Brock Holt: Look! Something Shiny!

[TheoShmeo]

 
Are you talking about that running catch? To me that was the very definition of his inexperience out there making a tough but routine play seem much more difficult. There's little question in my mind a guy like Victorino or Nava runs that ball down without nearly as much drama.

This is not a winnable argument but saying a Gold Glover would get to that ball isn't saying much.
 
As to Nava, I have a lot of trouble seeing him make that play.  Reasonable minds can differ. 
 
That said, your point about Holt's inexperience ratcheting up the degree of difficulty is a fair one.  But it's not binary, and his athleticism helped him there and I daresay it will again going forward.  

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

This is not a winnable argument but saying a Gold Glover would get to that ball isn't saying much.
 
As to Nava, I have a lot of trouble seeing him make that play.  Reasonable minds can differ. 
 
That said, your point about Holt's inexperience ratcheting up the degree of difficulty is a fair one.  But it's not binary, and his athleticism helped him there and I daresay it will again going forward.  

 
This is all a fair rebuttal. Just a good point to keep in mind that catches that look difficult to make sometimes aren't for more experienced fielders.
 
In any case, given how hot Holt is with the bat right now, finding playing time for him in the field now that Napoli's back is creative and it's helping the team, as long as he doesn't muff too many plays out there.

 

[joe dokes]

My first thought on Holt's catch was "can't wait for the new MLBAM tracking stuff to tell me if that was a great play or not." 
 
I thought his plays on both of Suarez's ground singles were better--on the first, he took the right angle to cut the ball off before it went to the wall, and showed a pretty strong and accurate arm; on the second -- the one that drove in the 3rd run -- an inexperienced LF could be excused for throwing towards home to try and do something about the runner coming from 2B, but he made the right play throwing to 2nd, keeping the batter at 1st, and the next guy grounded into a DP.
 

Score one for people who say, "These guys are athletes, they should be able to play LF competently."
 

 
I remain a doubter, but nobody gets to score anything after 1 game. 

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

 
This is all a fair rebuttal. Just a good point to keep in mind that catches that look difficult to make sometimes aren't for more experienced fielders.
 
In any case, given how hot Holt is with the bat right now, finding playing time for him in the field now that Napoli's back is creative and it's helping the team, as long as he doesn't muff too many plays out there.

 
Easy:

1) Holt is your DH
2) Ortiz goes to 1B
3) Make Napoli catch.
 
Problems solved.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Although it was interesting watching him do a pretty good job at 1B himself, considering he's never had a spring training to learn the position or to learn what groundballs and popups he should go for or how to underhand toss the ball to the pitcher, etc.

 

[nvalvo]

About JBJ: I think it's fair to say that Farrell is as free to experiment in the OF corners as he is because Bradley has very good range. If we had Sizemore (or similar) in CF, Farrell would be gunshy about using someone like Holt in left. 

 

[SumnerH]

I gotta disagree on JBJ. Very good defensively but he's one of the worst offensive players in baseball, and getting worse if anything.They can't keep playing him. What comps do people have of guys like this- who are very good defensively but a total void on offense, with not even any SB ability to provide some value?

 
 
From 2003-2009 Adam Everett averaged 2.0 rWAR on .247/.297/.356 hitting (OPS+ of 69).  60SB and 20CS over 7 years is no significant value on the basepaths.

 

[mabrowndog]

Batting average is a shitty statistic with major limitations. Except in this case:
 

 
Jared Carrabis ‏@Jared_Carrabis 
Since being called up on April 18 (min. 120 plate appearances), Brock Holt is 8th in the MLB and 4th in the AL in batting average (.339).

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

 
 
From 2003-2009 Adam Everett averaged 2.0 rWAR on .247/.297/.356 hitting (OPS+ of 69).  60SB and 20CS over 7 years is no significant value on the basepaths.

 
John McDonald put up 5.6 rWAR over seven seasons in Toronto with an OPS+ of 63 and just 26 SB against 12 CS. 
 
2.4 of that rWAR came in 2007 when he had an OPS+ of 61 (coincidentally right where JBJ is right now) over 123 games.
 
Edit: Maybe Doug Glanville is a good comp, since at the same position? He put up 8.6 brefWAR in 6 seasons with the Phils, during which he had an OPS+ of 79, though 4 of that WAR came in 1999 when he had an OPS+ of 107.  
 
Still, his first three years were 62, 88, 83 and he didn't steal many bags - 168 for his career is pretty good, I guess. 

 

[seantoo]

 
There's one more reason why Pedroia isn't going anywhere: his .870/.767 career home/road OPS split. He has a highly Fenway-optimized offensive game, and is therefore worth considerably more to the Red Sox than to any other team. Transplant him, and he's just a real good defensive 2B, with slightly better-than-average offense, on the wrong side of 30. His contract becomes less of a steal and closer to a break-even proposition. So I think you would be surprised at what a modest return he'd bring even now.

Short of extremes, (Beltre in Seatle) many players adjust to THEIR home park, therefore I declare this point moot. I don't expect a boatload for him but I do think in the right package he could fetch what we need, a good OF'er with a year or two  left of arb. elegibility or a top OF prospect with a useful MR thrown in.

 

[seantoo]

No, my preference for one logo shows the recognition of Dustin Pedroia as a generational talent, the kind who have many, many times in the past been highly valuable players into their late 30's.  Until we have nine guys better than Pedroia he's not the problem, and I don't see us having 9 guys better before Dustin turns 38 short of him suffering a serious injury.
 
All players have some sort of nagging issue.  Maybe it's a wrist, a knee, a back, etc..  Elite players can still produce through those problems.  Pedroia still produces through those problems.  Moving Pedroia now isn't moving him a year too early as opposed to a year to late, it's moving him 6-8 years too early entirely based on the fear that in 6 years we'll be looking to move him one year too late.
 
In short, it's a stance built on age inspired paranoia and wish-casting on prospects who haven't even arrived yet.  The notion that Pedroia is more valuable to some team than he is to the Red Sox for the next half decade or more is completely untrue.  The notion that Pedroia is somehow currently or likely to be in the near future an anchor blocking better players from getting on the field is also completely untrue.  There is literally zero rational basis for trading Pedroia.

Other than your hyperbole and request for how players age before the streroid era (your criteria by the way, which actually works against your argument and there is no room for debate here) as well as the fact he's a small player who because of his all out style of play has little to no power left for a few years now. You are already on record as stating that you want his HOF plaque to have 1 hat. That whether or not you are aware of it shows how biased your fanboyism is.  The Sox will not contend for likely two years, and those are two more years removed from Pedrio's prime (just past) years. I'm being logical and your being emotional. Emotions have NOTHING to do with building the next great Red Sox team which is the claim of Ben C. and that's where my rational is building toward. Separate emotion from fact and your just might see it as I do. From 24 to 27 his OPS+ was above 123 3 times, from 28 on it has been 115, 114 and 102 the past 3 years with an increasing amount of finger and wrist injuries, Do you think based on this information that a small player who plays balls out has a good chance to age gracefully?. If so I would love to play poker with you as I have a few things I would like to add to the house.

 

[Plympton91]

Other than your hyperbole and request for how players age before the streroid era (your criteria by the way, which actually works against your argument and there is no room for debate here) as well as the fact he's a small player who because of his all out style of play has little to no power left for a few years now. You are already on record as stating that you want his HOF plaque to have 1 hat. That whether or not you are aware of it shows how biased your fanboyism is.  The Sox will not contend for likely two years, and those are two more years removed from Pedrio's prime (just past) years. I'm being logical and your being emotional. Emotions have NOTHING to do with building the next great Red Sox team which is the claim of Ben C. and that's where my rational is building toward. Separate emotion from fact and your just might see it as I do. From 24 to 27 his OPS+ was above 123 3 times, from 28 on it has been 115, 114 and 102 the past 3 years with an increasing amount of finger and wrist injuries, Do you think based on this information that a small player who plays balls out has a good chance to age gracefully?. If so I would love to play poker with you as I have a few things I would like to add to the house.

 
Is winning the only acceptable objective criteria for a baseball fan?
 
If not, why aren't we all rooting for the Yankees.  They're the most "successful" organization in history by that standard.
 
By your calculations, the Yawkeys should have traded Yaz.  If they had, I would have missed out on one of the greatest moments I ever had with my parents.  That isn't worth another world series or two.  There's more to baseball than winning.  And if you disagree, I can't imagine why you root for the Boston Red Sox, unless you're under the age of 15 or so.

 

[SumnerH]

 
Is winning the only acceptable objective criteria for a baseball fan?
 
If not, why aren't we all rooting for the Yankees.  They're the most "successful" organization in history by that standard.

It's played out, but we root for the laundry. If you trade the entire Red Sox roster for the Yankees roster, by Friday we're all-or 80% of us-rooting for the boys in Fenway and booing Pedroia et al in the evil pinstripes.

 

[BosRedSox5]

Holt is playing RF today. I'm loving this. He's definitely got some real flexibility. 

 

[BosRedSox5]

https://twitter.com/TimBritton/status/478976977244651520
 
Holt is playing CF tonight. That means in his major league career he'll have played every position except shortstop, catcher and pitcher... and he's played more games at short than any other position in his pro career. (And at this point I'd venture a guess that he's probably the team's emergency catcher if a 3rd was ever needed.)
 
I love having a player with this kind of flexibility. We might not be winning, but it's fun in a way to see a guy like Holt come out of nowhere and be our leadoff man as he jumps all over the field. 

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Wakefield just referred to Brock as "the most humblest person."

That seems definitive.

 

[OttoC]

...
Holt is playing CF tonight. That means in his major league career he'll have played every position except shortstop, catcher and pitcher... and he's played more games at short than any other position in his pro career. (And at this point I'd venture a guess that he's probably the team's emergency catcher if a 3rd was ever needed.)
...

And he still is eligible for Rookie-of-the-Year.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Wakefield just referred to Brock as "the most humblest person."

That seems definitive.

Be kind to your web-footed friends. How about a smart-off with Rice?

 

[TheYaz67]

I'm just aghast that we took Shannon Wilkerson with the 258th pick, just before Brock went #265 in the 2009 draft...

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

And he still is eligible for Rookie-of-the-Year.

 
Unbelievable. At this point it has to be considered something a lot more than a hot streak, right? Where do we draw the line re: SSS?

 

[brandonchristensen]

 
Unbelievable. At this point it has to be considered something a lot more than a hot streak, right? Where do we draw the line re: SSS?

Let's wait for 200 AB's.
 
Also, reposting because he deserves it:
 

 

 

[BosRedSox5]

 
Unbelievable. At this point it has to be considered something a lot more than a hot streak, right? Where do we draw the line re: SSS?

He's always been a decent hitter in the minors. Looks like a genuine major leaguer to me.

 

[threecy]

Player 1 - Infielder drafted in the 9th round
Player 2 - Infielder drafted in the 7th round
 
Player 1 A  .299/.361/.449 (810 OPS)
Player 2 A .263/.365/.296 (661 OPS)
Player 1 A+  .351/.410/.438 (848 OPS)
Player 2 A+ .332/..423/.382 (805 OPS)
Player 1 AA .302/..370/.406 (777 OPS)
Player 2 AA .318/.411/.374 (784 OPS)
Player 1 AAA .304/.368/.385 (752 OPS)
Player 2 AAA .322/.418/.416 (834 OPS)
 
Player 1 = Brock Holt
Player 2 = Wade Boggs
I'm not suggesting that a good early 2014 means Brock Holt is the next Wade Boggs, but I think it's interesting to look at their minor league stats, as well as how they weren't highly touted draft picks/prospects.

 

 

[Max Power]

Cherington sure fleeced the Pirates when he was able to get Holt from the Pirates for just Mark Melancon and some spare parts.

 

[HillysLastWalk]

Player 1 - Infielder drafted in the 9th round
Player 2 - Infielder drafted in the 7th round* 3 years younger, no college experience, would love to know league average offense (just to be fair!)

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

https://twitter.com/Marc_Normandin/status/479063312207183872/photo/1

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

 

[TomTerrific]

 

Player 1 - Infielder drafted in the 9th round
Player 2 - Infielder drafted in the 7th round* 3 years younger, no college experience, would love to know league average offense (just to be fair!)

 

 
Yup. Thanks for injecting some much-needed perspective into this. Move along folks...

 

[BosRedSox5]

Whatever. I think that we can all agree that just as Pedroia is the real number 15, Brock Holt is the real number 26. 

 

[CoRP]

This deserves a photoshop (like the Holt statue)...and to be turned into a t-shirt.

 

[Mike F]

Cherington sure fleeced the Pirates when he was able to get Holt from the Pirates for just Mark Melancon and some spare parts.

I wonder what the SoSH board thought about this
last June. Guess that's why we have to wait a few
years before judging trades.

 

[brandonchristensen]

This deserves a photoshop (like the Holt statue)...and to be turned into a t-shirt.

I was working on that one first but it looked really creepy so I abandoned it.

 

[joe dokes]

Position? Position? I dont need no stinkin' position.

 

[nvalvo]

I wonder what the SoSH board thought about this
last June. Guess that's why we have to wait a few
years before judging trades.

 
I recall people being intrigued by his impressive minor league OBP. 

 

[Valek123]

 
This is a young John Lackey correct?

 

[Al Zarilla]

MLB.com is getting all SOSH-like: 

 

Holt's legend grows with Superman-like grab
 
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/brock-holts-legend-grows-with-superman-like-grab-in-center-field-for-red-sox?ymd=20140617&content_id=80250382&vkey=news_mlb

 

[CoRP]

I was working on that one first but it looked really creepy so I abandoned it.

Damn. Too bad. Thanks for trying. If you can't do it, no one can.

 

[Reverend]

Damn. Too bad. Thanks for trying. If you can't do it, no one can.

I will never believe in anything ever again.

 

[The Napkin]

I will never believe in anything ever again.

I don't believe you

 

[TheYaz67]

I keep scanning the game schedule to see when Brock's first MLB start is scheduled - that and he needs a turn at catcher in the near future also - only two positions he has yet to master this season.

 

[FelixMantilla]

Brock has certainly fallen back down to earth:
 
.219/.278/.271 in the second half of the season.
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=holtbr01&year=&t=b

 

[InsideTheParker]

I am quite concerned about this concussion that wasn't seen as a concussion for quite a while, and that he played through. Does anyone know how he is doing?

 

[threecy]

Brock has certainly fallen back down to earth:
 
.219/.278/.271 in the second half of the season.
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=holtbr01&year=&t=b

That would include .200/.217/.289 for a .506 OPS in 47 PA since being concussed.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

I am quite concerned about this concussion that wasn't seen as a concussion for quite a while, and that he played through. Does anyone know how he is doing?

 
Discussed at length on the Sox recent telecasts.
 
He's continuing to see doctors

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

That would include .200/.217/.289 for a .506 OPS in 47 PA since being concussed.

 
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Is this an argument that his second half slide is primarily because of the concussion? If we look at his game logs for July 18th through August 24th (the day after the all star break up until the day before the concussion was likely suffered) his slash line is 224/291/266 in 161 plate appearances. Am I reading you wrong? Because if I'm not, I'm not seeing any real evidence that his second half slide was driven by the concussion.

 

[jscola85]

I'm sure the concussion didn't help, but the regression in production certainly started before that.  The reality is that Holt should be seen going into 2015 as the 25th man or riding the Youk/Merloni shuttle.  There's nothing wrong with that role whatsoever, especially given how many question marks the 2015 team has already, be it injury-related (Victorino) production-related (WMB, JBJ, Craig, etc.) or position-related (Bogaerts, Craig, etc.).  Having a super-sub you can call up or send down based on need is a great asset that we haven't really had since Youk's early days.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Don't discount the fact that he's left-handed, a trait that only 1/9 of the projected lineup shares.