Yeah after that play you could tell Jaylen didn’t come to play. At that point he’s either going to wake up quickly or sleep through the rest of the night. B2B road games can do this as we saw both team play lackadaisical defense the entire night.
2022-2023 General Celtics thread
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
- Start date
I'm going to start by saying I 100% believe that the Jays are a top 3 duo in the league, with an easy argument for #1 pair. I love JB and his game. That being said, a game like last night just shows that JT's floor is a lot higher than JB's. When JB has an off night shooting he generally disappears on offense. Sure he'll grab some boards, but he can't initiate the offense nearly as well as JT. At the start of last season who did the team have to rely on if JB struggled? DS, AN, Richardson? Now you have Brogdon and White. They have covered as many bases as possible and it's amazing to watch
Yeah last year they win this game by Tatum going for 50+, if Brown had an off-day shooting. This year it could be White (like yesterday) or Brogdon, and further down the rotation players like Grant and Hauser can rain a bunch of points while they're on the bench too. So many more options.
Frankly, I think that not having to contribute offensively is going to allow Al to focus more on defense, boards, and passing. He'll still get his spot-up 3s, but he won't have to force anything in the post to fill scoring gaps unless he's really feeling it.
Good shit.
Beyond #Smart3PointShotGate, this is what I’ve been thinking about. 39 bench points on 11 deep! Deeper than that even, in essence, as Horford was out (to say nothing of Part-Time Lord and Gallo). Brown had a bad night? So get 27 from White, and hey, why not another 26 from Brogdon and GWill? Let’s throw in another 9 from Quaid, just for good measure.
Yeah, it’s only three games, but the team already has that Next Man Up feel to it. And everything we’ve been hearing from them off the court seems to support this as well. Makes a team a joy to watch, but also meana a lot of different ways to win, which is pretty fun too.
The defense needs work, to say the least. I think it is too early to be too worried, but it is something that bears watching.
I realize the personnel hasn't been ideal for playing the defense they want to, but the deep drop on the PnR is just a recipe for giving up points to the opposition. Vonleh wasn't in the same area code as some Bulls shooters last night after the wing defender got picked.
I was able to watch only the 2nd half of last night's game but Scal mentioned that they were playing drop coverage with Al too. Scal harped on the Cs PnR defense not being very good.
Here's an issue i see.
As everyone recalls, the switch-heavy scheme that Ime installed last year didn't work very well until they put Rob in the "free safety" spot. In the first half of last season, teams were getting smalls switched on to our bigs and blowing past them and since our bigs were on the perimeter, the offense had free reign to go to the hoop or dump off to an open person. Switching Rob to the "free safety" both allowed him to deter guys who were driving to the rim plus he has such a freakish athleticism, he could get out and contest (and even block) the corner 3P shot.
As much as everyone hated the "2BIGZ"(tm) lineup, having a rim protector plus someone who could bang with bigs plus switch onto smalls (Horford) was a key to the defense in the 2nd half of last year.
Well fast forward, and now not only do the Cs not have a rim protector but they are playing much smaller.
My guess is that Mazzulla knew that the defense wasn't going to be the same, which he wants more offense on the floor and wants the Cs to run more (and get -hopefully - more easy buckets). Even still, last night's defense was pretty off and I'm sure they will be working on PnR defense plus applying more ball pressure on their upcoming days without a game
Yup. Starting White has been nice for the extra ball-handling and perimeter defense (and, surprise surprise, shooting), but it means there's nobody to protect the rim when someone gets beat on the perimeter.
The only person on the roster who could maybe approximate that role would be Kornet, but that's with a heavy and desparing emphasis on "approximate." He can't close out shooters well, he can't guard the perimeter. He is tall, I guess. I'd like to see what he can offer that Vonleh can't at this juncture, because defensively Vonleh really isn't offering terribly much in the way of deterrence at the rim or on the perimeter. It doesn't really matter terribly much, though, as hopefully neither of those guys will be seeing minutes come February.
There have been some calls to trade for Poeltl, but I think he'll be (1) out of our price range and (2) won't really have a role when Rob comes back.
I think this team will mostly blow people off the floor, as presently constructed, so while the defense is a concern, it's a concern manufactured by missing the most crucial defensive piece we have.
I'll push back against the use of everyone up there. The early season defense was actually pretty good, just not as historically good as the 2nd half. We were 7th in DRating overall on Jan 1, 4th on Jan 31. I'm not sure when the switch was made.
I'll also say that I never hated the 2Bigz, it got our best players on the floor.
This years defense has certainly generated poor results. We haven't been bad at defensive rebounding (12th), points in the paint (7th), Fast Break points (2nd), or 2nd chance points (17th). We're 6th in blocks but 28th in steals, both of which surprise me. It seems to me that opponents must have made jump shots at a high rate thus far, and there's a good chance that will normalize.
Al is old and Rob is gimpy. A smart coach gives Poetl plenty of regular season minutes even when both Rob and Al are available. And eventually Poetl is your Al replacement..
According to 538, Ime made the switch on January 15 against CHI.
Maybe you are correct that not everyone was down on the Cs defense (BTW, I have them 10th in DRtg as of 12.25.21) but certainly people were questioning the switch-heavy nature of the scheme, particularly earlier in the season.
I'll grant you that people were probably questioning the offense more (20th as of 12.25.21), particularly that the ball was stopping so much.
To my untrained eye, the D hasn’t been as good as the second half if last year (duh) but there have been glimmers and incidents of them clicking at times. So I have hope.
As far as last night, if you shoot 37% (and that’s after an incredible Q1) and don’t get the rebounds, the other team is going to put up points.
As far as last night, if you shoot 37% (and that’s after an incredible Q1) and don’t get the rebounds, the other team is going to put up points.
This all may be true but I think @Fishy1 is correct in that the Poetl market is going to be well bid, regardless of whether the Cs can offer minutes or not (like you, I think the Cs could easily find a way to get Poetl run). Pretty much every contender can use his skills - they won't all be in on him but most have to be calling.
Yeah, that's really the sticking point here. Add to that that his contract is expiring, and I think if he continues to play the way he has, he'll be looking for a payday.
I get that there would be theoretically minutes for him as Al heads into the twilight of his career, but that ignores that he wouldn't really be a good fit next to Rob. Neither of them can shoot. Part of how the Celtics made two bigz work on offense was by letting Al space the floor. I don't know -- maybe they could figure it out! But my heart tells me someone else will have more money to spend on him or better chips to trade for him.
1. The defense SHOULD be significantly worse without TL so this isn’t surprising.
2. It’s Game 4 and we are seeing everyone’s stuff with their personnel for the first time without much tape. This is akin to how playoff series scores/pace slow down the longer a series goes albeit to a much lesser degree.
3. It’s not even Halloween yet and we are 3-1. This teams season begins mid-April.
2. It’s Game 4 and we are seeing everyone’s stuff with their personnel for the first time without much tape. This is akin to how playoff series scores/pace slow down the longer a series goes albeit to a much lesser degree.
3. It’s not even Halloween yet and we are 3-1. This teams season begins mid-April.
Putting point 1 another way: how good will a team that had "good defense" without TL, a 2nd-team All Defensive player, become when he was added?
Well of course not but there should be a balance to this place being 3-pages of whining after the game which got us to 3-0 prior to the Bulls game.
My main point being that this team isn’t going to be playing 82 games as if the team is down 2-1 in a playoff series. There will be many double digit losses, especially on the road, and against crappy teams too.
It would be weird if the D were rock solid with a new coach, a few new players, and no TL. I think wbcd upthread is onto something about CJM not forcing an identity on the players and figuring it out on the fly. The offense is nails. The D has big upside. It's a little surprising in the dropoff but not all that concerning to me. They'll improve.
3 road games in 4 nights while auditioning Noah Vonleh as the backup BIG.
Is it possible the refs hate him more than Theis? (more likely a step slow after playing in China)
Of all the bad calls last some of the worst were against Vonleh. A couple of them were just laughably horrible..
Every offseason NBA Refs find something they want to STOP. Early in the season, they blow incessant whistles in an overkill move.
Looks like breathing screens (Vonleh/Grant) are fouls + superstar hand gestures (Tatum) will get T'd up to start this year
Yeah seems like any contact at all between the 3pt circle and halfcourt is getting extra attention, which is generally screens but not always. All part of operation "open the game up even more".
I’d let Rob come off the bench and be an impact 15-18 mins a night guy if we got Poeltl. Keep him healthy and make him a monster bench piece for this season.
The funny thing is, the D to start the game against Chicago (when all the starters were in) was very, very good. Even the points CHI got were tough shots.
The problem right now is that, without Rob, the Celtics need to lock in with really consistent effort to play that type of D, and that's very hard to sustain over an NBA regular season. Same goes for rebounding: I'd be less concerned about it in a playoff series, because it's easier to sustain the effort to gang rebound then.
We saw this against Philly in the opener: the team was jacked up, executed on D well against Embiid, and cleaned up the glass.
I'd prefer a more competent backup (or starting?) C just to lower the amount of effort required, but really the worst case here is a slightly worse playoff seed after winning lots of games with offense.
The problem right now is that, without Rob, the Celtics need to lock in with really consistent effort to play that type of D, and that's very hard to sustain over an NBA regular season. Same goes for rebounding: I'd be less concerned about it in a playoff series, because it's easier to sustain the effort to gang rebound then.
We saw this against Philly in the opener: the team was jacked up, executed on D well against Embiid, and cleaned up the glass.
I'd prefer a more competent backup (or starting?) C just to lower the amount of effort required, but really the worst case here is a slightly worse playoff seed after winning lots of games with offense.
Even in the opener, they game up 117 points in regulation - something they only did 7 times in the first 40 games last year (i.e. before their defensive turnaound in early January.) This year they have already done it 3 times, in 4 games.
I agree that a lot of this is fixable and the rest is a matter of getting Rob back, so it is way too early to be hitting the panic button.
But there is still a lot of work to be done.
Took a gander at BRef. The Cs are #1 in 3PAr% and #5 in eFG% (by comparison, last year they were 8th in 3PAr and 9th in eFG%). They are jacking up a ton of 3Ps and making a good portion of them (.387). It will be interesting to see how sustainable this is as some guys are going to get better (JB = 32.1%; MS = 22.7%; and MB = 26.7%) but some guys aren't going to stay this hot (GW = 66.7%; DW = 42.1%; and Horford = 43.8%).
Problem is when they don't hit their 3Ps, it will put a ton of pressure on their defense (i.e., CHI - they were 8-11 in the 1Q but 10-37 the rest of the way).
One good stat: last year they were 13th in TOV% (12.4) but they have cut that down to 11.5, which is 8th in the league.
Problem is when they don't hit their 3Ps, it will put a ton of pressure on their defense (i.e., CHI - they were 8-11 in the 1Q but 10-37 the rest of the way).
One good stat: last year they were 13th in TOV% (12.4) but they have cut that down to 11.5, which is 8th in the league.
Against Chicago, they did the thing a lot of NBA teams do when they hit tons of early 3s: stop executing on both ends because things feel too easy. They only hit 35% in the Philly and Miami wins, so I'm not that concerned about this being a make or miss team (last year's team was really bad about this early on in the season, as was the 20-21 team).
Come on man, that really wasn't whining. If you want that, head to the Pats forum.
Most every team is giving up a ton of points this first week of the season but without peaking at numbers there may not be one giving up more who plays as slow a pace as we do. I’d guess Memphis and Brooklyn would be there with us as teams with these early season issues.
I entered there once without the Hazmat suit. One of the more scarier days I’ve experienced on this board.
Looking at the numbers as a whole is a lot less concerning. Lot of good teams giving up way more points than we are, even GSW.
I was also going to say that the C's appear to be playing with a lot more pace and that might be affecting the PPG, but the numbers so far don't reflect that. Maybe that's because there's a blowout mixed in, I don't know.
Probably too SSS for a lot of conclusions. More data will blend the "blowout" swings.
The rules change eliminating the take foul has to be adding to Pace and positively affecting the scoring. Also, referrers continue to stress freedom of movement which is helping create cleaner looks. All in all, this makes for a better and higher scoring game.
Agreed. Some of the freedom of movement stuff might slide back a bit toward the way that it was, but the take foul is here to stay (thank Christ). Both are definitely factors.
I like that they're not nitpicking too much inside though. Screens and seals closer to the basket seem to be called the same to me, also general handchecking and stuff. Can't complain about the improvements. Might take a while for us to have data that tells us a lot aside from "scoring up".
GSW/Kerr were furious with the REFs last night. Klay got big mad at Booker, and tossed. lots of Ts
I actually wouldn't mind a crackdown on NBA players whining with a T brigade.
Grant and JT, two of my favs, need to knock off complaining after every call. I expect Grant to get a tight whistle for a while after buzzing a female ref.
Keith Smith lets the C's defense really have it. He's usually a very positive voice.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/10/26/23424449/defensive-breakdowns-abound-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-chicago-bulls
https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/10/26/23424449/defensive-breakdowns-abound-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-chicago-bulls
I thought both foul calls were 50/50.
BUT he earned the ejection and suspension. Grant buffoonery
Joe Dumars as disciplinarian reminds me of when Joe Torre had that job in MLB. Maybe LaDainian Tomlinson can be the next one in the NFL.
The contact with the official did not seem fully intentional; more a matter of carelessness . But still, it’s a big no-no, and the punishment fits.
I am more than fine with them reigning in the complaining. But if this is going to be the case, they need to then call the game more fairly in regards to superstars. Embiid can’t be allowed to rag doll Vonleh while he’s driving and Vonleh get the foul. It’s amazing what guys like Embiid and Giannis can do, but with how they are called they can drive in “out of control” and pick up fouls on less physical(so almost all) players for just being in their wingspan. To clean up complaining, they need to cleanup the fouls that cause some of it
My lip reading is not that well developed, but I am pretty sure he shouted "b*tch" as he was headed for the locker room. Not a great look.
I don't get involved in the officiating discussion here much (its the equivalent of yelling at clouds) but imo, if you are seeking consistent and uniform enforcement across the league, you will be disappointed. From my perspective, its a given that superstars and certain bigs will be officiated differently than NBA ham and eggers. It has always been thus...
I like GWill a lot, and I don’t know what he intended. But I am of the mind that high level professional athletes should bear a heightened responsibility for making physical contact with us mere mortals.
*Golf excluded. And pickleball.
*Golf excluded. And pickleball.
I saw that too and cringed. The memo cites language directed at an official. Hopefully this is a learning moment for Grant.