Aaron Hernandez Trial (Odin Lloyd)

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joe dokes

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Monbo Jumbo said:
 
 
 
 
 
He answered the question up thread, when he showed he doesn't truly understand what circumstantial evidence is. Circumstantial evidence can build an rock solid case without that single 'a ha' component. People who demand such a component don't get the concept. - in my opinion, of course. 
 
 
Most trials are pretty boring from the outside do not have "a ha" components. "A brick is not a wall," as a trial ad professor told me long ago.  That is usually why I take trial reports with many grains of salt. Its hard to describe, but there is an incalculale difference between seeing even 100% of the testimony on TV and being in the courtroom, only a few feet from the witnesses.
 

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Monbo Jumbo said:
 
 
 
 
 
He answered the question up thread, when he showed he doesn't truly understand what circumstantial evidence is. Circumstantial evidence can build a rock-solid case without that single 'a ha' component. People who demand such a component don't get the concept. - in my opinion, of course. 
 
Maybe--I can't quite figure out if he thinks:
 
a.) I, HRB, am not sure if Hernandez did it or not
b.) The prosecutors haven't proven their case because as some sort of legal matter they need an "a ha" moment
c.) The prosecutors haven't proven their case because it's a celebrity case and as a practical matter you need an "a ha" moment to overcome celebrity
d.) The prosecutor haven't proven their case because I, HRB, will not convict unless I get an "a ha" moment
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Maybe I'm not getting exactly what HRB means by an "a ha" moment, but I assume some kind of incontrovertible evidence is what he's looking for. If the prosecution had that in their pocket, would there have even been a trial? Seems the defense would have tried to plea it down, no? There's the possibility that a plea wasn't offered of course, but absent that, would they have gone to trial if they had something that made it a certain conviction? 
 

HomeRunBaker

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NortheasternPJ said:
 
Serious question. What do you need in order to make the jump?  This is a very different line for everyone so I'm interested in what you've seen so far that puts this beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
Do you think AH didn't actually do it or is it an issue of the prosecution in this case so far hasn't proved it in court and you're excluding everything else we allegedly know as if you're a juror?
 
The gun? Someone to flip on him? A confession? A video of him shooting Lloyd?
 
IANAL but my understanding is that the prosecution doesn't even have to prove the Sweetleaf pulled the trigger. If he knew they were going to pick him up for one of his boys to shoot him, that's good enough. 
I certainly believe AH is as guilty as they come as I've stated. I'm trying to place myself as a juror with the burden on the jury to prove AH guilty which are two very different things.

Is it reasonable that AH called everyone together to discuss something or to bang out some drugs and they park down on the trail? AH says hold on I gotta take a leak and goes on the other side of the car. While that's happening Hobo says yo guys come hear I wanna show you something.....bang bang!! AH turned around wondering wtf just happened.

Would this scenario or something similar where AH has no idea a criminal act be reasonable? To me, as a juror, the burden is on the prosecution to prove that this is NOT a scenario that could have occurred. I'm waiting.

Edit: I'm sure glad Monbo wasn't on the jury for my murder trial.
;)
 

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Is it reasonable that AH called everyone together to discuss something or to bang out some drugs and they park down on the trail? AH says hold on I gotta take a leak and goes on the other side of the car. While that's happening Hobo says yo guys come hear I wanna show you something.....bang bang!! AH turned around wondering wtf just happened.

Would this scenario or something similar where AH has no idea a criminal act be reasonable? To me, as a juror, the burden is on the prosecution to prove that this is NOT a scenario that could have occurred. I'm waiting.
Orenthal, is that you?
 

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NortheasternPJ said:
He means like 56 minutes into a Law and Order episode.
Where wily Jack McCoy gets the defendant to implicate himself on the witness stand.
 
Which is why defendants seldom testify.
 
As my wife can attest, to the many times I've yelled at the TV, "HE WOULDN'T BE FUCKING TESTIFYING ANYWAY"
 

JimBoSox9

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HomeRunBaker said:
Is it reasonable that AH called everyone together to discuss something or to bang out some drugs and they park down on the trail? AH says hold on I gotta take a leak and goes on the other side of the car. While that's happening Hobo says yo guys come hear I wanna show you something.....bang bang!! AH turned around wondering wtf just happened.

Would this scenario or something similar where AH has no idea a criminal act be reasonable? To me, as a juror, the burden is on the prosecution to prove that this is NOT a scenario that could have occurred. I'm waiting.
 
 
That's one wily hobo, wiping his footprints out before decamping.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
I certainly believe AH is as guilty as they come as I've stated. I'm trying to place myself as a juror with the burden on the jury to prove AH guilty which are two very different things.

Is it reasonable that AH called everyone together to discuss something or to bang out some drugs and they park down on the trail? AH says hold on I gotta take a leak and goes on the other side of the car. While that's happening Hobo says yo guys come hear I wanna show you something.....bang bang!! AH turned around wondering wtf just happened.

Would this scenario or something similar where AH has no idea a criminal act be reasonable? To me, as a juror, the burden is on the prosecution to prove that this is NOT a scenario that could have occurred. I'm waiting.

Edit: I'm sure glad Monbo wasn't on the jury for my murder trial.
;)
 
Hey, I want you on my juries!
 
Yes, the scenario you're proposing is possible.  Another scenario (far more likely than yours) is that Wallace or Ortiz just flipped out and unloaded on OL, without AH having any idea what was going to happen.  However, the prosecutor will argue is that the state has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond all doubt.  So far fetched theories shouldn't carry weight.  For example, it's also possible that Ortiz was just showing OL his gun and it randomly went off five times.  I doubt a jury acquits on that theory though. Juries can and should rely on their common sense. 
 
This is part of why the shoe/tire impressions are so important, btw - if this happened in an urban environment, there would always be the question of whether OL was shot by some random last minute interloper (hobo theory).  The gravel/dirt/surveillance videos preclude that type of scenario. 
 
Jury instructions for purely circumstantial cases in MA:
 
If the Commonwealth’s case is based solely on circumstantial evidence, you may find the defendant guilty only if those circumstances are conclusive enough to leave you with a moral certainty, a clear and settled belief, that the defendant is guilty and that there is no other reasonable explanation of the facts as proven. The evidence must not only be consistent with the defendant’s guilt, it must be inconsistent with his (her) innocence. 
 
MA caselaw on that could be tricky though - OL's body is direct evidence of an unlawful killing by another, but the fact that the killer was AH (or that AH was a joint venturer in the killing) seems to be circumstantial at this point. 
 
Here, the "Wallace/Ortiz randomly flipped out" scenario is undercut by AH's actions before, during, and after the killing.  It's up to the jury to decide whether they have a "clear and settled belief" in AH's guilt.
 
Also, the jury will want to know why AH didn't just say that from the beginning, or tell the police one of his friends murdered another one in cold blood, right before his eyes.  Technically, that's shifting the burden to the defense (i.e., making the defense prove something), but juries are human.  They're not going to give the "flip out" scenario a lot of weight in closing if it hasn't been raised and developed throughout the trial.  
 

crystalline

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In addition Hernandez is going to be tried for the South End murders after this. In that case there is a murder weapon traced to Hernandez, security cam video of Hernandez a few minutes before, and a witness who can partially identify Hernandez as the shooter. With this, plus the weapons charges do we really think he's likely to ever walk free?


I found the jailhouse call transcripts interesting. It seems like the family wall is not as strong as portrayed. AH promised trust funds for Tanya Singletons kids that he never created, and Shayanna seems pretty spooked. She said she expected him back before 20 years from now. Good luck.

A Bristol witness testified AH's baby was called "Princess". Under questioning he said some people called Shayanna "Princess" too, but he didn't. Sounds like some of AH's crowd didnt like her. If she's called that could be explosive.
 

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Rovin Romine said:
 
I understand what you're saying.   However, sometimes college provides you with different models - or dedicated programs of activity with good role models.  The NFL has the potential to be that.  Whether it is and to what degree is another discussion. 
 
I don't think it's as simple as "once on a bad path - always there."   At least not in this case.  It's not like AH was just handed a ton of cash - he earned it in an elite environment.  
You're not getting that wholesome alternative environment at Florida, or in many other powerhouse programs. You are coddled and protected for as long as you are useful to the team. The campus police and local police cover for you, to the extent that you think you have the Teflon of a drug lord in Mexico. The law of no consequences eventually leads to predictable consequences.

Yes, the NFL is the 800 lb gorilla, but none of its teams have law enforcement as a wholly owned subsidiary.

What's scary is that with all of their resources, in the face of acknowledged red flags, the Pats could not dig nearly deep enough on AH. Hell, BB's "friend" Meyer probably vouched for him.
 

Ralphwiggum

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What is scary about it? Hernandez is an extreme outlier even by the standards of a league that tolerates a fairly high degree of shitty behavior by its players. How do you screen for that?
 

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For the SoSh Lawyers:  Is it possible the Prosecutors have no idea whether Shayanna will speak freely or clam up  / claim she can't remember?  Would they give her immunity without her ever telling them information that would incriminate AH? 
 
I was told by a defense lawyer friend a while ago that he never would ask a question of his client or his witness he did not already know how that person would answer.  The Rhode Islander (everyone is dirty somehow) in me is wondering if AH's thug buddies have not reached out and reminded her she will pay a price if she turns on AH on record.
 
I read this SI article and it is a pretty good primer (at least to this layman) but I was just curious if the Prosecutors would risk not knowing what she will do today and still call her to the stand.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/03/26/aaron-hernandez-murder-trial-shayanna-jenkins-testimony-friday-odin-lloyd
 
edit:  She is wearing the engagement ring going in.. so I think she is sticking by her man. 
Adam Liberatore ‏@bostonTVguy 22m22 minutes ago Fall River, MA
@fox25news Shayanna Jenkins, #AaronHernandez fiancée, showing up to take the stand today. #FOX25
 
 

NortheasternPJ

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Sounds like they removed a juror and have questioned 4 of them.
 
RR, any idea what this could be about?
 

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norm from cheers said:
For the SoSh Lawyers:  Is it possible the Prosecutors have no idea whether Shayanna will speak freely or clam up  / claim she can't remember?  Would they give her immunity without her ever telling them information that would incriminate AH? 
 
I was told by a defense lawyer friend a while ago that he never would ask a question of his client or his witness he did not already know how that person would answer.  The Rhode Islander (everyone is dirty somehow) in me is wondering if AH's thug buddies have not reached out and reminded her she will pay a price if she turns on AH on record.
 
I read this SI article and it is a pretty good primer (at least to this layman) but I was just curious if the Prosecutors would risk not knowing what she will do today and still call her to the stand.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/03/26/aaron-hernandez-murder-trial-shayanna-jenkins-testimony-friday-odin-lloyd
 
 
This is a good maxim. One I often repeat. In reality though, there's wiggle room, and there are exceptions.  
 
It breaks down like this.  Basically you don't want a witness doing anything to hurt your case.  However, if they're hostile to your case, the other side will find a way to elicit "bad facts" for your side.  So as an advocate, you have to accept the fact that the hostile witness is going to try to burn you.  The "bad facts" will come out.  So what do you do?  
 
Well, there are some facts that the witness just can't go into - they're prohibited.  So you're careful not to "open the door" and ask questions that go to those facts.  (Say, OL was convicted of income tax evasion - the court would correctly rule that such a thing can't be put in front of a jury.)  You've got to be (as an advocate) aware of where the witness *could* go, and be quick with your objections.  Once a jury hears something, they hear it. 
 
Beyond the prohibited, there are other facts that might be bad, will come in, but could be further fleshed out by the witness if they're given an opportunity.  So you don't blindly inquire or ask open ended questions in dangerous areas.  It's a license for the witness to blab on and on.  So your inquiry has to be focused.  You have to balance this focus with not appearing too "lawyerly" in overly narrowing the questions - or, more colloquially, trying to bamboozle the jury by dancing around "the real" issues.  The other side will just flesh out anything you're dancing around.  IMO, this makes some attorneys too timid on cross (the most common way of questioning a hostile witness) - they think that as long as *they* don't elicit the bad info, it's OK.  In reality, looking like an obstructionist and serving up a softball for redirect can often be more damaging.
 
In terms of "pushing back" at the hostile witness's bad facts, you have several options.   You can elicit contradictory testimony from other witnesses.  You can point out inconsistencies in the testimony of the hostile witness.  You can ask questions that show bias/agenda on part of the hostile witness.  They love the victim, they hate the defendant, they were a victim themselves, they're overreaching or coloring the facts, they have something to gain, etc. You can also play emotional issues.  (For example, in some cases, the more hostile the hostile witness acts, the more respectful you become - then you argue to the jury the witness showed overt bias/hostility toward *you alone* and are not to be trusted, even though their testimony appeared smooth and consistent, it was really too smooth and too hostile.) 
 
In those situations, you don't know exactly what the witness will say, word for word.  So you have to be informed and flexible in terms of dragging up counter arguments, eliciting other facts, cementing certain things in the testimony, being ready to impeach bases on what the witness has said before, etc.   This is why cross (or, more broadly, handling a hostile witness in front of a jury) is a skill. A very information intensive one - for a well prepped attorney, an excellently conducted cross might only implicate %5 of what the attorney knows about the witnesses' potential testimony.  The measure of a good cross is the relation of that percentage to the percentage of potentially useful information, balanced against any damage to your cause that the cross might let in.  You try to get what you can, while not sinking your case.  (If your case is sunk already, you get more aggressive, if the case is won already, you'll be more conservative.)
 
A better maxim would be "don't solicit an answer (whatever it is) that you don't need, or can't somehow use."
 
***
This prosecutor did pretty well with the aunt who couldn't remember (name escapes me at the moment.)  He'll have to up his game for Jenkins though, who may have logged over 40 hours practicing how to face a cross with her attorney (who is a defense attorney and likely knows the ins and outs of cross.)
 

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NortheasternPJ said:
Sounds like they removed a juror and have questioned 4 of them.
 
RR, any idea what this could be about?
 
My guess is that one juror heard another female juror say something.  So the listening juror sent the judge a note.  The judge then questioned that juror and got the full scoop.  The judge then individually questioned the remaining jurors to see if the jury has been tainted - to find out who heard what, and if individual jurors can still be fair and impartial. 
 
It's not everyday, but it's not entirely uncommon to see.  Usually it happens when a witness or relative shouts out something to the jury in the hallway, or comes up to a juror in the bathroom. 
 
*Edits
1 - tweets say this may be related to the bomb threat
2 - both male and female jurors questioned
3 - not all the jurors were questioned (which argues against the bomb threat)
 
​We are now onto the defense and prosecution arguing over the scope of Jenkins' testimony today.
 

NortheasternPJ

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I wish they could just ask the witness the questions instead of asking the judge and the judge answering for her and telling us what they jury should think or the judge just assuming the witness won't answer the question.
 

OCST

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Rovin Romine said:
 
My guess is that one juror heard another female juror say something.  So the listening juror sent the judge a note.  The judge then questioned that juror and got the full scoop.  The judge then individually questioned the remaining jurors to see if the jury has been tainted - to find out who heard what, and if individual jurors can still be fair and impartial. 
 
It's not everyday, but it's not entirely uncommon to see.  Usually it happens when a witness or relative shouts out something to the jury in the hallway, or comes up to a juror in the bathroom. 
 
*Edits
1 - tweets say this may be related to the bomb threat
2 - both male and female jurors questioned
3 - not all the jurors were questioned (which argues against the bomb threat)
 
​We are now onto the defense and prosecution arguing over the scope of Jenkins' testimony today.
 
Wouldn't the courthouse be laid out to prevent casual contact between jurors and the gen pop?
 

Rovin Romine

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OilCanShotTupac said:
 
Wouldn't the courthouse be laid out to prevent casual contact between jurors and the gen pop?
 
Usually.  Not always though.  Sometimes juries get their lunch in the same cafeteria as the attorneys and witnesses.  
 

NortheasternPJ

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I was on a trial at Lawtown Superior last summer and it was hard to avoid running into the defendant, lawyers etc. We had our own bathroom, but we ran into witnesses and everyone left and right. 
 

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NortheasternPJ said:
I wish they could just ask the witness the questions instead of asking the judge and the judge answering for her and telling us what they jury should think or the judge just assuming the witness won't answer the question.
 
This is kind of esoteric.  There are a lot of interlocking issues here.  Basically, the state can't solicit an answer they know is a lie.   The defense (as far as I can tell) is arguing that she's only being called to be impeached (shown to be a liar).  The state is saying this is her opportunity to tell the truth.  There's also an issue of conspiracy/co-venturer conversations (hearsay or not).  
 
It's sort of a mess.  But the idea is for the judge to suss all this out before something happens at trial that might be reversible error.  
 

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Monbo Jumbo said:
 
He answered the question up thread, when he showed he doesn't truly understand what circumstantial evidence is. Circumstantial evidence can build a rock-solid case without that single 'a ha' component. People who demand such a component don't get the concept. - in my opinion, of course. 
 
Right, and why I find a lot of legal shows laugh out loud funny when a lawyer on the show exclaims "but you only have circumstantial evidence against my client!"
 
 

Rovin Romine said:
Jenkins being voir dired now.  Edit - Goddamnit Corsi!
 
There is no beating the speed of Corsi-bot.
 

NortheasternPJ

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I love the story after he gets back from the station:
 
"Hey Odin was murdered. Did you do it?"
"No"
 
The fact that the first thought of hers was that this guy is murdered was to ask him if he did it, not shock their friend is dead or anything. Then he says no, it's just not discussed any further. 
 
In what world does that even sound plausible? We've had friends die etc. (not murdered) and nothing else is discussed for days. 
 

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Rapid blinking, swallowing, brow scrunching, very very quick with the answers, those answers are pretty slick also.  One should not rapidly snap off an "I don't recall."  
 

Rovin Romine

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GeorgeCostanza said:
Even a dumbass like me is picking up on this loud and clear.
 
 
Maybe she'll get over her body language issues in front of the jury - the voir dire is kind of a dry run for her.    She's putting out more than one "I believe so, yes" responses - so clearly there's a CYA factor here.  Even though she has immunity.  Which indicates to me she's going to lie as much as she can, while covering herself.  And she's way way too fast in answering questions that have possibly complex answers.  
 

Jnai

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RR, knowing nothing about this, was it a mistake to charge her for perjury in advance of this testimony? It seems like a lot of possible places where she could fuck up are being excluded because the state is already charging her with lying about those things.
 

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Jnai said:
RR, knowing nothing about this, was it a mistake to charge her for perjury in advance of this testimony? It seems like a lot of possible places where she could fuck up are being excluded because the state is already charging her with lying about those things.
 
This is what I was thinking as well. Why charge her then? Why not wait until now and have her make an ass out herself in front of a jury?
 
Could they just drop the perjury charges now?
 

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I haven't watched much of this live, but this prosecutor is not the best at leading a direct exam. Maybe he's off his game because of the limitations the judge has placed, her involvement in the amount of latitude he gets, etc. But this is not seamless. Several times she's given an answer and he's sort of just randomly left the topic and starts something else. Gives off the impression that he's getting answers he doesn't expect. Which is not ideal on direct. Granted you don't get to lead, but you still have a better sense of direction than this on direct. 
 
Am I missing something RR, or is this guy just having difficulty with this style witness?
 

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Jnai said:
RR, knowing nothing about this, was it a mistake to charge her for perjury in advance of this testimony? It seems like a lot of possible places where she could fuck up are being excluded because the state is already charging her with lying about those things.
 
This is an excellent point.  The state most likely charged her in the hopes she would flip on AH to get out from under her own criminal liability.  Which is sort of standard practice.
 
(Keep in mind that Jenkins could have invoked the fifth whether or not the state formally charged her with anything.  So immunity would likely have had to be granted, regardless.)  
 
The issue of the state soliciting false testimony (vis a vis her grand jury testimony) isn't dependent on the perjury charges being brought.  Although, I'm not sure how the defense would say that the state was soliciting false testimony *unless* the state had charged her with perjury.  So we're back to your point about the effect in this trial of charging her with perjury. 
 
It doesn't seem like a pure blunder on the state's part.  But there are consequences.  
 
Edit - not ignoring you NEPJ, but I think this covers it.  Dropping the charges at this point won't affect the issue.  Excellent strategic thought though. 
 

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PaulinMyrBch said:
I haven't watched much of this live, but this prosecutor is not the best at leading a direct exam. Maybe he's off his game because of the limitations the judge has placed, her involvement in the amount of latitude he gets, etc. But this is not seamless. Several times she's given an answer and he's sort of just randomly left the topic and starts something else. Gives off the impression that he's getting answers he doesn't expect. Which is not ideal on direct. Granted you don't get to lead, but you still have a better sense of direction than this on direct. 
 
Am I missing something RR, or is this guy just having difficulty with this style witness?
I think he was limited to the issues raised by the defense on voir dire.  There were obvious follow up or related questions he did not ask.  We'll see how he does in front of the jury.  
 

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PaulinMyrBch said:
I haven't watched much of this live, but this prosecutor is not the best at leading a direct exam. Maybe he's off his game because of the limitations the judge has placed, her involvement in the amount of latitude he gets, etc. But this is not seamless. Several times she's given an answer and he's sort of just randomly left the topic and starts something else. Gives off the impression that he's getting answers he doesn't expect. Which is not ideal on direct. Granted you don't get to lead, but you still have a better sense of direction than this on direct. 
 
Am I missing something RR, or is this guy just having difficulty with this style witness?
 
Would he be keeping his powder dry until the jury comes in?
 
No idea, just spitballing.
 

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Rovin Romine said:
I think he was limited to the issues raised by the defense on voir dire.  There were obvious follow up or related questions he did not ask.  We'll see how he does in front of the jury.  
 
There is probably also an element of not tipping his hand to a coached witness.  The prosecutor's goal in voir dire is not the same as when she's in front of the jury.
 

Jnai

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Obviously haven't followed closely enough, why all the stuff about the car?
 

Rovin Romine

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Jnai said:
Obviously haven't followed closely enough, why all the stuff about the car?
The prosecution's theory is that the car was used to ship guns from FL to MA.   'Cause when you drive a black hummer and an audi, and rent dozens of cars, it makes sense to buy a used honda from FL.
 

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NortheasternPJ said:
It must be tough to be so dumb that you can't remember if your fiance has more than one car.
No shit.  I get that's she's under a bit of stress, but struggling to remember the color of a car?  How long she's lived at a current address?  This is painful as hell.
 
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