Pats haven’t scored 30 this yearIt really is remarkable isn’t it?
Jets did it once but needed a defensive TD
Pats haven’t scored 30 this yearIt really is remarkable isn’t it?
Did you really need to come in here and brag...lol.Pats haven’t scored 30 this year
Jets did it once but needed a defensive TD
This might be the most nonsensical post of the last 3 months.The team lost 6-0 and you've got people PROUD about this defense. I'm convinced more than ever that Instaface and Kenny P would rather jerk off to this defense for the next 3 years than win football games.
It’s almost like a political discussion. The Pats defense is objectively good but we can’t admit that because it hurts the other narratives. The defense is also why I struggle with the Belichick discussion. I want someone else building the next offense but I don’t want to lose his defensive chops.This might be the most nonsensical post of the last 3 months.
The defense is great. Do you not agree? And who is jerking off? People are trying to assess 2023 and 2024. Heavens to Betsy, why would anyone want to do that?
I would rather see the Pats win consistently and give up 90 points per game than lose consistently and give up only 10 points per game. I can't speak for others, but for myself the defense is not the issue - the issue is with everything else so awful (offense, special teams, mental mistakes, drafting, FA signings, etc) that it does not matter how elite this defense is, they are still losing. We are 12 games into the season, the combo has not been working. It hasn't really been working since Brady left. Teams like the 49ers, Eagles, Chjefs, Dolphins, etc. are winning with elite offenses and varying degrees of defense. As a fan, I am at the point would be willing to lose whatever magic BB brought to the defensive side of the ball if it meant that the rest of the team could possibly stop being a dumpster fire. Moreover, if this team is so stacked with premium defensive talent as other posters have stated (personally - I think there are some nice pieces who work well together, but not a lot of players who would be starting for better teams), I can't imagine the next coach would cause them all to nosedive that hard.It’s almost like a political discussion. The Pats defense is objectively good but we can’t admit that because it hurts the other narratives. The defense is also why I struggle with the Belichick discussion. I want someone else building the next offense but I don’t want to lose his defensive chops.
In order to be effective I think those changes would have to come from Bill. If they are imposed from above, I don't think it'll go very well. (BOB was rumored to be a Kraft decision and that has failed miserably.) He'd have to do a pretty rigorous self assessment and determine a redefined role and some new blood was necessary.I want BB to still be the HC but I want (a) a bigger coaching staff and (b) a LOT more help with the GM duties.
The flip side is the defense is put in worse situations because of a bad offense. Lots of turnovers, lot's of time on the field. The Patriots opponents average starting field position is the NE 29, which is 6th best in football.Isn’t it possible the defense is looking a lot better than it is because everyone knows the offense is so bad? There’s very little incentive to take any kind of chances when you know the other team basically can’t score 20 points. Teams can play a safer game and play field position if a drive stalls out knowing they’ll probably have it back soon enough. I know they are turning other teams over less this season.
Yes, that's possible.Isn’t it possible the defense is looking a lot better than it is because everyone knows the offense is so bad? There’s very little incentive to take any kind of chances when you know the other team basically can’t score 20 points. Teams can play a safer game and play field position if a drive stalls out knowing they’ll probably have it back soon enough. I know they are turning other teams over less this season.
But it is uniquely bad. If they had an injury at QB and sucked, that’s understandable. If they were playing a lot of rookies, that’s understandable. Those are the two big reasons why teams usually suck so bad on offense. To have your plan A go this bad - something entirely expected by a number of people on this board - typically only happens when it’s 2022 Broncos level dysfunction.
This is the core issue for me.I mean... you listed multiple teams that suck (Giants, STeelers, Raiders... you actually forgot the Titans) who are or were similarly terrible on offense with their plan A. If multiple teams in a year do a thing it is definitionally not unique. I also think only talking about QB injuries undervalues what is often the big reason a plan A goes sideways... line injuries. And the Patriots line was decimated early, bad lines hurt your QB play, and often lead to QB injuries.
Listen the Patriots offense is terrible, there is no denying that. I just think it's important to look at why it is terrible and how that fits into how other teams are similarly terrible this and in past years, and how they fix it. Reaching for how "no this offense isn't like other teams" for some undefined point is without value, because it means we have left a reality based evaluation of the problem and entered the "I FEEL like it is different and therefore..." realm.
Yeah, that really wasn't a detailed breakdown and there were several inconsistencies to fit the point he was making.What’s the detailed breakdown? Some ages? Judon is going to be 32. Might start to slip and already has faded down the stretch in previous years here. Gonzalez looked great but provided only a small sample before getting hurt. I’m optimistic though. Mapu can’t get off the bench and White’s name is barely ever called for making plays outside of preseason. Jonathan Jones is a fine slot corner. Marcus Jones isn’t going to be a superstar but he seems like a good piece. And Peppers who’s also not young in NFL terms. I’m not calling KFP a liar or crazy or anything I just think we need to pump the brakes a bit on this “young elite defense locked up for years” that’s all.
I mean, he’s not 2007 SJH anymore, but he deserves to come back next year. Short leash though.This guy gets it.
Just trying to end my posting career on a high note.I mean, he’s not 2007 SJH anymore, but he deserves to come back next year. Short leash though.
I thought this too, but as it turns out, the lead back IS the safety valve. Rham has the most catches on the entire team, with *gulp* 38 on the season. Behind him are Bourne (37) and Pop (36), so we'll go into Thursday's game without any of the top 3 receivers on the season active. Ty Montgomery was supposed to be that guy, but after being out all last year, he's apparently just an ST guy now, with just 4 catches and 3 rushes all year. I assume he'll play more offense next game, but really, who the hell knows anymore?Watching some other teams around the league, the change in scheme for the Pats I'd like to see is to get a James White-type of pass catching running back on the field again. I think part of the issue for the QBs has been that there has seldom been a safety valve dump off available to them. I know Zeke is kinda supposed to be that guy but he's not been used that way (they use him as a bruiser instead).
With 35,207 posts I think if you can hang on for a couple more years you can break Shula's record.Just trying to end my posting career on a high note.
Ever since White got hurt / retired I’ve been wondering why they’ve ignored the position. After slot receiver it was the most important skill position of the dynasty. Unfathomable.Watching some other teams around the league, the change in scheme for the Pats I'd like to see is to get a James White-type of pass catching running back on the field again. I think part of the issue for the QBs has been that there has seldom been a safety valve dump off available to them. I know Zeke is kinda supposed to be that guy but he's not been used that way (they use him as a bruiser instead).
Maybe, but for years the defensive points against were skewed down because teams were chasing TDs and eschewing FGs. So it clearly cuts both ways. Maybe it helps in yards. But not in points. The other factor that “helps” in yards is that opposing offenses have shorter fields to drive.The conditions played a role, but I think where a bad offense can "help" the defense is on 4th down decisions. Staley punted on 4th and 9 from the NE 38, 4th and 12 from the NE 36, and 4th and 3 from the NE 45.
Facing a better offense they may have been more inclined to go for 1 or 2 of those.
Agreed, that is one part of the problem on offense... although I can't help but wonder: doesn't this seem like an odd oversight for the 2023 team?Watching some other teams around the league, the change in scheme for the Pats I'd like to see is to get a James White-type of pass catching running back on the field again. I think part of the issue for the QBs has been that there has seldom been a safety valve dump off available to them. I know Zeke is kinda supposed to be that guy but he's not been used that way (they use him as a bruiser instead).
Who knows! That is my point. Given that the rest of the WR corps is... less than thrilling, why not play Boutte (considered a first day selection at one point in college) and see if he is any good. The first thing I think about Boutte this year is that his foot was just out of bounds on a fourth down play and some people considered that a mortal sin. Maybe it is. But they are still trotting out Parker (not going to be here long term), JJSS (bad), Reagor (as far as I can tell, a warm body to get the offense up to 11 players) and Thornton (also bad). Maybe his practices are horrific to the point of being unplayable but not bad enough to cut him. Only BB knows. Maybe his practices are average and everyone else is too so BB just kind puts whoever he feels like out there.Are we sure Boutte is being punished rather than just not showing anything in practice?
Boutte is hurt. He was a DNP at practice last week and DNP yesterday with a shoulder injury.Who knows! That is my point. Given that the rest of the WR corps is... less than thrilling, why not play Boutte (considered a first day selection at one point in college) and see if he is any good. The first thing I think about Boutte this year is that his foot was just out of bounds on a fourth down play and some people considered that a mortal sin. Maybe it is. But they are still trotting out Parker (not going to be here long term), JJSS (bad), Reagor (as far as I can tell, a warm body to get the offense up to 11 players) and Thornton (also bad). Maybe his practices are horrific to the point of being unplayable but not bad enough to cut him. Only BB knows. Maybe his practices are average and everyone else is too so BB just kind puts whoever he feels like out there.
GTFO out of here with that facts stuff. It doesn't fit the narrative.Boutte is hurt. He was a DNP at practice last week and DNP yesterday with a shoulder injury.
Not you in particular AZ. The long-standing narrative on the radio in Boston is that anyone who isn't seeing the field was benched by an out-of-touch Belichick. I got a kick out of it because somewhere someone is speculating that Boutte made some trivial faux pas and got sent to football Siberia for it, when in reality he's just hurt.@Jimbodandy - Not sure if that's aimed at me, but here is Boutte on the year:
9/10 - 0 Rec on 4 targets
11/12 - 1 rec on 1 target for 11 yds
11/26 - 1 rec on 2 targets for 8 yds
He was hurt last week and now he is out for practice. I have no idea what to make of his playing time this year, excluding last week.
I think the only reasonable conclusion is that he's not good, or at least hasn't practiced well.@Jimbodandy - Not sure if that's aimed at me, but here is Boutte on the year:
9/10 - 0 Rec on 4 targets
11/12 - 1 rec on 1 target for 11 yds
11/26 - 1 rec on 2 targets for 8 yds
He was hurt last week and now he is out for practice. I have no idea what to make of his playing time this year, excluding last week.
He's a 21yo rookie. For now, BB is getting him medical help. Then BB likely has him on a strength and agility program and has positional and offensive coaches working on upskilling him. And if he gets to the point where they think that he deserves snaps above some other guy on the depth chart, he'll get them.I mean, that sort of proves my original point before people decided that the thrust of my argument was "Boutte has been punished this week" (something I never wrote). He is apparently too crappy to play, too good to outright cut, was talked up one week he didn't play, and didn't really see the field for months despite the wealth of talent ahead of him, then had 2 1-catch games for a total of 19 yards. What is BB doing with him?
the depth chart is:I think the only reasonable conclusion is that he's not good, or at least hasn't practiced well.
At full health, Boutte was essentially 6th on the WR depth chart:
Bourne
Parker
Smith-Schuster
Douglas
Thornton
Boutte
There's just not enough snaps for your 6th WR when everyone was healthy. He played week 1 when Parker was injured and Thornton on IR. Parker came back the next week, Boutte went out. From weeks 2-9 they had some injuries but it was never really enough to get him on the field. The semi-perplexing week was the Raiders game when Bill talked him up and then left him inactiver despite both Smith-Schuster and Douglas being inactive, but again, at best he was 4th on the depth chart that week.
As the injuries and losses piled up, he was given an opporunity and has since promptly gotten hurt himself.
I never said the players on the depth chart were good, I was just explaining why Boutte basically went 8 weeks without playing. They didn't think he was good enough to play. I really think it is as simple as that. There are only 2 or 3 WR's on the field on any given play and they didn't think he was one of their 2-3 best WR's. He's 4th, 5th, 6th on the WR depth chart.the depth chart is:
1- Bourne
2-Douglas
3- Henry
and that’s it. Parker is awful, Juju is a corpse out there, Thornton is a compete bust.
This is same is Zappe better than Mac? Probably not but all other options suck. Can Boutte be any worse than Thornton?
You know who has more receiving yards this year than anyone on the Patriots roster? Jonnu Smith and were worried about who the sixth guy is.
I get it but the answer is likely that he gets chances in practice and isn’t good enough, as unsatisfying as that is.That is all true regarding late round receivers, but I think the general sentiment is why not try Boutte and see what you have when the other receivers have all proven that they suck?
Because they generally haven't? Also he's hurt.That is all true regarding late round receivers, but I think the general sentiment is why not try Boutte and see what you have when the other receivers have all proven that they suck?
Because he's hurt. Looked like he was going to start getting some time but then got hurt.That is all true regarding late round receivers, but I think the general sentiment is why not try Boutte and see what you have when the other receivers have all proven that they suck?
Somewhat related to the Boutte conversation (though not b/c he's injured), I've been doing some dangerous thinking that I'm probably going to catch a lot of shit for but it's related to this. I don't even know how much I believe it, but it's just an interesting exercise to me.I get it but the answer is likely that he gets chances in practice and isn’t good enough, as unsatisfying as that is.
Yes, and Drew had just signed a massive contract, which likely tied BB's hands to some extent. I think it was only a matter of time.I thought it’d been pretty well documented BB had been leaning towards Brady since training camp that year.
Sure, but it was sold by ownership as THE BIGGEST CONTRACT IN NFL HISTORY so probably don't want to go into 2001 benching that guy after a 5-11 season.Drew's contract was essentially only 2/20, the rest of the 10/100 deal was a series of one year renewals that could easily be turned down without cap hits IIRC.
It's been well documented that Brady had outplayed Bledsoe in practice, and there has been a lot of informed speculation that Brady may have been named the starter midseason if Bledsoe continued to struggle in games.Somewhat related to the Boutte conversation (though not b/c he's injured), I've been doing some dangerous thinking that I'm probably going to catch a lot of shit for but it's related to this. I don't even know how much I believe it, but it's just an interesting exercise to me.
How close were we to never seeing Tom Brady start for the NEP? If Bledsoe gets out of bounds earlier, does he start for the rest of the season? Is there a world in which Tom Brady gets cut or just stays as a backup until Bledsoe retires?
Because there's an idea that, no matter who you are on the Patriots, you will start if you show yourself to be better than the other alternatives. So why didn't that happen to start the season in 2001? What was Tom not showing in practice that led them to have Drew as QB1? What bar would he have had to clear to beat out Bledsoe without getting game reps?
Then you start to wonder - how much can you demonstrate in practice, particularly as a QB when there's only one of you on the field at a time and the starter is getting most of the reps? Or as a WR deeper on the depth chart who might only be getting reps from the backup QBs?
How many times are players thrust into action because of injury and then they show themselves to be better than their counterparts? At QB alone, there are quite a few examples: Brady, Warner, Romo, Dak, Jalen Hurts, Purdy, and others. We assume that Belichick is some kind of genius when it comes to playing time, but he needed to be forced to play Brady in real games to see that he was a better option.
Point is that sometimes we default to this idea "He must not be good in practice" and that might be right and I think that makes sense when you're a contending team, but it feels less necessary when you suck and you'd benefit from knowing what you really have at the bottom of your roster. The larger problem is that we don't have a lot of upside talent to play at the bottom of the roster, but if, say, Boutte does get healthy, I don't see why we'd waste snaps on known quantities like Parker and JSS when we could see if a rookie sinks or swims given multiple chances.
Three high-ranking executives from rival teams who were polled by The Athletic believed the 71-year-old could be worth as much as a first-round draft pick. And for the Patriots, who are well on the way to securing their own top-five pick, such a return could do wonders to jump-start the franchise’s post-Belichick era.
“He (would) likely have multiple suitors,” a team executive said.
It’s no sure thing, however. Two executives were skeptical the Patriots could corral such a bounty for Belichick, with one outright dismissing the idea.
Some precedent trades:“It only takes one owner, so (the Patriots) should be able to trade him,” another executive said. “If any team is interested, I would think New England would get a first-round pick.”