Are the Baltimore Ravens good?

tims4wins

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3 wins by 12 points total over the Bills, Browns, and Jags. Jury still very much up in the air. Curious to see if they can beat Oakland this weekend but even if they do not sure it will tell us all that much.
 

Rudy's Curve

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They were also down 20-0 to the Browns and only won last week since Bortles absolutely melted down. So, no.
 

NYCSox

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They were also down 20-0 to the Browns and only won last week since Bortles absolutely melted down. So, no.
If there is one thing a Bengals fan and a Steelers fan can agree on it's this. They'll get to 9-7 just because of the schedule but that should be their ceiling.
 

tims4wins

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Well they host Oakland this weekend and Washington next weekend so there is a legit chance they get to 5-0.

But the remaining schedule after that is pretty difficult, capped by a brutal closing stretch: @ NE, vs. PHI, @ Pitt, @ Cincy
 

dbn

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With all the caveats that go with my "who-beat-whom iterative ranker thing", it has them 10th, the lowest undefeated team.

rank, team, record, "points", ranks of teams beaten -- ranks of teams lost to
1 MIN 3- 0___55.00_____ 21 14 9 --
2 DEN 3- 0___52.00_____ 9 27 11 --
3 NE 3- 0___46.50_____ 22 23 8 --
4 PHI 3- 0___39.00_____ 29 26 5 --
5 PIT 2- 1___34.00_____ 17 11 -- 4
6 LA 2- 1___27.00_____ 7 20 -- 12
7 SEA 2- 1___25.00_____ 23 12 -- 6
8 HOU 2- 1___21.00_____ 26 16 -- 3
9 CAR 1- 2___18.00_____ 12 -- 2 1
10 BAL 3- 0___13.00_____ 25 29 32 --
11 CIN 2- 2___12.00_____ 24 23 -- 5 2
12 SF 1- 2___11.00_____ 6 -- 9 7
13 DAL 2- 1___9.00_____ 17 26 -- 14
14 GB 2- 1___5.00_____ 32 28 -- 1
14 NYG 2- 1___5.00_____ 13 31 -- 17
16 KC 2- 1___4.00_____ 30 24 -- 8
17 WAS 1- 2___1.00_____ 14 -- 5 13
18 ATL 2- 1___-3.50_____ 19 31 -- 20
19 OAK 2- 1___-4.00_____ 31 21 -- 18
20 TB 1- 2___-12.50_____ 18 -- 22 6
21 TEN 1- 2___-14.50_____ 28 -- 1 19
22 ARI 1- 2___-15.00_____ 20 -- 3 25
23 MIA 1- 3___-17.00_____ 29 -- 7 3 11
24 NYJ 1- 2___-19.00_____ 25 -- 11 16
25 BUF 1- 2___-22.50_____ 22 -- 10 24
26 CHI 0- 3___-25.00_____ -- 8 4 13
27 IND 1- 2___-27.00_____ 30 -- 28 2
28 DET 1- 2___-29.00_____ 27 -- 21 14
29 CLE 0- 3___-37.00_____ -- 4 10 23
30 SD 1- 2___-42.00_____ 32 -- 16 27
31 NO 0- 3___-50.50_____ -- 19 14 18
32 JAC 0- 3___-54.00_____ -- 14 30 10
 

dcmissle

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As with most teams, check in mid-season, but maybe more so with the Ravens because they have a fair number of young guys and new parts. Then, as with everyone else, injury and the injuries of competitors. This is such an attrition League at this point that I would not hazard a guess. You know when a team is bad; you don't know how long a good team will stay that way.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Positives: excellent, deep defensive line; OL has the potential to be very good (Yanda is Pro Bowl level; Stanley had been playing well; Wagner seems to have recovered from his Lisfranc injury). Good not great group of LBs (there's potential for growth here, particularly in terms of pass rushers); Weddle has been playing really well and really filled a need; Jimmy Smith (though not at the level before his Lisfranc injury) is certainly not a top-5 CB but he's probably top 15; Lots of speed of WR; and Flacco.

Negatives. Does not appear to be a lot of playmakers on offense. Lack of speed at RB and TE. Center has not been playing well and that's caused problems with them. No dominant pass rusher. 2nd CB looks like someone who was waived by 49ers last year. Webb playing new position.

I think they are good but not elite. They don't have any glaring weaknesses but they also don't have any guys who can really take over a game. They appear to be deeper in the secondary than they have been in years so perhaps that will help against top-flight passing teams (where they have had past issues).

Will be a good test to see whether they can contain all of OAK's weapons. They didn't a particularly good job against OAK last year (although they still had the game won until the refs intervened).
 

tims4wins

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They're not bad but they're far from a threat in the AFC. Borderline playoff team. More likely 7-9 or 8-8 and home in January
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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A lot of that team depends, believe it or not, on Ronnie Stanley. James Hurst is okay (I guess) for a backup left tackle but he was really abused by Mack and Irvin.

Defense played better than I expected against that offense. Don't understand why Sharece Wright is starting though.
 

Rudy's Curve

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tims4wins

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To be fair, West was running over the Skins in the first half yesterday and then he just chose to stop running the ball. That's a fireable offense.
Well when you have the best QB in the NFL according to his coach, why wouldn't you throw 46 times when you can gain a whopping 210 yards on those plays
 

tims4wins

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Jamison Hensley ESPN Staff Writer

This is the second time Ravens coach John Harbaugh has fired his offensive coordinator during the season. He let go Cam Cameron in 2012, and it propelled Baltimore to Super Bowl. Interestingly enough, both firings came following losses to Redskins.
 

pappymojo

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http://www.avclub.com/article/let-coach-whine-crazy-fumble-rules-are-fine-244214

Baltimore head coach John Harbaugh, a baby who pees his pants, does not like this rule. He said as much in his post-game piss conference, where he said, “I think it’s a crazy rule.” Then a Ravens PR official handed Harbaugh a plate of Zwieback teething biscuits, and he gnawed on them contentedly. But the next day he was feeling cranky again: “If you fumble it out of bounds anywhere else,” he complained, “the team that loses the ball gets the ball right there. If you fumble it though the end zone, you lose the ball, and you lose 20 yards of field position. Pretty hard one to figure out.”

Yup, that crazy end-zone-fumble rule—it’s the Saturday New York Times crossword puzzle of football regulations. Here’s another baffler: If you advance the ball anywhere else on the field, you get zero points, but if you bring it into the end zone, you get six points. What gives? I mean, what the hell kind of riddle is that?
 

Rudy's Curve

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Apropos of nothing, but it's just insane how good the Ravens run with the timing of Roethlisberger's injuries. Excluding playoffs, he's played 25 games against the Bengals (never missed a start) and 22 against the Browns while only playing 17 against the Ravens and likely to miss another one coming up.
 

tims4wins

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Well back to the original question, three straight losses as their good fortune finally caught up to them. They now rank 15th in DVOA which seems a bit generous. Next 3 are @ Jets (Geno), vs. Steelers (Landry), and vs. Cleveland (nuff said). They need to win at least 2 of 3 to keep their season going. If they go 1-2 to fall to 4-5 it is hard to see them getting enough wins to make the playoffs. The last 7 go @ Dallas, vs. Cincy, vs. Miami, @ NE, vs. Phily, @ Pitt, @ Cincy. That's 4 really difficult road games.
 

jablo1312

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4 straight losses now. Their next 2 games are against a (most likely) Landry Jones led Steelers team, and the Browns. So they could be right back in things at 5-4, and Harbaugh is a damn good coach who's teams I won't rule out. But they look pretty mediocre from every angle except their run defense at this point.

It's not like he's throwing to HOF'ers, but Flacco through 7 games has 5 TDs and 6 picks, and a career low 6.0 Y/A. He has looked thoroughly medicore for 1.5 seasons now (I know he's coming off of a torn ACL, but he looked pretty bad before he got hurt last year). People say it takes 2 years to fully recover from a torn ACL for most players (think back to the differences between 09 and 10 Brady). But even if he recovers to his full pre-injury self, how good is that quarterback.Barely a franchise guy? Better than Dalton, Tannehill, Cutler? I know everyone wants to talk about his incredible Super Bowl run and use that as evidence that he's vastly superior to those players, but we have seasons worth of evidence that his standard level of play isn't that different from those guys.

Regardless, he's not going anywhere. His dead money figures if he gets cut in the next 3 years: $47 million, ~$29 million, ~$16 million. That takes him through his age 34 season in Baltimore, after which they can move on from him at a more palatable $8 million figure. I'm not saying they should give up on him or anything, as he has shown he can be a solid starter in this league, just that it's becoming more clear that he's not the type of player that can elevate mediocre surrounding talent to greater heights, and the Ravens offensive roster sure looks devoid of a lot of young, talented building blocks moving forward.This would concern me if I was a Ravens fans.
 

Morning Woodhead

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It makes me so happy that since the Edelman to Amendola game, the Ravens are now 8-15. If they finish this season with 5 or 6 wins (which is possible) Harbaugh's seat has to start getting a little hot heading into next year. Right?

Newsome has also had some uncharacteristically poor drafts recently too. The roster is pretty crappy. Between the lack of talent and being stuck with Flacco, they may be digging out of the hole for another season or two.
 

Shelterdog

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It makes me so happy that since the Edelman to Amendola game, the Ravens are now 8-15. If they finish this season with 5 or 6 wins (which is possible) Harbaugh's seat has to start getting a little hot heading into next year. Right?

Newsome has also had some uncharacteristically poor drafts recently too. The roster is pretty crappy. Between the lack of talent and being stuck with Flacco, they may be digging out of the hole for another season or two.
I've said it before but Ozzie is a peculiar GM. He's not necessarily a great drafter with one exception: he's had an absolutely incredible record in the first ten years of his career in converting first round picks into multi year pro bowlers with long careers. Lewis and Reed were late first round picks; Ngata and Suggs were 12 and 10 respectively. (They also had good luck in in that their pro bowl talents who *somehow* stayed healthy for very long careers). So it was always going to be an interesting to see whether he could continue to build great teams once that cluster of hall of fame or near hall of fame talent stopped contributing as much, and particularly so after they had to start paying Flacco market..

So far, not good--26-29 since winning the superbowl with one playoff appearance is just not a great record over a fairly long period of time.
 

dcmissle

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It makes me so happy that since the Edelman to Amendola game, the Ravens are now 8-15. If they finish this season with 5 or 6 wins (which is possible) Harbaugh's seat has to start getting a little hot heading into next year. Right?

Newsome has also had some uncharacteristically poor drafts recently too. The roster is pretty crappy. Between the lack of talent and being stuck with Flacco, they may be digging out of the hole for another season or two.
It will be fascinating to watch. If he's not Frank Underwood, he may be the next Jeff Fisher. Really good at making sure the guy under the bus is not him. To the point of knifing a guy substantially responsible for his promotion from Eagles' ST coach to Ravens HC -- Bill Belichick.

Harbaugh is a dangerous prick. Then again, I think Bisciotti is too.
 

tims4wins

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Their record since their Super Bowl win is precisely why shit like Spygate and Deflategate turn into what they turn into. If Harbaugh and Ozzie are so good, and Flacco is elite, then why haven't they been able to consistently win over the last 4 years? The answer is it is damn hard. So then the question becomes, well why can the Patriots still win so much? Easy answer is Cheatriots.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Harbaugh already has Super Bowl and 6 winning seasons in 8 years. Jeff Fisher has an AFC Championship and 6 winning season in 21 years.

Harbaugh could retire tomorrow and have a better career than Fisher.
 

dcmissle

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They are good enough to win this game tonight, which they badly need. Even apart from freaky bounces and weird plays that accompany rain and cold. They have an excellent defense, play good special teams, can run the ball and have the best kicker in the League (and it's not even close at this point, even with Bailey in Dallas). So I'm concerned because we need the game as well.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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They are good enough to win this game tonight, which they badly need. Even apart from freaky bounces and weird plays that accompany rain and cold. They have an excellent defense, play good special teams, can run the ball and have the best kicker in the League (and it's not even close at this point, even with Bailey in Dallas). So I'm concerned because we need the game as well.
Agreed. I expect this to be a very tough physical game, always the case with this team. The demolition of Miami was pretty impressive, as was the win against Pittsburgh. I don't think they're among the league's elite but their defense can play with anyone and if they hit some long passes (or PIs) to Wallace, Perriman, and Smith that could be enough on offense.
 

IdiotKicker

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They have an excellent defense, play good special teams, can run the ball and have the best kicker in the League (and it's not even close at this point, even with Bailey in Dallas).
To put in perspective how good Tucker is this year, his average attempt is from 42.82 yards, which is 5 yards above the league average, and he still hasn't missed. If you average the last 5 years, there is one qualifying kicker who has even averaged over 40 yards per attempt (Greg Zuerlein), and he only made 79% of his kicks. What Tucker is doing this year is something you may only see a couple times in your life, and he could very well be the difference tonight.
 

Stitch01

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They are good enough to win this game tonight, which they badly need. Even apart from freaky bounces and weird plays that accompany rain and cold. They have an excellent defense, play good special teams, can run the ball and have the best kicker in the League (and it's not even close at this point, even with Bailey in Dallas). So I'm concerned because we need the game as well.
They dont really run the ball. They're not a bad team, they have a good defense, Tucker is good, it wouldnt be the upset of the century to win the game tonight, but the offense is bad by like any available metric besides "played a good game last week". It isnt a guarantee, but the Pats defense really should contain the Ravens running game fairly easily.

Luckily, the Pats dont need this game quite as much as they did a week ago.
 

NYCSox

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They dont really run the ball. They're not a bad team, they have a good defense, Tucker is good, it wouldnt be the upset of the century to win the game tonight, but the offense is bad by like any available metric besides "played a good game last week". It isnt a guarantee, but the Pats defense really should contain the Ravens running game fairly easily.

Luckily, the Pats dont need this game quite as much as they did a week ago.
Please don't let up tonight.

Signed,

a Steelers fan
 

bigq

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Baltimore did not look good on offense or defense last night and may have been blown out had it not been for two special teams plays that went their way deep in Pats' territory. Based on last night's performance alone Baltimore is not good however it is not prudent to draw conclusions based on just one game and in the broader context of comparing them to the rest of the NFL they may be.
 

BigSoxFan

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They look like a Wild Card calibre team, as they always seem to be. Defense and kicking game is good enough to rise up and steal a game in the playoffs so I'd prefer they sit it out. Plus, screw them.
 

Stitch01

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Predictably, they're likely to be capped at fringe playoff contender for the remainder of the Flacco contract.
 

uk_sox_fan

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They're actually in a fairly reasonable position to get into the playoffs since they're 4-0 in division and 7-3 in conference. Winning this weekend vs the Eagles is a must, of course, but shouldn't be too hard. Then they get a crack at Pit away - admittedly a tall order - which would put them in the driver's seat for the division and #3 seed. If they drop that game they won't catch Pit since the Steelers host the Brownies in the final week, but they'd still have a strong chance at the wild card by beating the Bengals (away) in their final game.

W L W would put them at 9-7 and 9-4 for the conference. They'd have to hope that neither Mia nor Den wins 2 games but at least Mia (sans Tannehill) has a tough @NYJ, @Buf and v NEP and Denver has a tougher v NEP, @KCC, v Oak for their last 3. Not really farfetched to see both slip up twice.

If that all happens they'd own all the 9-7 tiebreakers and claim the #6 seed for a rematch at Pittsburgh.
 

pokey_reese

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What amazed me yesterday was seeing how many people at ESPN and the like were talking about how the Ravens were able to stay in and hang tough with the Patriots, and how they had the mental fortitude to mount a comeback despite getting in a hole early, etc.. It's like they just looked at the final score and wrote an article based off of that. It isn't as though the Ravens offense mounted a few long drives when their backs were against the wall to get back in the game, or the defense made a ton of huge plays to stop the Pats offense. They did force the one fumble on special teams, but the first was was just dumb luck for them, getting the ball on the 2 yard line because our punt returner has a brain problem. I didn't see anything that made me think that the Ravens are 'good,' though in a season of parity I guess being the 15th best team in the league could be 'good enough' if the luck holds.
 

Stitch01

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They had a real good defensive stand to keep the game 16-0 too, but yeah, there's some narrative feeding.

DVOA has the Ravens 11th/weighted DVOA has them 9th. Maybe a touch high, but that feels about right. They didnt look good last night because a HOF quarterback with an elite offense shredded their best unit. There's only one Tom Brady, so most weeks the defense looks a lot better. Hard to look good when your defense looks bad and your trash offense does their usual thing.
 

SMU_Sox

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There aren't any thoroughly dominant teams this year and good is relative. Good compared to the rest of the field or good compared to other years? Either way I believe the Ravens are an unbalanced team who are above average overall. (Let's see how long Jimmy Smith is out).

Ravens:

Overall:

Net Points: 42, tied for 8th best.
Pro Football Reference has some straight forward stats like their simply rating system that I like to look at. Typically I compare the SRS (adjusting for HA or Away) to the point spread.
SRS: 2.1, 13th.
Overall DVOA: 8.7%, 11th
Overall weighted DVOA: 10.9%, 9th

Offense:
Points per game: 21.5, 21st
Yards per game: 347.7, 16th
Yards per play: 5.1, 24th
Yards per game passing: 261.7, 7th.
Yards per attempt passing, Flacco: 6.53, 29th.
Yards per game rushing: 86, 28th
Yards per attempt rushing: 3.7, 27th.
DVOA Offense: -11.8%, 27th (weighted: -9.9%, 25th)
DVOA Rushing Offense: -17.5%, 26th
DVOA Passing: -1.2%, 26th
OSRS: -2.1, 23rd

Defense:
Points per game: 18.2, 4th
Yards per game: 311.5, 4th
Yards per play: 5.1, 7th
Yards per game passing: 236.0, 11th.
Yards per attempt passing: 6.9, 11th.
Yards per game rushing: 75.5, 1st
Yards per attempt rushing: 3.4, 1st.
DVOA Defense: -15.5%, 2nd (weighted: -15.2%, 2nd)
DVOA Rushing Defense: -34.8%, 1st
DVOA Passing Defense: -3.9%, 7th
DSRS: 4.1, 5th

They also have Justin Tucker as their kicker - he's been my fantasy MVP (if that doesn't tell you the depressing story of my AP, Doug Martin, and Jamaal Charles team I don't know what would).

The ravens are like a carnival fun-house mirror. They are nearly as bad running the ball as they are good at defending the run and the same is true for passing. But because of Tucker, and their strong defense the Ravens are an above average team in the ledger.

Edit: Stitch beat me to some of those stats.