2023 NCAA Womens basketball tournament
- Thread starter BaseballJones
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The Reese/Clark stuff is what it is. Clark doesn't seem bothered by it, so that should probably end the matter. Except that those actions were very much in public and shown on the biggest stage women's basketball has, so it's totally fair to talk about it.
I don't like trash talk - never have - and don't really understand why people do it. But that's just me. I still play tons of basketball with college students and it happens every time I'm on the court, so I get that it's part of the culture for some reason. What's hilarious is that trash talk doesn't really happen elsewhere. Imagine going to work as a bank teller and talking crap to the teller next to you that you're doing a better job than they are. LOL. Anyway, whatever.
I think the interesting question isn't so much about trash talk - it's how far can it go before it actually becomes very unsportsmanlike and, frankly, unacceptable.
A player trash talking during a game is widely considered to be normal and acceptable as part of the game. You make a shot over me, you get to tell me about it. You post me up and dunk over me, you have the right to tell me I'm too small or flex your muscles. You block my shot, you can wag your finger at me.
When the game is over, now we enter different territory. Obviously IMMEDIATELY after the game, it's still kind of in game mode, right? You beat me in a game, and after the last shot goes in, you can yell at me to get off the court. Ok that's fine. But let's say after that, we all head to the water fountain to get a drink. I have to sit and wait a couple of games, while you'll be getting right back on the court to play. We walk over to the fountain, and as I take a drink, you start up with the smack talking again. Now it's no longer in the flow of the game and it's actually like WTF dude, the game is over. Maybe it's still ok because it's "close enough" to the game to be ok? I don't know. Borderline.
But let's say that hoops ends and I run across you on campus later, and you start up again with the smack talking. Then it's like, whoa, wait a minute. What are you doing? At SOME point, it goes from normal, standard, in-the-game stuff that everyone accepts as ok, to being totally unacceptable, right?
Where is that line?
If Reese followed Clark down the tunnel doing that, I think we'd all agree that would be way over the line and wrong under any conditions. Now she didn't do that - that's just a hypothetical. She did do it after the game was over though, right, and purposefully walked over to Clark to put that in her face. If Clark wasn't bothered by it, that's good, but it's still worthwhile to talk about because it could be offensive to many other people. Not that this is the same thing, but using a derogatory or racist term may actually not offend the person you're directing it at, but that doesn't make it okay, and others within earshot may be gravely offended. There were more people "involved" than just Reese and Clark.
So this isn't me saying Reese was wrong, or that she was right. But even within a sports culture that accepts trash talking, there's SOME place where a person could cross the line and move into unacceptable territory. I'm just wondering where it is.
By the way, what's annoying to me is that I didn't get to see the game - I was on the road at the time - so I didn't see how amazing LSU played. Looking at the box score, and seeing some highlights, it looks like they shot the lights out, and they should be commended for their superlative run. I wish I could have seen the game. But the two things I've heard most about the game are the terrible reffing job and the Reese thing. Which is unfortunate, because the focus should be on the game itself.
But since I didn't see the game and THIS is what I've heard most about, it's what I'm commenting on. But congrats to LSU for an amazing championship run. Not a huge Mulkey fan, but she did an amazing job and the players crushed it all tournament long. They were awesome.
I don't like trash talk - never have - and don't really understand why people do it. But that's just me. I still play tons of basketball with college students and it happens every time I'm on the court, so I get that it's part of the culture for some reason. What's hilarious is that trash talk doesn't really happen elsewhere. Imagine going to work as a bank teller and talking crap to the teller next to you that you're doing a better job than they are. LOL. Anyway, whatever.
I think the interesting question isn't so much about trash talk - it's how far can it go before it actually becomes very unsportsmanlike and, frankly, unacceptable.
A player trash talking during a game is widely considered to be normal and acceptable as part of the game. You make a shot over me, you get to tell me about it. You post me up and dunk over me, you have the right to tell me I'm too small or flex your muscles. You block my shot, you can wag your finger at me.
When the game is over, now we enter different territory. Obviously IMMEDIATELY after the game, it's still kind of in game mode, right? You beat me in a game, and after the last shot goes in, you can yell at me to get off the court. Ok that's fine. But let's say after that, we all head to the water fountain to get a drink. I have to sit and wait a couple of games, while you'll be getting right back on the court to play. We walk over to the fountain, and as I take a drink, you start up with the smack talking again. Now it's no longer in the flow of the game and it's actually like WTF dude, the game is over. Maybe it's still ok because it's "close enough" to the game to be ok? I don't know. Borderline.
But let's say that hoops ends and I run across you on campus later, and you start up again with the smack talking. Then it's like, whoa, wait a minute. What are you doing? At SOME point, it goes from normal, standard, in-the-game stuff that everyone accepts as ok, to being totally unacceptable, right?
Where is that line?
If Reese followed Clark down the tunnel doing that, I think we'd all agree that would be way over the line and wrong under any conditions. Now she didn't do that - that's just a hypothetical. She did do it after the game was over though, right, and purposefully walked over to Clark to put that in her face. If Clark wasn't bothered by it, that's good, but it's still worthwhile to talk about because it could be offensive to many other people. Not that this is the same thing, but using a derogatory or racist term may actually not offend the person you're directing it at, but that doesn't make it okay, and others within earshot may be gravely offended. There were more people "involved" than just Reese and Clark.
So this isn't me saying Reese was wrong, or that she was right. But even within a sports culture that accepts trash talking, there's SOME place where a person could cross the line and move into unacceptable territory. I'm just wondering where it is.
By the way, what's annoying to me is that I didn't get to see the game - I was on the road at the time - so I didn't see how amazing LSU played. Looking at the box score, and seeing some highlights, it looks like they shot the lights out, and they should be commended for their superlative run. I wish I could have seen the game. But the two things I've heard most about the game are the terrible reffing job and the Reese thing. Which is unfortunate, because the focus should be on the game itself.
But since I didn't see the game and THIS is what I've heard most about, it's what I'm commenting on. But congrats to LSU for an amazing championship run. Not a huge Mulkey fan, but she did an amazing job and the players crushed it all tournament long. They were awesome.
Could you point to one person here who's "losing their shit" over the distinction in conduct?
I, for one, posted that I found anything Reese did for taunting Clark during the game to be entirely within the trash talking code, but doing so right after the game was both classless, and also a little bizarre to be front-of-mind for her given that her teammates were in the moment of celebrating their championship. And talking shit at press conferences has some limits to what's dignified, which I thought she went beyond. But I wouldn't exactly say I'm "outraged". I like a bit of trash talk, I just think people who are in control and mature keep it between the lines. And as noted several times, if Clark herself thought it went too far, she at least has the sense not to say so publicly after she had a tournament full of cockiness and trash talk.
The same goes for many other players we all root for. Garnett was a legendary trash talker, to the point where he had to apologize for taking it too far a few times. Marcus Smart and others on the Celtics today talk trash all game. Tom Brady revels in it. Find me an example of one of them rubbing opponents' noses in it after the game is over or in a press conference. Closest thing I can think of is Belichick and Freddy Mitchell after the 2004 super bowl.
Black, white, it hasn't mattered. Venus and Serena are too classy for anything like that, Olympic athletes keep it pretty clean for the advertising, and it's not really part of the culture in track and field or swimming so hard to find anyone to point to. The black women basketball players I've rooted for are mostly not very mouthy (and Taurasi is), there's not really a long line of data points to start from. But if you were to go find a time when Taurasi kept after it after the buzzer, I'd say the same about that.
There are a bunch of people in this thread throwing around accusations of bias at their fellow posters, without quoting anything or anyone in particular or distinguishing it from other situations, of which the above is merely one example. And I think that's both shitty posting and frankly more disrespectful than Reese's actions were in the first place. You want to say someone here is acting racist, then come out and name them, but this hiding behind vagueness is bullshit.
The same goes for many other players we all root for. Garnett was a legendary trash talker, to the point where he had to apologize for taking it too far a few times. Marcus Smart and others on the Celtics today talk trash all game. Tom Brady revels in it. Find me an example of one of them rubbing opponents' noses in it after the game is over or in a press conference. Closest thing I can think of is Belichick and Freddy Mitchell after the 2004 super bowl.
Black, white, it hasn't mattered. Venus and Serena are too classy for anything like that, Olympic athletes keep it pretty clean for the advertising, and it's not really part of the culture in track and field or swimming so hard to find anyone to point to. The black women basketball players I've rooted for are mostly not very mouthy (and Taurasi is), there's not really a long line of data points to start from. But if you were to go find a time when Taurasi kept after it after the buzzer, I'd say the same about that.
There are a bunch of people in this thread throwing around accusations of bias at their fellow posters, without quoting anything or anyone in particular or distinguishing it from other situations, of which the above is merely one example. And I think that's both shitty posting and frankly more disrespectful than Reese's actions were in the first place. You want to say someone here is acting racist, then come out and name them, but this hiding behind vagueness is bullshit.
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I wasn't talking about sosh. I was talking about the media outrage and facebook crowd that made a non-story a story and seemed barely able to restrain themselves from using words like "thug" and to the fact that it's a story at all.
As for accusations of bias in sosh posters? Well, my position is that we're all biased and we'd all do well to recognize whether there's a seed of something in distinctions that we're drawing (like after the buzzer or before). In the end, I don't know what's in anyone else's heart and mind. But I think we could all do with some serious self reflection on these issues, and I put myself at the top of this list, which is why I almost always use the word "we" when I discuss these issues. But, for whatever it's worth, I wasn't discussing any specific SOSH poster. Except that I did mention that our ref had made a good point, which I conceded, about why taunting is bad from a ref's perspective.
Reese is also refusing to accept Jill Biden's apology and said LSU didn't let her into the locker room pregame because Biden didn't pick LSU to win the title. So, a lot going on.. lol
Angel Reese: LSU wouldn’t let Jill Biden into its locker room before championship game (msn.com)
Angel Reese: LSU wouldn’t let Jill Biden into its locker room before championship game (msn.com)
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The interesting 'Not my president!' angle. She only went past Trump to the Obamas since DJT's classified documents at his crib were all confiscated by the Feds...
I don't know if Biden is not her president, but Obama definitely is.
View: https://twitter.com/Reese10Angel/status/1642941413796069389
Van Lathan was on the Simmons pod and I think did a really good job articulating why Clark has been so popular. He said most conniesuers of women's basketball understand the mechanics of the game, and the casual fan is bored by the lack of athleticism, but Clark does transcendent things on the court that wow the casual observer. He also said Clark makes males watching think about how she's doing things that they physically could not do, and while male viewers should probably think that more frequently than they do, there is an incredible spectacle to Clark's play that no other woman really has.