th round pick, already impressing at AA and on multiple top 100 prospect lists in his first professional season)

That's not a huge amount of draft capital, a 2nd round pick, 2 6th rounders and an 8th rounder, plus a deadline trade. All five of those guys could challenge for NY's rotation next year.

So Bloom not having enough time to do something similar is not really valid, he chose to have different priorities for whatever reason.
How many of those guys are currently in the Majors helping the Major League team? I believe that's the standard lol

There seems like a lot of wishcasting on several of those guys. Thorpe & Hampton are great, though.
 

JM3

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I will note on Hampton, though, Wikelman is 8 months younger than him & has better AA #s than him this season.
 

jon abbey

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How many of those guys are currently in the Majors helping the Major League team?
This thread is moving fast, but my point was mostly that all of those guys have been added since the 2021 draft, so it doesn't always take so long to develop pitching. None have gotten a shot in MLB yet but that is in part because 4 of those 5 don't need to be added to the 40 man this winter, all spent the season building up innings and all are ready to compete for a SP spot in the spring. It’s definitely not easy but it’s possible.

Also I forgot Brock Selvidge, 3rd round pick in 2021 out of high school and just turned 21, he should be in AA early next season after a very strong showing in high A.
 

BringBackMo

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I don’t think it’s @JM3. The people you should be questioning are @BringBackMo and @chawson…who seem to be fighting tooth and nail that Bloom was actually great and we are all missing something
LOL. Love these seventh grade social-circle power dynamics. In any case, happy to be lumped in with Chawson any time.
 

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I guess I don't understand all the angst about Bloom not having his own home grown starting pitcher yet after 4 seasons when we went like 19 years between home grown top of the rotation starting pitchers
I think part of it is that we haven't acquired any top tier pitching talent either. Since 1998, we are more or less used to the Sox having an ace. We had Pedro, we had Schilling, there was a bit of a gap in 2005-2006 as Schilling was hurt and guys like Clement didn't work out (and Beckett sucked in 2006), then we had Beckett, Lester, similar lull in 2014-2015 as Lester / Buchholz declined / were hurt and Lackey didn't really work out, and then of course DD traded for a few seasons worth of ace level Sale and also signed Price (which worked out a little better than we probably thought at the time - he provided decent value for a few years). So now while we do have Bello, he was a DD pick, and Bloom didn't do much to augment that from an acquisition standpoint (he obviously has done ok getting a few young cost-controlled mid-back end rotation guys on the cheap). I think one of the reasons Cherington was fired was how the SP turned out under his watch, and I think it's fair to say the same applies to Bloom to a degree.
 
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YTF

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I think part of it is that we haven't acquired any top tier pitching talent either. Since 1998, we are more or less used to the Sox having an ace. We had Pedro, we had Schilling, there was a bit of a gap in 2005-2006 as Schilling was hurt and guys like Clement didn't work out (and Beckett sucked in 2006), then we had Beckett, Lester, similar lull in 2014-2015 as Lester / Buchholz declined / were hurt and Lackey didn't really work out, and then of course DD traded for a few seasons worth of ace level Sale and also signed Price (which worked out a little better than we probably thought at the time - he provided decent value for a few years). So now while we do have Bello, he was a DD pick, and Bloom didn't do much to augment that from an acquisition standpoint. I think one of the reasons Cherington was fired was how the SP turned out under his watch, and I think it's fair to say the same applies to Bloom to a degree.
I think the simplicity of this one sentence carries a lot of weight.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I just want to point out that Cashman has entirely rebuilt NY's AA/AAA rotation exceedingly quickly, as follows:

Clayton Beeter (2020 2nd round pick by LAD, traded to NY at 2022 deadline for two months of Joey Gallo, in AAA now, career high 13 Ks in his last start)
Will Warren (2021 8th round pick, dominating AAA down the stretch currently)
Richard Fitts (2021 6th round pick, a 1st round talent who slipped because of a non-arm injury, led the Eastern League in Ks with 163 including a career high 11 in his last start)
Drew Thorpe (2022 2nd round pick, up to AA at the end of this season with a good chance to be the overall MiLB pitcher of the year, 14-2 with a 2.52 ERA and 182 Ks (most in MiLB) in 139.1 IP, just 38 BBs)
Chase Hampton (2022 6th round pick, already impressing at AA and on multiple top 100 prospect lists in his first professional season)

That's not a huge amount of draft capital, a 2nd round pick, 2 6th rounders and an 8th rounder, plus a deadline trade. All five of those guys could challenge for NY's rotation next year.

So Bloom not having enough time to do something similar is not really valid, he chose to have different priorities for whatever reason.
Interesting Were these guys overslot or underslot?

One thing that no one mentioned is that in addition to Bloom's focus on hitters in the draft, he also focused on college bullpen arms. I think he believed that he could take a couple of good arms and develop them rather than having to pay full freight on starting pitching prospects. I don't know for sure but it's my impression that a lot of the college bullpen arms were slot or under allowing Bloom to splurge for a couple of overslot prospects each draft.

The one thing that Bloom did invest a lot of resources in is improving the developmental system; I hope BOS keeps working on that.
 
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