Jacksonity......or the Knick thread

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
As the Knicks roster is currently constructed, Chandler has to start at Center and Amare at PF right? if Amare starts at PF, then Carmello needs to start at SF right?

An NBA team, not just D'Antoni's team, but any NBA team, needs a 3 point deep threat right? If your starting backcourt is Lin and Fields or even Schumpert, then who else other than Anthony is supposed to sit on the 3 point line keeping defenses honest and creating the space for the rest of the offense?

If by some magical way, the Knicks got rid of Amare, then they can play the roster much more to its strengths. They can move Carmelo at PF and use Novak or a new wing signing as the deep threat.
The perfect compliment would be a guy who shoots the 3 well, rebounds his position decently, plays defense, can handle the ball, and most importantly, gets to the line so that he can get points without take 20 shots a game. You know, somebody like Danillo Gallinari.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
The perfect compliment would be a guy who shoots the 3 well, rebounds his position decently, plays defense, can handle the ball, and most importantly, gets to the line so that he can get points without take 20 shots a game. You know, somebody like Danillo Gallinari.
I was with you until that didn't end with "You know, somebody like Wilson Chandler." Lets not revise history so thoroughly as to pretend Gallo played defense!
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
I didn't mention Melo at all in that post. In fact, in this very thread I'm one of the few people who has defended Melo's defensive abilities. But, okay.
Sorry--read your post of "making an effort" as inferring that Melo doesn't. Carry on.

I have no idea how I've become Melo's staunchest advocate here, but shit I just love watching the guy when he's on.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,784
I wonder if Amare could regain at least some of his form playing center like he did when he had success with the Knicks. SInge they've acquired Chandler, Amare's been off, now having to maneuver his gimpy legs around PF s instead of too slow centers. And if he does get going, there's another big on defense to contend with.

It's really sad that this guy went from someone with comic book hops to this. They should take him out six minutes into tthe game, then have him sub in for Chandler and play half his minutes at backup center, using Novak with him to spread the floor.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
Well, the anti D'Antoni crowd has gotten their wish. Which, for some reason, involved Mike Woodson.

Dan D'Antoni and Phil Weber are out too, so the Knicks have no coaching staff outside of Woodson. Nothing but iso's from here on out.

I wish I thought this was good news.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
Well, the anti D'Antoni crowd has gotten their wish. Which, for some reason, involved Mike Woodson.

Dan D'Antoni and Phil Weber are out too, so the Knicks have no coaching staff outside of Woodson. Nothing but iso's from here on out.

I wish I thought this was good news.
Herrrrrrrrb!

I have no idea what's going to happen here now with the roster. Do you go for a full housecleaning and make the Melo/Tyson for Howard deal if its on the table in 24 hours?
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
Herrrrrrrrb!

I have no idea what's going to happen here now with the roster. Do you go for a full housecleaning and make the Melo/Tyson for Howard deal if its on the table in 24 hours?
I guarantee the front office has no plan in place. They'll ride out the rest of this season, miss the playoffs, and get shot down by Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, and settle on their fourth choice. Either that, or Dolan will just bring back Isiah tomorrow. It seems like anytime the organization is in any sort of flux, that's the first call Dolan makes.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
20,688
Row 14
Herrrrrrrrb!

I have no idea what's going to happen here now with the roster. Do you go for a full housecleaning and make the Melo/Tyson for Howard deal if its on the table in 24 hours?
Howard will jump the river to Brooklyn in a second once gets his chance this summer.
 

Stu Nahan

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2003
5,740
I still don't see what this fixes. The Knicks are a disaster. I feel like this year has to be the worst in this run of futility. Factoring in the expectations going into the year and the way it has unfolded, this has been especially awful.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
Yeah, it doesn't fix anything, unless you believe Chris Broussard, who says the Knicks had tuned D'Antoni out.

If you believe Howard Beck, Ken Berger, or Al Iannazzone, though, this probably made things worse. They all reported today that Knicks players--Amare included--supported D'Antoni and were frustrated with Carmelo for refusing to buy into the system. And based on body language on the court, and Chris Broussard's record, I'm much more inclined to trust Beck and Berger.

So basically, the message was sent that this is Carmelo's team and that it's okay for him to stomp his feet, sit out of huddles, and show up his teammates when they don't get him the ball exactly where he wants it. Knicks basketball at its finest.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
I think Melo would be well advised to come out tonight and go 12/15 for 32/10/8 and take a few charges. That's the best and only way for him to win this argument.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
11,877
I'd be inclined to agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that everybody else on the team was on board with D'Antoni.

But I get it, you hate D'Antoni and that's not gonna change. Fair enough.
And most 'STARS' play within a teams defense at the least and usually attempt to make some effort to play within a teams offense.

At what point do you (3rd person 'you') start blaming a star for bringing a team down for his own stats? The team obviously plays better with Melo (I always read that as MElo) off the court. I think Melo thinks he's a top 5 player without having to try...but when you know a player is going to try and take the last shot every time..or is going to go 1 on 1 or 1 on 5 or whatever..it makes the other teams defense that much easier. Especially if that player is not hitting his shots. I guess I could be wrong..but given the Knicks diverse talent and overall mediocre talent to above average talent they seem to play far better as a team with or without Melo on the floor..if Melo doesn't buy in he shouldn't be out there..and definitely shouldn't be encouraged.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
Woodson displaying vastly different substitution patterns in the first quarter. Brings in the entire second unit for the last 3-4 minutes of the first. Change!
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,229
Big win for NY in Indiana, who came out really hard after being embarrassed by the Knicks last night in NY (down by 30 after 3). But after a big first quarter, IND had only 53 points in the last three quarters, and Lin had his best game in weeks, drawing foul calls and frustrating the defense, and making a bunch of slick plays on D, doubling down, etc. Melo was pretty bad, but it didn't matter, and Woodson is really into the games, yelling at players when they have obvious bad fuckups, and calling timeouts when he should.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
Big win for NY in Indiana, who came out really hard after being embarrassed by the Knicks last night in NY (down by 30 after 3). But after a big first quarter, IND had only 53 points in the last three quarters, and Lin had his best game in weeks, drawing foul calls and frustrating the defense, and making a bunch of slick plays on D, doubling down, etc. Melo was pretty bad, but it didn't matter, and Woodson is really into the games, yelling at players when they have obvious bad fuckups, and calling timeouts when he should.
You and Bartlett were definitely right about this. It's had a really serious effect, very quickly. In fact, given some of the quotes I've read, I think I misinterpreted the view the players had of D'Antoni. Even Amare seems to be on board. I still have some doubts about Woodson's offense, but he's definitely provided a spark to a team that needed one badly.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,229
They still don't have much margin for error, they need to keep this intensity up every game (or almost every game at least), but things look a lot better than they did a week ago.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
I really like the way Woodson has made J.R. Smith the first guy off the bench consistently. The first team can play a lot better if there's a three point threat on the floor, and if he's hitting his shots that becomes a pretty formidable unit. If you play it down the stretch and go offense/defense with Lin/Shumpert and Amare/Jeffries, its a very strong defensive unit as well to close out the game.

Some other thoughts:

-Accountability. When he pulled Smith off the floor and confronted him at the end of the first Pacers game, I was impressed. Though its a fairly routine thing for a strong NBA head coach to do, its not something we've seen here since Van Gundy. (Well, I guess Larry Brown did it but that had some other issues attached). It highlighted for me exactly what D'Antoni did not do. Really, the difference between a guy who has a spine and a guy who learned basketball in Italy.

-Predictably, the "HOW IS THIS GOING TO EFFECT LINSANITY???!?!??!?!?!??!" "RIP LINSANITY!!!!!!" "MELO KILLED LINSANITY (and probably all other Asians too, so you should hate him)" headlines were beyond overwrought. Francesa, by the way, was the absolute worst about this. God he was insufferable--it was like if he wasn't playing point guard in D'Antoni's system the position was entirely eliminated. Basically, the real difference so far has been that he has a little less responsibility in decision-making, gets rid of the ball a bit faster and plays a few fewer minutes (when Davis is healthy). The horror!

-I love love love the way he's introduced some actual defensive concepts, like throwing a little full court and trapping on the screen and roll when Jeffries is on the court. Its almost as if you can coach that side of the ball and try some different things on the defensive end as well! Who knew????

Big picture, they have an absolute dog fight on their hands to make the playoffs. But if they can get in, I'd really like how they match up with Atlanta, Philly and Indiana. Doubtful they'd get a shot at those guys in the first round though.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
Also, one other thought:

I wonder if there isn't some role left for Toney Douglas. Good on the ball defenders arent easy to find, especially when you would have to face the likes of Rose, Rondo, etc.

Or is that role totally subsumed by Shumpert?
 

Brickowski

Banned
Feb 15, 2011
3,755
It highlighted for me exactly what D'Antoni did not do. Really, the difference between a guy who has a spine and a guy who learned basketball in Italy.
Actually D'Antoni learned to play basketball in West Virginia, where he grew up and then starred at Marshall. He then went to the the NBA where he played in Kansas City for Bob Cousy (among others). Later he played in the ABA.
 

Nick Kaufman

protector of human kind from spoilers
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 2, 2003
13,444
A Lost Time
Give it a couple of months Knicks fans; I am sure you will find infuriating faults with Woodson as well.

PS. I am not trolling. I am just always bewildered the way most coaches are hailed like Messias when they take up a job only to be driven out as insufferable goats in due course.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
Actually D'Antoni learned to play basketball in West Virginia, where he grew up and then starred at Marshall. He then went to the the NBA where he played in Kansas City for Bob Cousy (among others). Later he played in the ABA.
Yes, I know. My Continental insult was purely rhetorical, not really based in fact.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
I really like the way Woodson has made J.R. Smith the first guy off the bench consistently. The first team can play a lot better if there's a three point threat on the floor, and if he's hitting his shots that becomes a pretty formidable unit. If you play it down the stretch and go offense/defense with Lin/Shumpert and Amare/Jeffries, its a very strong defensive unit as well to close out the game.

Some other thoughts:

-Accountability. When he pulled Smith off the floor and confronted him at the end of the first Pacers game, I was impressed. Though its a fairly routine thing for a strong NBA head coach to do, its not something we've seen here since Van Gundy. (Well, I guess Larry Brown did it but that had some other issues attached). It highlighted for me exactly what D'Antoni did not do. Really, the difference between a guy who has a spine and a guy who learned basketball in Italy.

-Predictably, the "HOW IS THIS GOING TO EFFECT LINSANITY???!?!??!?!?!??!" "RIP LINSANITY!!!!!!" "MELO KILLED LINSANITY (and probably all other Asians too, so you should hate him)" headlines were beyond overwrought. Francesa, by the way, was the absolute worst about this. God he was insufferable--it was like if he wasn't playing point guard in D'Antoni's system the position was entirely eliminated. Basically, the real difference so far has been that he has a little less responsibility in decision-making, gets rid of the ball a bit faster and plays a few fewer minutes (when Davis is healthy). The horror!

-I love love love the way he's introduced some actual defensive concepts, like throwing a little full court and trapping on the screen and roll when Jeffries is on the court. Its almost as if you can coach that side of the ball and try some different things on the defensive end as well! Who knew????

Big picture, they have an absolute dog fight on their hands to make the playoffs. But if they can get in, I'd really like how they match up with Atlanta, Philly and Indiana. Doubtful they'd get a shot at those guys in the first round though.
For the record, they're still running D'Antoni's system. Woodson seems to be slowly incorporating some new sets, but from what I've seen at least 85% of the sets are still D'Antoni sets. Also, Jeffries trapped on the screen and roll pretty much every time he was on the court under D'Antoni, too.

For the most part, the main difference I've noticed is that there's more accountability and that Carmelo and others are actually making an effort on both ends of the floor, which are welcome additions to the fold.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,229
Also, one other thought:

I wonder if there isn't some role left for Toney Douglas. Good on the ball defenders arent easy to find, especially when you would have to face the likes of Rose, Rondo, etc.

Or is that role totally subsumed by Shumpert?
I don't think we know the whole story with Douglas, either his shoulder is hurt or he has crippling mental issues, because there is no other excuse for a healthy 26 year old to fall off a cliff like he did. I would certainly like to see him play before Bibby, but people still don't seem to understand how integral Shumpert getting 25-30 minutes is to this team. In games that he's missed or played under 19 minutes, NY is 2-8, 19-16 when he gets 19 minutes or more.
 

NatetheGreat

New Member
Aug 27, 2007
619
The raptors are an awful team, but the Knicks really do look worlds better these days. And for all that people credited Lin's production to D'antoni, he's actually looked better under Woodson--more controlled, and better spacing on the pick and roll.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,229
Milwaukee keeps pace by winning their sixth in a row, blowing out Portland on the road.

NY goes to Philly (who had the night off) tomorrow, that'll be a huge test especially considering the Philly game ten days ago was presumably the last nail in D'Antoni's coffin, sporadic effort from NY in a crucial home game.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,229
Tonight they somehow played stifling D in the 4th quarter without Chandler or Jeffries. Philly has had trouble scoring against everyone, but still nice to hold the division leaders to 15 points in the 4th quarter (plus 6 meaningless ones in the last 20 seconds) on the road in a big game with a lineup of Amare, Melo, Smith, Shumpert and Lin.
 

Murderer's Crow

Dragon Wangler 216
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,595
Garden City
Still some work to do on their turnovers but that's just who they are. I saw quite a few disgusting turnovers tonight. Lin has a WTF was that at least once per game.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,229
Still some work to do on their turnovers but that's just who they are. I saw quite a few disgusting turnovers tonight. Lin has a WTF was that at least once per game.
Philly is one of the best defensive teams in the league (I think statistically they are actually 1st), they force you into ugly games.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
Too late now, but I would've liked them to add Turiaf back. Jeffries' injuries show just how thin they can be up front--I'm not sure Harrelson is ready for significant minutes.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,229
I think they're probably still banned from picking up Turiaf, right? They dumped him, what, four months ago?

I like Jorts and I think Jerome Jordan has shown some promise in his very limited minutes.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
I think they're probably still banned from picking up Turiaf, right? They dumped him, what, four months ago?

I like Jorts and I think Jerome Jordan has shown some promise in his very limited minutes.
I hadn't thought of that, actually, but I think that March 1st was the date that traded/newly signed players were eligible to move again. Regardless, he's headed elsewhere anyhow.

I definitely love me some Jorts, and see where you're coming from with Jerome Jordan, but I'm biased. I remember watching him in college and thinking that he just didn't have the skills to ever amount to much in the NBA. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but I feel like every draft has a couple of Jerome Jordans in it.
 

A Bartlett Giamatti

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,049
I think they're probably still banned from picking up Turiaf, right? They dumped him, what, four months ago?

I like Jorts and I think Jerome Jordan has shown some promise in his very limited minutes.
Fair point on the re-acquisition. I like Jorts too--decent post defender and spot up shooter, but I just don't trust him yet in a big spot. Jordan is D-league fodder--has no idea where he's going and gets consistently pushed around. Maybe in a year he's a borderline rotation guy, but not now.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,229
"A re-acquisition isn’t allowed until the following July 1. So, for example, the Lakers can’t trade for Lamar Odom."

http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-salary-cap-chat-with-larry-coon-3712

And I'm not saying Jordan can help at all this year, but wouldn't want to release him.