Betts/Price to LA for Verdugo/Jeter Downs/TBA

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tbb345

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Oh I understand.
LeBron is widely respected, but not loved. Like, he'll never be beloved like Kobe.
I don't want to derail the thread but to echo a few other posters who responded to you, I think this train of thought is really off base. I think LeBron is plenty loved around the world and is one of the few athletes who transcends their sport.
I don't think Mookie has reached that level yet and I'm not sure he ever will. (Also, LeBron is pretty much the unquestioned best player of his generation which makes him much more like Trout than Mookie)
 

The Filthy One

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I don't want to derail the thread but to echo a few other posters who responded to you, I think this train of thought is really off base. I think LeBron is plenty loved around the world and is one of the few athletes who transcends their sport.
I don't think Mookie has reached that level yet and I'm not sure he ever will. (Also, LeBron is pretty much the unquestioned best player of his generation which makes him much more like Trout than Mookie)
I would argue that the days of a baseball player reaching that level are gone. Trout hasn't reached that level, and I don't see anyone else in the game today with a chance.
 

JimD

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Sale and Eovaldi make a combined $46 million AAV this year. Boston just saved $43 million to get under the cap. There would have been no luxury tax pressure to move Betts minus those extensions. And there would be no luxury tax pressure to deal Betts, even though there would still be reasons to move him.
If the Red Sox were going to keep Betts for 2020, they would expect to compete for the playoffs. Would they be a playoff team with a starting rotation of Eduardo Rodriguez, Martin Perez and a bunch of question marks (and only $16 million to fill those slots and whatever other needs they still have)?
 

santadevil

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Also, I can't believe that in my time as a Red Sox fan, I've seen them trade Jeff Bagwell's entire career for a one month rental of a middle reliever, and now on the flip side, trade away a full season rental of an MVP candidate for two middling prospects.

Thanks again, Lou Gorman
Except this is the complete opposite situation. We aren't taking on a rental, we gave away the big name at the time

This seems like an unlikely first two months on the Sox calendar:


You're right, it is a funny first two months...mine are January and February
 

brandonchristensen

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I would argue that the days of a baseball player reaching that level are gone. Trout hasn't reached that level, and I don't see anyone else in the game today with a chance.
David Ortiz did. Jeter did. Pedro did. Mariano did. Etc.

I think Trout not doing that is inherently in the east coast bias.

Except this is the complete opposite situation. We aren't taking on a rental, we gave away the big name at the time


You're right, it is a funny first two months...mine are January and February
I meant of the season, but whatever.
 

nighthob

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If the Red Sox were going to keep Betts for 2020, they would expect to compete for the playoffs. Would they be a playoff team with a starting rotation of Eduardo Rodriguez, Martin Perez and a bunch of question marks (and only $16 million to fill those slots and whatever other needs they still have)?
One, that very well could be their rotation, outside of David Price, anyway. (EDIT: For clarity, had they let Eovaldi walk and not signed Sale to that extension, Price would be their top of the rotation starter in your theoretical) Because who knows how healthy Sale & Eovaldi will be.

Two, those are, as I indicated, amongst the many good reasons to move Betts even if the luxury tax wasn’t a consideration. But everyone knowing that they had to slash payroll made it a tough road to hoe.

Three, I’d feel a whole lot better if Gammons was right for once and there was international signing money going to Boston in the deal. Because they could then make a pitch to Colas, including an offer of a starting RF spot for the Red Sox after they’re forced to cut ties with Verdugo (due to public pressure).
 
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Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I'm guessing he probably meant that he wanted to stay this season.
That makes sense, and would also make the quote seem a bit disingenuous...."I wanted to stay, but only until I could leave (or not) on my terms." Which is fine in itself--nothing wrong with wanting to control your destiny--but then don't spin it as "if only they had wanted me".
 

donutogre

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David Ortiz did. Jeter did. Pedro did. Mariano did. Etc.

I think Trout not doing that is inherently in the east coast bias.



I meant of the season, but whatever.
When Oritiz is the youngest player on this list, I think you might be proving the opposite point you're trying to make. Obviously we're all baseball nuts here, but individual players just don't make waves in the public at large these days, not compared to someone like LeBron anyway.
 

Devizier

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See Savin Hillbilly’s trade simulator link. Bloom won on value massively.
Where do those values come from? Projections like STEAMER? Crowdsourcing? I've seen people using the simulator quite a bit lately and I have NFI how it works, exactly.
 

santadevil

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Yep. Told my 7-year old this morning. His eyes went wide and he asked me, "who did we get?" And that's where it went bad. Then we had a long talk about free agency and Curt Flood and arbitration and team control and the salary cap. I think he got it intellectually, which actually surprised me since he still laughs really hard when I fart and blame it on his baby sister.

No tears. I think kids will just have to get used to this as the new world order. Clemens leaving really felt like the exception when I was 12. This is just the way it is now. I told him we root for the laundry and I'll still buy us the MLB.tv package.

But he did swap out the Mookie card that has always been tucked into the plastic on the binding of his baseball card album for a Xander.
I finally told the little guy after he was done school today. He's 5 and when I told him, he says "Whatever, I still like Mookie. Now I can cheer for two teams."

Like water off a ducks back. I feel there is a lesson many of us could learn here, but in my fandom, I don't think I want to
 

brandonchristensen

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When Oritiz is the youngest player on this list, I think you might be proving the opposite point you're trying to make. Obviously we're all baseball nuts here, but individual players just don't make waves in the public at large these days, not compared to someone like LeBron anyway.
If you want to go more recently... someone like Aaron Judge is on his way. Christian Yelich too.

I do agree that it's less and less, though.
 

Plympton91

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I made it through 14 of the current 17 pages.

I was resigned to fact that trading Mookie made more sense than not trading him, because the probability of losing him next fall for nothing but a 4th round pick was intolerable.

I was resigned to fact that David Price’s contract would have to be heavily subsidized. I am surprised that teams apparently value him less than Ryu, but ok.

That said, I am totally alarmed by the return. Neither of these players had a healthy 2019. Verdugo’s back injury should have made him a non-starter in this discussion. Graterol’s pre-existing TJ surgery and shoulder impingement severely lessens his value relative to his raw stuff as well.

And the fact that the Twins, who know Graterol’s medicals the best, traded him for Kenta Maeda is bringing back the same misgivings I had about the Sale contract. Graterol should not have been available for Maeda. That he was, hangs a very big “Buyer Beware” sign on him in my mind.
 

Salem's Lot

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I made it through 14 of the current 17 pages.

I was resigned to fact that trading Mookie made more sense than not trading him, because the probability of losing him next fall for nothing but a 4th round pick was intolerable.

I was resigned to fact that David Price’s contract would have to be heavily subsidized. I am surprised that teams apparently value him less than Ryu, but ok.

That said, I am totally alarmed by the return. Neither of these players had a healthy 2019. Verdugo’s back injury should have made him a non-starter in this discussion. Graterol’s pre-existing TJ surgery and shoulder impingement severely lessens his value relative to his raw stuff as well.

And the fact that the Twins, who know Graterol’s medicals the best, traded him for Kenta Maeda is bringing back the same misgivings I had about the Sale contract. Graterol should not have been available for Maeda. That he was, hangs a very big “Buyer Beware” sign on him in my mind.
I’m assuming you mean medicals, and I completely agree. I can’t decide if its the shoulder impingement or the fact that he’s already 265 lb and seems to be gaining fat every year that’s more alarming. Either way the fact that he was available for Maeda is a huge red flag. I wouldn’t be shocked if either of these guys failed the physical. Then we’ll be able to tell if this was really about the salary dump if it still goes through.
 

scottyno

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Where do those values come from? Projections like STEAMER? Crowdsourcing? I've seen people using the simulator quite a bit lately and I have NFI how it works, exactly.
For major leaguers it seems like they basically just use a combination of projections to determine value relative to salary, for minor leaguers it seems more ambiguous, but they include prospect rankings and then make some adjustments.

https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/valuing-minor-leaguers/
 

RedOctober3829

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I’m assuming you mean medicals, and I completely agree. I can’t decide if its the shoulder impingement or the fact that he’s already 265 lb and seems to be gaining fat every year that’s more alarming. Either way the fact that he was available for Maeda is a huge red flag. I wouldn’t be shocked if either of these guys failed the physical. Then we’ll be able to tell if this was really about the salary dump if it still goes through.
I'm not sure Graterol being available for Maeda is a huge red flag. The Twins needed another veteran SP on a win-now team and Maeda comes very cheap plus he can go in the pen as well. Graterol may still flame out as a prospect, but Maeda is signed for the next 4 years at $3.125 million/yr. That's a ton of value and Graterol is a fair ask for that.
 

Cokes311

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For all the haters on this, does anything that happens on the field negate this? If they win another WS in the next 3 years with Verdugo in RF is all forgiven?
World Series within 3 years with Verdugo not on the team at all would be better than winning one with a guy who has had the (alleged) off field issues he has had. I can't in good conscience root for a team that employs someone who has treated women the way he (allegedly) has, especially when it comes at the expense of a player who is by all accounts also a wonderful guy
 

high cheese

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I could care less about a trade simulator’s evaluation, any fool can look at the trade and see that the Dodgers absolutely killed it.

The Red Sox got hosed, two maybes (and one a huge risk) coming back and no one to spend their savings on for this season and few clear fits for next.

The wrecking ball is swinging and who knows where it will stop, these owners are every bit as bad as they are good.
 

bosockboy

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World Series within 3 years with Verdugo not on the team at all would be better than winning one with a guy who has had the (alleged) off field issues he has had. I can't in good conscience root for a team that employs someone who has treated women the way he (allegedly) has, especially when it comes at the expense of a player who is by all accounts also a wonderful guy
Why are you hanging around here then?
 

JM3

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I could care less about a trade simulator’s evaluation, any fool can look at the trade and see that the Dodgers absolutely killed it.

The Red Sox got hosed, two maybes (and one a huge risk) coming back and no one to spend their savings on for this season and few clear fits for next.

The wrecking ball is swinging and who knows where it will stop, these owners are every bit as bad as they are good.
Red Sox owners from 1919 to 2001:
Seasons: 83
World Series Wins: 0

Current ownership from 2002 to 2019:
Seasons: 18
World Series Wins: 4

They're ok with me.
 

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I could care less about a trade simulator’s evaluation, any fool can look at the trade and see that the Dodgers absolutely killed it.

The Red Sox got hosed, two maybes (and one a huge risk) coming back and no one to spend their savings on for this season and few clear fits for next.

The wrecking ball is swinging and who knows where it will stop, these owners are every bit as bad as they are good.
How much less could you care? And is it really all fools or just some of you? I'm really trying to understand these advanced analytics.
 
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Imbricus

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I skipped through this thread, and if anyone already posted this, apologies. But, for "grade the trade," sportswriters didn't think much of this move by the Red Sox.

I looked at four "grades," including one from Sports Illustrated and one from Sporting News, and for the Red Sox they were:

D, C, D, D

On the bright side, the Sox are under the luxury tax threshold, I guess.
 

E5 Yaz

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How much less could you care? And is it really all fools or just some of you? I'm really trying to understand these advance analytics.
Here, this will help

I skipped through this thread, and if anyone already posted this, apologies. But, for "grade the trade," sportswriters didn't think much of this move by the Red Sox.

I looked at four "grades," including one from Sports Illustrated and one from Sporting News, and for the Red Sox they were:

D, C, D, D
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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Red Sox owners from 1919 to 2001:
Seasons: 83
World Series Wins: 0

Current ownership from 2002 to 2019:
Seasons: 18
World Series Wins: 4

They're ok with me.
Exactly. People really love to overreact.
 

scottyno

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I skipped through this thread, and if anyone already posted this, apologies. But, for "grade the trade," sportswriters didn't think much of this move by the Red Sox.

I looked at four "grades," including one from Sports Illustrated and one from Sporting News, and for the Red Sox they were:

D, C, D, D

On the bright side, the Sox are under the luxury tax threshold, I guess.
Bradford Doolittle and Dave Schoenfeld on espn insider gave the Sox a B+ and an A
 

Marciano490

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It’d be great if one of the doctors could chime in, but isn’t it usually more worrisome if an athlete has an injury that can’t be diagnosed, like a lingering back issue, than one that shows up and can be subjected to a treatment protocol?

Undiagnosable, long-lasting health issues sounds like Ellsburitis and make me wary.
 

JM3

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If I had to guess, I'd say the Red Sox are planning to protest Verdugo's physical for purposes of negotiating an additional A-ball flyer or 2 & then roll over. No one is making me guess, though, so I won't.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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If I had to guess, I'd say the Red Sox are planning to protest Verdugo's physical for purposes of negotiating an additional A-ball flyer or 2 & then roll over. No is making me guess, though, so I won't.
Or they saw the negative reacton and are using the physicas as an out. It's also possible Graterol is the one who failed the physical. Or even Price.
 

StuckOnYouk

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I would assume his back was brought up over the past few weeks - I'd assume there is a contingency plan in place in case the Sox docs don't like how his back looks....rather than L.A. just pulling back completely on the trade.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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At least try to use the back injury to get a SP or Downs. Not freaking likely but I can always hold out hope.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yeah if someone did fail a physical, I dunno why everyone's convinced it's Verdugo and not the guy who has already had TJ surgery and other problems.

edit: would also explain why he was available for Maeda.
 

ponch73

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Well... That and the downside of the 2018 World Series is that the Sox brain-trust fell in love with the team. Re-signed Eovaldi, Pearce, and gave Sale a megabucks contract extension. This current scenario is why I may be a little more forgiving should they be more cold-hearted if/when the Sox win another championship.
This is dead on. Despite being over his credit limit, Dombrowski was still buying drinks for everybody in the bar. The Sale deal was an absolute head-scratcher, especially after seeing how Sale struggled with injuries in 2018. It's almost as if Sale's heroic closeout of game 5 was all that Dombrowski remembered of the 2018 season.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah if someone did fail a physical, I dunno why everyone's convinced it's Verdugo and not the guy who has already had TJ surgery and other problems.

edit: would also explain why he was available for Maeda.
I don't know why anyone's convinced that anyone failed a physical.
 

fiskful of dollars

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It’d be great if one of the doctors could chime in, but isn’t it usually more worrisome if an athlete has an injury that can’t be diagnosed, like a lingering back issue, than one that shows up and can be subjected to a treatment protocol?

Undiagnosable, long-lasting health issues sounds like Ellsburitis and make me wary.

Not really. Structural back damage is usu pretty easy to diagnose. Things like spondylolithesis, spinal stenosis, disc issues, ligamentous injury, nerve root impingement are pretty easy to spot on MRI (and even plain x-rays in some conditions). Alternatively, these scans can uncover some unusual medical issues - like Lester's incidental lymphoma dx. Generally, pain without a known cause is NOT a cause for concern in most patients. An MLB player is a slightly different medical specimen but I believe the axiom still holds.

Edit: clarity
 

JimD

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Or they saw the negative reacton and are using the physicas as an out. It's also possible Graterol is the one who failed the physical. Or even Price.
I'm pretty sure the negative fan reaction was fully expected by everyone in Red Sox management.
 

E5 Yaz

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Verdugo's back might not be bad enough to cancel the deal, but it could be used as leverage to get something else from the Dodgers
 
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