SOSH Running Dogs

underhandtofirst · Dec 31, 2008

rbeaud said:
Hmmm, five years reading this site (or it's predecessor) nearly daily and my first post will be to the running forum. Makes sense, I can run better than I can analyze baseball. Anywho, on New Years Day I've signed up for the local 5K. Right over roads I regularly travel though not on my regular running route. Hit the gym treadmill for 3.15 with 10 sec negative splits ending with 5:50. I felt I could have either held that pace or dropped it further had I not been trying dilegently to cut back this week. So, would it be unreasonable to think in my first 5K I can break 20 minutes (6:26 pace I believe)?

I'll try the pace option on my Garmin to see if it can help me hold the required tempo. The alarms are set between 5:50 and 6:25. Should the treadmill work make me feel like I can hit 6:26, I guess I'll know soon enough...

Good luck with the sub 20 run. You're right in my range for the 5k. Two years ago I ran 20:35 4 days after running 4 miles at 7:21 pace which wasnt flat out (avg HR of 156 and my max is 187, finished at 167). Last year I ran 19:44 but it was during training for a half marathon so I wasnt doing a lot of speedwork. I did do a time trial of almost 5 miles at 6:49 pace about 10 days before my 5k (avg HR 167, finished at 179).

Maybe those times will help you gauge your time a little. Careful with those paces, 5:50-6:25 is a HUGE difference in a 5k. Do you have any other faster workouts you've done to better assess what you can run? Maybe an interval workout? How about other workouts? You'll most likely be able to go faster in the race than in training because of other people and the adrenaline.

underhandtofirst · Dec 31, 2008

Frisbetarian said:
Shitty news, sorry to hear it hermanito.

I really expected them to approve a local runner that close to the qualifying time. Sorry if I got your hopes up.

No matter, you still ran one hell of a marathon.

Fucking bureaucrats.

Thanks, but I'm ok with it. In fact with my illness and time off recently I've lost a lot of my fitness and wasnt really in any kind of shape to prepare for Boston this year. I'll just have to run 3:15 next year so they dont have any choice but to take me :gonk:

BleacherFan said:
You know better than any of us Fris, but I get the sense the BAA has ruined 'the spirit' of Boston over the last 10+ years for the almighty dollar. This is just another example among other stuff like taking away numbers from the local running clubs....

I appreciate the fact that they stick to the standards. But I have to admit it does kill me watching people who havent trained walk their way to a 6+ hour marathon (14+ min/mile pace). I'm not sure that's the spirit of the marathon. I do greatly respect those who fight their way through the race, it is quite an accomplishment to train for and then run an entire marathon.

underhandtofirst · Dec 31, 2008

Well 2008 is in the books for me.

Miles: 1593.5
Time: 215:48 (almost 9 days)
Pace: 8:08 avg

20+ miles in all but 4 weeks (illness and recovery from marathon prevented the other 4)
30+ miles in 26 weeks including 22 straight during the summer
100+ miles in 11 months (Dec was 60, because of illness)

PRs
5k: 19:39
Half: 1:35
Marathon: 3:19

For 2009:
Planning for 5k in early Feb and 10k in early May, Baystate Marathon in October. Hopefully a few 5ks along the way.

Goals:
5k: sub 19 during the summer while training for marathon. I believe this will show I'm fit enough to run sub 3:15
10k: 41:00
Marathon: 3:15, although I'm going to train for 3:10 I think if the spring running has me fit enough.
Drop a few lbs (5 would be good)
Run a few more 5ks in the good times series this summer as alternatives to training sessions

BleacherFan · Dec 31, 2008

underhandtofirst said:
Well 2008 is in the books for me.

Miles: 1593.5
Time: 215:48 (almost 9 days)
Pace: 8:08 avg

20+ miles in all but 4 weeks (illness and recovery from marathon prevented the other 4)
30+ miles in 26 weeks including 22 straight during the summer
100+ miles in 11 months (Dec was 60, because of illness)

PRs
5k: 19:39
Half: 1:35
Marathon: 3:19

For 2009:
Planning for 5k in early Feb and 10k in early May, Baystate Marathon in October. Hopefully a few 5ks along the way.

Goals:
5k: sub 19 during the summer while training for marathon. I believe this will show I'm fit enough to run sub 3:15
10k: 41:00
Marathon: 3:15, although I'm going to train for 3:10 I think if the spring running has me fit enough.
Drop a few lbs (5 would be good)
Run a few more 5ks in the good times series this summer as alternatives to training sessions

Nice job - how was your mileage from 2007 to 2008? It sounds like a big jump - 25% or more?

I ended up running 2804 miles this year - down from 3342 in 2007 but it was worth it....I ended up with 2 PR's I think - 5M in 26:50 and 10k in 33-something.. Some goals for 2009 for me:

* 2:35-2:40 in Boston - hopefully sub 2:40
* 10k in sub 33
* Sub 1:14 half possibly in the fall

Today's workout felt like 20 miles - it sucks running in that fresh snow.

underhandtofirst · Dec 31, 2008

BleacherFan said:
Nice job - how was your mileage from 2007 to 2008? It sounds like a big jump - 25% or more?

2006 - 950
2007 - 1350
2008 - 1600

Not sure I'll jump much more next year if at all with only running 5 days per week at most. I'll get some more quality and keep working on the PRs.

Oh and I agree, today was tough sledding in the snow. I did a repeat of a tempo run from last week and just couldnt get any traction on the hills. My fitness isnt as long gone as I thought. Today's run was faster and with a lower HR than last week in worse conditions.

Got to love that December had much more snow than normal. Hopefully it lets up a bit in the next few weeks to allow you to get some good long runs in.

rbeaud · Jan 1, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
Good luck with the sub 20 run. You're right in my range for the 5k. Two years ago I ran 20:35 4 days after running 4 miles at 7:21 pace which wasnt flat out (avg HR of 156 and my max is 187, finished at 167). Last year I ran 19:44 but it was during training for a half marathon so I wasnt doing a lot of speedwork. I did do a time trial of almost 5 miles at 6:49 pace about 10 days before my 5k (avg HR 167, finished at 179).

Maybe those times will help you gauge your time a little. Careful with those paces, 5:50-6:25 is a HUGE difference in a 5k. Do you have any other faster workouts you've done to better assess what you can run? Maybe an interval workout? How about other workouts? You'll most likely be able to go faster in the race than in training because of other people and the adrenaline.

I didn't get a chance to read your post before today's race. However, it did/does validate my presumption that sub-20 is possible. My hilly 4.15 road loop was run at 6:59 pace and I felt the treadmill work proved I could up the pace successfully. I was shooting for the low pace as Runner's World indicated a 6% improvement on your best pace, for short distances, is better for overall times even if you lag on subsequent miles. That would be a 6:17 pace based on my 6:38 best during the 4.15 run. Seemed to work for me as per below.

The weather certainly wasn't conducive to running. Low teens w/ an even zero after windchill per NOAA. The leftover of four inches from yesterday's snow covered the ground. The organizers recommended against shooting for PRs. Luckily it was mostly slushy and there may have been one area where my footing was a concern. Definitely felt the adrenaline/people factor as I surged toward the front and clocked an even 6:00 at the first mile. Some headwinds (and reality setting in?) dropped me to 13:50 at the second mile. Even though I knew the roads, I wasn't prepared to kick it up a notch for the final, downhill .5+ leg to the finish. I should have, as when I turned for the last 100 yds and could finally see the timer it was at 19:53. Grabbed whatever high gear I had left and ran through at 20:06, eighth overall. Not bad for a 39 yr old.

The Garmin did not help or hurt as it didn't like the cold seemingly. It stuck at 1 sec until about .6 miles whereupon it then woke up and recorded my 6:42 pace. Would have been helpful to assess my performance over the last mile. Sub-20 sounds so aluring. Overall it was a lot of fun. And I do have to be honest, yesterday was our 11th wedding anniversary and I couldn't short change the wife (who also ran). Many adult beverages, a nice cigar, and less than optimal sleep.

rbeaud · Jan 1, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
Do you have any other faster workouts you've done to better assess what you can run? Maybe an interval workout? How about other workouts?

Just to keep things separate I broke off this quote. Tell me more. My current "regime" involves leaving the house with the Garmin and running. Pace is what it is and I only really push it when I'm cramming in a run before a time deadline. Distance ranges from 4.15 to 9.1 based on where I go in the 'hood, although I increase when I feel long runs leave too much in the tank at completion. I keep track of my pace but only at the end of a run (was it better than yesterday or the last similar run, yes, good!). In the last month, I have been hitting 25+ miles/wk and it shows as my average pace has dropped to 7:0x for all runs from 7:2x.

My goal is to be prepared for a marathon in the near future. I say prepared since it was my wife's idea that I have latched onto so that my weekly runs have some meaning to them. In the meantime, being able to run local 5/10ks with decent pace sounds like fun. I have vowed the 2010 version of today's race will break 19:00....

AusTexSoxFan · Jan 2, 2009

My marathon training is starting to heat up. Got an 18 miler this coming Sunday. Have been feeling good about my training this year. Have been incorporating much more hill work and actual course work rather than the usual Hike & Bike Trail running which I did last year. Now that it is January, now it feels like my marathon is getting close (Feb. 15).

underhandtofirst · Jan 4, 2009

rbeaud said:
I didn't get a chance to read your post before today's race. However, it did/does validate my presumption that sub-20 is possible. My hilly 4.15 road loop was run at 6:59 pace and I felt the treadmill work proved I could up the pace successfully. I was shooting for the low pace as Runner's World indicated a 6% improvement on your best pace, for short distances, is better for overall times even if you lag on subsequent miles. That would be a 6:17 pace based on my 6:38 best during the 4.15 run. Seemed to work for me as per below.

Nice job. With a little better pacing sub 20 is definitely in you future. I bet if you a a race this weekend you'd do it.

rbeaud said:
Just to keep things separate I broke off this quote. Tell me more. My current "regime" involves leaving the house with the Garmin and running. Pace is what it is and I only really push it when I'm cramming in a run before a time deadline. Distance ranges from 4.15 to 9.1 based on where I go in the 'hood, although I increase when I feel long runs leave too much in the tank at completion. I keep track of my pace but only at the end of a run (was it better than yesterday or the last similar run, yes, good!). In the last month, I have been hitting 25+ miles/wk and it shows as my average pace has dropped to 7:0x for all runs from 7:2x.

My goal is to be prepared for a marathon in the near future. I say prepared since it was my wife's idea that I have latched onto so that my weekly runs have some meaning to them. In the meantime, being able to run local 5/10ks with decent pace sounds like fun. I have vowed the 2010 version of today's race will break 19:00....

I wonder if you might help yourself out a bit more by altering your effort on your runs. For example, slow a couple 4 mile runs a week to 8:15-8:45 pace. And increase a couple other 4 mile runs to 7:00 pace. Then you long run (>9 miles) at 8+ pace. The slower runs will allow you body to recover a bit and allow you to run the other days harder. Based on your times I'm betting your lactate threshold pace is around 7:10-7:20 pace. This is close to you half marathon pace and is the pace you can run without accumulating lactate quickly which iends up slowing your legs down. Running close to your LT pace trains your body to increase the lactate threshold and goes a long way to improving your marathon and other race times.

With that said, if you really enjoy getting out there are running at whatever pace feels right that day go ahead. You should run in a way that you enjoy. Dont try and alter it if you're happy with what you're doing now. If changing reduces you enjoyment then it isnt worth it. You sound like you're doing pretty well already.

AusTexSoxFan said:
My marathon training is starting to heat up. Got an 18 miler this coming Sunday. Have been feeling good about my training this year. Have been incorporating much more hill work and actual course work rather than the usual Hike & Bike Trail running which I did last year. Now that it is January, now it feels like my marathon is getting close (Feb. 15).

I did a lot more hill work last year in preparation for my Half Mar last Feb and it was very helpful. Good luck the next couple weeks. They are tough just before you start to taper.

underhandtofirst · Jan 5, 2009

Just getting back into running the last 2 weeks with 20+ each week. Ran a time trial 5k this afternoon in 20:35 which I think was reasonable. I'd like to go sub 20 in Feb and today makes me think I should be able to do that. I just have to avoid running the first 1/4 mile in 82 like I did today, that's 5:28 mile (17 min 5k) pace. Apparently I thought I was running against BleacherFan.

Splits: 6:22, 6:57, 7:20 over last 1.1 (6:42 pace) = 20:35 (6:37 pace)

I've been working on putting together a 60 mile peak (49 avg) plan for a fall marathon. It's a combination of a 70 mile plan (60 avg) and 55 mile plan (43 avg). The goal is to stick with 5 days of running per week, but bump the miles from last year's peak of 55.

BleacherFan · Jan 5, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
I just have to avoid running the first 1/4 mile in 82 like I did today, that's 5:28 mile (17 min 5k) pace. Apparently I thought I was running against BleacherFan.

Ahahah, there's nothing worse than going too fast to start a tempo run. I don't know about you but it's very hard to convince my body/legs to slow down :unsure:

I've been working on putting together a 60 mile peak (49 avg) plan for a fall marathon. It's a combination of a 70 mile plan (60 avg) and 55 mile plan (43 avg). The goal is to stick with 5 days of running per week, but bump the miles from last year's peak of 55.

Nice - for me one more slightly down mileage week since the gym is still on bankers hours. Yesterday did 8.5 easy and then wanted to pull off a 25:00 final 4 but the guy I was running with faltered a little and we ended up running like 25:30 the last 4 (6:10,6:20,7,6). Legs felt great...a good sign - 60 miles total for last week

underhandtofirst · Jan 5, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Ahahah, there's nothing worse than going too fast to start a tempo run. I don't know about you but it's very hard to convince my body/legs to slow down

The one positive is that I think I could hold that for a mile. But for Sunday I knew I had a long way to go and I was able to slow it down somewhat. The big hill in I have on my 5k course at the 1-1.5 mile mark took care of any extra speed I was carrying.

rbeaud · Jan 5, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
Nice job. With a little better pacing sub 20 is definitely in you future. I bet if you a a race this weekend you'd do it.
I wonder if you might help yourself out a bit more by altering your effort on your runs. For example, slow a couple 4 mile runs a week to 8:15-8:45 pace. And increase a couple other 4 mile runs to 7:00 pace. Then you long run (>9 miles) at 8+ pace. The slower runs will allow you body to recover a bit and allow you to run the other days harder. Based on your times I'm betting your lactate threshold pace is around 7:10-7:20 pace. This is close to you half marathon pace and is the pace you can run without accumulating lactate quickly which iends up slowing your legs down. Running close to your LT pace trains your body to increase the lactate threshold and goes a long way to improving your marathon and other race times.

Well, I'm a little annoyed with myself. Even though I knew after the hill it was downhill and 0.5+ miles to finish, I did little to pick up my pace. As I now know from the last kick, running a little harder as was possible. The 6 minute first mile was also probably too quick. Although this weekend I comfortably ran my 4.15 loop with 6:26 and 6:28 through the first two miles (6:47 avg). What is the pace strategy for shorter distances, should I have still had a kick left for the end or have been spent?

How does one maintain a certain pace? The treadmill has been helpful for me to get used to a pace faster than my training. But slowing down is soooo hard. It's not that I would be unhappy training at any other pace it's that it feels slow to go slow. I'll have to give modified pace training a try out. There's a five miler on 25 Jan that I would like to give a go. This one is on the same streets as my training runs. No excuses for failing to kick properly this time...

One last thing, what's the recommended next day or day after run for the shorter distances? My rear quads felt sore by my glutes, other than that no ill effects. I wasn't able to run until Sat (2nd day) and was limited to the 4.15 route though I really wanted a 7+ mile run.

underhandtofirst · Jan 5, 2009

rbeaud said:
Well, I'm a little annoyed with myself. Even though I knew after the hill it was downhill and 0.5+ miles to finish, I did little to pick up my pace. As I now know from the last kick, running a little harder as was possible. The 6 minute first mile was also probably too quick. Although this weekend I comfortably ran my 4.15 loop with 6:26 and 6:28 through the first two miles (6:47 avg). What is the pace strategy for shorter distances, should I have still had a kick left for the end or have been spent?

I'm not quite sure how you can say 6:26/28 are comfortable if you had to slow to what must have been 7:05 pace for the last 2 miles. With that said, it sounds like your lack of sleep and adult beverages were are large factor in your not running sub 20 the other day. If you are banging out 6:47 avg over 4 miles "comfortably" then I'd think 19:30-45 is really where you're at.

My kick is usually a slight increase with about .3 miles to go and then a full sprint at about 200m left. I've always felt if I had anything left in the tank at the end of a race I either didnt kick well enough or I didnt run fast enough during the race.

rbeaud said:
How does one maintain a certain pace? The treadmill has been helpful for me to get used to a pace faster than my training. But slowing down is soooo hard. It's not that I would be unhappy training at any other pace it's that it feels slow to go slow. I'll have to give modified pace training a try out. There's a five miler on 25 Jan that I would like to give a go. This one is on the same streets as my training runs. No excuses for failing to kick properly this time...

One last thing, what's the recommended next day or day after run for the shorter distances? My rear quads felt sore by my glutes, other than that no ill effects. I wasn't able to run until Sat (2nd day) and was limited to the 4.15 route though I really wanted a 7+ mile run.

I find the more fit I am the better I am able to keep a certain pace or increase it slightly over the length of a run. One of the goals I have is to run faster at the end of the run than in the beginning (negative splits). For example, for 9 miles I'll try to start in the 8:30-8:45 range, then by the end be down around 8:00-8:15. Doesnt always work out, either I go out too fast or the legs just dont have it. But finishing faster does feel great.

A heart rate monitor is very helpful. Your HR will increase gradually over a run if you maintain the same pace because of heart rate drift. The drift is larger in warmer and more humid weather as your body works to keep you cool.

I hear you about going slow. It is downright painful to go real slow on some days, it kind of feels like a waste of time. But from what I've read these recovery days are useful in helping your muscles repair themselves and beating them up day after day will slow your improvement. A heart rate monitor also helps you better classify your effort for each run.

You can determine different zones for training using % of HR Max or % of Heart Rate reserve. HR Max is the highest you can get your heart rate. I use the HR I had at the end of a 2 mile race, which is 187. This happens to be almost dead on the normal estimate for my age of 37, but it varies from person to person. I;ve read HR max is all genetics and cannot be changed by running. You can improve your resting HR. Mine is in the low 50s now, down from 60 or so a couple years ago. HR Reserve (HRR) is the difference between your HR Max and your resting HR.

Based on this data I try to keep my easy runs between 130-146, tempo runs between 159-168, Long runs from 140-158, VO2 max 170-177. These are guidelines I use to try and make sure I'm running at the correct paces for different types of workouts. The ranges are the HR from the beginning of the run to the end. This is just what I've put together from reading various people. I'm sure I could probably tweak it a little to improve some more, but it at least gets me in the ballpark.

BleacherFan · Jan 5, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
I'm not quite sure how you can say 6:26/28 are comfortable if you had to slow to what must have been 7:05 pace for the last 2 miles. With that said, it sounds like your lack of sleep and adult beverages were are large factor in your not running sub 20 the other day. If you are banging out 6:47 avg over 4 miles "comfortably" then I'd think 19:30-45 is really where you're at.

One rule of thumb I go by is if you can hold a conversation with someone at that pace then it's comfortable. It sounds like you may have just gone out too early and went into oxygen debt too early.

My kick is usually a slight increase with about .3 miles to go and then a full sprint at about 200m left. I've always felt if I had anything left in the tank at the end of a race I either didnt kick well enough or I didnt run fast enough during the race.
I find the more fit I am the better I am able to keep a certain pace or increase it slightly over the length of a run. One of the goals I have is to run faster at the end of the run than in the beginning (negative splits). For example, for 9 miles I'll try to start in the 8:30-8:45 range, then by the end be down around 8:00-8:15. Doesnt always work out, either I go out too fast or the legs just dont have it. But finishing faster does feel great.

Pacing/Racing is one of the hardest things for me. My MO is to go out way to quick and I can remember few races where I ran it smart and had something left in the tank. Everyone's different ---- the workout above is one of my favorite ones. I second buying a 20$ HR monitor from Polar - this will get you an idea of your intensity on different paces. If you're doing that 6:47 run solo I bet you're working a little harder than you suspect.

AusTexSoxFan · Jan 5, 2009

So I did my 18 miler yesterday. Feeling sore today. Yeeowch! Granted, I'm not doing as many miles this year but I didn't think a long run would leave me so stiff.

Big thing was yesterday when I started, it was humid and 65 degrees. Three hours later when I finished, it was windy, cold and 42 degrees. Massive cold front came in at about mile 2 and the wind was swirling all around making things difficult. Keep in mind most of it goes along Town Lake here in Austin so there were a couple times where it was really blowing across the water. I've had better, but still good hill work at miles 12-14 to get me used to running them when tired.

rbeaud · Jan 5, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
I'm not quite sure how you can say 6:26/28 are comfortable if you had to slow to what must have been 7:05 pace for the last 2 miles. With that said, it sounds like your lack of sleep and adult beverages were are large factor in your not running sub 20 the other day. If you are banging out 6:47 avg over 4 miles "comfortably" then I'd think 19:30-45 is really where you're at.

My kick is usually a slight increase with about .3 miles to go and then a full sprint at about 200m left. I've always felt if I had anything left in the tank at the end of a race I either didnt kick well enough or I didnt run fast enough during the race.
I find the more fit I am the better I am able to keep a certain pace or increase it slightly over the length of a run. One of the goals I have is to run faster at the end of the run than in the beginning (negative splits). For example, for 9 miles I'll try to start in the 8:30-8:45 range, then by the end be down around 8:00-8:15. Doesnt always work out, either I go out too fast or the legs just dont have it. But finishing faster does feel great.

A heart rate monitor is very helpful. Your HR will increase gradually over a run if you maintain the same pace because of heart rate drift. The drift is larger in warmer and more humid weather as your body works to keep you cool.

I hear you about going slow. It is downright painful to go real slow on some days, it kind of feels like a waste of time. But from what I've read these recovery days are useful in helping your muscles repair themselves and beating them up day after day will slow your improvement. A heart rate monitor also helps you better classify your effort for each run.

You can determine different zones for training using % of HR Max or % of Heart Rate reserve. HR Max is the highest you can get your heart rate. I use the HR I had at the end of a 2 mile race, which is 187. This happens to be almost dead on the normal estimate for my age of 37, but it varies from person to person. I;ve read HR max is all genetics and cannot be changed by running. You can improve your resting HR. Mine is in the low 50s now, down from 60 or so a couple years ago. HR Reserve (HRR) is the difference between your HR Max and your resting HR.

Based on this data I try to keep my easy runs between 130-146, tempo runs between 159-168, Long runs from 140-158, VO2 max 170-177. These are guidelines I use to try and make sure I'm running at the correct paces for different types of workouts. The ranges are the HR from the beginning of the run to the end. This is just what I've put together from reading various people. I'm sure I could probably tweak it a little to improve some more, but it at least gets me in the ballpark.

Great, I've got a converstation going! Both you and BF discussed my recent 4.15 time. For accuraty's sake, I've grabbed my Garmin to post accurate measures (which includes HR). Mile 1: 6:27 (154; includes 0.7 @ +6% grade); Mile 2: 6:29 (166; includes 0.5 @ -10% grade); Mile 3: 7:16 (172; got to pay it back...includes 0.5@ +10% grade); Mile 4: 6:55 (173; 0.7 @ -6% grade); 0.15: 6:48 (176; level). Convention is + is uphill and - is downhill. I've erred conservatively on grade and distance. I think this is "hilly"; could be wrong though.

As another measure, today I ran 8 @ 7:07 avg pace (169 avg HR; 178 max HR). Garmin results as follows. Mile 1: 6:31 (160, level); Mile 2: 7:06 (167, level); Mile 3: 7:51 (171, includes 0.4 @ 11% grade); Mile 4: 6:55 (169, includes 0.3 @ -10% grade); Mile 5: 7:29 (171, includes 0.3 @ +10% grade); Mile 6: 6:30 (172, includes 0.4@ -11% grade love that downhill!); Mile 7: 7:14 (172, level); Mile 8: 6:56 (174, level). I was really trying to take it easy on this run...obviously I've got to work on slowing down my runs.

So my "excuse" is that I run non-level routes; at least that is what I say to feel good! I'm not saying that the US team should be aware of me; I'm probably working off a "runners high" of sorts based on my recent time. After checking my 5K against recent events, I see that placing in the top 50 is probably the best case against local competition.

I may not be projecting the right demeanor; I'm just overly pleased with my recent finish and would like the opinion of BF and UTF (and anyone else that may post).

Cheers,

Roland

underhandtofirst · Jan 5, 2009

rbeaud said:
Great, I've got a converstation going! Both you and BF discussed my recent 4.15 time. For accuraty's sake, I've grabbed my Garmin to post accurate measures (which includes HR). Mile 1: 6:27 (154; includes 0.7 @ +6% grade); Mile 2: 6:29 (166; includes 0.5 @ -10% grade); Mile 3: 7:16 (172; got to pay it back...includes 0.5@ +10% grade); Mile 4: 6:55 (173; 0.7 @ -6% grade); 0.15: 6:48 (176; level). Convention is + is uphill and - is downhill. I've erred conservatively on grade and distance. I think this is "hilly"; could be wrong though.

As another measure, today I ran 8 @ 7:07 avg pace (169 avg HR; 178 max HR). Garmin results as follows. Mile 1: 6:31 (160, level); Mile 2: 7:06 (167, level); Mile 3: 7:51 (171, includes 0.4 @ 11% grade); Mile 4: 6:55 (169, includes 0.3 @ -10% grade); Mile 5: 7:29 (171, includes 0.3 @ +10% grade); Mile 6: 6:30 (172, includes 0.4@ -11% grade love that downhill!); Mile 7: 7:14 (172, level); Mile 8: 6:56 (174, level). I was really trying to take it easy on this run...obviously I've got to work on slowing down my runs.

So my "excuse" is that I run non-level routes; at least that is what I say to feel good! I'm not saying that the US team should be aware of me; I'm probably working off a "runners high" of sorts based on my recent time. After checking my 5K against recent events, I see that placing in the top 50 is probably the best case against local competition.

I may not be projecting the right demeanor; I'm just overly pleased with my recent finish and would like the opinion of BF and UTF (and anyone else that may post).

Cheers,

Roland

The HR numbers are ok, but without knowing your real max or resting HR the numbers dont really mean anything. If for example, your max HR is 180 then you;re obviously runnning at the redline and have raised you LT close to you HR max and VO2 max which is pretty impressive. OTOH, if your HR Max is 210 then I can see how you may be somewhat comfortable at 160-170. These are extreme examples, but I think you can see what I'm getting at.

I run on some hilly routes a lot. One thing I try to do from time to time is do it in a perfect out and back run. Then I take my splits for different sections on the out and then back section and average the HR and time. I feel that if I ran at a nice even effort (not even pace) then the my paces and HR for the average values will be consistent. Even effort means I run quicker on the downhills because it is easier and I un slower on the uphills because it is harder. Larger hills make it tougher to run even effort because of the energy required to go up the hill and then going down some of your energy is wasted absorbing the shock going down.

Also, the more I look at your workouts the more amazed I am you havent run close to 19 mins in the 5k. One explanation I can think of is that you're made for distance and have a real good marathon in your future. You may not have super top end speed which helps in 5k and shorter, but you can run very close to your top speed for a long distance. You may find those pace converters make it look like you underperform fo shorter distances, but that you always seem to blow away the longer distance predictions. I read Nate Jenkins' blog a lot and he talks about his 400m PR was close to 60, his mile PR is only 4:14, but he can also run a 2:14 marathon (5:09 pace). He gets better at longer distances. I on the other hand go the other way. I was a 400/800m guy in HS. I ran a 53.5 400m and 2:02 800m (40 lbs ago!). My 5k time says I should be able to go under 3:10 by most prediction models. I'm just not built for that yet. I found the link below helped me reinforce my thought that I was more of a shorter distance guy. My exponent is 1.095. Nate Jenkins' exponent based on his PRs is 1.058, but it may be even lower because his marathon PR is a couple years old, and I'm using his recent mile PR

Prediction

BleacherFan · Jan 6, 2009

Hit the gym treadmill for 3.15 with 10 sec negative splits ending with 5:50

Sorry, I just did a double take when I saw this older post....So, you ran 6:10,6:00,5:50 and you can't break 20 in a road race? Were you running downhill on this treadmill?? :lol:

You said you went through mile 1 in 6:00 - how did you feel at this point? Lungs burning? Legs heavy? Short breathing? You ask about how you get faster - and this is gonna sound wierd, but more training miles will get you faster in the long term.

If you can run 18:36 on a treadmill with any regurality you should be able to break 20, heck 19 in a road race

Sorry if I'm missing anything. How many miles a week do you run? Do you do anything at different paces?

Dave

Marceline · Jan 7, 2009

Beginner here...I just started running about 4-5 weeks ago. I realized I was getting fat and my biggest exercise used to consist of going to the fridge to get a beer, so I decided to get myself in shape and figured running was a good start for that.

I'm going to run the Narragansett 5k on 2/1 and then the Krispy Kreme Challenge the following weekend. My goal at this point is to break 30 minutes on the 5k since I'm running about a 10:00-10:30 mile right now. I'm not sure if this will be possible since I seem to have hit a plateau where I can't really improve my speed at all. If I try to run any faster I just get winded and can't get through the 5k distance. Maybe I'm just trying to move things along too quickly here, I dunno.

Any general training/improvement tips for a beginning runner?

BleacherFan · Jan 7, 2009

Joe Sixpack said:
Beginner here...I just started running about 4-5 weeks ago. I realized I was getting fat and my biggest exercise used to consist of going to the fridge to get a beer, so I decided to get myself in shape and figured running was a good start for that.

I'm going to run the Narragansett 5k on 2/1 and then the Krispy Kreme Challenge the following weekend. My goal at this point is to break 30 minutes on the 5k since I'm running about a 10:00-10:30 mile right now. I'm not sure if this will be possible since I seem to have hit a plateau where I can't really improve my speed at all. If I try to run any faster I just get winded and can't get through the 5k distance. Maybe I'm just trying to move things along too quickly here, I dunno.

Any general training/improvement tips for a beginning runner?

I would suggest not too rush anything - especially if you haven't run in a while. And, as you build some constant mileage, you will naturally get faster. Just be patient and keep doing what you're doing training wise

Dave

underhandtofirst · Jan 7, 2009

Joe Sixpack said:
My goal at this point is to break 30 minutes on the 5k since I'm running about a 10:00-10:30 mile right now. I'm not sure if this will be possible since I seem to have hit a plateau where I can't really improve my speed at all. If I try to run any faster I just get winded and can't get through the 5k distance. Maybe I'm just trying to move things along too quickly here, I dunno.

Any general training/improvement tips for a beginning runner?

Getting winded is part of the process. :lol: Just keep building up the miles and you'll find yourself getting faster. How long are your normal runs now? I got back into running a few years ago and I remember walking 1/4 mile (or more) out of every mile just to get through 3 miles. I gradually cut down my walking time until I was able to handle 3 miles without walking. Then I added on a 1/4 mile to each run 3 days a week.

Take a look at this program as a way to build up your endurance for a 5k.
Novice 5k program

rbeaud · Jan 7, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Sorry, I just did a double take when I saw this older post....So, you ran 6:10,6:00,5:50 and you can't break 20 in a road race? Were you running downhill on this treadmill?? :rolling:

You said you went through mile 1 in 6:00 - how did you feel at this point? Lungs burning? Legs heavy? Short breathing? You ask about how you get faster - and this is gonna sound wierd, but more training miles will get you faster in the long term.

If you can run 18:36 on a treadmill with any regurality you should be able to break 20, heck 19 in a road race

Sorry if I'm missing anything. How many miles a week do you run? Do you do anything at different paces?

Dave

I really did run those paces and really did feel good enough to keep going! In December my avg was 25 mi/wk and could tell that the additional miles were showing dividends (probably avg 18 mi/wk in the fall). You can see upthread that UTF has suggested I work in different paces. All the same, I'm pretty excited that I dropped from 7:15 to 6:42 on my usual runs.

As to the 6:00, it felt good at the start although I could tell the pace was quick. None of the usual signs that I was overloaded, although I had a stitch in my side around 1.5 miles that changed my breathing. Certainly started to feel the strain around 2.5 miles. Could have been drinking the day before, could have been my first race, could have been I'm not really that fast

Today's treadmill workout certainly didn't remind me of that 18:36 day. Two miles @ 7:30, 6:15, 7:30, 6:15, 7:30. Those 2 X 1 @ 6:15 did not feel easy. And my shoulders were sore the whole run. I don't know if you do treadmill work, but I always feel like the treadmill is more optimistic compared to the road. I may be spending two weeks in the UK running on hotel treadmills, so maybe I can see how repeatable that 18:36 is.

rbeaud · Jan 7, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
The HR numbers are ok, but without knowing your real max or resting HR the numbers dont really mean anything. If for example, your max HR is 180 then you;re obviously runnning at the redline and have raised you LT close to you HR max and VO2 max which is pretty impressive. OTOH, if your HR Max is 210 then I can see how you may be somewhat comfortable at 160-170. These are extreme examples, but I think you can see what I'm getting at.

I run on some hilly routes a lot. One thing I try to do from time to time is do it in a perfect out and back run. Then I take my splits for different sections on the out and then back section and average the HR and time. I feel that if I ran at a nice even effort (not even pace) then the my paces and HR for the average values will be consistent. Even effort means I run quicker on the downhills because it is easier and I un slower on the uphills because it is harder. Larger hills make it tougher to run even effort because of the energy required to go up the hill and then going down some of your energy is wasted absorbing the shock going down.

Also, the more I look at your workouts the more amazed I am you havent run close to 19 mins in the 5k. One explanation I can think of is that you're made for distance and have a real good marathon in your future. You may not have super top end speed which helps in 5k and shorter, but you can run very close to your top speed for a long distance. You may find those pace converters make it look like you underperform fo shorter distances, but that you always seem to blow away the longer distance predictions. I read Nate Jenkins' blog a lot and he talks about his 400m PR was close to 60, his mile PR is only 4:14, but he can also run a 2:14 marathon (5:09 pace). He gets better at longer distances. I on the other hand go the other way. I was a 400/800m guy in HS. I ran a 53.5 400m and 2:02 800m (40 lbs ago!). My 5k time says I should be able to go under 3:10 by most prediction models. I'm just not built for that yet. I found the link below helped me reinforce my thought that I was more of a shorter distance guy. My exponent is 1.095. Nate Jenkins' exponent based on his PRs is 1.058, but it may be even lower because his marathon PR is a couple years old, and I'm using his recent mile PR

Prediction

I can't say I've checked my max HR. My resting is around 58 bpm (that's what I get standing still waiting for the Garmin to locate satellites). I doubt I'm a freak of nature and expect I'm around avg for a 39 yr old male. The predictor places me in the same ballpark as you based on my 5k and Monday's 8M (1.098) with a slight improvement if I cherry pick mile 1 of the 5k (1.080). This year could be interesting as races are definitely in my future and I'm no longer running alone...I have SoSH!

BleacherFan · Jan 7, 2009

rbeaud said:
I really did run those paces and really did feel good enough to keep going! In December my avg was 25 mi/wk and could tell that the additional miles were showing dividends (probably avg 18 mi/wk in the fall). You can see upthread that UTF has suggested I work in different paces. All the same, I'm pretty excited that I dropped from 7:15 to 6:42 on my usual runs.

Yes, great improvement - don't get me wrong, I was just a little confused that's all

As to the 6:00, it felt good at the start although I could tell the pace was quick. None of the usual signs that I was overloaded, although I had a stitch in my side around 1.5 miles that changed my breathing. Certainly started to feel the strain around 2.5 miles. Could have been drinking the day before, could have been my first race, could have been I'm not really that fast :rolling:

Well, you did it once which means you should be able to do it again. The stitch sounds like possibly dehydration and possibly just irregular breathing from nerves. My first race I was so amped up, I was hyperventilating .25 miles in and I was never the same for the rest of the race. This definitely comes with more racing experience.

Today's treadmill workout certainly didn't remind me of that 18:36 day. Two miles @ 7:30, 6:15, 7:30, 6:15, 7:30. Those 2 X 1 @ 6:15 did not feel easy. And my shoulders were sore the whole run. I don't know if you do treadmill work, but I always feel like the treadmill is more optimistic compared to the road. I may be spending two weeks in the UK running on hotel treadmills, so maybe I can see how repeatable that 18:36 is.

Everyone's different when it comes to treadmills - for me, because of my size and gait I guess, I always feel that 6:00 pace is easier outside on the roads versus on a treadmill. I never feel at ease 100% on one of these - and with my doubles, I will be on treadmills for about 10-15 miles a week.

Keep at it, increasing your mileage if possible and good things will happen.

BleacherFan · Jan 8, 2009

Speaking of treadmills, I was bored and tried a treadmill effort workout. I had no idea what to start out at so I started at a 5% incline at 9mph (6:40 pace).

Mile 1 - 5% (5:55)
Mile 2-3.5 5.5% (5:50)
Mile 3.5-4 6% (5:45)
Mile 4-4.5 6.5% (5:41)

The pace is roughly the perceived effort pace - I'm not sure about the effort - I definitely was huffing and puffing more (my HR was 172 when I was immediately done) but my legs didn't feel spent.

rbeaud · Jan 11, 2009

Two more good runs, each for different reasons yet still disappointing. First the good.

9 Jan: 6:43 , 6:33, 7:10, 6:58, 6:56, 7:09, 6:51, 6:39 (0.30). A total of 7.3 miles, 166 avg HR. Best pace at this distance by :10/mile.
10 Jan: 6:58, 6:52, 7:53, 7:26, 7:41, 7:47, 7:34, 7:33, 7:45, 7:24 (0.62). A total of 9.62 miles, 161 avg HR. Best distance.

For this week then, a total of 32 miles (also a new PR) over five days. I'm hoping to hit 35+ this week in anticipation of the 5M on 25 Jan. Good thing next week is a taper week, I don't think that 35 miles on treadmills is going to happen when I visit merry old England. I usually run morning/evening since I find it hard to log much more than 5-7 miles on a treadmill.

So a few PRs for me. Problem is, I was trying to slow down my pace! On the first run I gave up early and concentrated on making sure my strides were long. With the second run, I had a 6:14 pace through the first 1/4 mile. I worked on getting my pace down a little more diligently. I was able to slow down a bit yet did not achieve the 8:30 goal pace. Even still it felt like I was plodding along as my strides were short. Is that the right way to slow down the pace?

I was pleasantly surprised that even the modest change to pacing made running the 9.6 easy. It seemed that 11-12 miles where possible if I had the additional time. Clearly I need to work on different paces.

underhandtofirst · Jan 11, 2009

rbeaud said:
Two more good runs, each for different reasons yet still disappointing. First the good.

9 Jan: 6:43 , 6:33, 7:10, 6:58, 6:56, 7:09, 6:51, 6:39 (0.30). A total of 7.3 miles, 166 avg HR. Best pace at this distance by :10/mile.
10 Jan: 6:58, 6:52, 7:53, 7:26, 7:41, 7:47, 7:34, 7:33, 7:45, 7:24 (0.62). A total of 9.62 miles, 161 avg HR. Best distance.

That must have been some party before your other 5k because for you not to break 20 after running these workouts is beyond my comprehension. With more miles you're in for a pretty rewarding year I think.

I was able to slow down a bit yet did not achieve the 8:30 goal pace. Even still it felt like I was plodding along as my strides were short. Is that the right way to slow down the pace?

I worked hard last summer slowing down for recovery runs. I found slowing my running tempo helped. It actually felt like my stride was longer when going slower. If you've got the Garmin you should be able to adjust your pace very quickly down to 8:45 or so pace for a real easy run. Break the run down into 0.10 mile chunks and make sure you hit each .1 in 52-53 seconds, that will get you to 8:45. Not 50 or 48 either. Do this on a 3 mile run or shorter just so you dont go crazy at the slow pace

I dont have a garmin, but I use this strategy in races. I use google maps or runningahead.com or anything to set some landmarks or cross streets every .2 or .3 miles in the first mile or two. I have the times between each set in my head when the race starts. I dont use total time in case I get caught in the crowd. By .5 or .75 miles in I'm usually right on pace. This was very helpful last yea when I ran the Hyannis Half in Feb. I caught myself at 7:00 pace between .2 and .4 miles so I adjusted slightly down to 7:15 pace by 1 mile. My mile split was 7:10, but I knew I was at the correct pace based on the last 1/2 mile. It was actually relaxing because I felt good at that pace which made it easy to just chug along.

underhandtofirst · Jan 11, 2009

Did my longest run, 8.63 mi since early December before I got sick. Ran in 7:57 pace at 156 avg HR which is about 12 bpm faster than when I was in marathon training. Some reasons for the difference, I weight about 4 lbs more (4-8 seconds per mile), extra clothes probably hurt too, biggest is the loss of fitness from missing 3 weeks in December.

Today I did a nice tempo run on the treadmill, 1 mi w/u (9:00 pace), 3 miles LT pace (7:19 was around 7:05 3 months ago), 1.25 c/d (8:24 pace). Felt pretty good, legs are feeling it a very little, which is something I miss. I'm not strong enough now to run those really good workouts that hurt. Another 22 miles this week, but not very tough. My wind isnt great, but I know I could handle a lot more miles which is good. The weather sucks bigtime. With all the snow the roads are narrow and sidewalks are icy at best, icy and uneven most of the time which makes them dangerous and really unusable.

underhandtofirst · Jan 11, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Speaking of treadmills, I was bored and tried a treadmill effort workout. I had no idea what to start out at so I started at a 5% incline at 9mph (6:40 pace).

Mile 1 - 5% (5:55)
Mile 2-3.5 5.5% (5:50)
Mile 3.5-4 6% (5:45)
Mile 4-4.5 6.5% (5:41)

The pace is roughly the perceived effort pace - I'm not sure about the effort - I definitely was huffing and puffing more (my HR was 172 when I was immediately done) but my legs didn't feel spent.

If you were bored before the treadmill, I can only imagine how you felt after it.

I hate using the incline on the treadmill as it just doesnt feel like normal running. You dont have to push through the air when on a treadmill, but I feel that gets balanced out by the fact that you dont get any cooling effect from the air outside. You end up sweating something crazy with the stale air. The whole treadmill running experience just seems unnatural and doesnt allow you to be as relaxed I feel.

What is your max HR?

cgp71 · Jan 12, 2009

New to this thread, but I have been casually running 5K's for the last year with my wife, usually around 27-29 minutes depending on the course.

My question is how serious is the jump in training for a half marathon? My brother is going to run the one in Boston on May 23 and wants me to join him. I have printed out some 12 and 17 week Novice training programs would this be sufficient?

underhandtofirst · Jan 12, 2009

cgp71 said:
New to this thread, but I have been casually running 5K's for the last year with my wife, usually around 27-29 minutes depending on the course.

My question is how serious is the jump in training for a half marathon? My brother is going to run the one in Boston on May 23 and wants me to join him. I have printed out some 12 and 17 week Novice training programs would this be sufficient?

I think a 12 week one is fine. Three years ago I did just that and ended up running 3-4 days a week for 20-24 miles with a long run that progressed from 6 miles to 11 the week before the race. Obviously this wasnt optimal, but it's enough to get you through the race and reasonably good shape. If you can build up to 11 miles and arent on death's doorstep at the end of the run (tired and sore is ok) you'll be fine. If you can build up to 13 or more miles for your long run, then you'll be even better off, but you dont need to get there if you're just looking to complete the race.

5belongstoGeorge · Jan 12, 2009

I love this thread! Many of the posters are far far beyond me in terms of fitness level, but I still learn from them in many ways. Thanks to all who contribute here.

I have a situation and I need advice from experienced runners.

My 1/2 marathon race is in 13 days. I am following Hal Higdon's novice schedule,found here. My problem is this:
I probably will have to go to Chicago for the 10 days before my race. I have a treadmill available at the hotel's fitness center and I will continue to stay on schedule for training, but i will have to use a treadmill instead of running outside. I am not going to experiment with cold weather running... Are there any issues I should be aware of created by switching from roads/trails to a treadmill? I need to run 10 miles next Sunday on the treadmill... I hate the buzzy, vibration feeling I get after stepping off a treadmill but I will deal with it.

About Pace
I am going to run with a pace group during the race... I am very undisciplined when it comes to pace. Should I set the treadmill for the pace of the pace group, maybe faster? Right now I am expecting to finish the 1/2 marathon in 2:30 - 3:00. I can run 12 minute miles for ever. I feel like I am not pushing myself enough...

Right now my plan is to run with the slowest pace group, set for 2:30, and then the last 3 miles try to leave the group and ramp it up. Is that stupid, crazy, unwise? Should I try a faster pace group and then drop back if I need to?

I ran 9 miles in 1:53 yesterday, including a stop at the bathroom and walking while I drank. I was not feeling 100% and I did not push myself, and the course had some very large hills (much higher and steeper than the 1/2 course I will be running). I felt like I
had way too much left after I stopped at 9 miles.

This is my first race in 20 years and my longest race ever (I ran 5ks back in the 80's). Ive researched on line, I have talked to some experienced runners I know and now I bring this question to SoSH Running Dogs:

WTF pace should I run?

underhandtofirst · Jan 12, 2009

5belongstoGeorge said:
I probably will have to go to Chicago for the 10 days before my race. I have a treadmill available at the hotel's fitness center and I will continue to stay on schedule for training, but i will have to use a treadmill instead of running outside. I am not going to experiment with cold weather running... Are there any issues I should be aware of created by switching from roads/trails to a treadmill? I need to run 10 miles next Sunday on the treadmill... I hate the buzzy, vibration feeling I get after stepping off a treadmill but I will deal with it.

Two hours on a treadmill? If you can do that, then the sky's the limit for you. That will be as boring as can be.

But, if you're going to be in Chicago for 10 days you may be lucky and find a day that isnt so cold where you can get the 10 miles in. go to runningahead.com or mapmyrun.com or something like that an map out a 3-3.5 mile loop you can do a few times just in case you get a nice day (~40 F). Wear clothes you would for a temp 15-20 degrees higher than what it actually is out and you'll be plenty warm, but not overheated. Winter gloves may be a bit much after you've been running for a while so either use very thin gloves or even socks on your hands.

About Pace

Right now my plan is to run with the slowest pace group, set for 2:30, and then the last 3 miles try to leave the group and ramp it up. Is that stupid, crazy, unwise? Should I try a faster pace group and then drop back if I need to?

I ran 9 miles in 1:53 yesterday, including a stop at the bathroom and walking while I drank. I was not feeling 100% and I did not push myself, and the course had some very large hills (much higher and steeper than the 1/2 course I will be running). I felt like I
had way too much left after I stopped at 9 miles.

WTF pace should I run?

What is your goal for the race? Just to finish or see how fast you can go? Do you ever try and run faster (say 10 or 11 min miles) for 5 miles just to see what you can handle?

You just did 9 miles at 12:30 pace with a lot left over. If you can handle a bit of pain I wouldnt be surprised if you could go 11:00-11:30 per mile, maybe even lower if you stick with a nice even pace and go with the flow of the crowd.

Finally, if you're just going to enjoy the race and the scenery then go with a slow pace group and speed up the last few miles if necessary. If you want to see if you can go under 2:30 then head out with the 11:30 pace group and be prepared for a little more discomfort.

5belongstoGeorge · Jan 12, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
Two hours on a treadmill? If you can do that, then the sky's the limit for you. That will be as boring as can be.

But, if you're going to be in Chicago for 10 days you may be lucky and find a day that isnt so cold where you can get the 10 miles in. go to runningahead.com or mapmyrun.com or something like that an map out a 3-3.5 mile loop you can do a few times just in case you get a nice day (~40 F). Wear clothes you would for a temp 15-20 degrees higher than what it actually is out and you'll be plenty warm, but not overheated. Winter gloves may be a bit much after you've been running for a while so either use very thin gloves or even socks on your hands.
What is your goal for the race? Just to finish or see how fast you can go? Do you ever try and run faster (say 10 or 11 min miles) for 5 miles just to see what you can handle?

You just did 9 miles at 12:30 pace with a lot left over. If you can handle a bit of pain I wouldnt be surprised if you could go 11:00-11:30 per mile, maybe even lower if you stick with a nice even pace and go with the flow of the crowd.

Finally, if you're just going to enjoy the race and the scenery then go with a slow pace group and speed up the last few miles if necessary. If you want to see if you can go under 2:30 then head out with the 11:30 pace group and be prepared for a little more discomfort.

I think I will try to run all my workouts between now and the race at 11:00 (the treadmill will enforce pace discipline) and see if I can hang. I can always drop back into a slower pace group during the race if I need to.

I am a confident but cautious about this race. I want to push myself a little bit. This is my first 1/2, but I sure hope it is not my last.

And thanks!

BleacherFan · Jan 12, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
If you were bored before the treadmill, I can only imagine how you felt after it.

What is your max HR?

Good question

- Theoretically it's around 186 but I have no idea what it is. I would love to get a VOmax test if I could get one at a reasonable price.

Last week is over - it consisted of:

1 good 5m workout at 1/2 marathon pace (5:3)
2 good MP workouts (one 6 miles, other that crazy incline treadmill workout) at ~6:00
1 nice long run (16.4 - 2 hours)
4 doubles

~70 miles

Today, a nice 12 mile run in slop and a nice easy 3 mile cooldown after dinner. I hope to hit mid 70s - 80 this week - no more f-ing around!

rbeaud · Jan 14, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
That must have been some party before your other 5k because for you not to break 20 after running these workouts is beyond my comprehension. With more miles you're in for a pretty rewarding year I think.
I worked hard last summer slowing down for recovery runs. I found slowing my running tempo helped. It actually felt like my stride was longer when going slower. If you've got the Garmin you should be able to adjust your pace very quickly down to 8:45 or so pace for a real easy run. Break the run down into 0.10 mile chunks and make sure you hit each .1 in 52-53 seconds, that will get you to 8:45. Not 50 or 48 either. Do this on a 3 mile run or shorter just so you dont go crazy at the slow pace :fap:

Well the party wasn't quite when-I-was-younger-rugby style but the wife and I had fun celebrating our anniversary! I may also have shocked myself by turning in that 6:00 1M. I didn't really think that was in me.

Ok I tried a nice slow pace yesterday. I was shooting for 8:15 but found myself all over the place. Started at 6:48 and went up to 9:15 (hill) throughout my 4.15 run. After a bit, I tried to focus on keeping my HR steady at 140 (75% of 185....if that is my real max). That seemed to work better. I didn't spend this much time looking at my Garmin even when it was new! It took lots of mental effort to monitor and maintain the pace. Otherwise, it was real easy. I actually found myself running too cool and wished for more layers/gloves.

I'm not sure what I'll run today and the weather is starting to go downhill again. I would like a long run Friday (12M, 2.4 higher than last Friday's 9.6M) as I aim for 35 min this week. It's hard to get the mileage up without having a good long, say 15+, run. Is it hurting me to run 6-9M, two to three times a week?

Next week is the pre-5M week. Any suggestions on what I might try? It's all treadmill work as I am on travel, so I can probably try some distance at 5k pace. I'm thinking about targetting 15M total (down from 35M this week) including the 5M on 25 Jan?

underhandtofirst · Jan 14, 2009

rbeaud said:
Ok I tried a nice slow pace yesterday. I was shooting for 8:15 but found myself all over the place. Started at 6:48 and went up to 9:15 (hill) throughout my 4.15 run. After a bit, I tried to focus on keeping my HR steady at 140 (75% of 185....if that is my real max). That seemed to work better. I didn't spend this much time looking at my Garmin even when it was new! It took lots of mental effort to monitor and maintain the pace. Otherwise, it was real easy. I actually found myself running too cool and wished for more layers/gloves.

I'm not sure what I'll run today and the weather is starting to go downhill again. I would like a long run Friday (12M, 2.4 higher than last Friday's 9.6M) as I aim for 35 min this week. It's hard to get the mileage up without having a good long, say 15+, run. Is it hurting me to run 6-9M, two to three times a week?

Next week is the pre-5M week. Any suggestions on what I might try? It's all treadmill work as I am on travel, so I can probably try some distance at 5k pace. I'm thinking about targetting 15M total (down from 35M this week) including the 5M on 25 Jan?

Targeting the HR is probably your best bet to try and stay at a steady pace at this point. You'll get better with time. But 6:48 to 9:15 is a pretty big range! If you can go out in 6:48 and it doesnt seem fast then you're either going down steep hills or you can run 19 min 5ks. At my peak fitness I think 7:50 was the fastest I could go and felt comfortable (i.e. easy breathing, not pushing at all, could run 15+ at that pace). My 5k pace at that point was probably 6:15.

When I trained for a marathon last year I maxed out at 55 miles for a week. Some weeks in the 30-40 range consisted of:
rest,7,rest,9,rest,4,12 for 32
rest,8,4,10,rest,4,14 for 40

The 4 mile days were done at 8:45-9:00 pace (75-90 sec over marathon pace), the 7,8,9,10 were done at 8:00-8:15 (mp +30-45) and the long runs at 8:15-8:30 (mp +45-60). All runs I could hold a conversation, except the last couple miles.

I think your 6-9 mile runs are good as long as you dont run each full out. I have heard about marathon programs where you only run 3 times a week and run hard each time. The other days you do easy cross training. The goal is to keep the same hard workouts but use cross training instead of easy running to eliminate some extra pounding on your legs.

As far as race week goes, you can probably get in a shorter tempo run (about 45 seconds slower than 5k pace) 4-5 days before the race. Like 1-2 miles at easy pace, 1-1.5 miles at tempo pace, then 1-2 nice and easy. Then throw in another easy 4 miles a couple days before (none of that 6:30 stuff), you should be able to hold an easy conversation.

underhandtofirst · Jan 16, 2009

Had my most encouraging workout in a couple months today and set a new record for coldest temp for a run. Thermometer outside said 0.0, weather.com said -7 for my town. In either case it was chilly. Did 6.44 miles in just under 49 mins.

Mile warmup in about 8:20 (downhill -100 ft), tempo run of 3.85 at 7:00 pace (, cooldown of 1.7 at 8:00 pace. Avg HR of 155, the tempo portion was 166-170.

I had some light gloves on (thin knit ones) so my hands were a little cold for the first 2.5 miles. The gatorade I had in my water bottle was useless 3 miles in because it had turned to slush so it would come out of the spout. The last 3 miles I was pretty comfortable and got a kick out of the ice forming on my eye lashes. Dont get that too often.

My plan for the week called for this run yesterday, but I moved it today because it was expected to be colder today. The reasoning was that no other workout or race would be colder than this morning so by getting it done in these conditions I knew I could get through rest of the winter. This was also encouraging because the tempo part wasnt killing me. I was working hard, but knew I could go faster. I thought I was running at 7:15-7:25 pace so when I checked at home I was pretty excited.

5belongstoGeorge · Jan 16, 2009

So, I ran ( I know, for you guys this pace is a slow jog, but I call it running none the less) 5 miles in 55:30 this afternoon on the treadmill. It wasn't that demanding for me.

I am scheduled for 10 miles on Sunday and I am thinking about starting out at a 10:00 or 10:30 pace and see how that feels.

My question is this:
Which is potentially less demanding for a 1/2 marathon:
1. Starting out at an easy pace and then finishing faster?
2. Starting out fast and holding on as long as possible before slowing down if needed?

I am looking for conventional wisdom, personal experiences, or physiological facts.

Thanks!

underhandtofirst · Jan 17, 2009

5belongstoGeorge said:
My question is this:
Which is potentially less demanding for a 1/2 marathon:
1. Starting out at an easy pace and then finishing faster?
2. Starting out fast and holding on as long as possible before slowing down if needed?

I am looking for conventional wisdom, personal experiences, or physiological facts.

Thanks!

If by less demanding, you mean less painful I'd say probably starting slower and finishing strong. Starting (too) fast and holding on usually means a tough last few miles when you can't go any faster even though you're going a minute slower per mile than you used to think was an easy pace.

My first half I ran in average 8:07 pace, but it was all over the place. I had a goal of 8 min mile pace. My first mile was slow (9 min pace) because of the crowd, so I picked up the pace to 7:40 to catch up. I continued at this pace until 8-9 miles in and then I started to slow. The last 2 miles were really hard as I slowed to 9 min pace again and was getting passed by everyone which is a crappy feeling in a race.

Two years later I did a nice even 7:15-7:20 pace in a half and finished with a 7 min 13th mile, passing a couple dozen people in the last mile. I was running hard, but passing people made the pain seem less.

I've run 3 marathons, the first two I slowed quite a bit (~1 min per mile) in the last 4-8 miles. This year I took an unscheduled bathroom break in mile 2 and focused on making up the time, but I did it in small bits (5 seconds per mile) rather than doing it all the way. By mile 13 I was in a nice rythym and was passing people all the time. It was a terrific feeling blowing by people over the last 10 miles.

Make sure the first few miles are comfortable. Keep your focus in the middle just keeping your pace consistent. Try and finish strong the last 3-4. Put a big push the last 1/4 to 1/2 mile. If there is a crowd people may notice you're passing people and give you a little extra encouragement. Give it everything you have the last 100-150 yards. Target a few people use them to dig deeper and you'll find that extra gear. Remember you can stop in less than 15 seconds, you may find a gear you didnt think you had.

Frisbetarian · Jan 17, 2009

I'm going to echo that last post a bit. I had a terrible experience in my first race, a 3 1/2 miler in Wakefield. I was a pretty good athlete, but was not really a runner and was still smoking cigarettes at that point. A girlfriend talked me into signing up for the race, and when I got there and saw the skinny dudes warming up I thought I had a chance to win. Dumb kid. I ran in high top Converse All Stars, and stayed with the lead pack for the first mile and a half or so. By two miles, I thought I was going to die, and during the last mile and a half I was passed by pretty much everyone that ran that day. It is surprising that I continued racing/running, but I'm a headstrong MF and I quit smoking and got in running shape and have been running consistently since then - a period of about 30 years.

For the next year or so after that first race, I would always start toward the back of the pack and go out slow, gradually increasing my pace throughout the run. I was in no way shape or form going to place an these early races, and it was a huge psychological boost to pass tons of people along the route and rarely get passed. This is, obviously, not the most efficient way to run a race, and you are giving away time by running this way, but it sure does make you feel good about yourself. And isn't that really the point right now?

As I got more competitive, I began to run races at a more consistent pace, but always seemed to leave something for a kick over the last mile or two. I never really got over that friggin' race around Quannopowitt.

BleacherFan · Jan 17, 2009

Couldn't agree more - go out easy and try to pick it up later in the race. It's one of the best feelings passing people and finishing strong.

That being said, it's easier said than done. Stay back to start and show patience - I've run a lot of races and I wish I could say I could say I've done this a lot more. I definitely remember the few races where this strategy worked for me.

5belongstoGeorge · Jan 17, 2009

Thank you for sharing your experiences... you have all truly helped me reach a decision.

I am going to start with the 2:30 pace group and at 10 miles I am going to ramp it up from 11:45 to 11:00. At 12 mile mark, who knows... but hopefully this old fat guy is going to be passing some people.

Tomorrow I will run 10 miles on a treadmill (during Eagles/Cardinals) at 11:45 for my final long run before the race. At 8 miles I'll increase the pace.

Thanks again! The anecdotal information about passing people or being passed was invaluable. I am not out to make anyone look bad, but it is a no brainer to prefer passing others in a race.

BleacherFan · Jan 17, 2009

5belongstoGeorge said:
Thank you for sharing your experiences... you have all truly helped me reach a decision.

I am going to start with the 2:30 pace group and at 10 miles I am going to ramp it up from 11:45 to 11:00. At 12 mile mark, who knows... but hopefully this old fat guy is going to be passing some people.

Tomorrow I will run 10 miles on a treadmill (during Eagles/Cardinals) at 11:45 for my final long run before the race. At 8 miles I'll increase the pace.

Thanks again! The anecdotal information about passing people or being passed was invaluable. I am not out to make anyone look bad, but it is a no brainer to prefer passing others in a race.

Nice good luck - what half are you running anyways?

5belongstoGeorge · Jan 17, 2009

BleacherFan said:
Nice good luck - what half are you running anyways?

Thank you. I have done the miles, "got the hay in the barn" as they say, but a little good luck wouldn't hurt.
Carlsbad 1/2
8000 people and it is sold out!

I have given up my constant companions over the past couple years, iPod and headphones, for the last 2 weeks in order to get accustomed to listening to my body and in the hopes of hearing the crowd during the race. It turns out running with no music is really nice too. I am really looking forward to this race, my first race since I used to run 10Ks in the mid 80's and my first since I lost some weight and got into a reasonably fit state.

Thanks again to the veterans for sharing their wisdom. I'll let you know how it goes.

BleacherFan · Jan 17, 2009

5belongstoGeorge said:
Thank you. I have done the miles, "got the hay in the barn" as they say, but a little good luck wouldn't hurt.
Carlsbad 1/2
8000 people and it is sold out!

I have given up my constant companions over the past couple years, iPod and headphones, for the last 2 weeks in order to get accustomed to listening to my body and in the hopes of hearing the crowd during the race. It turns out running with no music is really nice too. I am really looking forward to this race, my first race since I used to run 10Ks in the mid 80's and my first since I lost some weight and got into a reasonably fit state.

Thanks again to the veterans for sharing their wisdom. I'll let you know how it goes.

Nice - regarding the hay, I remember the comment about the treadmill running 10 days out and you're right. 10 days out, you've got nothing to gain, only stuff to lose this close to the race. The thing about this stuff is that you start over-thinking stuff mentally and it does more harm than good the closer to get to a race.

Good luck and come back and visit this thread during your comeback!

5belongstoGeorge · Jan 18, 2009

Finished the treadmill 10 miles... 1:52 on the nose. The first 7 at 11:30 and the last 3 at 10:30... those last 3 miles I felt like Larry Fitzgerald passing the members of the Eagles' secondary.

For the race I may wait until 11 miles and try to finish even a little faster. We'll see.

rbeaud · Jan 19, 2009

underhandtofirst said:
Targeting the HR is probably your best bet to try and stay at a steady pace at this point. You'll get better with time. But 6:48 to 9:15 is a pretty big range! If you can go out in 6:48 and it doesnt seem fast then you're either going down steep hills or you can run 19 min 5ks. At my peak fitness I think 7:50 was the fastest I could go and felt comfortable (i.e. easy breathing, not pushing at all, could run 15+ at that pace). My 5k pace at that point was probably 6:15.

When I trained for a marathon last year I maxed out at 55 miles for a week. Some weeks in the 30-40 range consisted of:
rest,7,rest,9,rest,4,12 for 32
rest,8,4,10,rest,4,14 for 40

The 4 mile days were done at 8:45-9:00 pace (75-90 sec over marathon pace), the 7,8,9,10 were done at 8:00-8:15 (mp +30-45) and the long runs at 8:15-8:30 (mp +45-60). All runs I could hold a conversation, except the last couple miles.

I think your 6-9 mile runs are good as long as you dont run each full out. I have heard about marathon programs where you only run 3 times a week and run hard each time. The other days you do easy cross training. The goal is to keep the same hard workouts but use cross training instead of easy running to eliminate some extra pounding on your legs.

As far as race week goes, you can probably get in a shorter tempo run (about 45 seconds slower than 5k pace) 4-5 days before the race. Like 1-2 miles at easy pace, 1-1.5 miles at tempo pace, then 1-2 nice and easy. Then throw in another easy 4 miles a couple days before (none of that 6:30 stuff), you should be able to hold an easy conversation.

The 6:48 is downhill for the last mile; the 9:15 is uphill with a steep grade (10% or so). In both cases, I was watching the Garmin closely to hold the 140-ish BPM. As that was my goal, I feel good about the run. I ran the treadmill today - 10M @ 8:23 pace. Definitely a comfortable pace. It's probably too long a run before Sunday's 5M but I couldn't help but feel guilty. I chose family fun over getting the last 14 miles of last weeks training. And I couldn't help myself, ran 1k at 5:45 pace just to see if I could at the end of my 10M. I really should read the board responses before I do things :buddy:.

I'll take it easy Wednesday, say 4M @ 8:00. Would Thur-Sat off be too much rest before Sunday? I feel like there ought to be one more run in there...

Also, given my 6:29 5k, care to suggest a target pace for the 5M? I think this race will be flatish as well.

BleacherFan · Jan 19, 2009

rbeaud said:
And I couldn't help myself, ran 1k at 5:45 pace just to see if I could at the end of my 10M. I really should read the board responses before I do things :buddy:.

Out of curiosity, how did that feel? Heavy legs and/or sucking wind? Not a bad finish to a 10 mile run

I'll take it easy Wednesday, say 4M @ 8:00. Would Thur-Sat off be too much rest before Sunday? I feel like there ought to be one more run in there...

Everyone is different when it comes to your taper. Personally, I would maybe go light Thursday and Friday and take Saturday off. To be on the safe side, I would run one day either Thursday or Friday. Some people don't like to take the day off before a race because they feel 'rusty'. I generally take the day off two days before the race and then run easy the day before.

Also, given my 6:29 5k, care to suggest a target pace for the 5M? I think this race will be flatish as well.

To be on the safe side, I would start at low 7:00's and slowly pick it up. The big mistake people think in a 5M is they underestimate the toughness of those last 2 miles after the 5k.

SOSH Running Dogs

stud who hits bombs

stud who hits bombs

stud who hits bombs

Member

stud who hits bombs

Member

Member

Member

stud who hits bombs

stud who hits bombs

Member

stud who hits bombs

Member

stud who hits bombs

Member

Member

Member

stud who hits bombs

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

stud who hits bombs

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

stud who hits bombs

stud who hits bombs

stud who hits bombs

New Member

stud who hits bombs

Left Coast

stud who hits bombs

Left Coast

Member

Member

stud who hits bombs

stud who hits bombs

Left Coast

stud who hits bombs

♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫

Member

Left Coast

Member

Left Coast

Member

Left Coast

Member

Member