Best Defensive Catcher in Red Sox History: Nominations

[BosRedSox5]

Hey guys, 

We've done these kind of best ______ in Red Sox history threads before, and it seems like it might be fun to debate the best defensive players in the history of the club. So, let's have a round of nominations. Who do you think deserves a nomination for the best defensive catcher in Red Sox history and why? 

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Off the top of my head, I'd rank them Pena, Fisk, Tek in that order. 
 
I believe they all won Gold Gloves for the Sox, but Tony Pena would be my #1 if we're taking offense out of it. Obviously he wasn't here long, but as long as it isn't a lifetime achievement award, he gets my vote.

 

[ookami7m]

Hard to argue with the list that Paul just threw out there. Pena even at the end of his career was still deadly for runners (not looking up stats, just remembering the awe of watching him throw out people without standing up). I may put Tek slightly above Pudge for defense only but it's close.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

Great idea, BSR5, but it's awfully difficult to judge the defense of players you haven't personally seen.  Were Sammy White, Bill Carrigan, Rick Terrell, or Birdie Tebbetts an outstanding defensive catcher?  I have no earthly idea.
 
That said, I'm probably older than most of you whippersnappers.  And I have to agree with the comment above -- Tony Pena was the one exceptional defensive catcher I can remember in my fandom.
 
Would add this -- it's easy to forget how good Tek was defensively in the first part of his career, as he just couldn't throw anybody out in the last part.

 

[URI]

Hard to argue with the list that Paul just threw out there. Pena even at the end of his career was still deadly for runners (not looking up stats, just remembering the awe of watching him throw out people without standing up). I may put Tek slightly above Pudge for defense only but it's close.

 
Here I'll do it for you...
 
1990:  -2% league average
1991:  -1%
1992:  -1%
1993:  +1%
 
So by deadly, you mean average.  He was deadly when he was in his 20s for Pittsburgh and St Louis, but he basically was average once he hit 30 with the Cardinals.
 

it's awfully difficult to judge the defense of players you haven't personally seen.  

 
It's awfully difficult to judge the defense of players you HAVE personally seen.

 

[BosRedSox5]

 
It's awfully difficult to judge the defense of players you HAVE personally seen.

 
Right. That's what I thought would make this a bit more fun as well. We have tons of information at our disposal when it comes to finding the best hitter, but with defense, it's tough. Thought it'd garner a bit more debate and some discussion about defensive metrics. 

 

[Hank Scorpio]

As an addendum to this thread, I want to throw this question out there:
 
Do you consider game calling / handling of the pitching staff a "defensive skill", or something else entirely?
 
Should it be taken into consideration when awarding gold gloves?

 

[BosRedSox5]

I would think game calling and staff handling would fall under defensive skills since, it doesn't really fit anyplace else yet it's still important... but that's why I figured I'd have a nominations thread first. Anyway, since defense can be so subjective, people can argue whatever they like when it comes time to vote. 

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

I'm on my phone but I'd be willing to bet if Pena was just average at throwing out runners in 1990, he probably led the league in games and innings caught. And I'll check that and his passed ball stats later as well.

 

[ookami7m]

 
Here I'll do it for you...
 
1990:  -2% league average
1991:  -1%
1992:  -1%
1993:  +1%
 
So by deadly, you mean average.  He was deadly when he was in his 20s for Pittsburgh and St Louis, but he basically was average once he hit 30 with the Cardinals.
 
 
It's awfully difficult to judge the defense of players you HAVE personally seen.

 
Wow, my 10 year old self is stunned. 
 

As an addendum to this thread, I want to throw this question out there:
 
Do you consider game calling / handling of the pitching staff a "defensive skill", or something else entirely?
 
Should it be taken into consideration when awarding gold gloves?

 
I think game calling is very much a part of the defense, but quite likely harder to quantify

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

I realize some people throw out Rick Ferrell's name as one of the worst Hall of Famers of all time, but he was a pretty special defensive catcher by all accounts.  One year with the Sox he threw out 60% of the runners.  He only played 5 season with Boston but they were his prime years - age 27 through 31.  

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Wasn't Gary Allenson a pretty strong defensive catcher? My vague memory is that Houk loved him for his defense even though he could barely hit his weight.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Regarding Fisk vs. Varitek .. The main difference between the two would be in arm strength where Fisk had a much stronger arm. Otherwise .. Through a rather foggy lens .. I don't think there would be much to choose between them. No clue as to pitch calling ability .. Varitek, of course, had a great reputation

 

[BosRedSox5]

I don't doubt that Fisk was a terrific catcher with a strong arm, but didn't Tek play on a lot of teams where the slide step wasn't utilized? The Sox seemed generally unconcerned with baserunners during his time here... unless you count John Burkett making 30 pickoff throws a game. 

 

[Dick Drago]

I don't think Allenson was particularly good as a receiver or a thrower. He had a way of flipping the ball that made his throws sail. Fisk had a terrific arm, especially before his injuries took their toll.

 

[EddieYost]

Wasn't Gary Allenson a pretty strong defensive catcher? My vague memory is that Houk loved him for his defense even though he could barely hit his weight.

 
My recollection is that he was pretty average behind the plate.  Maybe it's because I was mad that he was back there instead of Fisk, but I don't recall him being a defense stud.

 

[RoDaddy]

Mike Ryan was strong defensively, the only reason he stuck in the bigs for 10 years despite a lifetime .193 average

 

[reggiecleveland]

Rick Ferrell is in the HOF iand had a rep of being a defensive catcher. He made 4 consecutive all star teams with the Sox and put up dWAR of 1.9 over 5 years. He is in the conversation at least.

 

[EricFeczko]

Wally Schang was purported to be an excellent defensive catcher.
 
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/629ca705
 

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

No love for Rich Gedman? His 84-86 seasons are right up there with the best of them.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

No love for Rich Gedman? His 84-86 seasons are right up there with the best of them.

 
Except for that one pitch in that one game in Shea Stadium.
 
Though in his defense, they rode him like a dog all year...it's a wonder he could move at all at that point.

 

[Bone Chips]

There's no minimum qualifier for games played, so how about Buddy Rosar?  He didn't play a lot, but when he did he was one of the best defensive catchers the game has ever seen.  How many backups are named to 5 all-star teams?  He played for the Sox for only two years at the tail end of his career in 1950-51, and only appeared in 85 games.  But in his career he set several defensive catching records, and his caught stealing % of 54.5% ranks 3rd all-time.  He had only 28 passed balls in his 934 games played - the lowest percentage ever.  His fielding % of .992 was highest in history when he retired.  And he gets bonus points for being insubordinate to Yankee manager Joe McCarthy.

 

[bakahump]

Varitek was so much better before the broken elbow catch.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Though in his defense, they rode him like a dog all year...it's a wonder he could move at all at that point.
 

 
These are the wacky types of things that can occur when the owner makes you keep his son on the team for the majority of four seasons.
 
Marc Sullivan was probably the worst backup catcher the Red Sox ever employed.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Except for that one pitch in that one game in Shea Stadium.

We don't have to talk about that....

Honestly though those three seasons have to be the best run of any Red Sox catcher defensively. He amassed 5.5 dWAR over that time. Fisk comes close with 5.2 from 76-78.

 

[joe dokes]

Moe Berg worked for the OSS.  Does that count as offense or defense?

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

We don't have to talk about that....

Honestly though those three seasons have to be the best run of any Red Sox catcher defensively. He amassed 5.5 dWAR over that time. Fisk comes close with 5.2 from 76-78.

This is so out of line with my memories of him . I always thought of him as a good offensive guy with mediocre at best defensive skills . I guess that Pitch That Shall Not Be Named left a lasting impression .

 

[redsoxstiff]

Pena ,Fisk,Varitec and maybe Sammy White whose change of batting stance occurred every year , I remember...But at my age WTF who knows...?

 

[charlieoscar]

 
Rick Ferrell is in the HOF iand had a rep of being a defensive catcher. He made 4 consecutive all star teams with the Sox and put up dWAR of 1.9 over 5 years. He is in the conversation at least.
 

 
He had to do something because his brother, the pitcher, was definitely the better hitter. 

 

[MalzoneExpress]

How about Birdie Tebbetts? I never saw him play, but I remember my dad telling me what a great defensive catcher he was.

 

[jose melendez]

Tek was pretty well below average on caught stealing % for most of his career.  The MLB average over the 15 years he was in the bigs was 30%.  He never did better than 38% and from 2004 on, he never did better than 24%.
 
Fisk, by contrast, put up some sick years throwing out runners, mid to high 30%s in his years with the Sox.

 

[gryoung]

For ones who I actually saw play:

1. Pena
2. Fisk
3. Tek

 

[Toe Nash]

We don't have PitchFX data on it, but Varitek has some exceptional seasons in BP's attempts to quantify pitch framing (2 of the top 20 between 1988 and 2008): 
 
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=25514

 

[iayork]

We don't have PitchFX data on it, but Varitek has some exceptional seasons in BP's attempts to quantify pitch framing (2 of the top 20 between 1988 and 2008): 
 
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=25514

That's really interesting.  And, impressively, in their minor league analysis, Blake Swihart ranks very high as a framer -- 3rd-best in AA. Considering he's valued based on his offense, that's pretty exciting.