Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

scottyno

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Felger is floating the suggestion that the Pats should tank the final two games (definitely the Dolphins game) to guarantee a four seed and a better path to the Super Bowl. The plan is to play the 5 seed (likely Indy) in the first round then head to Houston in round two to avoid Denver until the AFCCG.

He noted that they did this in 2005 when they tanked the final game (also Miami - the Flutie drop kick game) and drew Jax rather than Pitt when Cassel badly overthrew a receiver on a 2 pt conversion after a chat with Brady on the sidelines. Unfortunately, that trip to Denver didn't turn out so well.
I actually wouldn't mind this and already thought of it except for the fact that they'd look pretty stupid if they tanked and then Denver lost to KC in the late afternoon game on week 17 and the Pats would have got a bye. If they knew for sure Denver would win out it might be something to consider. In 2005 they were already locked into having to play wildcard weekend before week 17.
 

mpx42

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I don't think they could tank against Jacksonville even if they tried.

Actually, I think if Baltimore beats the Giants, then if they just rest their starters for the Miami game, then Baltimore only has to beat Cincinnati to get the 3 seed. But would it really make a difference? It's probably just Houston/Denver instead of Denver/Houston anyway.
 
Meh, what I heard was that their defense wasn't horrible and if they had a good QB they would be competitive and probably be 10-6 especially with Miami and Buffalo still bad teams.
Yeah, I didn't listen to the whole show but caught a lot of Jets talk and he repeatedly called them a train wreck. He said their defense is still decent and their cap situation isn't as bad as some think because many teams carry dead money. He certainly didn't defend them.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Yeah, I didn't listen to the whole show but caught a lot of Jets talk and he repeatedly called them a train wreck. He said their defense is still decent and their cap situation isn't as bad as some think because many teams carry dead money. He certainly didn't defend them.
I had it on around 5:30-6:00 and they were calling for the firing of Rex, Tannenbaum and the release of Sanchez. Felger did scoff at "cap jail" but other than that they were not saying anything close to them being on the verge of being 10-6
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Mazz said that all the Jets need is "A head coach, GM, OC and a quarterback" and then they'll be right back in this. Given the fact that these four things aren't easily attainable, the Jets need a running back, another wide receiver and some defensive help as well.

The thing that I don't think Felger thinks about cap jail is, yes you can pay all of your star players, star money but it comes back to bite you in the ass when you have shitty back ups. Santonio Holmes goes down, who do you have? Revis goes down, who do you have? Mark Sanchez sucks, who do you have? One of the reasons why the Pats have been so good for so long, is because they have depth. They can plug in guys that are 80-90% as good as the starter they lost, for the most part. And that's because they don't go fucking bananas for all of their starters.
 

HomeBrew1901

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I had it on around 5:30-6:00 and they were calling for the firing of Rex, Tannenbaum and the release of Sanchez. Felger did scoff at "cap jail" but other than that they were not saying anything close to them being on the verge of being 10-6
He said it shortly before that, sometime around 5:15 or so. Didn't harp on it just thought they could have been 10-6 if Sanchez wasn't the QB and they had a decent QB this season.

Edit: Great point on cap jail JMOH
 

dcmissle

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Mazz said that all the Jets need is "A head coach, GM, OC and a quarterback" and then they'll be right back in this. Given the fact that these four things aren't easily attainable, the Jets need a running back, another wide receiver and some defensive help as well.

The thing that I don't think Felger thinks about cap jail is, yes you can pay all of your star players, star money but it comes back to bite you in the ass when you have shitty back ups. Santonio Holmes goes down, who do you have? Revis goes down, who do you have? Mark Sanchez sucks, who do you have? One of the reasons why the Pats have been so good for so long, is because they have depth. They can plug in guys that are 80-90% as good as the starter they lost, for the most part. And that's because they don't go fucking bananas for all of their starters.
The impact of the cap hit on depth is important, and the cap is not rising next season.

The real problem, though, is who can play QB. Vick -- who is playing the other 8 games a year? The draft? Seems to be a weak class of QBs. Perhaps they will find someone and revert to ground and pound, but the options are not looking too good. My guess is that if the kid from Alabama shows well, maybe he comes back as the presumptive starter with Sanchez as the presumptive back up.

Given the Jets' aspirations, to say that the team is in decent shape other than QB is to say that the team is in a heap of trouble.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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The real problem, though, is who can play QB. Vick -- who is playing the other 8 games a year? The draft? Seems to be a weak class of QBs. Perhaps they will find someone and revert to ground and pound, but the options are not looking too good. My guess is that if the kid from Alabama shows well, maybe he comes back as the presumptive starter with Sanchez as the presumptive back up.
Exactly right which is why when Mazz said, "All they need is a ..." it's foolish because QB/HC/GM are the three most important positions in a football organization and three of the hardest things to find. As Patriots fans, we've seen that you can fudge your way through a season without good receivers (2006) or a really strong defense (2011) or a really strong running game (2001) and make it to the AFC Championship or the Super Bowl or win a Super Bowl. But the year that Brady went down, they did well but they didn't make the playoffs.

And we all remember what happened when a crappy head coach (Rod Rust, Dick MacPherson, Pete Carroll) or a bad GM (Bobby Greir) is in charge. Massarotti should know this, but either he chose to ignore it or he's a moron.
 

soxfan121

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One of the reasons why the Pats have been so good for so long, is because they have depth. They can plug in guys that are 80-90% as good as the starter they lost, for the most part. And that's because they don't go fucking bananas for all of their starters.
I don't disagree but the Patriots haven't had a guy who is 50% of the player Darelle Revis is for years. So the dropoff from Stiff #1 to Stiff #2 is only 10-20%, giving you 80-90% of Stiff #1's value...but since that value was low to begin with, it's easier to find capable replacements.

Any player attempting to replace Revis was going to be 50% of the player Revis is, simply because Revis is the best CB in the NFL by a wide margin.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I don't disagree but the Patriots haven't had a guy who is 50% of the player Darelle Revis is for years. So the dropoff from Stiff #1 to Stiff #2 is only 10-20%, giving you 80-90% of Stiff #1's value...but since that value was low to begin with, it's easier to find capable replacements.

Any player attempting to replace Revis was going to be 50% of the player Revis is, simply because Revis is the best CB in the NFL by a wide margin.
Right, but the drop off from Tom Brady to Matt Cassel is arguably bigger than the drop off from Revis to the Jets' CB du jour. And the Pats still almost made the playoffs, going 11-5.

I'm not suggesting that every backup needs to be almost as good as the starter, that's not feasible, but you can't have a huge drop off in a majority of positions otherwise you're completely screwed, like the Jets are.
 

Ralphwiggum

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The better example for this year's Jet team is at receiver where they were paper thin coming into the year and where the injury to Holmes was devastating. I like Felger (probably more than most) and enjoy hearing his take on things even if I don't always agree with him. But I agree that when he's been beating this "there is no such thing as the salary cap in the NFL" drum, particularly when being critical of the Pats playing hardball with certain players, he is most definitely ignoring the effect on the back-end of the roster and how important depth is in today's NFL.

You can criticize individual moves the Pats have made over the years because they've made mistakes and nobody is perfect, but it is absolutely assinine to criticize their philosophy for roster building, which is one area where I disagree strongly with Felger. He seems to believe when they play hardball with a Wes Welker or let Assante Samuel walk it is because they are cheap (that is the only way to take it, since he thinks the cap is a joke). The Pats never would never have made the "go for it now" moves that Tannenbaum made in '09 and '10. The Jets had two nice playoff runs those years but they are paying the price for it now. This is why the Pats will have a number in their head that they will be willing to give to Wes Welker this offseason, and (assuming he's not franchised again) they will let him go if someone else is willing to give him more. It is all about balancing the desire to put the best roster on the field in any given year, without sacrificing roster flexibility or depth in future years. That kind of discipline is part of what has enabled them to be in the hunt for another Super Bowl appearance 12 years after the first one, with a completely different roster (outside of the QB).
 

Jackson

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Exactly right which is why when Mazz said, "All they need is a ..." it's foolish because QB/HC/GM are the three most important positions in a football organization and three of the hardest things to find. As Patriots fans, we've seen that you can fudge your way through a season without good receivers (2006) or a really strong defense (2011) or a really strong running game (2001) and make it to the AFC Championship or the Super Bowl or win a Super Bowl. But the year that Brady went down, they did well but they didn't make the playoffs.

And we all remember what happened when a crappy head coach (Rod Rust, Dick MacPherson, Pete Carroll) or a bad GM (Bobby Greir) is in charge. Massarotti should know this, but either he chose to ignore it or he's a moron.
I vote for the latter...
 

soxfan121

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Right, but the drop off from Tom Brady to Matt Cassel is arguably bigger than the drop off from Revis to the Jets' CB du jour.
I'd argue this. Brady might be the best QB of all time and the missed 08 season with Cassel was a remarkable achievement. But that team was LOADED. Cassel avoided stomping on his own dick (until he got to KC, where he did it repeatedly, showing his true talent level) but I think Wilfork could have played QB on the 08 team and gotten them to an 11-5 record.

Revis is indisputably the best CB in the NFL. The drop off from #1 to #2 is large - much larger than the drop off from QB #1 (Brady) in the NFL and QB #2 (Manning, Rodgers, etc.) Further, the Jets built their entire defensive scheme on Revis' otherworldly ability to cover his man. Further, the Jets are not loaded with talent - the rest of the roster, unlike the 08 Patriots, is not good enough to withstand the loss of their best player.

I think the drop off from Revis to CB2 (Kyle Wilson?) is astronomical. I think because of how Revis was relied upon and because of how little talent was around him, Revis's loss was bigger than Brady's loss to the Patriots in 08.

Basically, I think pre-injury Darelle Revis might have been elbowing his way into the conversation of "best CB of all time". He wasn't there yet and he might never get there now but Revis was the very best in the league at his position by a large margin. Replacing Revis was impossible for the Jets - replacing Brady was really difficult for the Pats.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Again, not sure about your logic here. By your estimation:

Brady might be the best QB of all time
and

Revis is indisputably the best CB in the NFL.
Though you did say he *may* be elbowing his way into best CB of all time. However, it's easier to win without a strong corner than it is to win without a strong quarterback. You can take a CB out of the game easier than you could a QB. In other words, don't throw to the CB's side or run it more. Yes, you change your game plan, but a quarterback is going to have way more opportunities to beat you then a cornerback will.
 

HomeBrew1901

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Vulgar and Spazz tomorrow: Luck sucks! Colts suck! Pats ran up the score! Wait 'til they play a good QB/team...yawn....
Holy shit. I hope you're required to hand in your gun(s) before you go off duty...
Typically, one can only ever reasonably trust one's mother...
To paraphrase Gammons, "Michael, have you watched the games?"
I vote for the latter...
Thanks. Glad I could help.
Just going from pages 84 - 87, this is the sum of his commentary, I didn't only pick out the one liners nad leave decent commentary out, this is the sum of his contributions.
 

Guapos Toenails

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Maybe nobody went over the Golden Rule on posting comments here, so here it is Jackson:

Don't suck.

Before you click the "Post" button, review what you wrote and ask yourself if it contributes to the discussion. If it doesn't, then it probably sucks. The Game Threads are usually the place for throw away lines and meaningless thoughts.

Now you know.
 
Just heard Mazz criticizing the Sox for not being involved in the Morales - Vargas trade. For the first time in a while I thought I finally agreed with him. But when Felger pushed, Mazz said he wanted Vargas, not Kendrys Morales. He explained Vargas, "Had a good year last year", then stated, "I want nothing to do with Morales." - citing the Sox have too many DHs (Mazz thinks Morales can't field despite the data that says othewise) and he doesn't believe Morales is really 29. Am I crazy to think this is moronic? I realize the Sox need pitching but is a career 90 ERA+ starter better than a cheap, switch hitting 1B assuming the Napoli contract may not happen? I know my dislike for Mazz slants my opinions on some of his comments but would anybody really want Jason Vargas on this team over Morales? I'm not trying to start a baseball conversation in a media thread but I was just curious if anybody else heard his analysis and found it as absurd as I did.
 

Haunted

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I'm no fan of Vargas but I think not wanting Morales is a defensible position to take. The guy simply can't stay on the field, playing over 100 games twice in his career (2009 - 152, 2012 - 134). If you make a move for him you'll need a pretty solid backup.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moralke01.shtml
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I'm no fan of Vargas but I think not wanting Morales is a defensible position to take. The guy simply can't stay on the field, playing over 100 games twice in his career (2009 - 152, 2012 - 134). If you make a move for him you'll need a pretty solid backup.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moralke01.shtml
The time he missed in 2010 and 2011 was all due to the same injury...the infamous walk-off celebration broken leg. Aside from that one freak injury, he's been healthy. I think his 134 games in 2012 is attributable to the lineup logjam rather than any further complications from the leg.

Morales would be a great get for the Red Sox given their need (Napoli deal notwithstanding). Unfortunately, it's not like they had a Jason Vargas to trade.
 

Haunted

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The time he missed in 2010 and 2011 was all due to the same injury...the infamous walk-off celebration broken leg. Aside from that one freak injury, he's been healthy. I think his 134 games in 2012 is attributable to the lineup logjam rather than any further complications from the leg.

Morales would be a great get for the Red Sox given their need (Napoli deal notwithstanding). Unfortunately, it's not like they had a Jason Vargas to trade.
Well he spent most of last season at DH (obviously, he isn't supplanting Pujoles) and was decent. And I'm not saying I wouldn't want him. My point is simply that not wanting him is - at least - a defensible position.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Does anyone else find Jerry from Barstool Sports makes them turn off the radio? He's really not funny, adds nothing but thinks he's hilarious. An entire segment of him is way too much. He's like a celebrity caller but with a paid segment.
 

BoSoxFink

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Does anyone else find Jerry from Barstool Sports makes them turn off the radio? He's really not funny, adds nothing but thinks he's hilarious. An entire segment of him is way too much. He's like a celebrity caller but with a paid segment.
It doesn't make me turn off the radio, but he is definitely not funny. Some of the stuff he says that he thinks is funny is just garbage!
 
Does anyone else find Jerry from Barstool Sports makes them turn off the radio? He's really not funny, adds nothing but thinks he's hilarious. An entire segment of him is way too much. He's like a celebrity caller but with a paid segment.
I think he's hit or miss but I loved his Hogan's Heroes - Jets analogy today. Him rooting for the Jets so their front office sticks around like Hogan wanting to keep Col Klink and Sgt Schultz.running the prison camp? I found that pretty funny and accurate.
 

SoxScout

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Felger and Mazz is annihilating the Big Show:

The ongoing battle between 98.5 The Sports Hub and WEEI for Boston sports radio supremacy was no battle at all in the fall. The Sports Hub, the radio home of the Patriots, finished first in the Arbitron ratings from the period of Sept. 13-Dec. 5, earning an 8.5 share to easily outdistance runner-up and fellow CBS Radio property WZLX, which was second with a 6.6.

WEEI fell into a tie for seventh place with WBUR with a 4.9 share among the men 25-54 demographic.
In afternoon drive (2 p.m.-6 p.m.), "Felger and Massarotti" was first (9.1) while WEEI's "Ordway and Holley'' show was fifth (5.2).
http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2012/12/sports_hub_no_1_in_fall_rating.html
 

Dalton Jones

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'EEI is in a tie with NPR...... Astounding. Callahan is working for a station that ties with NPR for ratings....... the irony is delicious.
 

Rusty13

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Wow. EEI must be in PANIC mode right now. If it wasn't for the Sox, they would be closing in on belly up status.
 

axx

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Felger is pretty entertaining.

I do wonder if things will head back to being more favorable to EEI once the Patriots season ends.
 

wilymomoonshot

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Felger is pretty entertaining.

I do wonder if things will head back to being more favorable to EEI once the Patriots season ends.
I doubt it. I recall people wondering if the Sports Hub previous success was due to the Bruins and with no B's the Sports Hub is beating them worse than ever. EEI alienated too many listeners and I think it's too late for them to bounce back without a major overhaul
 

Rocco Graziosa

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Is the Sports Hub going to kill WEEI? With the amount of money they are paying their talent, they must be hemoraging cash, and one has to wonder if there will come a point where it might make sense to dump the format for something more profitable.

When you consider where EEI was when the Sports Hub was formed, its mindboggling to consider how far and how fast they have fallen.
 

drtooth

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Is the Sports Hub going to kill WEEI? With the amount of money they are paying their talent, they must be hemoraging cash, and one has to wonder if there will come a point where it might make sense to dump the format for something more profitable.

When you consider where EEI was when the Sports Hub was formed, its mindboggling to consider how far and how fast they have fallen.
What is probably keeping WEEI's cash flow going is the fact that they are the flagship for the Celts and Sox.
 

soxfan121

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When you consider where EEI was when the Sports Hub was formed, its mindboggling to consider how far and how fast they have fallen.
Karma is a bitch. I recall the "#1 rated sports radio station...IN THE COUNTRY" promos they ran at the top and bottom of every sports flash. You reap what you sow, Jason Wolfe.
 

Judge Mental13

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You guys are overestimating the ratings vis-a-vis money discussion that's going on here.

D&C might be losing badly in the ratings, but they still maintain a listener demo that spends a LOT more money than your average T&R listener on things like cars, home repairs, laser hair replacement etc. They're losing in the ratings, but I doubt they're costing the station any money, yet.

The Felger/Mazz vs Big Show dismantling this ratings book is a lot worse for WEEI, because those two shows go after the same people. This is all speculation, mind you, but the ratings/cash flow argument isn't that black and white.
 

Vinho Tinto

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re money than your average T&R listener on things like cars, home repairs, laser hair replacement etc. They're losing in the ratings, but I doubt they're costing the station any money, yet.
A similar point was made when Imus was fired by WFAN. His ratings had been in the tank for years, but his demos leaned towards high income listeners, so FAN had no problem selling ad time to big name sponsors. It was only when he said something that became a national scandal did they finally let him go.
 

bosox188

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It appears they're both on board with the line of thinking that McDaniels has been told he is going to be taking over for Belichick in a few years.
 

HomeBrew1901

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It appears they're both on board with the line of thinking that McDaniels has been told he is going to be taking over for Belichick in a few years.
That's fine, but they are both being a little disingenuous IMO. Felger just said McDaniel's is turning down interviewing for 1 of 2 reasons, either he has been assured the Patriots job or he's stupid, when there are a number of other reasons that have been discussed in the NFL forum. I don't usually agree with the callers but I think they are stirring shit to generate calls during a bye/holiday week by saying it is one or the other.
 

NortheasternPJ

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That's fine, but they are both being a little disingenuous IMO. Felger just said McDaniel's is turning down interviewing for 1 of 2 reasons, either he has been assured the Patriots job or he's stupid, when there are a number of other reasons that have been discussed in the NFL forum. I don't usually agree with the callers but I think they are stirring shit to generate calls during a bye/holiday week by saying it is one or the other.
Reason #3 was covered for an hour on Gresh & Zo today. He's looked at others like RAC and Mangini and realizes you probably only get 2 shots as an NFL head coach. He's either going to wait out Bill or wait a couple years and pick his spot very carefully.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I was thinking about this the other day and I'm not sure if I have a fully baked answer yet, but how much of Mike Felger's career does he owe to Glen Ordway?

As you all may remember for many years, Felger was a member of the Big Show. And as Ordway was so fond of saying everyone on the Big Show had their role to play and for Felger, that was the douchebag*.

* When Ordway said this, it reminded me of Vince McMahon giving wrestlers their gimicks: Hogan, you're the All-American star, Calloway, you're a dead guy. I imagined Ordway handing out roles the same way: Felger, you're the douchebag; Smerlas, you're the drooling ex-jock; DeOssie, you're the asshole ex-jock; Johnson, you're the tracing moron.

Felger has evolved past this gimmick and I don't think that he really loved it (I remember times on EEI or in interviews where he would say that he wasn't really like that or would get fed up with callers dismissing his opinions because he was a DB) and when he went to ESPN radio, he seemed to tone it down. When he made his way to TSH, he revved it up a bit but it's not as insufferable as his EEI days.

My logic is this: if Ordway didn't choose to "highlight" this part of his personality, would Felger have done so? There are a few examples of folks loving the role of the bad guy but I don't think that Felger does. So if Felger wouldn't position himself like that, what would he have done? He's obviously smart and can play the game so I'm not suggesting that he'd be the next Michael Gee, but at the same time would he be Media Mogul Michael Felger?
 

SoxScout

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It appears they're both on board with the line of thinking that McDaniels has been told he is going to be taking over for Belichick in a few years.
Jonathan Kraft just said at the end of his Adam Jones interview, "You know we don't discuss Bill's contract, that's the way we all like it. Hopefully, no, definitively, Bill will be here for many more years."