Do not teams usually appoint an interim manager? If so, could be anyone. Likely candidates could be: Febles, Varitek and Tracy. But, probably it would be a guy who is already in house.With whom would you replace him?
Sure, if you are throwing in your cards. But who the next guy to lead the team for realz?Do not teams usually appoint an interim manager? If so, could be anyone. Likely candidates could be: Febles, Varitek and Tracy. But, probably it would be a guy who is already in house.
If it does happen, my guess is it would be during the All-Star break.
I agree with this. A managerial change mid season would mean that ownership expected to win this year, blowing the whole alibi that they’re building for long term success. That would invite a very large spotlight to critique Bloom’s MLB roster construction.I think they only make a managerial change if ownership expected a better team and Bloom needs a scapegoat. No indication that is the case, as far as I can tell.
“We've got to keep talking to them,” manager Alex Cora said. “We talked about it today and we did it again, and we’ll talk about it tomorrow. That’s the only way we can do it. We can take all the infield [practice] in the world and take ground balls like we’ve been doing since Spring Training -- there’s nothing new."
“We’ve been doing this from the get-go. But decisions in the game, we've got to be smarter. And it’s on us to keep talking and keep preaching and keep showing them. And hopefully we can start making better decisions out there.”
https://www.mlb.com/news/red-sox-defense-falters-in-first-loss-to-marlins-since-2009?game_pk=717605
Ever heard of the phrase, "They won in spite of him?" Yeah, that's the case here. In 2021, Bloom picked up Schwarber and Iglesias, and they and Dalbec carried the team to the end of the regular season. As for 2018, the team was so great there was no stopping it.He was certainly terrible in 2018. And 2021.
Yeah, I also have no idea who that guy should be.I'd name an interim manager then conduct interviews for the managerial position after the season's end. I mean, I wouldn't be too upset if he lasts out the year, but no longer than that.
I've heard the phrase. It's usually (not always) a post-hoc excuse used by people who get a different outcome than they expected in 2 of the 4.5 seasons that the manager has been managing.Ever heard of the phrase, "They won in spite of him?" Yeah, that's the case here. In 2021, Bloom picked up Schwarber and Iglesias, and they and Dalbec carried the team to the end of the regular season. As for 2018, the team was so great there was no stopping it.
Looking at the big picture, though, Cora makes bad managerial decisions on a regular basis, which is why he needs to go before next year.
Varitek seems to be being groomed for the role as Red Sox manager. I think he would take over if Cora is fired before the end of the season. In that case, upper management could get a look at Jason and how he operates during this lost season and whether a search should be conducted during the off-season for a permanent solution.Cora has been bad for years. Why on earth would you want to keep him?
Hey - what are you doing tomorrow? Any plans?Yeah, I also have no idea who that guy should be.
Welcome to the team!I've heard the phrase. It's usually (not always) a post-hoc excuse used by people who get a different outcome than they expected in 2 of the 4.5 seasons that the manager has been managing.
As for bad managerial decisions, like batting average (or OPS vs OPS+), how does his bad-decision average stack up? Maybe he's the worst; maybe he isn't. I don't know, and I dont know where to find out. That's why I'm on @8slim's team ambivalence.
Well, I thought I did last year when the Vikings fired Mike Zimmer (I'd been screaming for that for a few years!). I wanted Doug Pederson, I got Kevin O'Connell. It worked out pretty well anyway. Unfortunately though, as a Vikings fan, I haven't had the luxury of knowing Bill Belichick was going to be my team's head coach every year.Yeah, I also have no idea who that guy should be.
Not as to Varitek specifically, but do teams do that -- bring in an interim who they think has potential to be "the guy" long-term to "see how he operates?" I hope it would take something really extreme to change their view on whether they think he's the guy. If they think that, they should give him the job in the winter, not in the midst of what they'd be admitting is a lost season.Varitek seems to be being groomed for the role as Red Sox manager. I think he would take over if Cora is fired before the end of the season. In that case, upper management could get a look at Jason and how he operates during this lost season and whether a search should be conducted during the off-season for a permanent solution.
Edit: I'm sorry for using the word groomed. I know that's a bad form in these times. If this post needs to be erased I understand.
I think it'd be obvious that you'd give it to Varitek if you fire Cora mid-season, and then reevaluate in the off-season. Everyone has been saying Tek would be a manager someday practically since he arrived in the Seattle trade.
I think they only make a managerial change if ownership expected a better team and Bloom needs a scapegoat. No indication that is the case, as far as I can tell.
I agree with all of this. If they didn't expect better, Cora shouldn't be fired. If he is, I think 'tek is the right move.Varitek seems to be being groomed for the role as Red Sox manager. I think he would take over if Cora is fired before the end of the season. In that case, upper management could get a look at Jason and how he operates during this lost season and whether a search should be conducted during the off-season for a permanent solution.
Edit: I'm sorry for using the word groomed. I know that's a bad form in these times. If this post needs to be erased I understand.
Alex Cora's awfulness was already baked into the expectations.I have to giggle at the notion that this is a "lost season" and for that Cora has to go. All pre-season predictions and projections had this team anywhere from 77 to 85 wins. They're 40-40. Seems like they're right on target with those projections. Surely a shake up at the manager's spot will squeeze extra wins out of this squad.
I don't think they bring in interims specifically to evaluate their long term prospects, but there certainly have been cases in which interim managers perform well enough to become the long term guy. Most recent example is Rob Thomson in Philly. He was named the interim manager when they fired Girardi last year, led them to the World Series, and got himself a multi-year deal in the process.Not as to Varitek specifically, but do teams do that -- bring in an interim who they think has potential to be "the guy" long-term to "see how he operates?" I hope it would take something really extreme to change their view on whether they think he's the guy. If they think that, they should give him the job in the winter, not in the midst of what they'd be admitting is a lost season.
How's that working out for them?! (kidding).I don't think they bring in interims specifically to evaluate their long term prospects, but there certainly have been cases in which interim managers perform well enough to become the long term guy. Most recent example is Rob Thomson in Philly. He was named the interim manager when they fired Girardi last year, led them to the World Series, and got himself a multi-year deal in the process.
Sure, the no nothing pundits didn’t anticipate this team being good, but it’s not terribly relevant- what were the expectations among those who have the ability to fire the manager? Hard to know for sure, most of what is on record was fairly vague, likely intentionally, and of the “we will compete” vein. Which I think one can make an argument that the team is doing. Similar to last year, with the expanded playoffs, they are likely to be within a handful of games of a playoff spot unless they really fall apart.I have to giggle at the notion that this is a "lost season" and for that Cora has to go. All pre-season predictions and projections had this team anywhere from 77 to 85 wins. They're 40-40. Seems like they're right on target with those projections. Surely a shake up at the manager's spot will squeeze extra wins out of this squad.
I think there's a checklist that needs to be followed when firing a manager mid-season, IMO there needs to be more evidence to uproot the team mid-season than simply waiting for the offseason to evaluate:
1) Team is terrible/underperforming.
2) Manager is making moves antithetical to the analytics, managing by "feel".
(Note: During the long regular season, when trends tend to play themselves out. In the playoffs, managing by feel can be a great asset.)
3) Front office & ownership are unhappy over performance on top of the results.
4) Players are sniping and the clubhouse is openly revolting.
For Cora:
1) I'd argue this team is not underperforming significantly compared to where I expected them to be based on the roster.
2) If anything, he seems to be sticking to the script more than in his first year or two on the job. Cora is actually using "Openers" which I have no doubt he previously scoffed at off the record as a broke team's (Rays) invention. His bullpen usage is questionable at times, but garbage in/garbage out. He is using the guys that Bloom gives him. And Brasier was left with Cora far too long, "Full Tilt" was his most unhealthy obsession.
3) See above, that he is managing the team much to the front office's satisfaction. The process is being followed, so the F.O. cannot be too mad at the results.
4) I have not closely followed the team outside of games this season, but have not seen any catchy headlines that made me think there is clubhouse dissension. (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.)
We aren't seeing what's happening behind the scenes, but a mid-season change would just be "shaking it up" with no obvious upside because there is nothing particularly egregious that I see in Cora's performance. But YMMV
Tek would be a good choice as interim coach. Personally, I'm fine with the use of "groomed" in this context. It communicates exactly what you want it to, right? That's what language is for!Varitek seems to be being groomed for the role as Red Sox manager. I think he would take over if Cora is fired before the end of the season. In that case, upper management could get a look at Jason and how he operates during this lost season and whether a search should be conducted during the off-season for a permanent solution.
Edit: I'm sorry for using the word groomed. I know that's a bad form in these times. If this post needs to be erased I understand.
Unfortunately, we can't compare Boston's record with Cora with that of a "replacement level" manager. I suppose one could try to construct a computer program that could run simulations with a coach using analytics to make decisions. Run the thing a thousand times or so to get an "expected" record, then compare it to Cora's team. I wouldn't put any weight on it, though, because the game isn't played on paper (or a computer).Sure, the no nothing pundits didn’t anticipate this team being good, but it’s not terribly relevant- what were the expectations among those who have the ability to fire the manager? Hard to know for sure, most of what is on record was fairly vague, likely intentionally, and of the “we will compete” vein. Which I think one can make an argument that the team is doing. Similar to last year, with the expanded playoffs, they are likely to be within a handful of games of a playoff spot unless they really fall apart.
Excellent post.I think there's a checklist that needs to be followed when firing a manager mid-season, IMO there needs to be more evidence to uproot the team mid-season than simply waiting for the offseason to evaluate:
1) Team is terrible/underperforming.
2) Manager is making moves antithetical to the analytics, managing by "feel".
(Note: During the long regular season, when trends tend to play themselves out. In the playoffs, managing by feel can be a great asset.)
3) Front office & ownership are unhappy over performance on top of the results.
4) Players are sniping and the clubhouse is openly revolting.
For Cora:
1) I'd argue this team is not underperforming significantly compared to where I expected them to be based on the roster.
2) If anything, he seems to be sticking to the script more than in his first year or two on the job. Cora is actually using "Openers" which I have no doubt he previously scoffed at off the record as a broke team's (Rays) invention. His bullpen usage is questionable at times, but garbage in/garbage out. He is using the guys that Bloom gives him. And Brasier was left with Cora far too long, "Full Tilt" was his most unhealthy obsession.
3) See above, that he is managing the team much to the front office's satisfaction. The process is being followed, so the F.O. cannot be too mad at the results.
4) I have not closely followed the team outside of games this season, but have not seen any catchy headlines that made me think there is clubhouse dissension. (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.)
We aren't seeing what's happening behind the scenes, but a mid-season change would just be "shaking it up" with no obvious upside because there is nothing particularly egregious that I see in Cora's performance. But YMMV
Hopefully the talking takes place during actual intruction/drills and is not a substitute for.I’m just struggling with the idea that talking with the players will help them improve the defense. Maybe I’m too old school, but don’t you learn by doing?
You take ground balls, practice your throws, fielding those throws, hitting the cut off man, the double play turn, you practice all of those little things so that when you’re in the game you can do it through muscle memory.
What good does talking about it do?
FWIW, I've seen tweets from beat guys a few times recently noting that the Sox were doing defensive drills during their pre-game activities. See below a PeteAbe tweet from the Chicago series.Hopefully the talking takes place during actual intruction/drills and is not a substitute for.
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Things like coaching are likely more of a fuzzy org. thing, with 60-70% landing on Cora and 30-40% landing on Bloom. Cora appears to have final say on coaches and drills, but Bloom certainly has some kind of input into where the focus should be.The best way for the Sox to improve their defense and overall baseball IQ… is to play guys who are good at defense and have above average baseball IQ. We don’t have enough of either of those guys. That’s on the front office, not Cora.
Not that younger major leaguers can’t improve. But aside from those guys, the cake is baked. The team has been generally poor at fundamentals for a few years now, because that’s the way the team was constructed.
I don't think they've been unfortunate, they just haven't particularly valued defense when putting together the roster. They'd rather have Kike and his versatility and Yoshida and his bat and Casas and his offensive upside. Schwaber, Duvall, Hamilton, Cordero, Hosmer... It seems like this has been happening long enough to be a real trend, not just noise. Maybe I'm overlooking somebody, but the only major plus defender they've brought in during recent years is Story.*Things like coaching are likely more of a fuzzy org. thing, with 60-70% landing on Cora and 30-40% landing on Bloom. Cora appears to have final say on coaches and drills, but Bloom certainly has some kind of input into where the focus should be.
In terms of effectiveness of coaching, there's certainly a physical aging curve in play for things like defensive range in the OF, but I am unconvinced that mid-career players cannot improve - offensively or defensively. Xander, for example, took a defensive step forward at SS at age 29, which he attributed to better coaching and preparedness, rather than say, eye surgery or something. I'll grant you that some individuals can't or won't, but it's a bit silly to suggest that the Sox have simply been supremely unfortunate in their acquisitions.
Is this by design or just the way it worked out? I don't think it's that they don't care about defense. Rather, they have a set of parameters they are working with -- spend close to the tax, careful with long term commitments, don't trade away prospects. Given the number of holes they had to fill, getting players who were plus in every facet of the game, at every roster spot, wasn't on the table. They signed Yoshida because they liked the value he bought to the team -- it just happened that said value is concentrated on defense. But given your examples of Story and Kike, I see no reason to think that in the future, they won't continue to being in guys with high defensive value. Their drafts the past few years have been very heavy with up-the-middle players.I don't think they've been unfortunate, they just haven't particularly valued defense when putting together the roster. They'd rather have Kike and his versatility and Yoshida and his bat and Casas and his offensive upside. It seems like this has been happening long enough to be a real trend, not just noise. Maybe I'm overlooking somebody, but the only major plus defender they've brought in during recent years is Story.*
* I guess Kike the centerfielder would count too, but they seem determined to minimize that sometimes.
Sample size is pretty low there. Obviously they got Yoshida for his bat, but there was nothing in Kiké's prior history to suggest he'd become incapable of routine throws at SS this year. They did also acquire good D in Chang and Reyes before they both went down.I don't think they've been unfortunate, they just haven't particularly valued defense when putting together the roster. They'd rather have Kike and his versatility and Yoshida and his bat and Casas and his offensive upside. It seems like this has been happening long enough to be a real trend, not just noise. Maybe I'm overlooking somebody, but the only major plus defender they've brought in during recent years is Story.*
* I guess Kike the centerfielder would count too, but they seem determined to minimize that sometimes.
Hosmer has 4 gold gloves on his resume. Granted, they were a few years ago and gold gloves aren't exactly the end-all of defensive prowess, but he at least has a reputation as a competent if not above average fielder at his position. He didn't stick because his bat plus defense didn't equate to Casas' bat plus defense.I don't think they've been unfortunate, they just haven't particularly valued defense when putting together the roster. They'd rather have Kike and his versatility and Yoshida and his bat and Casas and his offensive upside. Schwaber, Duvall, Hamilton, Cordero, Hosmer... It seems like this has been happening long enough to be a real trend, not just noise. Maybe I'm overlooking somebody, but the only major plus defender they've brought in during recent years is Story.*
* I guess Kike the centerfielder would count too, but they seem determined to minimize that sometimes.
That sounds like more of a Chaim issue.Aside from defense, I think this team has played with a frustratingly low baseball IQ for several seasons now. Even in 2021 I recall a lot of people here bemoaning how dumb they’d play at times.
If people think that’s largely on Cora that’s fine. I don’t. I think we have simply employed, for various reasons, a lot of ball players who play kinda dumb.
Bloom knew the shift ban was coming and still made Kike Hernandez his shortstop. He put a player in center field in Duvall who is a very poor CFer. Yoshida is a below average defender. He relied on an oft-injured utility player in Arroyo to man 2nd base. Valdez was absolutely brutal in his place. Casas is clearly not ready to play quality defense. The only above average defensive players on the field are Verdugo and Wong. He knowingly put a team on the field that had defensive issues all over. There's no excuses for how bad they are.Hosmer has 4 gold gloves on his resume. Granted, they were a few years ago and gold gloves aren't exactly the end-all of defensive prowess, but he at least has a reputation as a competent if not above average fielder at his position. He didn't stick because his bat plus defense didn't equate to Casas' bat plus defense.
Chang has a strong defensive rep. He got hurt. JBJ was re-acquired and he remained a strong defender. He just couldn't hit (away from Fenway in particular) enough to justify keeping him in the lineup. It hasn't all been hit-no-field guys.
I do think moondog hits it on the head...limited budget, limited supply. Can't acquire plus defenders for every position while still trying to field a lineup with some plus hitters in it. I'd also suggest that at least some of this can be laid at the feet of the shift ban as well. Especially with players acquired before the ban went into effect (so most of the guys you cite on your list). It's possible they overlooked defensive weaknesses when acquiring players because they could be covered by defensive alignments. That's less of an option now.
No doubt -- he's the guy getting the players. (I doubt Cora puts Hernandez at SS if he thought he'd be *that* bad. In fact, he puled him from short two weeks into the season). Whether Bloom generally thinks that Bball IQ is overrated (or at least takes a back seat to other things) or whether this is just the price he's paying in this "trying to compete without tanking while also rebuilding" period is hard to tell.That sounds like more of a Chaim issue.
Yeah, I’m thinking Chaim knew exactly what he had this year but couldn’t really do much about it while maintaining the integrity of the rebuilding process while getting as much offense as he could. But I certainly expect improvements next year on this front.No doubt -- he's the guy getting the players. (I doubt Cora puts Hernandez at SS if he thought he'd be *that* bad. In fact, he puled him from short two weeks into the season). Whether Bloom generally thinks that Bball IQ is overrated (or at least takes a back seat to other things) or whether this is just the price he's paying in this "trying to compete without tanking while also rebuilding" period is hard to tell.
Duval had not been a poor OF (or a poor CF, in limited time). Hernandez, in limited time had not been a poor SS; he'd been quite good elsewhere in the field. At least good enough on paper to play half a season there. Or less if Mondesi had responded like many players to the surgery he had. And the manager removed him after 2 weeks; and Story got hurt; and Chang got hurt; and Reyes got hurt.Bloom knew the shift ban was coming and still made Kike Hernandez his shortstop. He put a player in center field in Duvall who is a very poor CFer. Yoshida is a below average defender.
While I am not a big Cora fan, I largely agree with this. If you prioritize the acquisition of players that can hit the ball 450ft but strike out 40% of the time and don't have a position they can play reliably then what is any manager supposed to do? I think this was a general tendency across baseball as the result of the extreme shifts, with the thought being we can hide players on defense by shifting and lets get players that can hit 'over' the shift of the opposing teams. I expect this will change going forward and baseball will begin to value more skill sets than just power. Hopefully, Bloom is leading the way soonAside from defense, I think this team has played with a frustratingly low baseball IQ for several seasons now. Even in 2021 I recall a lot of people here bemoaning how dumb they’d play at times.
If people think that’s largely on Cora that’s fine. I don’t. I think we have simply employed, for various reasons, a lot of ball players who play kinda dumb.
Verdugo was not at all an above average RF until this season. He was a shitty LF last year. In just over 1000 innings over his career in right field prior to this season, he had a -2 DRS and a -6.2 UZR. Thanks to a +7 DRS and a +5.6 UZR so far this year, his overall numbers are trending to neutral/average territory. All of which suggests that players can improve with a little effort and concentration.Bloom knew the shift ban was coming and still made Kike Hernandez his shortstop. He put a player in center field in Duvall who is a very poor CFer. Yoshida is a below average defender. He relied on an oft-injured utility player in Arroyo to man 2nd base. Valdez was absolutely brutal in his place. Casas is clearly not ready to play quality defense. The only above average defensive players on the field are Verdugo and Wong. He knowingly put a team on the field that had defensive issues all over. There's no excuses for how bad they are.
That's the problem here though. The players here were all complete question marks whether health related or defensive prowess. Duvall is a corner outfielder playing out of position in center. Acquiring an oft-injured in Mondesi who on top of the ACL injury had trouble staying on the field in prior years. They knew Story had issues with his elbow to the point that he had to play 2nd base so when asked to play SS he immediately gets hurt again trying to get his arm ready. These issues should not have been a surprise to anyone.Duval had not been a poor OF (or a poor CF, in limited time). Hernandez, in limited time had not been a poor SS; he'd been quite good elsewhere in the field. At least good enough on paper to play half a season there. Or less if Mondesi had responded like many players to the surgery he had. And the manager removed him after 2 weeks; and Story got hurt; and Chang got hurt; and Reyes got hurt.
I haven't seen sources implying this is how things went; do you have one or is this supposition?They knew Story had issues with his elbow to the point that he had to play 2nd base so when asked to play SS he immediately gets hurt again trying to get his arm ready.