What's your stance on black ink?sure 32x 3 =96
15x3= 45
so 96-45 =51
his reputation took a big hit with the eckersley fiasco, fans around the game see david as a headcase, and if we're honest we see him as less than reliable, in 2017 we wanted him gone too
if you disagree i leave it to you to find links from credible sources that his value is higher. you cant and you know it
I'm not saying we have to like it. What I am saying is that it does nobody any good to set unreasonable standards for a return which only winds up with expectations that leave us disappointed. price won 7 games last year and 29 over the past 3 seasons. What would we pay for that if we were acquiring him?In fairness, his arithmetic is spot on.
Which one of us are you talking to?The only thing worse than a terrible poster is one who won't stop posting. See you in January.
This is literally the opposite of the truth. Price has an incredible reputation as a teammate. In fact, during and after the World Series, Price was referred to multiple times on TV and in print as the single most beloved teammate in his clubhouse both with the Sox and previous teams:he doesnt have a great reputation around the sport.
To be fair, they were referring to their Fortnite squad.Before he goes ...
This is literally the opposite of the truth. Price has an incredible reputation as a teammate. In fact, during and after the World Series, Price was referred to multiple times on TV and in print as the single most beloved teammate in his clubhouse both with the Sox and previous teams:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/12/03/former-teammates-full-praise-for-david-price/tDKMCZYg3jc3De2DrCLdgL/story.html
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/david-ortiz-david-price-one-best-teammates-i-ever-had
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2018/09/david_prices_boston_red_sox_te.html
If we're a go for letting fans' perceptions of players factor into their value on the field then I need to move on to some other obsession. From what I have read over his years here in Boston, David Price has been very much valued as a team mate. That may not jive with 'our' perception of him, but it appears to be consistent and, I'd think, perhaps of some value.sure 32x 3 =96
15x3= 45
so 96-45 =51
his reputation took a big hit with the eckersley fiasco, fans around the game see david as a headcase, and if we're honest we see him as less than reliable, in 2017 we wanted him gone too
if you disagree i leave it to you to find links from credible sources that his value is higher. you cant and you know it
I understand the feelings, and share them to an extent, but I would also counter with the observation that the Red Sox turned an excellent cache of prospects into a World Championship by keeping the best players and trading the surplus to fill other needs. While the Yankees are deservedly the odds-on favorites to win one or more titles in the near future, the end result remains to be seen. The 2019 Red Sox, 2018-19 Astros and 2017-19 Cubs are all excellent reminders that teams that once looked loaded on paper often underperform or otherwise stumble on the way to the victory parade.How different these two organizations are right now....
The Red Sox have very little in the minors. They are over the luxury tax threshold and are desperately trying to get under it. Their best player is a year away from leaving in free agency and so they're exploring ways to deal him, knowing that even if they do, they're not likely to get much back in return. They're talking about trading one of their best starting pitchers for money reasons. They've added Jose Peraza (62 ops+) and Martin Perez (90 era+).
The Yankees have a ton of top level talent in the minors. They are in great shape financially. Their best players are under contract for a while longer. They just signed Gerrit Cole, the best starting pitcher in baseball, to a mega deal. And now they're looking to add Josh F***ing Hader to their already stacked bullpen.
It was just a year ago that everything was different - that the Sox were the best team in baseball by a wide margin, brimming with young stars and elite pitching. And now, a year+ later, the Sox and Yankees couldn't be headed in more opposite directions.
It's so depressing.
This was the Dave Dombrowski decision. He was hired to prioritize the short term over the long term. I wouldn't have done that, but it's a legitimate strategy. Had I been doing the job, we'd have more in the pipeline now, but we might not have had literally the best season in the history of a franchise that's over a century old. The goal is to win the world series as many times as possible before you die. Maximizing your chances of winning in the short-term is a legitimate strategy. So is maximizing the number of chances you get.How different these two organizations are right now....
The Red Sox have very little in the minors. They are over the luxury tax threshold and are desperately trying to get under it. Their best player is a year away from leaving in free agency and so they're exploring ways to deal him, knowing that even if they do, they're not likely to get much back in return. They're talking about trading one of their best starting pitchers for money reasons. They've added Jose Peraza (62 ops+) and Martin Perez (90 era+).
The Yankees have a ton of top level talent in the minors. They are in great shape financially. Their best players are under contract for a while longer. They just signed Gerrit Cole, the best starting pitcher in baseball, to a mega deal. And now they're looking to add Josh F***ing Hader to their already stacked bullpen.
It was just a year ago that everything was different - that the Sox were the best team in baseball by a wide margin, brimming with young stars and elite pitching. And now, a year+ later, the Sox and Yankees couldn't be headed in more opposite directions.
It's so depressing.
I'll never understand this line of thinking.How different these two organizations are right now....
The Red Sox have very little in the minors. They are over the luxury tax threshold and are desperately trying to get under it. Their best player is a year away from leaving in free agency and so they're exploring ways to deal him, knowing that even if they do, they're not likely to get much back in return. They're talking about trading one of their best starting pitchers for money reasons. They've added Jose Peraza (62 ops+) and Martin Perez (90 era+).
The Yankees have a ton of top level talent in the minors. They are in great shape financially. Their best players are under contract for a while longer. They just signed Gerrit Cole, the best starting pitcher in baseball, to a mega deal. And now they're looking to add Josh F***ing Hader to their already stacked bullpen.
It was just a year ago that everything was different - that the Sox were the best team in baseball by a wide margin, brimming with young stars and elite pitching. And now, a year+ later, the Sox and Yankees couldn't be headed in more opposite directions.
It's so depressing.
Chad is limited to 2b and he's not particularly good there either. I'm not high on Chatham but he's a good defender.What am I missing about Chad De la Guerra that he is not part of the discussion at 2B or cheap utility man?
his last three seasons have been very good for a middle infielder, each year moving up a level. The biggest knock seems to me to be that he was 2 years older than you’d like at each level, and that’s not inconsequential admittedly. His K rate is Dalbecian as well, but declined some from AA to AAA, which is good.
Nonetheless, we keep seeing that Chatham and his empty batting average is an option. They saw plenty of Marco swing-at-everything Hernandez all last fall to know what he’s bringing. By contrast, De la Guerra has had roughly average walk rates, solid isoSLG, to an OPS of 805 in AA in 2018 and 901 in AAA last year I would think there’s room for at least an open competition between these three in spring training.
Yeah I'm not NOT going to watch or root for the Sox, even if they trade Mookie. But it's pretty clear that the direction these two franchises are going is...very different. Hopefully the Sox can still make it work on the field.I'll never understand this line of thinking.
The Sox won the World Series in historic fashion in 2018. They won it in an extremely enjoyable fashion in 2013. The Yankees haven't won a World Series since 2009, and before that 2000. That's when things were depressing--in 2000. It's been an amazing decade after an amazing decade.
On paper, the Yankees look great. But they haven't won shit. And their young players are going to start getting expensive pretty soon and tough decisions are going to have to be made. The Sox may be rebooting a bit, but they still have a core of excellent, fun players, even if they do trade Mookie. I mean, the Nats lost Harper and proceeded to win a World Series. Stuff happens. Things might look a whole lot different once again a year+ later.
Someone once told me that that's why they actually play the games.
I think the age/level is the biggest knock, as you note, but one more thing to keep in mind with him is that his BABIPs are all really high.What am I missing about Chad De la Guerra that he is not part of the discussion at 2B or cheap utility man?
his last three seasons have been very good for a middle infielder, each year moving up a level. The biggest knock seems to me to be that he was 2 years older than you’d like at each level, and that’s not inconsequential admittedly. His K rate is Dalbecian as well, but declined some from AA to AAA, which is good.
Nonetheless, we keep seeing that Chatham and his empty batting average is an option. They saw plenty of Marco swing-at-everything Hernandez all last fall to know what he’s bringing. By contrast, De la Guerra has had roughly average walk rates, solid isoSLG, to an OPS of 805 in AA in 2018 and 901 in AAA last year I would think there’s room for at least an open competition between these three in spring training.
Well boo hoo.Yeah I'm not NOT going to watch or root for the Sox, even if they trade Mookie. But it's pretty clear that the direction these two franchises are going is...very different. Hopefully the Sox can still make it work on the field.
What are the other reasons teams trade players for?They're talking about trading one of their best starting pitchers for money reasons.
Many interpretations of the data suggest that that may not actually be possible; it’s just statistics and not everyone lands on the mean. But then we build stories around why the lottery winners are good at it. The reality is that it’s just something that happened, because something always happens and when you have a lot of teams, a lot of different things happen.We must get better at drafting pitching, period.
Teams make trades for all kinds of reasons:What are the other reasons teams trade players for?
Your first answer is literally “money.”Teams make trades for all kinds of reasons:
- To save money.
- To add minor league prospects.
- To get rid of problem players.
- To, you know, get better.
I agree that you can't do it all, year in and year out.Well boo hoo.
We can’t be perennial contenders, keep everyone, stock that’s farm and buy big free agents and do it all at once. The game is cyclical and people are too down on what this team can still do next year.
I didn't mind "stripping" the farm system, as it brought in key pieces in the greatest season in Sox history. I don't like the overall direction they're going though, especially compared to the Yankees. You can say "boo hoo" all you want, but I can't imagine YOU are happy with this direction either - with possibly trading Price and Betts to get under the luxury tax, with very little in the farm system, while the Yankees absolutely load up. I mean, ARE you happy with this situation? Maybe you are.For everyone wringing their hands over Dombroswki stripping the farm system, I still have yet to see anyone other than possibly Moncacda that has turned into something valuable.
I couldn't care less about Espinoza and Margot.Farm systems are for two things, stocking the big league club and trading. He seems to have done a pretty damn good job protecting guys like Devers, Benintendi, etc and sending out the excess. It’s time to get over the Anderson Espinozas and Manuel Margots...
No kidding. That was the topic at hand.Your first answer is literally “money.”
They trade players for other players. Is this a trick question?What are the other reasons teams trade players for?
1. He's a "problem" in the sense that the very sizable value he contributes is likely to be gone a year from now, and the Sox have to decide what is the best strategy for minimizing the impact of that loss.Because Betts doesn't fit the other categories: he's not a problem, they won't likely get much in return (so everyone here says), and dealing him sure won't make them better.
I get all that. And I’m not happy about it. Especially as the Yankees turn into an absolute monster. Are you?1. He's a "problem" in the sense that the very sizable value he contributes is likely to be gone a year from now, and the Sox have to decide what is the best strategy for minimizing the impact of that loss.
2. Whoever trades for him acquires the same problem, which is why they won't get as much in return as everybody instinctively thinks Mookie Betts ought to fetch (but still more than they'd get by just hanging onto him).
3. Dealing him certainly won't make them better in 2020. But 2020 is not and should not be the only year they are thinking about.
Why does any of this matter? You do realize this can completely change over the course of the season right? Teams only have 40 roster spots and some will be forced to trade prospects or lose them for nothing.I get all that. And I’m not happy about it. Especially as the Yankees turn into an absolute monster. Are you?
Well, of course not. I'm not happy about the fact that I'm growing old and eventually dying, either, but that doesn't mean that it's anybody's fault or that anything can be done to change it.I get all that. And I’m not happy about it. Especially as the Yankees turn into an absolute monster. Are you?
Best post in the thread.Well, of course not. I'm not happy about the fact that I'm growing old and eventually dying, either, but that doesn't mean that it's anybody's fault or that anything can be done to change it.
2018 was a helluva party. This is the hangover.
I mean, I guess this is theoretically true if the 2-4 are Trout and Acuna and their clones, but in general it really isn't the case. The Rays and Padres and Yankees have a ton of prospect depth. This is a bit out of date now, but in Dec 2017 I asked Jim Callis a question for his mailbag:The difference between the worst farm and the best farm is an extra 2-4 prospects.
I was talking top 100 guys. A top 50 list of the Redsox/Yanks will consist of a lot of players who aren't driving the rankings.I mean, I guess this is theoretically true if the 2-4 are Trout and Acuna and their clones, but in general it really isn't the case. The Rays and Padres and Yankees have a ton of prospect depth. This is a bit out of date now, but in Dec 2017 I asked Jim Callis a question for his mailbag:
=================================
Q: if you were making a combined top 50 list of Yankees and Red Sox prospects now, how many Yankees would be on there? I'm guessing at least 35-40, but would love to hear your take.
A: Interesting. The Red Sox had the best farm system in baseball as recently as mid-2015 but have slipped into the bottom third after a slew of graduations and trades. The Yankees also have promoted several of their best prospects to New York and dealt others during the last two years, yet still have one of the game's deepest systems.
Bearing in mind that our current Boston and New York Top 30s on Prospect Watch were mostly assembled in July and will undergo some major revisions when we update them in February, a combined Top 50 would include about 35 Yankees and 15 Red Sox. The contrast would be even more stark at the top, with left-hander Jay Groome and third baseman Michael Chavis the only Boston farmhands who would crack a combined Top 10.
==================================
I think that would still be the case, about 35 Yankees to 15 Red Sox, but I will try to ask him again this winter and get a new answer.
OK, but so what? When you talk about the best teams in baseball, you don’t just talk about the best hundred major leaguers and ignore everyone else, star power is obviously important but so is depth. This is even more true for the top farm systems where there are 100+ players in every system, not just 25.I was talking top 100 guys. A top 50 list of the Redsox/Yanks will consist of a lot of players who aren't driving the rankings.
Because the top is where all the value comes from. No one cares what a minor league teams record is. Yoan Moncada is worth an infinite amount of Luis Alexander Basabe's.OK, but so what? When you talk about the best teams in baseball, you don’t just talk about the best hundred major leaguers and ignore everyone else, star power is obviously important but so is depth. This is even more true for the top farm systems where there are 100+ players in every system, not just 25.
I feel like you're just making declarative statements now for no reason, but this isn't true.Because the top is where all the value comes from.
Agreed, no one is talking about this.No one cares what a minor league teams record is.
Sure, except when Basabe turns out to be Juan Soto or Luis Severino, two guys off the top of my head who were not especially highly regarded initially.Yoan Moncada is worth an infinite amount of Luis Alexander Basabe's.
It really depends on the system, this is what I am trying to explain to you.Top 30-50 Team list are mostly filler too.
Can you prove it? Even when the Sox had an incredibly deep farm system, Basabe was still a fringe top 10 guy. Most prospects fail. It's why some people are fine with trading them away.It really depends on the system, this is what I am trying to explain to you.
This is why you're much better off if you have 30 prospects with potential as opposed to 10, this is my main point here.Most prospects fail.
He proves my point. The Sox could have a guy or two come from out of nowhere and are now a top 10-15 farm system. He was on nobodies list. One or two guys can change the whole outlook of the farm.I could come up with a lot more examples quickly if I did this professionally, but Shane Bieber was on no prospect lists coming into 2018, and now is one of the most valuable assets in all of MLB, just two years later.
https://www.letsgotribe.com/2018/5/31/17412706/shane-bieber-scouting-report-mlb-clippers-indians-pitchers
Even just sticking to the Indians, Corey Kuber (now a Ranger) and Jose Ramirez were two more guys who no one saw developing like they did until they actually did.
I agree with this. The thing is, the difference between the 52nd best prospect in the minors and the 98th is pretty small. When you start comparing the difference between the 24th best prospect on the Yankees to the 24th best prospect on the Redsox, it becomes pretty pointless.This is why you're much better off if you have 30 prospects with potential as opposed to 10, this is my main point here.
But it really isn't, just looking at the first list I see for 2017 NY prospects:I agree with this. The thing is, the difference between the 52nd best prospect in the minors and the 98th is pretty small. When you start comparing the difference between the 24th best prospect on the Yankees to the 24th best prospect on the Redsox, it becomes pretty pointless.
Hmm. Not where I’d thought he’d go.Red Sox and Toronto are talking about a Price trade. Nothing is close. As is the case with most teams, the holdup is how much money the Red Sox would pick up.
https://theathletic.com/1480955/2019/12/22/rosenthal-david-price-in-play-as-blue-jays-weigh-options-to-upgrade-pitching-while-red-sox-look-to-dump-salary/