Anthony Davis: No Loyalty

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
19,759
Can someone with a better insight into today's Xs and Os than I have (which is probably 98% of people in this forum) explain how Ainge/Stevens might envision an "Celtics with AD" to be different and, presumably, better than a "Celtics with JT"? Genuine question, not looking for any snark, etc.

Yes, I know AD is one of the superstars and the goal nowadays is to try and land one of those dudes. But simply put, I find watching Tatum (and envisioning what he might become) on my team to be enjoyable & am curious what the C's look like on the floor if he goes.
At this moment, AD is a do-it-all, certainly top 5 player and maybe better than that, in the entire NBA. JT is the second guy on his team.

Teams aren't doubling JT yet. JT is okay on the boards but imagine if they had AD. AD is a rim protector. AD is basically Al + Baynes together. Does that help?
 

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
6,478
Maine
OTOH, winning the Championship could have the opposite effect; he may decide he's got the one ring, and that he would really like to be either in the bright lights of LA or NY, ...
I had the same thought which is why I also asked about option 1 and "only" winning the East.

Make him stay hungry, but knows he is in the best spot to break through.

Didnt know that Davis wouldnt be eligible for the Supermax. Kinda sucks as it will be a big piece of Celts leverage that they wont have.
Al coming back would be nice and as a 6th man he would be a real weapon all while keeping the miles down during the season.

You make a good point about Brown, and maybe Ainge can work some magic and move him for a lesser player (and contract) that makes the sum of the Kyrie, Davis, Hayward parts better.
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
5,272
I'm not sure there isn't more to the story. If you're Harden at that stage of your career and know how good you are.....why would you sign a contract to play 3rd fiddle to RWB and Durant? This never passed the smell test to me which is why I never put any of the blame on OKC in regards to the Harden trade.
Wouldn’t he have been a restricted free agent if they had held on to him for the remainder of his rookie deal?
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
7,618
Boston, MA
I'm not sure there isn't more to the story. If you're Harden at that stage of your career and know how good you are.....why would you sign a contract to play 3rd fiddle to RWB and Durant? This never passed the smell test to me which is why I never put any of the blame on OKC in regards to the Harden trade.
You may be right. Just quickly reading some excerpts from around that time, OKC offered Harden pretty good money and Harden claimed he wasn't given a lot of time to consider the offer.
 

Carmine Hose

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 2, 2001
4,981
Dorchester, MA
The wildcards in all this will be settled in a little over 3 months. Draft lottery night is May 14th. At that point, the Clippers pick will either be in or out (most likely unusable after the Harris trade). Memphis is probably top-8, so that's likely out. It comes down to the Sacto pick. Currently just in the lottery, if it can rise to #2 or #3, then we have some ammo to avoid trading Tatum. If it stays where it is, or the nightmare scenario happens where it goes #1 and Philly keeps it - and we get another 20s pick - then Tatum is a goner.

Also, reading Stein's tweets, he is saying that Davis will not sign a long term extension with Boston, but also says he won't sign an extension with anyone and go to FA, just like Kyrie is doing because it makes no financial sense to sign before July 1. Captain Obvious moment.

AD, if he's with the Celtics, will have to decide to turn down an extra year on an extension and $40+ million, to move to the Lakers with a 36 year old LeBron, or say the Knicks with a 32-year old Durant.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
6,423
Kiev, Ukraine
Can someone with a better insight into today's Xs and Os than I have (which is probably 98% of people in this forum) explain how Ainge/Stevens might envision an "Celtics with AD" to be different and, presumably, better than a "Celtics with JT"? Genuine question, not looking for any snark, etc.

Yes, I know AD is one of the superstars and the goal nowadays is to try and land one of those dudes. But simply put, I find watching Tatum (and envisioning what he might become) on my team to be enjoyable & am curious what the C's look like on the floor if he goes.
Short and simple version: offensive basketball is all about gravity off the ball, and advantage matchups on the ball. AD is a massive positive in both respects, and that has cascading effects through the rest of the offense.
 

Marbleheader

Dope
Dope
Sep 27, 2004
10,445
Just out of curiosity, if AD goes elsewhere, who do you think the next best fit would be for them that would potentially be available for a Tatum-centered deal? In other words who do you think Plan B is?
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,284
I'm not sure there isn't more to the story. If you're Harden at that stage of your career and know how good you are.....why would you sign a contract to play 3rd fiddle to RWB and Durant? This never passed the smell test to me which is why I never put any of the blame on OKC in regards to the Harden trade.
He was very clear at the time that he wanted a max contract extension and OKC never even got close to that in their various offers. Harden got traded because ownership was cheap; there is nothing more to the story.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
3,744
around the way
Just out of curiosity, if AD goes elsewhere, who do you think the next best fit would be for them that would potentially be available for a Tatum-centered deal? In other words who do you think Plan B is?
Tatum is plan B. Doubtful that there's anyone else that Danny would trade him for, but definitely that guy or two (if he exists) isn't available.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
11,030
Davis: "I want to be traded!"

Pelicans: "You sure?"

Davis: "Yeah, fuck you!"

Pelicans: "Um, alright."

Davis: "And make it to the Lakers!"

Pelicans: "Nah."

Davis: "Yeah! Fuck you!"

Pelicans: "Well, maybe the Lakers, but not until after the season. We'll get better offers then. That also means you lose the chance to sign a super-max and may end up somewhere other than the Lakers."

Davis: "Oh, uh...if you don't send me to the Lakers, I want to play out the rest of my contract...has nothing to do with the SuperMax or anything..."

Pelicans: "Hey Anthony? Fuck you."
 

Red Averages

owes you $50
SoSH Member
Apr 20, 2003
5,696
It is pretty wild to realize how big a difference these two hours will be for the Celtics organization over the next 10 years. Feels like we're up 15 points with 5 min left in the 4th at the moment. Just need to wind the clock down for victory.

This is something we've speculated about for years, but now it's finally coming to fruition. Just amazing to take a step back and process it.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
44,417
deep inside Guido territory
It is pretty wild to realize how big a difference these two hours will be for the Celtics organization over the next 10 years. Feels like we're up 15 points with 5 min left in the 4th at the moment. Just need to wind the clock down for victory.

This is something we've speculated about for years, but now it's finally coming to fruition. Just amazing to take a step back and process it.
It better not turn out like Game 7 in 2010
 

RoyHobbs

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 13, 2005
1,800
Pg. 35 of "Win it For"
Teams aren't doubling JT yet. JT is okay on the boards but imagine if they had AD. AD is a rim protector. AD is basically Al + Baynes together. Does that help?
Short and simple version: offensive basketball is all about gravity off the ball, and advantage matchups on the ball. AD is a massive positive in both respects, and that has cascading effects through the rest of the offense.
Thanks guys. I can visualize things a bit better. Let me ask -- is there a scenario where a(n improved, matured, more polished) Tatum brings a dimension to the C's game that would be just as effective as, or effective in a different but still significant way from, what Davis could bring?
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,284
Thanks guys. I can visualize things a bit better. Let me ask -- is there a scenario where a(n improved, matured, more polished) Tatum brings a dimension to the C's game that would be just as effective as, or effective in a different but still significant way from, what Davis could bring?
Think about it this way. Zach Lowe has said that Anthony Davis is the most impactful player available in a trade since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1975. He's a generational talent in his absolute prime. Those guys simply aren't ever available. It's Shaq to the Lakers in 1996 or Lebron to the Heat in 2010 as historical comps.

AD is an elite defender, playmaker, finisher and rebounder. You can build any offensive or defensive system you want around him. Tatum is a good talent, probably even a multi-time All-Star by the time his career is over, but you can't compare him to a guy who's going to be an inner-circle Hall of Famer provided he stays healthy.
 
Last edited:

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
10,038
The top echelon of NBA talent is represented by Durant, Steph, Kawhi, Harden, Playoff LeBron, and arguably (and becoming less arguably by the day), Giannis. Anthony Davis is in that same echelon.

There is another tier of 20-25 players that are in the second tier of "great but not transcendental". Kyrie is solidly in that tier (no matter what his detractors say), as are guys like Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Embiid, Westbrook, KAT, Jokic, and obviously quite a few others. Tatum's current trajectory means he could very well join that second tier in the next 2-3 years. That's an extremely valuable player, one that could easily be a crucial building block for a contending team. But that's still a projection. Which means that he's absolutely the type of player you give up to get Davis. Unless, of course, you determine there is little chance to keep Davis beyond the 1 year rental period.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
19,759
Thanks guys. I can visualize things a bit better. Let me ask -- is there a scenario where a(n improved, matured, more polished) Tatum brings a dimension to the C's game that would be just as effective as, or effective in a different but still significant way from, what Davis could bring?
Yes there is a scenario.

If you watch the games, you will know that multiple times a game, JT will stop the ball and go through some, most, or all of his shake and bake moves and then launch a 15-20 footer. (If you don't watch the games, you can simply read the game threads and find where the word "Kobe" comes up.)

Without doing any research, my guess is he hits about 1-3 of them. If he started hitting, say, 2-3 of them, he could be a top 10 player in the NBA. That would be pretty good.

And frankly, that's exactly why NO has him in laser sights.

edit: to put some color on this. Where the shot > 10' but inside the 3P line, JT is 2-7 when the defender is 0-2' away; 35-91 when the defender is 2-4' away; and 35-107 when the defender is 4-6' away. That's 35.1%. Just for ease of reference, if he made one more of these shots a game, he'd be up to 60% (which is very high admittedly) but he'd also take more of them. Imagine what his potential would be then.
 
Last edited:

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
12,452
Waltham, MA
So what do the Lakers do to improve their position by summer? What kind of shenanigans can the Klakers pull next time to put their thumb on the scale? And where can they turn to post-AD. This isn’t the team Lebron and Magic envisioned running with.
 

Red Averages

owes you $50
SoSH Member
Apr 20, 2003
5,696
Trading Bird was huge as it allows the Celtics to sign someone with the MLE to include in the Davis trade. Allows them to keep Smart and/or Baynes I'd think.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
12,328
So what do the Lakers do to improve their position by summer? What kind of shenanigans can the Klakers pull next time to put their thumb on the scale? And where can they turn to post-AD. This isn’t the team Lebron and Magic envisioned running with.
They can win the lottery.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
34,726
So what do the Lakers do to improve their position by summer? What kind of shenanigans can the Klakers pull next time to put their thumb on the scale? And where can they turn to post-AD. This isn’t the team Lebron and Magic envisioned running with.
This is going to be fascinating to watch. They almost surely won't be getting AD. Maybe they peel off a Kemba Walker type in FA and trade Lonzo for something half decent. Barring something unforeseen, I think LeBron's LA tenure could be a hilarious failure.
 

Big John

lurker
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
AD has threatened to sue, so likely not.
Why hasn't Chandler Parsons sued? He wants to play too. And the difference is, the the team told Parsons he was not part of its future. AD is the one who told the Pelicans that he didn't want to be part of their future. Why should the Pels play Davis when what they want to do now is lose as much as possible, not to mention risking injury to their most valuable asset?

Good luck with that suit, Anthony. It's just Klutch B.S.
 
Last edited:

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
19,759
AD has threatened to sue, so likely not.
Sue whom? NOP? That's pretty laughable.

NOP may decide to let him play (or may not) but a threatened lawsuit isn't going make their decision.

IIRC from many many moons ago, there's a line of entertainment law cases that basically came to the conclusion that it's impossible to force talent to perform. I would love to see what would happen if AD sued to try to be able to perform.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
3,974
NBA contract law is so confusing for fans to be able to follow. So, is it the case that it makes no financial sense for AD to sign a contract extension with any team that were to trade for him on July 1?

Second question, assuming AD is traded to someone after July 1, what advantage does that team have over others that would like to sign him as a free agent in 2020? They have his Bird rights, but what does that mean, exactly, vs. what some other team could offer him?
 

Big John

lurker
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
Adam Silver can put a stop to NO sitting a healthy player pretty easily if he wants.
Yes, but he's never done it before. Why hasn't he forced the Grizz to play Parsons? And why should the league's owners support such a move? Silver works for them.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
6,423
Kiev, Ukraine
Yes, but he's never done it before. Why hasn't he forced the Grizz to play Parsons? And why should the league's owners support such a move? Silver works for them.
Yup, a lot of owners would like to see AD made an example of for doing this sort of hamfisted midseason power play.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,340
NBA contract law is so confusing for fans to be able to follow. So, is it the case that it makes no financial sense for AD to sign a contract extension with any team that were to trade for him on July 1?
this is correct

Second question, assuming AD is traded to someone after July 1, what advantage does that team have over others that would like to sign him as a free agent in 2020? They have his Bird rights, but what does that mean, exactly, vs. what some other team could offer him?
Assuming the current cap projection is correct,

the team with his Bird rights can offer him 5/197
if he leaves, a new team can offer him 4/146

most of the difference is in the extra year though. It's about a 7.5M difference over the first 4 years.
 

CreedBratton

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 6, 2009
3,279
After considering the possibility of shutting down All-NBA center Anthony Davis, the New Orleans Pelicans plan to allow Davis back into the lineup for the rest of the season, league sources tell ESPN.
 

Red Averages

owes you $50
SoSH Member
Apr 20, 2003
5,696
I actually expect AD to play, but it will not be fun at home games... or wouldn’t be fun if anyone showed up and cared.
 

Myt1

the FRESH maker
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 13, 2006
29,891
South Boston
Sue whom? NOP? That's pretty laughable.

NOP may decide to let him play (or may not) but a threatened lawsuit isn't going make their decision.

IIRC from many many moons ago, there's a line of entertainment law cases that basically came to the conclusion that it's impossible to force talent to perform. I would love to see what would happen if AD sued to try to be able to perform.
He’s a union member subject to a CBA with a disciplinary structure and a grievance procedure. The notion that suit to enforce a personal services contract generally isn’t subject to an award of specific performance isn’t really at play here, especially because monetary damages are allowable in that context.

I haven’t gone through the CBA with a fine-toothed comb, but I’d start by arguing that Davis was being disciplined outside of the league’s disciplinary structure. I don’t know off the top of my head whether the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing applies to employment relationships in a CBA context, but if it does, that’s another avenue.

I’m a little curious as to the basis for the certitude in this thread to the contrary.
 

EvilEmpire

Dope
Staff member
Dope
Gold Supporter
Apr 9, 2007
11,353
Washington
this is correct



Assuming the current cap projection is correct,

the team with his Bird rights can offer him 5/197
if he leaves, a new team can offer him 4/146

most of the difference is in the extra year though. It's about a 7.5M difference over the first 4 years.
Thanks for posting that. I thought there would be more financial incentive for him to extend.
 

Big John

lurker
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
I haven’t gone through the CBA with a fine-toothed comb, but I’d start by arguing that Davis was being disciplined outside of the league’s disciplinary structure. I don’t know off the top of my head whether the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing applies to employment relationships in a CBA context, but if it does, that’s another avenue.

I’m a little curious as to the basis for the certitude in this thread to the contrary.
1. Should every player who isn't getting his desired playing time be able to argue that those DNP-CDs were extra-contractual discipline not permitted by the CBA?
2. What are the damages so long as the Pelicans continue to pay him? I suppose Davis could argue that benching impairs the value of some future sneaker contract or ancillary revenue source, but where is that sort of revenue guaranteed in the CBA?
3. Is it bad faith for the franchise to protect its most valuable asset from injury? He's the one who asked for a trade.

Anyone can bring a lawsuit, but this one smells like a loser to me.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
10,038
My guess is the the league would step in if NO tried to sit Davis the rest of the season. Maybe Silver already has. League commissioners do have fairly broad authority in such matters.
 

Myt1

the FRESH maker
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 13, 2006
29,891
South Boston
1. Should every player who isn't getting his desired playing time be able to argue that those DNP-CDs were extra-contractual discipline not permitted by the CBA?
Probably not. If there were evidence that the DNP-CDs weren’t made for on the court basketball reasons (say, just hypothetically, now, these DNPs directly coincided with a disciplinary fine and a healthy superstar) then, yeah, probably.

You understand how this differs from not playing a healthy superstar solely for the purposes of retaining his trade value though right? I mean, of course you do. Which is why you’d rather talk about something that isn’t really at issue.

2. What are the damages so long as the Pelicans continue to pay him? I suppose Davis could argue that benching impairs the value of some future sneaker contract or ancillary revenue source, but where is that sort of revenue guaranteed in the CBA?
Why would that revenue have to be guaranteed in the CBA? Merely not being able to play could be a cognizable injury, given the short-lives nature of a professional sports career. If I recall correctly, that was one of the harms that Tom Brady argued in his Deflategate suit.

3. Is it bad faith for the franchise to protect its most valuable asset from injury? He's the one who asked for a trade.
If they’re doing it in bad faith it is. I mean, this is why we have arbitrations and trials.

Anyone can bring a lawsuit, but this one smells like a loser to me.
Based on what, exactly? Your argument is basically: it’s possible that teams might not play someone for some reason other than bad faith.

Like, no kidding? And?

I mean, let’s see if the team that wants to tank and protect its most valuable asset from injury sits him or plays him.
 

Big John

lurker
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
So there is one set of rules for superstars and another set of rules for everybody else? Why does he get to file a grievance and Chandler Parsons doesn't? Does Parsons have a claim against the NBAPA for failure adequately to represent if the union files a grievance on ADs behalf but not on Parsons behalf?
And you would set out to establish "bad faith" exactly how? Is sitting him to prevent injury to a valuable asset "bad faith?"
 
Last edited: