2017 Butler Watch: Love Me Tender

GammonsSpecialPerson

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I checked - Collins was mentioned once in the game thread, not at all individually in the goat thread, though plenty of vitriol for the front seven and defense in general. Hightower got called out way more.

OK, that's fair - we'll call it 2%.
Huh, I guess we are bad at diagnosing things in real time; it's pretty obvious from the clips in the Gillslee thread that Collins had an awful game but it seems everyone missed it. I would have sworn there was some criticism in that game thread but my memory is apparently awful.

Cooks is the very definition of luxury,
Cooks may seem like a luxury this season, but next season he is not. Amendola is almost certainly done after this year, unless he's willing to pay the team (a possibility, given his last few restructures). Edelman turns 30 and his contract is also up - he will make way more in the open market than he can staying here. Hogan and Mitchell will both be two years from FA. Cooks, once signed to an extension, becomes the centerpiece of the position group for the next five seasons. He is more expensive than they've traditionally paid, but he's also not yet in his prime and he is already proven to be a top 10 or top 5 WR in the league.
 

H78

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Cooks may seem like a luxury this season, but next season he is not. Amendola is almost certainly done after this year, unless he's willing to pay the team (a possibility, given his last few restructures). Edelman turns 30 and his contract is also up - he will make way more in the open market than he can staying here. Hogan and Mitchell will both be two years from FA. Cooks, once signed to an extension, becomes the centerpiece of the position group for the next five seasons. He is more expensive than they've traditionally paid, but he's also not yet in his prime and he is already proven to be a top 10 or top 5 WR in the league.
Fair point, but you're sure making the bolded sound much easier said than done, particularly when at that point we may have to also talk about extending a quarterback that doesn't have a supermodel wife affording him (and us) the luxury of far-below-market-value contracts.
 

GammonsSpecialPerson

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Fair point, but you're sure making the bolded sound much easier said than done, particularly when at that point we may have to also talk about extending a quarterback that doesn't have a supermodel wife affording him (and us) the luxury of far-below-market-value contracts.
Looking at Patscap.com, there's no reason to think that the team has a cash or cap problem. Unless Cooks wants to be paid way more than other WR, they have more than enough cash & cap to extend Cooks (and others). I would guess the team has already begun talking to his agent about the basic parameters of a deal, and would be cautiously optimistic for an extension to be done by the end of this season (allowing them to use some of the remaining space in this years accounting). Even if they have to use the FT on someone next year, they will still have plenty of space to work with. And there's no reason, other than paranoia, to think Cooks would not want to discuss an extension.

Put another way: the Pats didn't trade for the guy without planning what to do when his contract is up after next season. And given the position group, the general team situation, and the WR market, there's no reason to think they can't work something out.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Huh, I guess we are bad at diagnosing things in real time; it's pretty obvious from the clips in the Gillslee thread that Collins had an awful game but it seems everyone missed it. I would have sworn there was some criticism in that game thread but my memory is apparently awful.



Cooks may seem like a luxury this season, but next season he is not. Amendola is almost certainly done after this year, unless he's willing to pay the team (a possibility, given his last few restructures). Edelman turns 30 and his contract is also up - he will make way more in the open market than he can staying here. Hogan and Mitchell will both be two years from FA. Cooks, once signed to an extension, becomes the centerpiece of the position group for the next five seasons. He is more expensive than they've traditionally paid, but he's also not yet in his prime and he is already proven to be a top 10 or top 5 WR in the league.
While I agree with your overall premise about Cooks not being a 'luxury' and the need to plan down the road at WR, in the absence of nitpicking about players like Hogan and Mitchell, I do have to take a moment to consider the bolded.

I think it's highly unlikely that anyone gives Edelman a big contract after next season. 31 yo slot receivers don't generate that kind of market. The obvious and most common comparison is Welker and while he got more in Denver, it was t way above and beyond what NE was offering and it was more a game of musical chairs than outbidding. He tried to use his leverage and the Pat's called his bluff because there was an obvious replacement for him in Amendola. While he is great I think his value is strongest to the Pats and their system and while it may be wishful thinking, I think the difference in offers he would get would be mitigated enough that he'd take a little less to stay on the team.

That's 100% conjecture, so it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot, but end of day I don't see a team throwing something huge at him were he to hit FA, or at least enough that it means he leaves for purely financial reasons. I wouldn't be shocked if they used some of their cap space this year to extend him a year or two out.

That also doesn't mean they don't need to start planning and I completely agree that Cooks isn't a 'luxury'. Even keeping Edelman, he's going to Welker-out, so to speak, at some point in the near future and they then need a #1. It's purely anecdotal but it seems like JE does a better job of getting down quick and avoiding big hits than Welker did, but he still takes a pounding and hasn't had a great injury history. Cooks was a great move for future and present and I agree they extend him at some point. In hindsight, there's not any player I regret them not having the chance to pick at 32 as opposed to having him, but that's cursory to an extent as I haven't combed through everyone thoroughly. Very least he's a young, known quantity as opposed to a slightly younger crapshoot.
 

GammonsSpecialPerson

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I think it's highly unlikely that anyone gives Edelman a big contract after next season. 31 yo slot receivers don't generate that kind of market. The obvious and most common comparison is Welker and while he got more in Denver, it was t way above and beyond what NE was offering and it was more a game of musical chairs than outbidding. He tried to use his leverage and the Pat's called his bluff because there was an obvious replacement for him in Amendola. While he is great I think his value is strongest to the Pats and their system and while it may be wishful thinking, I think the difference in offers he would get would be mitigated enough that he'd take a little less to stay on the team.

That's 100% conjecture, so it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot, but end of day I don't see a team throwing something huge at him were he to hit FA, or at least enough that it means he leaves for purely financial reasons. I wouldn't be shocked if they used some of their cap space this year to extend him a year or two out.
Let's not quibble over what "big" is - suffice to say that I think Edelman will get offered more money by some other team when his contract expires. Said offer will be "bigger" than what the Patriots are willing to pay a 31-year old slot receiver. You are correct - Edelman's decision will probably be about more than just money, though money is always a big part of any calculus.

If there's a parallel to the Welker situation, I think it directly relates to Cooks - instead of trying to replace Welker/Edelman with a player from outside the organization at the same time as the old guy departed, they've brought in Cooks a year early. They will know, for sure, how Cooks fits into the offense/plan, and they will not have to compete with other clubs to acquire him (two distinct problems from the Welker -> Amendola transition).

Edelman may see a short-term, lesser-money deal to stay in NE as ideal; however, it may not make sense for the Patriots to want him back. Hogan is making not-insignificant money. Mitchell may be worthy of an extension himself in 2019, which would cut into any multi-year offer to Edelman. And Cooks's extension is going to be very expensive (by Patriots WR standards). Take Edelman's 2017 pay, add it to Amendola's 2017 restructure, and add Cooks's remaining entry level deal in 2017 ... and they are still short of what Cooks could (should?) command in 2018 and beyond. Add to that the fact that Gronk's contract escalates next season (as does Allen's) and the $ starts to add up.

Will Edelman take an Amendola-level pay cut to stay? The fan in me says "PLEASE" - the rest of me thinks "that's not happening".

Finally, it makes no sense to dip into this season's cap to extend a WR who will be 31 when the extension kicks in. No matter how much we love him. Edelman will not be paid for past performance and every scrap of $ lying around when the dust settles in 2017 should be applied to Cooks's signing bonus/extension.
 

tims4wins

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Butler being a distraction is pretty low on my list of concerns. He has to play well if he wants his big payday. Worst case they trade him like they did with Collins, but A) I think Butler will be a better soldier; B) a CB can't "freelance" in the same way a LB can - if he doesn't run the play, then there are going to be a lot of highlights of long TDs on him, which won't play well in free agency; and C) By last year, Collins had cemented his reputation as an athletic freak who was an ascending playmaker, whereas while Butler is viewed as a very good corner (made the NFL top 100 players list this year), he is still regarded as a scrappy overachiever. If his film is bad, his contract will suffer, unlike Collins IMO.
 

dcmissle

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I was told he was disgruntled and would be a large distraction for the team. Or maybe people just didn't know half of what they claim to...
I think most of those comments were prefaced by "if ..."

Butler has played this smartly, IMO. I expect him to be thoroughly professional about this, ball out, and get a nice contract -- but probably not with the Pats. And I'm fine with that.
 

pappymojo

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I think most of those comments were prefaced by "if ..."

Butler has played this smartly, IMO. I expect him to be thoroughly professional about this, ball out, and get a nice contract -- but probably not with the Pats. And I'm fine with that.
Just curious, but if he had played it differently, would the outcome be any different?
 

dcmissle

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If nothing had happened, the outcome may well have been the same. I respect him for trying to better his situation, not going ballistic when Gilmore was signed, sitting out from voluntaries when it made sense, and now coming back when the trade didn't materialize. And reportedly getting a $50MM offer along the way.

He's not a pushover. He has backbone, but he's not stupid. He's likely a year away from unfettered FA.
 

Rough Carrigan

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If nothing had happened, the outcome may well have been the same. I respect him for trying to better his situation, not going ballistic when Gilmore was signed, sitting out from voluntaries when it made sense, and now coming back when the trade didn't materialize. And reportedly getting a $50MM offer along the way.

He's not a pushover. He has backbone, but he's not stupid. He's likely a year away from unfettered FA.
The only thing I would note is that, as mentioned earlier in this thread, no NFL team has signed a guy with a first round tender away from his previous team for something like 13 years! Lavernues Coles circa 2004. So it was a tremendous long shot to begin with, even more so when this draft was touted as being full of good CB prospects. All this hassle and the 30,000 foot view of things makes it seem like something of a waste of time.
 

Harry Hooper

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As noted previously, if he plays 2017 for about $4 million, he's probably about $8 million behind what he could have earned over the 2016 and 2017 seasons (via a multiyear deal with the Pats). A big FA deal a year from now will certainly help him out.
 

lexrageorge

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The only thing I would note is that, as mentioned earlier in this thread, no NFL team has signed a guy with a first round tender away from his previous team for something like 13 years! Lavernues Coles circa 2004. So it was a tremendous long shot to begin with, even more so when this draft was touted as being full of good CB prospects. All this hassle and the 30,000 foot view of things makes it seem like something of a waste of time.
I'm not sure time was wasted, and I'm not sure how much of a hassle it was for anyone involved other than perhaps Butler's original agent.

Butler got visibility on what he would be worth on the open market next offseason. He didn't really lose anything. The Patriots got Butler back at a reasonable cost without really any impact to them, aside from Butler missing a voluntary workout in April.
 

edmunddantes

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And which he had missed voluntary workouts before, so it's not even necessarily a new occurrence driven by his contract squabble.
 

joe dokes

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I'm not sure time was wasted, and I'm not sure how much of a hassle it was for anyone involved other than perhaps Butler's original agent.

Butler got visibility on what he would be worth on the open market next offseason. He didn't really lose anything. The Patriots got Butler back at a reasonable cost without really any impact to them, aside from Butler missing a voluntary workout in April.
I think this is about right. The need to fill time and space with content created a round-the-clock defcon 10 among those on the outside. I doubt it was quite that stupid on the inside. I suspect Butler knew where the Patriots were and where they were (and weren't) willing to go. And then he found out the same from NO. The ratio of "reports" about what was happening to actual conversations or new developments was probably about 10,000 to 1.

It was probably little more then an RFA version of BB's dealing with Hightower.
 

lars10

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We all love Chad, but I don't really consider him much of a Pats insider. If this came from Curran or someone like that I'd be more worried
That 'article' or one-question mailbag seemed like the definition of click bait.
 

BigSoxFan

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I mean, some of his suppositions are grounded in truth but there has been absolutely zero evidence that Belichick is looking to deal Butler. This team has lots of good passing attacks coming up with Tampa, Atlanta, Chargers, Denver, Oakland, Miami, Pittsburgh etc. We're going to need all the DBs we can get soon. It's certainly a possibility but I'd bet against it.
 

DourDoerr

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As soon as BB realizes which is the team's biggest weakness - slot receiver, linebacker or DL - I think he'll trade Butler to shore up that weakness. I'd rather he used picks and of course it depends on what the trade partner wants, but BB knows how close this team is along with the fact that his star starting QB is 40yo. I think he's testing Rowe and Jones to be sure of what he has this year with the side benefit that it lessens the chance of injury to Butler.

Butler has value - although not as much as he could have if he had another year under contract - but enough to bring back a quality player that could help this year's team at least. Hell, he'd have the most value to another contender in need of a quality CB, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's where BB went.

It's either going to be Butler for that need player or Butler for a pick to replace the pick that's used for the need player. It's just a matter of when BB knows which need he's filling.
 

Super Nomario

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As soon as BB realizes which is the team's biggest weakness - slot receiver, linebacker or DL - I think he'll trade Butler to shore up that weakness. I'd rather he used picks and of course it depends on what the trade partner wants, but BB knows how close this team is along with the fact that his star starting QB is 40yo. I think he's testing Rowe and Jones to be sure of what he has this year with the side benefit that it lessens the chance of injury to Butler.

Butler has value - although not as much as he could have if he had another year under contract - but enough to bring back a quality player that could help this year's team at least. Hell, he'd have the most value to another contender in need of a quality CB, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's where BB went.

It's either going to be Butler for that need player or Butler for a pick to replace the pick that's used for the need player. It's just a matter of when BB knows which need he's filling.
They'll likely get a comp for Butler anyway, so I don't think there's much reason to do this unless Butler seems like a malcontent.

If they trade Butler, they may find that CB is the thinnest position on the roster.
 

Stitch01

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There's a real groundswell of this sentiment in the media this week and it seems a little overblown IMO. If Butler becomes a coachability problem, sure, they could move him. But deciding he's heading out of town in season based on a bit less playing time against two very tall wideouts? Butler saying all the right things in the media too, not like he's bitching about the lost playing time. If they could get a star front seven player for Butler maybe I could see it, but that doesnt seem like a likely return.

If they move Butler the depth chart looks like Gilmore/Rowe/Jones.....Bademosi. I know the Pats are playing a fair amount of 3 safety looks, but man, we better hope like hell Gilmore doesnt get hurt if that trade goes through.

I dont think they're gonna pay Butler this offseason, but dont see moving him in season being very likely unless Butler is a real locker room problem or someone is willing to massively overpay.
 

Super Nomario

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But the comp pick wouldn't be until 2019
True, but on the other hand they (probably) don't have to play Johnson Bademosi or Jomal Wiltz if they keep Butler.

It's a year of Butler + 2019 comp pick vs whatever return (2018 pick)? To me that's gotta be pretty high unless they think Butler won't be Butler in a contract year.

People point to Jones and Collins and they do trade guys, but they also let guys play out contract years all the time, too. Ryan, Sheard, Hightower did last year (not counting the one-year guys). The Jones and Collins trades are still more the exception than the rule and the Patriots' rep for dealing guys is mostly because basically no one else does it at all.
 

tims4wins

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I don't disagree, I don't think he is getting traded either. Honestly I could even see him back with the Pats next year when he realizes the market isn't as lucrative as he thought, a la Hightower. But maybe he goes somewhere else out of spite.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Butler seems like an emotional kind of guy. We've seen that on the field and we've seen some of it in how he answers questions with the media, and he seems to put a lot on himself. I think that can make him a little streaky -- he can play poorly when he's down on himself and he can play nasty and with an edge when his confidence is high.

Volatility is probably also exacerbated by it being a UFA year. Not to mention that we're talking about a guy that has had one of the most interesting career arcs in NFL history. We all were worried in 2015. How do you respond after making arguably the biggest play in Super Bowl history? I think we all were impressed that he went back to work and seemed determined not to be a oe-hit wonder. But maybe all that has a bit of a slower burn.

He's on the right team to stay grounded. And at least on some level he seems to know that. You can get burned bad betting against Malcolm Butler. Bill is certainly not sentimental and won't miss an opportunity to improve the club. But I also think Butler has a pretty high ceiling when he's right at a position that can make a very big difference.
 

DourDoerr

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If they could get a star front seven player for Butler maybe I could see it, but that doesnt seem like a likely return.
It doesn't, but we're not privy to all the variables out there that would free such a player. Last year of contract. Unhappy with coach. Unhappy with contract, etc. Talib was available and he was a perfect fit and nobody saw that coming. Small sample, lightning in a bottle, etc., but BB has to be concerned with the yards AND points given up. If BB knows he isn't going to re-sign Butler, then it's freeing in a way, as Belichick's only losing 13 games from Butler and worries only about getting 13 games from the player he trades for at a position of greater need.

Trading Butler plus a pick is always an option too.
 

DourDoerr

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People point to Jones and Collins and they do trade guys, but they also let guys play out contract years all the time, too. Ryan, Sheard, Hightower did last year (not counting the one-year guys). The Jones and Collins trades are still more the exception than the rule and the Patriots' rep for dealing guys is mostly because basically no one else does it at all.
I don't think Sheard is in this same class, as he looked pretty bad last year and letting him play out his contract wasn't that much of a gamble. Hightower is also somewhat of an exception in that he plays a position that's not a priority these days and thus the cap numbers devoted to it have a lower ceiling.

There is a premium on CB's, however, and Ryan is a prime example of how well just good CB's will be rewarded. Jones and Collins play high cap positions too and knowing that they were going to hit the market and get huge cap-busting offers probably made it a lot easier to pull the trigger and get something that would help fill the coming gap. Butler and BB are at that crossroads now. If the Pats' D was outstanding and there weren't any glaring needs elsewhere, I too think Butler would finish out the year, but as long as things are as unsettled as they are now, Butler's in play.
 

Stitch01

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It doesn't, but we're not privy to all the variables out there that would free such a player. Last year of contract. Unhappy with coach. Unhappy with contract, etc. Talib was available and he was a perfect fit and nobody saw that coming. Small sample, lightning in a bottle, etc., but BB has to be concerned with the yards AND points given up. If BB knows he isn't going to re-sign Butler, then it's freeing in a way, as Belichick's only losing 13 games from Butler and worries only about getting 13 games from the player he trades for at a position of greater need.

Trading Butler plus a pick is always an option too.
There is also the option of keeping Butler since he fills a position of need on the current team. Id say that linebackers are a greater need than corner at present, but I probably think the chances of the right fit for a trade coming together are smaller than you think they are and that's one injury away from changing. I dont actually think this is a Jamie Collins like situation at this point, but I do think it is more likely if Butler gets traded in a Collins like deal for a modest return than the right player for player trade coming together midseason.
 
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Super Nomario

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If they trade Butler, cornerback depth might be the biggest problem with the team. Rowe was out yesterday, Jones got picked on, Butler played wire-to-wire, and even with Gilmore leaving for a bit they still didn't put Bademosi in the game.

EDIT1: They could trade Butler, but they'd need to add another CB if they did. It only makes sense to me if they like someone else who hits the trading block (like they did with Van Noy last year) or they love what one of the Practice Squad guys is giving them in practice.

EDIT2: They have another reason to keep Butler: to suppress Rowe's playing time. If Rowe plays 50% of snaps this year, they give Philadelphia a third-round pick in 2018. It's a fourth if he doesn't hit that mark. Right now (after missing yesterday's game), Rowe is at 35%. If he stays the third CB they have a pretty good chance to keep him under 50%; if they trade Butler, he's obviously going to exceed that (barring injury). So whatever compensation comes back for Butler, you also need to factor in the potential loss of draft capital with Rowe's increased playing time.
 
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dcmissle

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Stitch correctly points out that they'd have to draw an inside straight to find a deal that makes sense. Nobody is doing us any favors.

Beyond that, I don't see the upside in weakening a unit that is a relative strength on a defense that through 3 weeks is weak. If you deal him and the injury bug bites the corner position, you are screwed.

Butler has to play well for himself if not the team, and the defense has to focus on getting better with what they have. I'm not counting on any notable additions.

We're fortunate not to be 1 and 2.
 

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I don't think this is a Collins situation either. The Pats had tape of Collins dogging it and it was costing them on the field. Butler has been exemplary and yesterday his tackling was outstanding as usual. He did a great job several times of getting Hopkins down quickly after a catch on short yardage.

It goes without saying that an injury to a CB quickly kills depth, but I think BB would weigh that against a unit, say linebackers, that already has no depth and is giving up runs and the middle of the field. If you're giving up 30 ppg, does it really matter if you have depth at CB? It'd be ideal to have it, but no one has the ideal - it's too expensive.
 

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Thanks SuperNomario, I didn't know that about the Rowe deal and it's certainly a factor. I don't think it would hinder BB though if he thought he could better this year's team. Again, we're in Brady's waning years and this team is very close, but does have - or at least appears to have - a couple of holes. I don't think BB is going to allow his team to give up this many points knowing that it will ultimately be its undoing.

We're somewhat spoiled here, but loaded teams and legitimate championship contenders are hard to come by and you don't easily let a season slip away when a move or two might have made a difference. Malcolm Butler is a fantastic corner and gives the team the luxury of very good cornerback play on the outside. And yet they're given up 95 points in 3 games. Maybe there's a fix down the road in house and we get to keep Butler - fantastic. It might be a case of getting Hightower back to full strength, Wise getting his feet under him and providing Flowers with some pass rush support. But if there isn't a fix in house, then history tells us BB will make a move (or two or three) and, unfortunately, Butler is one of his biggest assets. Offseason noise already tells us a Butler deal is something that at least has been broached.
 

BigSoxFan

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I don't think this is a Collins situation either. The Pats had tape of Collins dogging it and it was costing them on the field. Butler has been exemplary and yesterday his tackling was outstanding as usual. He did a great job several times of getting Hopkins down quickly after a catch on short yardage.

It goes without saying that an injury to a CB quickly kills depth, but I think BB would weigh that against a unit, say linebackers, that already has no depth and is giving up runs and the middle of the field. If you're giving up 30 ppg, does it really matter if you have depth at CB? It'd be ideal to have it, but no one has the ideal - it's too expensive.
It also has to be very difficult to integrate a mid-season acquisition into a major role. Have to think our best bet for improved defense is keeping Butler/Gilmore intact, getting Hightower healthy, and adding McClellin around mid-season.
 

Stitch01

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I don't think this is a Collins situation either. The Pats had tape of Collins dogging it and it was costing them on the field. Butler has been exemplary and yesterday his tackling was outstanding as usual. He did a great job several times of getting Hopkins down quickly after a catch on short yardage.

It goes without saying that an injury to a CB quickly kills depth, but I think BB would weigh that against a unit, say linebackers, that already has no depth and is giving up runs and the middle of the field. If you're giving up 30 ppg, does it really matter if you have depth at CB? It'd be ideal to have it, but no one has the ideal - it's too expensive.
I hate PPG as a metric (7 points from giving up a 92 yard drive against KC counts the same as 7 points from a Clowney fumble return for TD), especially from a three game sample, but I think the concern would be that a deal might just end up leading to a defense that isnt any more effective, just giving up points in a different way.
 

DourDoerr

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It also has to be very difficult to integrate a mid-season acquisition into a major role. Have to think our best bet for improved defense is keeping Butler/Gilmore intact, getting Hightower healthy, and adding McClellin around mid-season.
I don't know if it's the best bet, but it's certainly the easiest and I hope you're right. The difficulty of mid-season acquisition adjustments doesn't mean you don't do them - and BB did last year by bringing in Van Noy the same day he shipped out Collins. Might be a model for any Butler trade.
 

Super Nomario

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It goes without saying that an injury to a CB quickly kills depth, but I think BB would weigh that against a unit, say linebackers, that already has no depth and is giving up runs and the middle of the field. If you're giving up 30 ppg, does it really matter if you have depth at CB? It'd be ideal to have it, but no one has the ideal - it's too expensive.
Yes, it does matter if you have depth at CB. The Texans put up points yesterday throwing at Jonathan Jones, who would be forced into a bigger role with Butler gone. Bademosi is not an option behind him.

The top-end talent is better at CB than LB, but the depth is probably worse, has fewer options than haven't been tried yet (LB could at least try Harris / McClellin / Langi), plus more CB play than LB. And honestly, the top-end talent might be worse if they trade Butler. Everything you see as a reason to trade Butler I see as a reason not to trade Butler. The defense has been terrible, yes - so why are we trading one of the better players on the defense?

Thanks SuperNomario, I didn't know that about the Rowe deal and it's certainly a factor. I don't think it would hinder BB though if he thought he could better this year's team. Again, we're in Brady's waning years and this team is very close, but does have - or at least appears to have - a couple of holes. I don't think BB is going to allow his team to give up this many points knowing that it will ultimately be its undoing.
Decimating the CB corps seems more likely to make that worse than better.
 

tims4wins

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I think we need to see what the D looks like with DH back and hopefully McClellin before truly evaluating. That said, I am concerned about McClellin
 

DourDoerr

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I hate PPG as a metric (7 points from giving up a 92 yard drive against KC counts the same as 7 points from a Clowney fumble return for TD), especially from a three game sample, but I think the concern would be that a deal might just end up leading to a defense that isnt any more effective, just giving up points in a different way.
Yeah, I can't argue any of that. Although I will say if you have a defense that isn't effective, then there's little point in worrying about it being less effective. My money is on BB being proactive rather than sitting tight if this continues as the sample size expands.
 

TheoShmeo

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Seeing Rowe and Gilmore go out for parts of the game on Sunday was all the reminder I think almost anyone should need that trading Malcolm would be hugely risky. Coach him up or get inside his head, if need be.

As to hoping for an improvement in play when they get McCllellin back, count me as pessimistic. Shea's best moment was arguably on a play that is now illegal (thanks Competition Committee and/or Roger), and he never seemed like a positive difference maker to me last year. He had very few snaps in the SB. Even if that was down to match-ups, did anyone anywhere pine for him to go into that game?
 

lexrageorge

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Is this where we should note that Butler actually played well against Houston. Butler is not the problem here.
 
Nov 24, 2015
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Yeah, I can't argue any of that. Although I will say if you have a defense that isn't effective, then there's little point in worrying about it being less effective.
Unless your defense is giving up 7 points per drive, it is absolutely worth worrying about. You can win in the NFL will a relatively bad defense - you can't really win with a historically bad defense. The Patriots are a relatively bad defense, not a historically bad one.
 

Dogman

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Seeing Rowe and Gilmore go out for parts of the game on Sunday was all the reminder I think almost anyone should need that trading Malcolm would be hugely risky. Coach him up or get inside his head, if need be.

As to hoping for an improvement in play when they get McCllellin back, count me as pessimistic. Shea's best moment was arguably on a play that is now illegal (thanks Competition Committee and/or Roger), and he never seemed like a positive difference maker to me last year. He had very few snaps in the SB. Even if that was down to match-ups, did anyone anywhere pine for him to go into that game?
Rowe was inactive Sunday.