You could actually fix the team but there isn't a way in hell Dolan would bite the bullet and do what is necessary which is trade Melo and then Amare and Lin.
Because Dolan isn't selling.BTW somebody please tell me, why hasn't Spike Lee -- with all of his connections and wealthy business associates/friends/etc. -- ever tried to form an ownership group to buy the Knicks?
Why would Dolan, a man so powerful he singlehandedly tanked NYC's Olympic bid ever move off his thrown?BTW somebody please tell me, why hasn't Spike Lee -- with all of his connections and wealthy business associates/friends/etc. -- ever tried to form an ownership group to buy the Knicks?
This wasn't the team with the second best record in the league. They were missing an All-Star (Deng), another starter (Hamilton), and a third important rotation piece (Watson). Then, Rose has a poor shooting game.I didn't think it was a bad game for the Knicks tonight against the team with the second best record in the league.
The Knick player I like the most is Tyson Chandler (duh Dr. Obvious). He's fantastic on defense and does all the little things on offense.
Lin as he plays now seems like a mediocre to above mediocre point guard. I don't think it's unreasonable to hope that within the next couple of years he ll grow and mature into a far more polished and effective player than he is today.
The reason they suffer beyond defense - which has already been covered today- is lack of a credible three point game I feel. Carmelo and Amare shoot too many 15-18 foot jumpers and Lin/Fields aren't good enough at shooting the 3 in order to keep opposing defenses honest.
I definitely think however that this team with enough time and patience has lots of room to grow and gel. In the meanwhile, it's certainly made casual fans like me interested in following them.
We must have been watching two different games. I thought the effort was there, and that the real problem, again, was that this team simple isn't very well constructed or good.This wasn't the team with the second best record in the league. They were missing an All-Star (Deng), another starter (Hamilton), and a third important rotation piece (Watson). Then, Rose has a poor shooting game.
Once again, they just gave minimal effort and couldn't get the ball where it needed to go down the stretch.
Only set against their previous pathetic showings was this "not a bad game."
Okay. Somebody needs to explain to me how it's D'Antoni's fault though. What is a new coach going to do to get better results?Grin,
The Knicks, with Carmelo, Amare, Chandler, Lin, Fields, Shumpert, etc. have the same record as a Milwaukee Bucks team that has Brandon Jennings and nothing else (since Bogut has been hurt). They have a 0.5 game lead on the Cavs, a team with very little talent. I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that D'Antoni has been nothing short of a disaster. And if it weren't for Linsanity, the Knicks would be like 15-27. He's done D'Antoni a massive favor - he saved his job.
He is just not good at any aspect of coaching, outside of pumping up his starting PG's numbers. Against Boston, he should have fouled at the end with less than 10 seconds and up by 3. Against Milwaukee at the end, he had the ball twice down by 1 with an exhausted team on the floor and plenty of time-outs and didn't call time out either time. Last night, Amare was red hot at the end of the third and carrying the offense, and then D'Antoni sat him for the first five minutes of the 4th.Okay. Somebody needs to explain to me how it's D'Antoni's fault though.
Agreed, D'Antoni was given a roster without any flow amongst the players offensive styles. Anthony and Stoudemire are both ball-stopping isolation players, and its hard for guys like that to work togather. Also, D'Antoni has never been a great defensive coach, so the GM has to take the hit for setting up a team where the two best players are awful defenders.D'Antoni's firing is not going to save an Amare Melo lead team.
Has Melo ever gotten along with any coach?
It's clear that D'Antoni's style is wearing very thin for Knicks fans but I think that D'Antoni's record in Phoenix shows pretty clearly that he is a very good coach who is capable of leading his team to success. He is probably not as capable of coaching parts into a whole as someone like Popovich but he is clearly one of the elite offensive minds in the game. D'Antoni is not succeeding with this team, obviously, but I'm not sure how much more another coach such as Phil Jackson, Thibodeau, Jerry Sloan, Carlisle, Doc or Popovich would wring from this roster.He is just not good at any aspect of coaching, outside of pumping up his starting PG's numbers.
#2 is the big one but I think it absolves Carmelo and Amare of blame. Carmelo needs to play like an MVP candidate for the Knicks to be title contenders and he's not. That's more his fault than the coaches. Amare needs to play like an All Star and right now he's not even close.Look, to me there are a few things a coach can do to add value to a team.
1. Make smart in-game decisions (timeouts, when to foul, playing matchups)
2. Motivate players, particularly stars, to play harder or smarter (case dependent) than they would for another coach.
3. Emphasize defense so that players feel their minutes are based on performance on that end
4. Put in place defensive principles that work.
5. Put together a coherent offensive system that fits the pieces he has and adjusts to various defensive schemes.
6. Work well with the media to mitigate off the court issues.
7. Prepare his team for the variances of their opponents.
To me, D'Antoni does none of these well. To those defending him, I ask which you feel he does do well. And if I'm leaving out an important value-add for a head coach, particularly one that D'Antoni does well, I'm very open to hearing it.
See, I have no issue with any of that, but what I haven't heard is an alternative. All of the criticisms of D'Antoni to this point seem to be sort of generic criticisms that could be leveled on any NBA coach. In fact, the only one of your points that I think really apply to this year's Knicks is point 1, which I admit, D'Antoni seems to have had some lapses on. The others are fine points, I'm just not sure how relevant they are. I'll address them:Look, to me there are a few things a coach can do to add value to a team.
1. Make smart in-game decisions (timeouts, when to foul, playing matchups)
2. Motivate players, particularly stars, to play harder or smarter (case dependent) than they would for another coach.
3. Emphasize defense so that players feel their minutes are based on performance on that end
4. Put in place defensive principles that work.
5. Put together a coherent offensive system that fits the pieces he has and adjusts to various defensive schemes.
6. Work well with the media to mitigate off the court issues.
7. Prepare his team for the variances of their opponents.
To me, D'Antoni does none of these well. To those defending him, I ask which you feel he does do well. And if I'm leaving out an important value-add for a head coach, particularly one that D'Antoni does well, I'm very open to hearing it.
Actually I think it's increasingly clear that that had much more to do with Steve Nash than with the coaching. Everyone likes to say that he is "clearly one of the elite offensive minds in the game", but if he really was, he'd be able to figure out how to get Melo and Amare going, or even one of them!It's clear that D'Antoni's style is wearing very thin for Knicks fans but I think that D'Antoni's record in Phoenix shows pretty clearly that he is a very good coach who is capable of leading his team to success. He is probably not as capable of coaching parts into a whole as someone like Popovich but he is clearly one of the elite offensive minds in the game. D'Antoni is not succeeding with this team, obviously, but I'm not sure how much more another coach such as Phil Jackson, Thibodeau, Jerry Sloan, Carlisle, Doc or Popovich would wring from this roster.
Joined...both. He and ownership are a disaster. It's twice as painful watching this team than it was watching them 3 years ago. I feel like this team is analagous to when you're watching a super hero movie where the super hero keeps losing all of his battles only to eventually triumph in the last minute. Except the Knicks never triumph in the last minute.He is just not good at any aspect of coaching, outside of pumping up his starting PG's numbers. Against Boston, he should have fouled at the end with less than 10 seconds and up by 3. Against Milwaukee at the end, he had the ball twice down by 1 with an exhausted team on the floor and plenty of time-outs and didn't call time out either time. Last night, Amare was red hot at the end of the third and carrying the offense, and then D'Antoni sat him for the first five minutes of the 4th.
But it's true that D'Antoni is just a symptom and Dolan is the disease. I just started a FB group to gauge interest in a fan boycott of the Knicks (yes, I know this is a waste of time), please join if you're interested:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/183912708391673
How realistic is a Melo trade? Dolan was the driving force behind bringing him to New York. I can't see him allowing the Knicks to just punt and trade him after a year and a half. I also wonder what the market for Melo is.2. Trade Melo.
3. Hope Amare bounces back somewhat next season.
Why would they have taken Amare a month ago and not now? A month ago, they might have had hope they ll find a better trade, today Amare might be the best trade offer they get. Although tbh, I don't think Amare is going anywhere, because it's just not an acceptable trade for anyone.You can debate the relative severity of the Knicks' various flaws, or whether the one flaw that isn't fixable (Dolan) dwarfs the others, but it seems the Knicks' offseason plan should consist of three parts:
1. Fire D'Antoni and replace him with an outside hire.
2. Trade Melo.
3. Hope Amare bounces back somewhat next season.
They probably could have swapped Melo for Dwight Howard a month ago, then dealt Chandler (either right away, or this summer) for a wing. That might have given them the foundation for a contender. Now, they're nowhere.
Edit: Hell, a month ago, the Magic might have taken Amare for Howard.
No, they used their amnesty on Billups, so they could get Chandler.As far as Amare goes, could they amnesty him and spend the money elsewhere? He looks so old right now. I' d be very concerned that he might never rebound physically.
Amare might look better but he's not playing like a max player. Over his last 10 he's only averaging 16/8 while shooting .488 from the field. If you're paying a guy max money and that's the line he's putting up and he's not an elite defender then you're probably not going to do much in the playoffs.No, they used their amnesty on Billups, so they could get Chandler.
Amare has actually looked somewhat better in recent games, the issues for NY continue to be below-average coaching and below-average PG play. Lin is a good backup and may develop into a consistently solid starter, but right now every other guard in the league is gunning for him and it's gotten ugly pretty consistently, and Baron has shown flashes but is far from consistent as of yet.
I do think there are coaches out there who could get a lot more out of this team than D'Antoni has been doing, Carlisle, Adelman, Skiles even. I'm just not sure if any of them are available and I agree that Mike Woodson is probably not the answer.
That article is pretty damning, though just as much so of Anthony as of D'Antoni. What a mess of a franchise. I just put the rest of my tickets for the year on stubhub. And the best part is, somebody who bought into Linsanity and never went to a Knicks game before February is still going to be stupid enough to pay top dollar for them.Chris Broussard with some good reporting on the unraveling locker room:
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7684157/mike-dantoni-lost-new-york-knicks-locker-room-according-sources
I agree with the bolded. It's pathetic that D'Antoni refuses to alter his system at all, but it's also embarassing that Melo ignores what the coach is trying to do. I agree with the posters who say that D'Antoni would be a good college coach, because it seems clear he wants to run a specific system, regardless of the talents of his players. College would let him do that. But having Melo just stand around and spread the floor is a joke. Of course, it's even worse that Melo acts like a petulant child and does whatever he wants.That article is pretty damning, though just as much so of Anthony as of D'Antoni. What a mess of a franchise. I just put the rest of my tickets for the year on stubhub. And the best part is, somebody who bought into Linsanity and never went to a Knicks game before February is still going to be stupid enough to pay top dollar for them.
And if it's true that Phil Jackson is really their target, and there's a chance of that happening, isn't it going to be a waste to pay Lin the full mid-level to stick around? He's certainly not a good fit for the triangle, though I have a feeling that given how much money he makes Dolan, he's the starting point guard here for better or worse. There are definitely guys I'd prefer over Jackson.
See, this is the part that I think goes back to the personnel, and why I thinK D'Antoni is being unfairly maligned. Carmelo could be a great fit for that system, the problem is that the role he's best suited to is currently occupied by Amare, and ironically, Amare isn't particularly good at it. The Knicks front office did a terrible job of providing D'Antoni with players that fit what he does, and now they find themselves in a situation where they have no cap space, a lot of large contracts (one of which is unmoveable) and no discernible plan as to how to move forward and make it work. Carmelo wants the ball in the spots where Amare gets it. That's where he's most effective, and those are the parts of the floor the article mentions him drifting to. He's a much more effective post player than Amare, and is better at the elbow too. They simply get in each other's way. On top of that, adding Chandler to the mix reduced Amare's effectiveness in the system because he worked better at the 5 as the roll guy. And the worst part of all of this is that Knicks fans--a lot of them anyhow--are naive enough to believe that the pieces in place can win, and that all it's gonna take is better coaching and a different system. In the span of 5 games Carmelo Anthony gave up on trying to make this work. That really inspires a ton of confidence.I agree with the bolded. It's pathetic that D'Antoni refuses to alter his system at all, but it's also embarassing that Melo ignores what the coach is trying to do. I agree with the posters who say that D'Antoni would be a good college coach, because it seems clear he wants to run a specific system, regardless of the talents of his players. College would let him do that. But having Melo just stand around and spread the floor is a joke. Of course, it's even worse that Melo acts like a petulant child and does whatever he wants.
The more I think about it, the less I think the Dolan-Carmelo thing matters. At the time he pushed for that trade because he saw Carmelo as a fantastic marketing opportunity. Now Jeremy Lin's his meal ticket, and Melo is getting booed in pre-game introductions.If I were D'Antoni I'd put Melo at the end of the bench and go back to the formula that was winning games before Melo returned to the lineup. I'd dare Dolan to fire me. Unless Melo is traded D'Antoni ia gone in two months anyway.
Interesting trade rumor...but I wonder how long it would be before Melo butted heads with Stan Van Gundy.
Nor is Anthony fulfilling his presumed role as a clutch performer. He misfired repeatedly down the stretch in Chicago, adding to a string of fourth-quarter failures this season. He intentionally fouled Kyle Korver and sent him to the line on a key possession in the final minute, with the Knicks down by 4, after the players had been instructed to simply play defense.
Sloan with this team would be amazing. How long until a 70 year old Sloan challenges Carmelo to a bare knuckle fight?There's also another very interesting Knicks related rumor out there today, which is that Jerry Sloan would be interested in coaching the team. I have no idea why he'd be interested, but "sources" close to him said as much to Sam Amick.
I think Lin is for more likely to survive than Melo. No way Jackson wants anything to do with Melo.And if it's true that Phil Jackson is really their target, and there's a chance of that happening, isn't it going to be a waste to pay Lin the full mid-level to stick around? He's certainly not a good fit for the triangle, though I have a feeling that given how much money he makes Dolan, he's the starting point guard here for better or worse. There are definitely guys I'd prefer over Jackson.
Definitely sounds like D'Antoni's fault. Look people knew this was going to happen. Melo doesn't want to play team offense or defense. Without Melo getting injured this team probably won't make the playoffs.For the past 10 games, the Knicks have been demonstrably worse when Anthony plays. With Anthony on the court, the Knicks are scoring at a rate of 97.7 points per 100 possessions. When he is on the bench, that rating soars to 109.8. The contrast is just as sharp on defense: the Knicks give up 107.1 points per 100 possessions with Anthony on the court, 95.1 with Anthony on the bench. His personal differential, a minus-9.4 rating, is the worst on the team in that 10-game stretch.
This isn't about him deferring to Lin. It's about him buying into the team concept, and with the exception of Broussard, literally everybody else is reporting that the entire Knicks roster is frustrated with Carmelo for refusing to buy in. Carmelo Anthony is blatantly breaking out of the offense, refusing to stay in his spots, and demanding that other players adhere to his style. And when he plays, the Knicks are worse in every facet of the game. What has Carmelo done to earn the right to be a petulant child and put himself above the team?I'm more than happy to engage Orlando, but given what we know (he has his sights set on Brooklyn), there's no way I'm offering Melo. Either they can take Stoudemires contract or they can take a hike. Even if he left for the Nets, getting rid of Amare's deal would be sufficient reason to make that trade.
I'm sorry, I still blame D'Antoni for this over Melo (not that he's without blame). In what other basketball situation do we expect a ten year star to defer to a mid-tier rookie PG? In what basketball situation is the onus not on the coach to make sure his best player can succeed, and in turn help the team succeed? These are basic high school principles.
We can hem and haw and complain that Melo doesn't play like Lebron or Kurt Thomas or Charles Oakley or Willis Reed. But he is what he is. And he's not going to change, so its the coach's job to get the most out of him in that context. And frankly, he's been a better sport up until this point than I would have expected.
He has experience holding a team hostage while demanding to be let out of town.What has Carmelo done to earn the right to be a petulant child and put himself above the team?
Sure seems like D'Antoni's working hard at that relationship. I guess we can pretend that the NBA isn't a star league, and that the coach should be able to just say what he wants and all his guys follow it blindly. But frankly, that's not reality--and its the coaches job, more than anything else, to get the stars to play well. And he's not doing his job.From the Post:
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According to the source, Grunwald has had just one conversation with Anthony since he became GM. And D’Antoni rarely talks to Anthony after games, especially since Anthony’s return from a groin injury.
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D’Antoni rarely speaks in the same reverential tones about Anthony as he does about Lin, Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler.
When D’Antoni was asked after Monday’s loss to the Bulls if Anthony looked frustrated, D’Antoni replied, “More than normal, you mean? I don’t know. You’ll have to ask him.’’
I'd be inclined to agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that everybody else on the team was on board with D'Antoni.Sure seems like D'Antoni's working hard at that relationship. I guess we can pretend that the NBA isn't a star league, and that the coach should be able to just say what he wants and all his guys follow it blindly. But frankly, that's not reality--and its the coaches job, more than anything else, to get the stars to play well. And he's not doing his job.
A month ago, Amare was a guy who was recently a top 10-15 player who was slumping -- and of course had bad knees, and a bad contract. Melo was a top 20 player without any of Amare's baggage. Faced with the prospect of Howard leaving for nothing, and with the Magic seemingly headed for a one-and-done in this season's playoffs, I think they would have done the Melo deal, and would even have been tempted by the Amare deal.Why would they have taken Amare a month ago and not now? A month ago, they might have had hope they ll find a better trade, today Amare might be the best trade offer they get. Although tbh, I don't think Amare is going anywhere, because it's just not an acceptable trade for anyone.
Or maybe they could experiment with not playing Melo and Amare at the same time so much...hard to do with the number of minutes they play, but if Melo is purposely not playing in the system that's in place then maybe he shouldn't be playing so much.. it would seem to start to explain the lack of movement and confusion on the offensive end.As the Knicks roster is currently constructed, Chandler has to start at Center and Amare at PF right? if Amare starts at PF, then Carmello needs to start at SF right?
An NBA team, not just D'Antoni's team, but any NBA team, needs a 3 point deep threat right? If your starting backcourt is Lin and Fields or even Schumpert, then who else other than Anthony is supposed to sit on the 3 point line keeping defenses honest and creating the space for the rest of the offense.
If by some magical way, the Knicks got rid of Amare, then they can play the roster much more to its strengths. They can move Carmelo at PF and use Novak or a new wing signing as the deep threat.
I agree, but show me a coach that would bench a purported superstar and I ll show you a coach with a big locker room problem on his way out the door.Or maybe they could experiment with not playing Melo and Amare at the same time so much...hard to do with the number of minutes they play, but if Melo is purposely not playing in the system that's in place then maybe he shouldn't be playing so much.. it would seem to start to explain the lack of movement and confusion on the offensive end.
D'Antoni has little to lose -- he's out the door anyway if the Knicks don't make the playoffs. Cutting Amare and Melo to 30 minutes apiece per night, and minimizing the minutes they're on the floor together, seems like a sensible strategy.I agree, but show me a coach that would bench a purported superstar and I ll show you a coach with a big locker room problem on his way out the door.