Here you go.Don’t you still need your elbow to hit and throw?
what has history shown us with hitters getting TJS? (I don’t know, just asking)
Any loss of production? Any increased risk from RE-injury while throwing to a base?
Here you go.Don’t you still need your elbow to hit and throw?
what has history shown us with hitters getting TJS? (I don’t know, just asking)
Any loss of production? Any increased risk from RE-injury while throwing to a base?
I would think the bigger issue is that a player that you have spent a good chunk of your budget on isn't available to help your team.TJ surgery has become so routine, even 2nd attempts at it. I have no clue about what percentage of these athletes don't come back to their previous form.
As for references to the Carlos Correa contracts offered by the Giants and then the Mets, I believe that the excuse of the physical is just code for the fact that the teams were unable to get the contracts insured. Teams might not care about physical risks if they can get those risks insured.
Ohtani's already had TJS once and his hitting doesn't seem to have suffered. Bryce Harper is doing okay following his TJS last winter. Christian Vazquez has played most of his MLB career post-TJS. That's just a few examples. I think for the most part, players come back from it without restrictions. I think the re-injury factor is probably less for position players than pitchers but probably not insignificant.Don’t you still need your elbow to hit and throw?
what has history shown us with hitters getting TJS? (I don’t know, just asking)
Any loss of production? Any increased risk from RE-injury while throwing to a base?
Harper, Seager, and Perez are probably the biggest names in recent years. Seager went back to SS. Perez hit 48 HR in his first full season afterward. Harper's HR numbers are down this year but he's still good (though now mostly a DH with an occassional game at 1B). I don't think TJS is as worrisome for position players as pitchers and even pitchers tend to come back well from it these days. But Ohtani is doing double duty out there.Don’t you still need your elbow to hit and throw?
what has history shown us with hitters getting TJS? (I don’t know, just asking)
Any loss of production? Any increased risk from RE-injury while throwing to a base?
Edit: Never mind, beaten to it multiple times.Don’t you still need your elbow to hit and throw?
what has history shown us with hitters getting TJS? (I don’t know, just asking)
Any loss of production? Any increased risk from RE-injury while throwing to a base?
Say, 10/400M plus a million dollars per start? I know MLB contracts can't be structured like that, and for good reason, but that's the kind of value teams might assign to him?My guess is it still gets up to close to $400M in line with the Judge contract. He is the AL MVP right now with an insane 183 OPS+ without even factoring in the pitching.
You have to wonder if letting continue this 2-way model will be a differentiating factor in his decision. If a team is willing to take on that risk, and probably pay him a little more to reflect the value, is he more likely to sign? Or, is this mostly just another geography play for him. Nobody really knows and he might not even know at this point. First data point will be whether or not he shuts it down in 2023 or tries to continue. Sure he's getting all sorts of doctor opinions today. Not sure if he'll join the team in NY or not.Say, 10/400M plus a million dollars per start? I know MLB contracts can't be structured like that, and for good reason, but that's the kind of value teams might assign to him?
He wants to win. The Angels aren't close to winning. Even with a healthy Mike Trout.Still 400M+ I’m sure, I wouldn’t be too worried about the hitting. Though the feasibility of a dominant starter long term in question.
The timing actually works out well for the Angels, his price tag just went down 30% overnight and the demand for the 2 way unicorn takes a big hit. Maybe the “tear” isn’t even that bad, more low grade sprain/partial tear with inflammation. Who knows.
Entire story a bit odd as it was labeled arm fatigue not elbow or forearm pain. A conspiracy theorist might even think this new abrupt diagnosis when the Angels are clearly out of the race was timed quite well for Arte Moreno.
Player’s failing physicals that end up nixing trades and FA signings occur often enough (not sure how to phrase the frequency). Has a trade ever been revoked at or near the deadline due to the medicals on a contract rental (excluding any trade that included an extension window)?They really wouldn't have had anything to lose by trying it though... maybe some bad PR if a trade blew up over it, but they got bad PR for not trying it anyway. There's also less scrutiny over worrisome medicals for a 2-3 month rental.
I wonder if he can really be an effective reliever (closer or not) while being an everyday DH as well. I think the routine of being a starter was an important part of how he was able to be successful as a two-way player. If he's relieving, he needs to be prepared to pitch more or less every day. That might be a bit harder than only having to concentrate on being ready to pitch once a week.Would he still have insane value and be “safer” as a closer or twice a week high-leverage bullpen ace?
If he's just a hitter but still a good one he opts out and you just paid $100m for 1 hopefully healthy yearWhat about this as an offer to Ohtani this offseason?
2/$50m, with a club option for 10/$400, a player option for 8/$250, or a $50m buyout. Then you tell him to get surgery on the UCL. So we're paying him handsomely ($100m) to rehab, presumably returning in some role at some , and then we see if he's still a two-way player or just a high-end corner outfielder/middle-of-the-order bat.
So it's either 12/$450 or 10/$300, all told. It's like 85% of Judge's contract if he's just a hitter, or that plus Rodón's deal if he can still pitch. Is that viable?
He'll likely have had the surgery before free agency begins, probably as soon as the season ends if not sooner (depending on the second opinions).What about this as an offer to Ohtani this offseason?
2/$50m, with a club option for 10/$400, a player option for 8/$250, or a $50m buyout. Then you tell him to get surgery on the UCL. So we're paying him handsomely ($100m) to rehab, presumably returning in some role at some , and then we see if he's still a two-way player or just a high-end corner outfielder/middle-of-the-order bat.
So it's either 12/$450 or 10/$300, all told. It's like 85% of Judge's contract if he's just a hitter, or that plus Rodón's deal if he can still pitch. Is that viable?
If he's just a hitter, he's probably not beating 8/$250 after his age-30 season.If he's just a hitter but still a good one he opts out and you just paid $100m for 1 hopefully healthy year
He doesn't have to beat 8-250, he has to beat 8-200. That's only 25m a year for one of the better hitters in the league.If he's just a hitter, he's probably not beating 8/$250 after his age-30 season.
But maybe the buyout is a bad idea.
Ohtani is more than just “one of the better hitters in the league”. He’s right there at the top with a few others.He doesn't have to beat 8-250, he has to beat 8-200. That's only 25m a year for one of the better hitters in the league.
Obviously right now he is, but that hypothetical is about what he's likely to be for the next 8 seasons starting in 2 years after a significant injury and rehab.Ohtani is more than just “one of the better hitters in the league”. He’s right there at the top with a few others.
Given the contracts from last season I’d be shocked if he didn’t get 300-400M even if he could never pitch again.
As a non pitcher, he also doesn’t have to be strictly a DH. He’s athletic and could play the field for a good chunk of a long term contract.
Not saying it's not possible, but he hasn't actually played almost any OF since 2013 and 2014 in Japan. He has played a total of 8.1 innings there for the Angels.As a non pitcher, he also doesn’t have to be strictly a DH. He’s athletic and could play the field for a good chunk of a long term contract.
I would have never guessed that he had played that few innings in the field for the Angels.Not saying it's not possible, but he hasn't actually played almost any OF since 2013 and 2014 in Japan. He has played a total of 8.1 innings there for the Angels.
Not that I expect Ohtani to re-sign with the Angels, but with the injuries piling up, Trout might need to be the Angels DH in the not too distant future.He wants to win. The Angels aren't close to winning. Even with a healthy Mike Trout.
Closer might work, but any other bullpen position is tough unless they change the rules. I believe that if he came into the game as a reliever, while also the DH, the Angels would lose the DH once they replace him as pitcher and he'd have to play in the field if he wanted to continue hitting. I'm not 100 percent sure of this, but my understanding of the Shohei Ohtani rule is that a pitcher must start the game as both the P and DH in order not to lose the DH. I guess they changed the rule once for him, and so they could again, but the way the rules work right now, pitching him risks losing him as a hitter if the game goes on for any significant length of time after you remove him from the game.Would he still have insane value and be “safer” as a closer or twice a week high-leverage bullpen ace?
Both Fangraphs and Statcast have him in his best defensive season since 2018 this year. We don't appear to be there yet.Not that I expect Ohtani to re-sign with the Angels, but with the injuries piling up, Trout might need to be the Angels DH in the not too distant future.
Not from a performance standpoint but more "he's got 7 more years left on the deal and might not make it if he continues to get hurt".Both Fangraphs and Statcast have him in his best defensive season since 2018 this year. We don't appear to be there yet.
I tore my UCL in 1992. Aside from the initial pain of the injury it only hurt when trying to throw. There was no pain whilst swinging. But that’s just my experience.Does this injury hurt or is it more discomfort that is worrying?
like ACL I’ve heard is wildly painful. Is this similar?
Pretty sure it affected your ability to play Destiny, too.I tore my UCL in 1992. Aside from the initial pain of the injury it only hurt when trying to throw. There was no pain whilst swinging. But that’s just my experience.
ouch. You still work here?Pretty sure it affected your ability to play Destiny, too.
Just been waiting for you, sweetheart.ouch. You still work here?
The irony being that all of his significant injuries have occurred while he was a batter or a baserunner, not in the outfield.Not from a performance standpoint but more "he's got 7 more years left on the deal and might not make it if he continues to get hurt".
Do DH’s count a position players as it applies to the new rule limiting the situations that position players can pitch?I wonder if he can really be an effective reliever (closer or not) while being an everyday DH as well. I think the routine of being a starter was an important part of how he was able to be successful as a two-way player. If he's relieving, he needs to be prepared to pitch more or less every day. That might be a bit harder than only having to concentrate on being ready to pitch once a week.
Let's assume he's the closer. What happens if he's due up third in the bottom of the eighth and his team has a one-run lead? Do they pinch hit for him so he can warm up? Does he warm up until he's needed on deck? What happens if he's not fully warmed/ready and then he gets on base and stays there until the inning ends? Would MLB invent another rule just for him that allows extra warmups?
Good question. Before the game, everyone needs to be designated on the lineup card as a position player, a pitcher, or a Shohei Ohtani (aka "Two-way player).Do DH’s count a position players as it applies to the new rule limiting the situations that position players can pitch?
It's likely one of those situations where he can't do any more damage. Whether the ligament is torn 50% or 100%, it's getting surgically replaced after the season so as long as he's not in pain he can keep playing. He wouldn't be the first to keep hitting through a UCL tear. It isn't even his first time doing it.So Ohtani, still in there at DH, hit a 2B that was apparently his 8th hardest hit ball of the season. Is this sustainable? Swinging a bat can’t be good for him, right?
Definitely not assured. Before the injury, he was probably going to be paid 60/40 or 70/30 leaning more towards hitter anyway.Apparently, the outcome after revision TJ surgery in not as slam dunk at some people on the board make it out to be. There's a relatively high risk of never being able to pitch on a ML level again. So any team paying him big time guarantees before the surgery and the rehab is just betting even or odd on a roulette wheel.
https://theathletic.com/4805018/2023/08/25/shohei-ohtani-tommy-john-two-times/
Always chuckle when the decision to get an MRI or not is made between a GM and an agent.
I think that message was for other FAs so that people don’t think they’re being negligent.Feels like the Angels are burning a bridge unnecessarily with that disclosure. Just say nothing.
Balelo acknowledged that Ohtani, who will soon be one of the most prominent free agents in baseball history, will eventually undergo "some type of procedure," a list of options that would seemingly include Tommy John surgery -- the standard UCL replacement that would keep him off a mound through the 2024 season -- or a noninvasive treatment that utilizes stem cells and platelet-rich plasma (PRP) in an effort to strengthen the ligament. A relatively new, less-invasive bracing procedure also has been popularized in recent years, though it is unclear whether Ohtani is a candidate for that.
Can he potentially pitch next year then?Waiting until then kept Ohtani from serving as a designated hitter until May of the following season. But Balelo expressed confidence that won't be the case this time around, adding that the most recent tear is on the lowest extremity of his right UCL, closest to the ulna and radius bones, whereas the tear five years ago was at the highest extremity, attached to the humerus.
"It's completely different," Balelo said, adding that the graft from Ohtani's initial surgery is "all together, all intact, no problems. Everything looks good."
Balelo said doctors told him the current tear is "the best-case scenario for the situation we're in," though he didn't provide any indication on a course of action or a return to pitching.
This reads entirely like an agent trying to inflate/salvage his client's free agent market. It's in his (the agent's) best interest for Ohtani to be able to pitch in 2024, or at least appear to have the chance to do so. Ohtani sought second opinions after the initial diagnosis for exactly this purpose. I'm no doctor, but I wouldn't sign Ohtani this winter with any expectation that he will pitch in 2024. 2025 and beyond, sure, but not in 2024.https://global.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38330117/agent-shohei-ohtani-plans-continue-two-way-player
Can he potentially pitch next year then?