This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots
- Thread starter DennyDoyle'sBoil
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Yeah, I kind of do. It sounds like to doesn't want to try to help his teammates. Not to mention how it might look to his next employer.
Fuck the fans and the media; if your skin is that thin, go sell cars.
Good for you, you mean
Aren’t Mills, Bryant, Dugger, and Uche all free agents?
Also not really sure the defense is young. Bryant is the only starter 25 or younger.
They are not as elite as you think they are. Football is a fluid dynamic between both sides, being historically bad on one side impacts the other. The next guy to walk into this position is indeed in a good spot. I've staked my opinion that it shouldn't be BB (is anyone unaware?).
My contention is that it's going to be easier to keep this defense intact and build a new offense from scratch/philosophy than it will be for BB to do this defensive thing and figure out how to create a modern NFL offense.
My one beef with the defense is they are generating no TOs. But this defense has to play a lot of snaps in less than advantageous circumstances because the offense turns over the ball and the Pats are 28th in time of possession on offense. The offense is so bad that its stink permeates the team.
What's fun about that movie is that they clearly worked with the NFL and people in football to get some of it right.
Oh no. Not Mills, Bryant, and Uche!
Someone just posted the Patriots have given up the least amount of points in the NFL the last 4 weeks. i've given my opinion on the defense plenty of times here. Theyre not historically elite, but they're missing their best front 7 player and best corner for the majority of the season. The defense is very good and almost entirely signed for next season.
I also think the defense is kind of overrated. They look great against the shit teams but when they face elite offenses they kinda get smoked.
Getting OT here but...
I get the future employer angle and competitiveness and all that. That said, the Jets didn't want him to start this year and made the Rodgers trade. Then he was forced in and blamed for everything. This including the coach "pleading the fifth" when asking why Wilson was still starter. There's been "team mutiny" stories from the lockeroom about his teamates unhappiness with his play. Then they benched him again for Boyle/Siemien. Now they want him back?
Is there anythign for Zach to gain by going back in and playing out the string? Is 5 good performances in playing-out-the-string games enough to erase the 32 games of suck he has put on tape? Seems like the most likely outcome is he continues to stink and is subject to more and more ridicule.
Just reeks of organizational dysfunction and I don't really blame him for telling Saleh to fuck off.
Dallas went bonkers with the help of their defense. Buffalo only scored 25. Philly scored 25. Miami scored an average of 27.5 vs NE but they average 33.2 per game for the year.
I feel crazy for thinking that this is a designed tank. Like...the D is awesome. The Offense isn't just bad...they're...impossibly bad. Even with Mac Jones leading it, it feels impossible.
They also have a bottom 3 worst starting field position on defense, as well as a bottom 5 offense in TOP. Theyre on the field A TON with a disadvantage in field position. They arent historically elite or anything, but theyre a very good, cheap, talented defense missing their best front 7 player and best secondary player.
Spot on. Every game they play with the pressure to essentially be perfect. And for the most part they hold up remarkably well. Defense isn’t the issue with this team at all.
I love Judon but keep in mind he'll be 32 before next season starts and coming back from injury. He might have something left in the tank but he almost assuredly will not be a part of the next Patriots team that contends for a Super Bowl.
If there is a benefit to the D, it is that maybe knowing that the Patriots can't score means a team goes run a bit more in tossup situations, and that plays to the Patriots who have the best run D in the league's strengths. But overall, I think it's clear that this is a very good D, not elite, but very good. When healthy (Judon and Gonzo) I think it was probably on track to be elite.
The D has been very good no argument here. As was noted upthread, they aren't all that young and do have some pending free agents that they will need to re-sign or replace. Not sure we can just run it back and assume the same success. That said the offense almost has to be better next year. It would almost be impossible for it to be worse.
He's a guy that I would look to trade in the offseason even for mid to late round picks.
It's really hard to figure out how they didn't score, or even attempt a field goal. They ran for nearly 150 yards. They only had one turnover -- no picks. 13 first downs, time of possession edge by a couple of minutes. Two drives over 40 yards, one of 39, and one over 50.
The answer is five sacks for 32 yards, I guess, and I think all or most were in pretty important spots, but still -- it's hard to put up a goose egg in the NFL and when you do it's usually because you played much much worse and turned it over repeatedly.
The answer is five sacks for 32 yards, I guess, and I think all or most were in pretty important spots, but still -- it's hard to put up a goose egg in the NFL and when you do it's usually because you played much much worse and turned it over repeatedly.
They started 4 or 5 drives from their 10 yard line or less. You can drive the ball 50 yards from there and still not be in Ryland's FG range, especially in the rainy conditions.
Field position. Their best field position yesterday was their own 25. In the 2nd half alone they started their drives at their own 18, 2, 20 and 13. Their drive lengths in yards was between 29 and 49 in the 2nd half but they basically could only get into fringe field goal range.
Bad field position as noted, but also.....
second drive... fumbled in FG range on 2nd down.
fifth drive... edge of FG range, took a delay penalty on 3rd to push them out.
eighth drive... back to back sacks in FG range to push them out
tenth drive... went for it on 4th and 5 over taking a 47 yard FG given time left.
On the 8th drive, I think it was 3rd and 2 and BoB called two straight passes. Just run the ball there twice.
Right -- I get that it's field position. Their punter was fantastic. I didn't make my point very clearly. The point was that they were moving the ball and they were running well, and by and large not turning it over.
It took a lot for them to never be able to quite put it together, despite not completely shitting the bed on offense.
It took a lot for them to never be able to quite put it together, despite not completely shitting the bed on offense.
yeah 3rd and 3. Though without seeing the tape no way to know what the look was and if it was a check. Of course that drive had Zeke getting wrecked because LAC stacked the line.
A good but overlooked Kevin Costner film is For Love of The Game, from 1999, where he plays a Detroit Tiger pitcher facing retirement. It's worth a look.
The one turnover was on the LAC 31. On 2nd down.
The rest of the time, the team wasn't compiling any significant yardage. They only had 247 total yards, 57 of them on the drive where the fumble occurred. They started most of their drives inside their own 25, or much worse. It was field position, coupled with a lousy offense that doesn't have any explosive plays. It takes a lot for this team to get a few first downs. It doesn't take much for this team to not score, seeing as how they have 13 total points in the last 3 games.
"Not all that young" feels disingenuous (not saying it was said intentionally). Arguably their best players on defense are Judon (31), Gonzalez (21), Barmore (24), Peppers (28), Bentley (27), Jonathan Jones (30). There are some signs of potential future careers with guys like Keion White (24) and Mapu as a hybrid LB/SS (24).
Of their 8 or so core players on defense, only 2 are on the wrong side of 30. The other names older than 30? Lawrence Guy.
Thats it. Guys like JC Jackson, Mills, and Wise are in their later 20's, but everyone of value on this defense - minus Judon and Jones - all should have at least 3+ years left in the tank.
As for the free agents: Jalen Mills (who cares?) Miles Bryant (who cares?) and Josh Uche (who cares?). The only player of value as a free agent is Dugger, and while he's a very good in-box safety, his coverage has always left a little to be desired. After claiming Mills, Peppers, and Phillips off the scrap heap - all guys who have probably played more consistently than Dugger - I'm cool with letting Dugger walk, too.
TL;DR: The defense is basically in "run it back" mode for next season, and its only taking up 40% of the cap in the process. Theres no doubt the offense needs to be taken behind the woodshed and shot. But, again, if you can run back a top 5ish defense, land one of the top 2 QBs in the draft, and you have $100M in cap to rebuild the offense (currently projected at $75M - 3rd most - and will get $15M by cutting JC Jackson, $3M by cutting Guy, $8M by cutting Godchaux) - its really, really hard for me to bitch and cry about how "BB the GM WReCkED the PATZ!!11!" (not directed at you Nick, just in general).
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You don't say.
Bryant hasn't been a complete waste this year. He is a serviceable backup.
and about 52 yards on 2 passes...the horrible screen to Elliot and the one to Parker.
Not being disingenuous at all or playing gotcha. It's just a fact. You called them a young elite defense and it seems like you've already walked back both comments a bit. They are good. They have some young talent you can wish on. But by NFL standards the age of the unit isn't particularly young.
True.
The problem is serviceable backups don't play 75% of the snaps like he has this year, or 61% of the snaps last year.
When he's been targeted this season, opposing QB's have an 80% completion rate (FUCKING EIGHTY) and a 109.6 passer rating. Dude has played more snaps than guys like Tavai, Mills, etc.
Yes, I know I'm irrational about this guy. He deserves it.
Well, yeah. Injuries and roster cuts play a role here.
I'm not high on the guy but as a 4th or 5th corner, he is useful.
I'm not high on the guy but as a 4th or 5th corner, he is useful.
I would love to see him in a role where he gets 20-30% of the snaps, maybe.
But it's just not that, it'll never be that. BB likes him for whatever reason.
And to be clear, he's giving up those numbers on the highest volume of any DB on the team.
Opposing QB's are 44/55 against him. To give an idea how bad that is, JC Jackson, who hasn't exactly been a juggernaut out there has held receivers to 24/41 (58.5%). Bentley is 18/25, not very good. Peppers is 15/26. Tavai is 12/20. Those are the guys healthy all year. Jon Jones is 20/32, Gonzo was 22/32. Wade is 17/25. Mills is 11/18.
The issue for Bryant is that when he's on the field, he's picked on, and he can't stop anything. He got 61% of the snaps last year, and again, he saw the 2nd most targets on the team. He was better last year, giving up only 47/70 completions (67.1comp%) and a 101.4 QB rating.
Except he just gave you a detailed breakdown and summary on why you should consider them, at their core, to be a young, elite defense.
If Gonzalez, Judon and Marcus Jones were actually playing I really don’t think there’d be an argument here.
What’s the detailed breakdown? Some ages? Judon is going to be 32. Might start to slip and already has faded down the stretch in previous years here. Gonzalez looked great but provided only a small sample before getting hurt. I’m optimistic though. Mapu can’t get off the bench and White’s name is barely ever called for making plays outside of preseason. Jonathan Jones is a fine slot corner. Marcus Jones isn’t going to be a superstar but he seems like a good piece. And Peppers who’s also not young in NFL terms. I’m not calling KFP a liar or crazy or anything I just think we need to pump the brakes a bit on this “young elite defense locked up for years” that’s all.
Talking about age and he produced ages. So, yes. In a world where peoples replies are sometimes barely a sentence I give that a "detailed" label. As far as your statements, Judon, might start to slip? Gonzalez looked great but? Those aren't really hills you're dying on. Mapu I guess is fair but he's more nothing right now. He's Schrodinger's safety. Is he good or bad? White has been all over the field lately. The flashes are there with him. Agreed on Jon Jones. Marcus looked like a dynamic two way player when healthy. It would seem like you're taking the negative on some of things that could go either way. Totally defensible mind you, this team is unentertaining in almost every aspect. Just not the way some of the others are seeing it.
I think whatever label you want to put on it, we should move forward on the assumption that if Bill is back next year the defense will be good. The defense is good this year, despite losing it's best players and the cluster on offense...
The defense was arguably the best in the league last year, excellent the year before, very good before that... The Belichicks (with Mayo) have shown as a unit that they can turn out very good defense every single year no matter what minor changes we see in the personnel.
Now, the question probably is... do you think the failures in other areas are so bad that it is worth scrapping that. Could well be. My personal opinion is you suggest bringing in some more hands in player personnel and offensive coaching staff and roll forward. But I can see the argument that you roll the dice that you can hire a GM/Coach combo who gives you more aggregate value. Lot of risk there, but also potential for reward.
The defense was arguably the best in the league last year, excellent the year before, very good before that... The Belichicks (with Mayo) have shown as a unit that they can turn out very good defense every single year no matter what minor changes we see in the personnel.
Now, the question probably is... do you think the failures in other areas are so bad that it is worth scrapping that. Could well be. My personal opinion is you suggest bringing in some more hands in player personnel and offensive coaching staff and roll forward. But I can see the argument that you roll the dice that you can hire a GM/Coach combo who gives you more aggregate value. Lot of risk there, but also potential for reward.
Jake Browning is 17-19 and the Bengals have 14 points.
The Pats have 13 points in their last 3 fucking games combined.
The Pats have 13 points in their last 3 fucking games combined.
I read Jake Browning and thought Browning Nagle, who, I am guessing, would also be an upgrade at the Pats QB position.
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