Alcohol and Athletes; Gronk's injuries in a 16 oz can

[H78]

To be clear, my problem with your original post is not that it was aggressive nor that it was negative about my hometown hero. My problem with your original post is that it was worded very poorly and that it makes many jumps of logic.

Want to break it down?



In my opinion, alcohol consumption may be a factor in his injury history, but if it is a factor it is a really tiny factor. The fact that football is a very violent sport is probably the biggest contributor to his injury history.



You say that one or two beers over the course of a week can severely impact that athlete's hydration levels and you imply that this impact to the athlete's hydration levels based on one or two beers consumed perhaps five nights prior will be a big contributor to the athlete's propensity to become injured.

You are making like five leaps of logic here. Does the impact of one or two beers over the course of a week directly impact the hydration levels of an athlete on game day? Maybe. If so, how much does the beer consumption impact the athlete's hydration levels on game date? Further, how much of an impact will the athlete's hydration levels have on the athlete's propensity to be injured during the game?

You're asking unfair questions, which I mentioned to someone else before, by asking me to prove exactly how much alcohol can have an effect on hydration levels come game day for NFL players. I couldn't possibly provide that type of extremely-detailed evidence because unfortunately the NFL likely isn't going to let me run this type of study on their players before a game day anytime soon.

All I can do is provide evidence of how alcohol can affect performance and recovery for athletes. Which I've done.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Did you read either of these posts?

The first quote you cited an article that illustrates something that nobody here disagrees with. Alcohol affects performance and recovery. The point people disagree with is that alcohol is directly linked - even if playing a minor role - to Gronk's injuries.

You actually do address this point in your second quote:

From everything I've ever read (and experienced over more than a decade of natural bodybuilding), dehydration caused by anything - excessive caffeine intake, alcohol consumption, poor water intake, or a combination of all of the above - can have a direct effect on musculoskeletal health throughout the entirety of the human body.

Your point here is that alcohol could be linked to Gronk's back issues. If that's your point, do you have any literature at all that supports this theory (you did say you've read up on this particular issue in your first sentence), or is it really just based off of...I dunno, the way you feel when you work out?

 

[H78]

The first quote you cited an article that illustrates something that nobody here disagrees with. Alcohol affects performance and recovery. The point people disagree with is that alcohol is directly linked - even if playing a minor role - to Gronk's injuries.

You actually do address this point in your second quote:



Your point here is that alcohol could be linked to Gronk's back issues. If that's your point, do you have any literature at all that supports this theory (you did say you've read up on this particular issue in your first sentence), or is it really just based off of...I dunno, the way you feel when you work out?

Will this hold you over, or am I going to have to cite one of the other 8,000,000+ Google results?

Actually, that's kind of vague, and maybe young people don't apply.

Maybe this is helpful:

Spinal Health and the Case for Abstaining From Alcohol

As with nearly everything else in life, moderation generally seems to be the key when it comes to alcohol. Even so, there are some situations related to bone and joint health where even moderate drinking may be a bad idea. While doctors are not certain why, alcohol seems to aggravate certain spinal conditions such as facet disease, herniated discs, degenerative disc disease and foraminal stenosis. The symptoms of these same conditions often appear to improve when alcohol is eliminated entirely. For this reason, people who suffer from back pain may want to consider avoiding alcohol altogether.

Then again, that's from a chiropractor's website (it was like the 6th Google result), and we all know chiropractors are flimsy, at best.

Actually, just check this out.

 

[tims4wins]

I object to the thread title. Gronk clearly doesn't drink beer that comes in 16oz cans.

 

[Bergs]

Actually, just check this out.

That's pretty well-played. Having read the entire conversation, I didn't think you had it in you.

That said, your initiation of this topic was needlessly strident, and your reactions to people busting your balls over it has been a master class in deflection and self-pity.

I'm gonna go get a beer now. Cheers!

 

[Reverend]

So if Gronk was a teetotaler he wouldn't have torn his knee up, fractured his back, or broken his arm? Is there a study that shows drinking beers in your 20s causes osteoporosis?

Yes.

Was that a rhetorical question? I mean, it's almost kinda funny if you think about it.

 

[Reverend]

This thread is a pretty good example of why some people who actually know stuff just keep their heads down rather than bothering to say their piece.

The board would be better if this happened, not just because this crap is annoying, but because it dissuades people with expertise from participating. I'm not saying H78 has expertise, but I know enough about some of this to know that he's taking a beating in areas that he shouldn't, and I know firsthand from some people who would be awesome posters that some of them just don't want to deal with this kind of bullshit.

Read through this thread slowly and I think you'll see H78 is being subjected to some really serious bullshit--my favorite part was him being accused of having issues with alcohol when his avatar is a brewery label.

 

[Reverend]

It's actually a good BLTS candidate, as a lot of people that regularly post in there could probably offer more insight into the correlation between alcohol and athletic performance.

Well, the problem is this is whip-sawwed between two issues:

1. The specific effects we have observed of Gronk's drinking on Gronk.
2. The effects of drinking in general on athletics, fitness, and health.

There is a lot of baby-bathwater stuff going on here with the two issues that are making what could be two interesting conversations into one shitty one.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Will this hold you over, or am I going to have to cite one of the other 8,000,000+ Google results?

Actually, that's kind of vague, and maybe young people don't apply.

Maybe this is helpful:


Then again, that's from a chiropractor's website (it was like the 6th Google result), and we all know chiropractors are flimsy, at best.

You made the argument. It's not on me to disprove your opinion, it's on you to support it.

I'll repeat, I'm unsure why you opted for deflection instead of defending your point. I think if you had sourced the above content several hours ago, it would have gone a long way to driving conversation instead of rhetoric. It doesn't seem like you had much interest in a genuine conversation, however.

This thread is a pretty good example of why some people who actually know stuff just keep their heads down rather than bothering to say their piece.

The board would be better if this happened, not just because this crap is annoying, but because it dissuades people with expertise from participating. I'm not saying H78 has expertise, but I know enough about some of this to know that he's taking a beating in areas that he shouldn't, and I know firsthand from some people who would be awesome posters that some of them just don't want to deal with this kind of bullshit.

Read through this thread slowly and I think you'll see H78 is being subjected to some really serious bullshit--my favorite part was him being accused of having issues with alcohol when his avatar is a brewery label.

Expecting someone to support their opinion doesn't feel like a big leap. If you're talking about other posters, cool. But wanting someone to support their opinion when it gets challenged kind of feels like the bedrock of message boarding.

 

[Reverend]

To be clear, my problem with your original post is not that it was aggressive nor that it was negative about my hometown hero. My problem with your original post is that it was worded very poorly and that it makes many jumps of logic.

Want to break it down?

See? Now this is constructive!

In my opinion, alcohol consumption may be a factor in his injury history,

Good... good...

but if it is a factor it is a really tiny factor. The fact that football is a very violent sport is probably the biggest contributor to his injury history.

Shit--now it's all fucked up.

This is really, really common these days, but refuting the logical leaps of one argument does not in turn justify leaps in the opposite direction.

This is all probablistic. Saying it's a tiny factor is not saying the same as you don't know. Indeed, it's possible that it's not likely a big factor, but if it is a factor, then it is big. That is a legit possibility that is also not allowed in the way expressed above. Even saying "probably" isn't great, because we don't know.

H78 made a logicaly leap. An incorrect logical leap in one direction does not justify one in the opposite direction.

 

[Reverend]

Expecting someone to support their opinion doesn't feel like a big leap. If you're talking about other posters, cool. But wanting someone to support their opinion when it gets challenged kind of feels like the bedrock of message boarding.

Do you believe this to be a constructive inquiry into the truths of our day?

In some of the areas he has been aggressively challenged where I think I know something, I wouldn't bother defending myself either.

I mean, we do have a bunch of doctor types around here. Would it kill people to wait a bit and let them chime in when they get a chance? Or, hey, we could even ask questions or look shit up and shit on our own until the grownups finish their rounds and stuff.

 

[moretsyndrome]

Has anyone suggested Gronk take NAC before his hypothetical two beers a week?

 

[Reverend]

Has anyone suggested Gronk take NAC before his hypothetical two beers a week?

Dunno. I know he has his hydration covered, because he has publicly noted that that's why he drinks vodka and water--the water lets you hydrate white you drink alcohol!

I love this story because it suggests that Gronk has never, ever wondered what's in a vodka tonic.

 

[moretsyndrome]

Dunno. I know he has his hydration covered, because he has publicly noted that that's why he drinks vodka and water--the water lets you hydrate white you drink alcohol!

I love this story because it suggests that Gronk has never, ever wondered what's in a vodka tonic.

It does more than suggest it!

 

[H78]

In some of the areas he has been aggressively challenged where I think I know something, I wouldn't bother defending myself either.

This is why, until this thread, I've refrained from it.

I have seen, repeatedly, for over a decade, how alcohol affects athletic performance. In particular, with weightlifters and collegiate baseball players, both of which are groups I've been a part of and spent a lot of time around at various points in my life.

Both as a weightlifter/bodybuilder and as a collegiate baseball player I was always at my worse when alcohol - even small amounts - was mixed into that lifestyle. I tore my right flexor tendon pitching the day after having a couple of beers with friends. I tore my left calf - despite being in probably the absolute best shape of my life at 30 years old - while running two days after having just a few beers with friends. The calf tear actually led to a pulmonary embolism that nearly killed me, and while talking to my doctor (who specializes in sports medicine) after I recovered from both the tear and the PE he mentioned that virtually any alcohol consumption before any vigorous activity has an effect on muscle contractions and makes them much more susceptible to tears, which is probably why I suffered my tear.

He also mentioned that as your body recovers, any additional alcohol consumption could affect blood flow to the area and limit nutritional intake necessary for a complete recovery.

After I learned all of that it dawned on me that anytime I'd ever gone through long bouts of abstaining from alcohol, I'd never suffered any injuries of any sort. Baseball, weightlifting, etc - no booze, no major injuries. I've put that to the test several times since I tore my calf - abstaining from alcohol and focusing more on water intake for 4, 5 months at a time - and throughout those breaks I've suffered zero injuries.

The reason I'm bringing this up is since the PE and feedback from my physician I've focused heavily on researching and practicing proper hydration techniques (I should own stock in LyteShow) and it's resulted in zero injuries despite being a little older and setting a lot of PRs as a natural lifter the last couple of years.

Honestly, everything Brady's been saying about nutrition and hydration the last couple of years has only made me love the man more. He's breaking ground on things that make total sense to me and I truly believe he's going to revolutionize the way professional athletes approach nutrition and conditioning for their respective sports.

But, anyways, I would have shared this all a long time ago, but alas, I don't sport the Flying Elvis, I'm not in the NFL, and my story isn't "LINKED!!!", so I already know no one would want to hear it. It'd be treated as entirely anecdotal, and maybe that's true. It's the nature of this board; what you've learned personally doesn't matter because there's no way your athletic demands can even be close to that of an NFL player.

Gronk's injury history and body type has always caught my attention because he clearly uses a bodybuilder routine, mixes that with drinking, but also plays in the NFL, and I know that being exposed to just those first two elements together (nevermind actually playing in the NFL) is enough to make you more susceptible to injury.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Do you believe this to be a constructive inquiry into the truths of our day?

In some of the areas he has been aggressively challenged where I think I know something, I wouldn't bother defending myself either.

I mean, we do have a bunch of doctor types around here. Would it kill people to wait a bit and let them chime in when they get a chance? Or, hey, we could even ask questions or look shit up and shit on our own until the grownups finish their rounds and stuff.

Or, like, when somebody makes what is obviously a controversial statement to a group of people who disagree, they could, like, defend it.

No. When the person I disagree with opts to provide no support for their argument, I don't feel like the onus is on me to spend time researching their point for them. Every one of my posts was focused on receiving any type of evidence to his statement. Feel free to chastise the rest of the class - including the mod of this forum - but, no, I don't think me asking him to provide support for his statement was the reason all the super smart people don't waste their time on SoSH.

 

[H78]

But I did provide it. You just wanted more for some reason.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

But I did provide it. You just wanted more for some reason.

The injuries that sidelined Gronk were largely not muscle related. You did, much later, provide support that corroborates your hypothesis regarding a correlation between alcohol and spine/back degeneration. That was the sticking point for most people here. Its something I think most people are unaware of (I certainly wasn't aware).

 

[streeter88]

This is why, until this thread, I've refrained from it.

I have seen, repeatedly, for over a decade, how alcohol affects athletic performance. In particular, with weightlifters and collegiate baseball players, both of which are groups I've been a part of and spent a lot of time around at various points in my life.

Both as a weightlifter/bodybuilder and as a collegiate baseball player I was always at my worse when alcohol - even small amounts - was mixed into that lifestyle. I tore my right flexor tendon pitching the day after having a couple of beers with friends. I tore my left calf - despite being in probably the absolute best shape of my life at 30 years old - while running two days after having just a few beers with friends. The calf tear actually led to a pulmonary embolism that nearly killed me, and while talking to my doctor (who specializes in sports medicine) after I recovered from both the tear and the PE he mentioned that virtually any alcohol consumption before any vigorous activity has an effect on muscle contractions and makes them much more susceptible to tears, which is probably why I suffered my tear.

He also mentioned that as your body recovers, any additional alcohol consumption could affect blood flow to the area and limit nutritional intake necessary for a complete recovery.

After I learned all of that it dawned on me that anytime I'd ever gone through long bouts of abstaining from alcohol, I'd never suffered any injuries of any sort. Baseball, weightlifting, etc - no booze, no major injuries. I've put that to the test several times since I tore my calf - abstaining from alcohol and focusing more on water intake for 4, 5 months at a time - and throughout those breaks I've suffered zero injuries.

The reason I'm bringing this up is since the PE and feedback from my physician I've focused heavily on researching and practicing proper hydration techniques (I should own stock in LyteShow) and it's resulted in zero injuries despite being a little older and setting a lot of PRs as a natural lifter the last couple of years.

Honestly, everything Brady's been saying about nutrition and hydration the last couple of years has only made me love the man more. He's breaking ground on things that make total sense to me and I truly believe he's going to revolutionize the way professional athletes approach nutrition and conditioning for their respective sports.

But, anyways, I would have shared this all a long time ago, but alas, I don't sport the Flying Elvis, I'm not in the NFL, and my story isn't "LINKED!!!", so I already know no one would want to hear it. It'd be treated as entirely anecdotal, and maybe that's true. It's the nature of this board; what you've learned personally doesn't matter because there's no way your athletic demands can even be close to that of an NFL player.

Gronk's injury history and body type has always caught my attention because he clearly uses a bodybuilder routine, mixes that with drinking, but also plays in the NFL, and I know that being exposed to just those first two elements together (nevermind actually playing in the NFL) is enough to make you more susceptible to injury.

H78, this was a really good post. Thanks for sharing.

Also, like KFP I too was pretty shocked by the link between alcohol and spine/back degeneration. My parent are in their 80s, and shrinking fast -- especially my Mom who was much more than my Dad a child of the Great Depression. Can't help but wonder how much the frequent -- not extreme, but definitely frequent -- glass of wine with dinner has contributed to her condition. Makes me think about my behavior as well.

 

[bigsid05]

This is why, until this thread, I've refrained from it.

I have seen, repeatedly, for over a decade, how alcohol affects athletic performance. In particular, with weightlifters and collegiate baseball players, both of which are groups I've been a part of and spent a lot of time around at various points in my life.

Both as a weightlifter/bodybuilder and as a collegiate baseball player I was always at my worse when alcohol - even small amounts - was mixed into that lifestyle. I tore my right flexor tendon pitching the day after having a couple of beers with friends. I tore my left calf - despite being in probably the absolute best shape of my life at 30 years old - while running two days after having just a few beers with friends. The calf tear actually led to a pulmonary embolism that nearly killed me, and while talking to my doctor (who specializes in sports medicine) after I recovered from both the tear and the PE he mentioned that virtually any alcohol consumption before any vigorous activity has an effect on muscle contractions and makes them much more susceptible to tears, which is probably why I suffered my tear.

He also mentioned that as your body recovers, any additional alcohol consumption could affect blood flow to the area and limit nutritional intake necessary for a complete recovery.

After I learned all of that it dawned on me that anytime I'd ever gone through long bouts of abstaining from alcohol, I'd never suffered any injuries of any sort. Baseball, weightlifting, etc - no booze, no major injuries. I've put that to the test several times since I tore my calf - abstaining from alcohol and focusing more on water intake for 4, 5 months at a time - and throughout those breaks I've suffered zero injuries.

The reason I'm bringing this up is since the PE and feedback from my physician I've focused heavily on researching and practicing proper hydration techniques (I should own stock in LyteShow) and it's resulted in zero injuries despite being a little older and setting a lot of PRs as a natural lifter the last couple of years.

Honestly, everything Brady's been saying about nutrition and hydration the last couple of years has only made me love the man more. He's breaking ground on things that make total sense to me and I truly believe he's going to revolutionize the way professional athletes approach nutrition and conditioning for their respective sports.

But, anyways, I would have shared this all a long time ago, but alas, I don't sport the Flying Elvis, I'm not in the NFL, and my story isn't "LINKED!!!", so I already know no one would want to hear it. It'd be treated as entirely anecdotal, and maybe that's true. It's the nature of this board; what you've learned personally doesn't matter because there's no way your athletic demands can even be close to that of an NFL player.

Gronk's injury history and body type has always caught my attention because he clearly uses a bodybuilder routine, mixes that with drinking, but also plays in the NFL, and I know that being exposed to just those first two elements together (nevermind actually playing in the NFL) is enough to make you more susceptible to injury.

No, what you've learned personally doesn't matter because until you have actual data (not personal anecdotes), all you have is a hypothesis.


Could Gronk's alcohol consumption be responsible for his injuries? Sure, but there is absolutely no data to definitively support that. I'd argue that there's a considerable amount of anecdotal data to refute it, given how many athletes have shown a penchant for heavy drinking but still have had on field success.

The lack of any data to support your statement is all that's being attacked her, and rightfully so. Not allowing baseless statements to stand is what makes this board great.

 

[H78]

No, what you've learned personally doesn't matter because until you have actual data (not personal anecdotes), all you have is a hypothesis.


Could Gronk's alcohol consumption be responsible for his injuries? Sure, but there is absolutely no data to definitively support that. I'd argue that there's a considerable amount of anecdotal data to refute it, given how many athletes have shown a penchant for heavy drinking but still have had on field success.

The lack of any data to support your statement is all that's being attacked her, and rightfully so. Not allowing baseless statements to stand is what makes this board great.

So what you're saying is that you haven't read all of the thread?

 

[bigsid05]

So what you're saying is that you haven't read all of the thread?

All I see in this thread are your anecdotes, which you cite as "evidence" and KFP calling you out on them. Did I miss something?

 

[H78]

All I see in this thread are your anecdotes, which you cite as "evidence" and KFP calling you out on them. Did I miss something?

How could you possibly say that when even KFP himself a few posts up mentioned that I posted the evidence he was looking for?

Stop trying so hard, man.

You responded without reading the thread. It's okay. A lot of people on the board seem to do it.

 

[bigsid05]

How could you possibly say that when even KFP himself a few posts up mentioned that I posted the evidence he was looking for?

Stop trying so hard, man.

You responded without reading the thread. It's okay. A lot of people on the board seem to do it.

I'm ok getting called out too, but I actually did read the thread in this instance. Is the Loyola mouse study the convincing evidence?

 

[EricFeczko]

JFC, this thread blows chunks. The below isn't perfect but gives a start for some actual discussion.
Let's start by establishing some framework for approaching the question: could alcohol consumption have contributed to Gronk's injuries?
First off, we need to identify what injuries Gronk has had (as others in the thread started to do). Here's a link that organizes it nicely (through the december, 2016 back injury)
http://www.masslive.com/patriots/index.ssf/2016/11/rob_gronkowski_injury_timeline.html

To me, the three biggest conditions keeping Gronk off the field have been back problems, a repeatedly broken and infected forearm, and an ACL/MCL tear when taking a helmet to the knee. The back problems and forearm struggles account for 21 and 12 games missed respectively (tear was 7).

Next, we need to see alcohol consumption can be a factor for these injuries. For example, alcohol consumption may be a factor in reherniating discs, according to a peer-reviewed and open source article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24761206). However, such risk may be modulated by quanity (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18632213). Regarding broken bones, such evidence is a bit trickier (more focus on women than men; even moderate drinking may be associated with increased bone fractures https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27459455). However other reviews suggest that moderate drinking may reduce the risk of fractures (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26971854).
The third step would be to interpret these findings in the context of Gronk. For example, one thing to keep in mind is that Gronk would probably be an outlier in most of these studies, so predicting his individual outcomes from summary studies (i.e. where we attempt to estimate population traits) is a different beast. Domain knowledge (e.g. from doctors or trainers) is neccessary to speculate on causes.

In short, it looks like alcohol's effect on injury risk is mixed and depends on parameters like gender (known), age (known) and quantity of consumption (unknown). It is more probable than not that alcohol did not help Gronk, but I wouldn't use that in court or anything.

 

[H78]

It is more probable than not that alcohol did not help Gronk, but I wouldn't use that in court or anything.

So, after all of that - storming in, trashing the thread yet proceeding to dig into the issue yourself arguably more than anyone else has (thanks for an actual contribution outside of the ironically-lazy "prove it!" hot take, by the way), with hell, fire, fury and guns a-blazing...


...and we pretty much came to the same conclusion.

Cool.

 

[EricFeczko]

I just want to contrast this with my post above. I consider my post an opposite in both tenor, approach, and content when compared to yours, my opinion could be wrong or worthless however.

H78, your posting in this thread is epically atrocious, or an excellent piece of concern trolling, I'm not quite sure. Either way, your posting has given me insight into the mindset of Roger Goodell, and for that I thank you.

Regarding your claims on alcohol's affects on hydration, they have literally nothing to do with my post. When you ask a question to yourself, consider how to answer it and what type of evidence best supports it.

In this universe, we establish connections through the meaning and purpose that we communicate to one another. In a sense, such connections are immortal and exist outside time and distance. Personally, I don't come to post and expect others to be convinced by my posting. I hope to get challenged, or provided a perspective outside my own, such that I can connect with that person and become better than I was. I would hope others do the same. Sometimes such connections are foul, othertimes less so, but in either case, it establishes something real.

This thread reminds me of a bunch of cokeheads sitting in a circle with mirrors and razor blades (KFP and Rev, among a few others are exceptions to this rule). Do better, H78.

 

[H78]

I'm flattered by your concern.

Also, how's it working out making immortal human connections that exist outside time and distance with Post-Of-The-Year-baiting icebreakers like "Jesus Fucking Christ this thread blows chunks!"

I really don't see how anyone can hate this thread at this point.

 

[CarolinaBeerGuy]

I just stumbled into this thread and am shocked that Mr. Cantillon is railing on athletes for having a couple beers. Glad I'm not an athlete. Oh, and I'll take some Loons off your hands.

 

[TheoShmeo]

Anecdotal evidence is interesting. Studies are interesting. Links to the latter are good.

This isn't a jury trial where we need to worry that the citizens in the box will be unduly influenced by a piece of evidence or that its probative value is limited. We're all able to sift through H78's posts and provide them the weight we think they deserve.

I don't know if what's happened to Gronk has been heavily influenced by his alcohol intake. I do know that H78 has given me something to think about, which I appreciate. That he might have made a logical jump or two and did not link his claims doesn't change that at all.

I think there's a difference between constructively pointing out a lack of correlation between an observable phenomenon and a conclusion and some of the reactions that we saw here, and in general I think we would gain something from reading more about our fellow posters' experiences as they bear on topics being discussed.

Bottom line, I'm glad I read H78's posts and I hope Gronk soon chooses to adopt the alcohol abstention component of the Brady plan. Like chicken soup, it might help and couldn't hurt. It also makes me consider my own intake levels, not that there is any equivalency whatsoever between me and a pro football player.

 

[tims4wins]

Anecdotal evidence is interesting. Studies are interesting. Links to the latter are good.

This isn't a jury trial where we need to worry that the citizens in the box will be unduly influenced by a piece of evidence or that its probative value is limited. We're all able to sift through H78's posts and provide them the weight we think they deserve.

I don't know if what's happened to Gronk has been heavily influenced by his alcohol intake. I do know that H78 has given me something to think about, which I appreciate. That he might have made a logical jump or two and did not link his claims doesn't change that at all.

I think there's a difference between constructively pointing out a lack of correlation between an observable phenomenon and a conclusion and some of the reactions that we saw here, and in general I think we would gain something from reading more about our fellow posters' experiences as they bear on topics being discussed.

Bottom line, I'm glad I read H78's posts and I hope Gronk soon chooses to adopt the alcohol abstention component of the Brady plan. Like chicken soup, it might help and couldn't hurt. It also makes me consider my own intake levels, not that there is any equivalency whatsoever between me and a pro football player.

Spot on, well said TS. I feel the same way. I know more about the subject than I did 24 hours ago.

 

[biff_hardbody]

I think everyone's opinion of this subject is related to their own perception and experiences with respect to alcohol and athletic performance. I appreciate H78's position and experiences though also aware that he's drawing conclusions based on his own personal experiences.

I'm interested in whether any of the "give me evidence" people would disagree that at some level of alcohol consumption, athletes experience increased risk of injury. You can quibble over what exactly that point of consumption is, but I'm reminded of the adage "now that we know you're a whore, we're just arguing about price."

In another vein, has Gronk at times been exposed to increased injury risk attributable to his alcohol consumption and not been injured? Do we care about those times?

My conclusion from reading this thread is this: Gronk would minimize his increased injury risk attributable to alcohol consumption (whatever that may be) by not drinking. For me, I'd take it a step farther and posit that as he ages, the effects of alcohol consumption on his body could be more pronounced. This may lead to an elevated increase in risk of injury when compared to what he has experienced as a younger player. I would, personally, make these statements more conclusively and say that as he ages, the effects of alcohol consumption on his body will be more pronounced and that will lead to elevated increase in risk of injury attributable to alcohol consumption. But again, my position is largely drawn from personal experience.

 

[allstonite]

Getting away from the main discussion, I think the Gronk as a hard drinker is overblown or he has at least has slowed down a lot in recent years. He goes out a lot sure but I don't think he actually drinks a ton.

This is anecdotal but Gronk and his brothers have spent a lot of weekends in recent years here in Newport. I've yet to run into Rob but I've talked to a few bartenders and bouncers I know at places he's been and they've been surprised at how coherent and well behaved he is. He's polite to all the staff and will gladly pose for pictures with fans and I've yet to hear anything about him being trashed. He buys rounds of shots but will then nurse a drink for a while.

This might be skewed because it's only been the last 3-4 years and he tends to come during camp or OTAs because it's so close to Foxboro. So he may be in training mode and "taking it easy" for him. Who knows if he's any different when he's in Vegas or Florida in the offseason. I think he's calmed down a lot and keeps up the schtick for videos and paid appearances.

Again, all completely anecdotal.

 

[ALiveH]

I suspect lots of cognitive biases. We love the Gronk, his football exploits combined with his sense of humor and hard-partying ways are legendary - so far he's been above criticism. It's difficult to hold two seemingly conflicting ideas: I believe Gronk's career would be even better if he abstained, but I love his persona & at the end of the day I don't criticize b/c I'm not a nagging mother or wife & he's a grown-ass man who can do what he wants.. Similarly, most of us probably fall in the camp of enjoying the booze, working out, and have had some annoying injuries - we should accept the trade-offs rather than pretending they don't exist.

H78's posts seem like common sense backed by studies, data and anecdotes. If someone's mind is set against an idea, no amount of data or evidence will be sufficient. This is isn't a PhD student trying to defend his dissertation to a panel of professors, or a court trial. We're just a bunch of folks on an internet message board.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Fwiw, I think that the single best piece of evidence posted in this thread is that TB12 doesn't really touch the stuff anymore. Fucking guy is superhuman as an old man, by football standards. If he eats sheep nuts 5x a week, Gronk et al. should consider them.

 

[H78]

Wow, really happy to see how this conversation's evolved overnight and through the morning. I honestly was not expecting that. Every time I bring this topic up I get hammered for 2-3 days by mostly the same people, then a year or two goes by, it comes up again and I get hammered again for 2-3 days by mostly the same people...rinse and repeat.

As far as why Gronk seems to get hurt when other guys don't (other guys that're also drinking), I actually have a theory (with zero proof, so don't ask, because I don't have it) behind why that seems to be true that I bet a lot of folks at SoSH will think is insane:

I don't think Gronk uses any steroids or growth hormones. I actually think he's entirely "clean" when it comes to using banned substances.

I say this because he has a very "natural" looking build - his build is very similar to that of natural bodybuilders. He doesn't have overgrown shoulders ("boulder shoulders"), no "steroid gut," seems to keep his cool (usually) on the field, doesn't have year-round insane vascularity, generally seems to be around 12-14% body fat (which is right around where most natural lifters land year-round), etc.

The fact that he's also reached out to Brady regarding dietary and lifestyle changes makes me further believe that he's clean. The fact that he gets injured regularly and *possibly* doesn't recover so easily from nights out makes me think that he's clean. The fact that he's an insanely "good soldier" and always seems concerned with doing what's best for the team tells me he's actually thoughtful enough to take steps to ensure he doesn't get suspended.

I know the prevailing assumption (talk about opinions without proof, BTW) about the NFL is that everyone's on something, but I'd bet a crisp $100 bill on Gronk being clean, and be fairly (though not entirely because of my admitted lack of credible proof) confident in that bet. His "build" is entirely attainable - naturally - by anyone simply tracking macros and putting in enough time in the gym, both of which I'm sure he does. People assume that lots of muscle = steroid use, but the reality is that just isn't true of you're eating right ~80% of the time.

Again: I admit that is totally an opinion based on an "eye test" and I could totally be wrong. If you've read this whole post, if you've made it this far, this is me telling you that I could be wrong, so please don't accuse me of stating a fact without evidence in 30 minutes. This is just a hunch based on personal experience.

Also, one caveat to this theory: with all of the above said, it wouldn't surprise me if he gets busted down the road for steroid/HGH use. As he gets older and recovery becomes even more of an issue, the draw to start using (assuming he doesn't use now) may prove to be too irresistible if it means prolonging his career. I think that's what happened to Nink.

 

[Marciano490]

Now you're messing with us, right? Not using steroids makes him more injury prone?

 

[H78]

Now you're messing with us, right? Not using steroids makes him more injury prone?

No, that's not necessarily what I'm saying. I'm saying he's not using substances that aid in recovery (in general, from games and from workouts) that a lot of other guys are using.

That idea (slower recovery), combined with the drinking, may make him a little more injury prone.

I was wondering what you, in particular, would think of my thought that he may be clean. I'm assuming you disagree, because I know you've stated before you believe pretty much the entire league is using (not criticizing you, just bringing that up because I think I've seen you mention it before).

I admit I'm not an expert in steroid use (I've never used them in almost 15 years of lifting/bodybuilding), because I've always gone the natty/diet route. It's just a thought - his build and BF reminds me a lot of nattys I've been around. That's all.

 

[Marciano490]

No, that's not necessarily what I'm saying. I'm saying he's not using substances that aid in recovery (in general, from games and from workouts) that a lot of other guys are using.

That idea (slower recovery), combined with the drinking, may make him a little more injury prone.

I was wondering what you, in particular, would think of my thought that he may be clean. I'm assuming you disagree, because I know you've stated before you believe pretty much the entire league is using (not criticizing you, just bringing that up because I think I've seen you mention it before).

I admit I'm not an expert in steroid use (I've never used them in almost 15 years of lifting/bodybuilding), because I've always gone the natty/diet route. It's just a thought - his build and BF reminds me a lot of nattys I've been around. That's all.

I don't think he's clean, but like you say, I don't think anyone is.

Steroids don't help you recover from injuries so far as I know; they may help you lose less strength while injured so I suppose they help you get back on the field more quickly. But, if anything, they'd make you more injury prone (hi, Ted Johnson!).

HGH is touted as having this and that ability to heal injuries, but everyone I've ever known to take it just spends a crapload of money and doesn't actually get better much quick. There are legal peptides like BPC-157 that are supposed to help more, anyways.

 

[H78]

I don't think he's clean, but like you say, I don't think anyone is.

Steroids don't help you recover from injuries so far as I know; they may help you lose less strength while injured so I suppose they help you get back on the field more quickly. But, if anything, they'd make you more injury prone (hi, Ted Johnson!).

HGH is touted as having this and that ability to heal injuries, but everyone I've ever known to take it just spends a crapload of money and doesn't actually get better much quick. There are legal peptides like BPC-157 that are supposed to help more, anyways.

Yeah, I've always suspected most guys in the NFL use HGH because I've always heard the same about how it aids in recovery, but I can't speak towards whether there's any legitimacy behind it either, because I don't know many users and I've never used it myself.

Steroids, I agree, are more for building muscle than aiding in recovery, but I figured I'd lump it with HGH because people generally suspect NFL players of using either.

I'm unfamiliar with BPC-157, but now you have me intrigued and wanting to learn more about it.

But yeah - am I betting my life on Gronk being clean? No way. But just based on his build compared with the countless natty's I've worked with, I'd take a low-risk $100 bet on it.

 

[Marciano490]

I don't mean this in a dickish way at all, but I feel like you're saying things just to say them, which is fine, but what you're saying is fairly unfounded and maybe even actually wrong. I'm not sure what you're getting at besides just propagating some half baked theories you have.

 

[H78]

I don't mean this in a dickish way at all, but I feel like you're saying things just to say them, which is fine, but what you're saying is fairly unfounded and maybe even actually wrong. I'm not sure what you're getting at besides just propagating some half baked theories you have.

I don't understand what you mean - I said it's 100% a theory and I have no evidence to back it up, just an eye-test based on my experience with other natural bodybuilders.

You definitely know more about steroids, human growth hormones, and PEDs than I do. Whatever you find questionable, I genuinely encourage you to share your knowledge with me and subsequently the rest of the board (that is also not meant to be dickish, you're actually one of the posters I respect the most on SoSH. Most people here are great at dishing out criticism but weak when it comes to stepping up and providing any actual insight or original thoughts themselves).

 

[Curt S Loew]

I don't understand what you mean - I said it's 100% a theory and I have no evidence to back it up, just an eye-test based on my experience with other natural bodybuilders.

So, basically what Marciano said. Not hard to understand.

 

[H78]

Here we go again.

What's up with people coming in to take a shit and ride someone else's coattails, yet I'm the one being killed for not providing substantial enough posts?

It's happened, what, half a dozen times in here without a whisper from a mod, but then a mod will come in and kill me despite actually posting links to substantiate my thoughts?

If you don't have anything to add to this thread other than "YOU SUCK!" just grow a pair and PM that to me and spare everyone the useless bump.

And no, I'm not looking for pity. I'm pointing out some pretty lame shit - far worse than anything I'm saying - that for some reason seems to be allowed to happen here. There's a reason people PM me every time threads turn out this way expressing how they're sick of it, too.

Enough with these echo chambers. This is why so many people lurk and don't post.

 

[Curt S Loew]

Here we go again.

What's up with people coming in to take a shit and ride someone else's coattails, yet I'm the one being killed for not providing substantial enough posts?

It's happened, what, half a dozen times in here without a whisper form a mod, but then a mod will come in and kill me despite actually posting links to substantiate my thoughts?

If you don't have anything to add to this thread other than "YOU SUCK!" just PM that to me and spare everyone the useless bump.

And no, I'm not looking for pity. I'm pointing out some pretty lame shit - far worse than anything I'm saying - that for some reason seems to be allowed to happen here.

Sucks when these threads turn into echo chambers.

Well, it certainly would help if you wouldn't be so defensive in every single one of your posts. You don't need to qualify everything with expected criticism, because guess what? You're inviting it.

That you chose to read my response as "YOU SUCK" is a great example. If you had read Mariano's response in a non defensive manner you would have seen that you understand and basically agree with him.

 

[Marciano490]

I don't understand what you mean - I said it's 100% a theory and I have no evidence to back it up, just an eye-test based on my experience with other natural bodybuilders.

You definitely know more about steroids, human growth hormones, and PEDs than I do. Whatever you find questionable, I genuinely encourage you to share your knowledge with me and subsequently the rest of the board (that is also not meant to be dickish, you're actually one of the posters I respect the most on SoSH. Most people here are great at dishing out criticism but weak when it comes to stepping up and providing any actual insight or original thoughts themselves).

I don't know that I know much more than you do, we're both in the same gyms and world and get exposed to the same sort of things. I just think - regardless of your eye test on Gronk's physique (and, again, anyone with gym or training experience knows you can't really eye test steroids, or, especially hgh) - that you have to try really hard to construct a theory that someone is MORE injury prone because they don't take steroids. You're welcome to your opinions and to share them, I'm just wondering how that one was even formed and why you thought it worth of putting out into the universe.

 

[H78]

Well, it certainly would help if you wouldn't be so defensive in every single one of your posts. You don't need to qualify everything with expected criticism, because guess what? You're inviting it.

That you chose to read my response as "YOU SUCK" is a great example. If you had read Mariano's response in a non defensive manner you would have seen that you understand and basically agree with him.

If that's the case, what value did your post add, then?

What, exactly, was the point of it?

 

[Curt S Loew]

If that's the case, what value did your post add, then?

What, exactly, was the point of it?

To maybe help you see this.

 

[H78]

I don't know that I know much more than you do, we're both in the same gyms and world and get exposed to the same sort of things. I just think - regardless of your eye test on Gronk's physique (and, again, anyone with gym or training experience knows you can't really eye test steroids, or, especially hgh) - that you have to try really hard to construct a theory that someone is MORE injury prone because they don't take steroids. You're welcome to your opinions and to share them, I'm just wondering how that one was even formed and why you thought it worth of putting out into the universe.

As I later clarified, I was speaking more of HGH and it's supposed healing benefits.

If it does have healing benefits that do end up aiding players in recovery, and Gronk isn't a user, then you can see why workouts may have lingering affects and make him more susceptible to injury.

That's aside from drinking.

Add in the drinking, and I think that may make him more prone overall to injury than, say, a player that drinks, hits the weights, and take growth hormone to aid in recovery.

I agree that HGH use tends to me more noticeable in older athletes, say, 40+, who should have decreased testosterone levels and struggle to maintain lean body mass, yet remain lean and "big."

At the end of the day this is just a thought. I could be wrong.

 

[H78]

To maybe help you see this.

Dogman, really?

Or is "moderation" actually a selective approach, at this point, depending on how cool you think someone is on this board?

You guys say "make threads!" This is why no one makes threads outside of the same people, over and over. I can tell you that for a fact. It's up to you to care more than you care about redundant entertainment.

You can take this as honest feedback or get pissed about it and continue to let it happen. Just don't criticize me the way you did earlier in this thread when I bail out of the conversation again.