Cam Newton, Ed Hochuli, and the Integrity of the Game

[tims4wins]

So I think it has been brought up in a few places but thought it was topic worthy. As I'm sure everyone has seen, Cam Newton accused ref Ed Hochuli of telling him that he was "too young" to deserve a roughing the passer penalty. The NFL has stated that Hochulia adamantly denied this, and further, that the play was called correctly because you can't rough the passer when he is out of the pocket (which is weaselly and a technicality, since they obviously could have thrown a flag for a late hit).
 
For all of their bluster about the Integrity of the Game, seems like the NFL might have an issue here if Hochuli indeed said what Cam accused him of saying.
 
Edit
 

Referee Ed Hochuli could be subject to discipline if it is proved that he told Carolina Panthers quarterback Cam Newton he "wasn't old enough" to get a call in Sunday's 27-22 victory over the New Orleans Saints.
"We would do an investigation, see if anybody was miked in the area, and we've had situations in the past where an official said something inappropriate to a player and we've disciplined them," NFL vice president of officiating Dean Blandino told the NFL Network on Monday. "So there is a process in place, and we would have to go through that process to see if we could pick up what was actually said."

 
Better hire Ted Wells!

 

[pappymojo]

Is there a video of the play? 

 

[ifmanis5]

"Not old enough to get the call" is a pretty common attitude among all refs in all sports. In their eyes, you have to earn it. And by 'it' I mean respect.
Not saying it's right or wrong just saying this is not an NFL thing, it's a sports thing.

 

[Corsi]

Is there a video of the play? 

 
https://twitter.com/CharlesRobinson/status/648502817171357696
 
https://twitter.com/jjones9/status/648583232053755905

 

[kenneycb]

And Brady has benefited more from this than pretty much anyone else.  I think the bigger issue is the different set of rules mobile QBs get as opposed to pocket passers, especially out of the pocket and on the run.

 

[Average Reds]

 
https://twitter.com/CharlesRobinson/status/648502817171357696
 
https://twitter.com/jjones9/status/648583232053755905

 
Maybe Newton misunderstood what Hochuli said, but I have a hard time believing that one of the more respected NFL officials is going to light his career on fire by telling a five year veteran that he's not "old enough" to get a call.
 
By rule, it wasn't roughing the passer.  The case for unsportsmanlike conduct is borderline.  It's not like the defender was targeting the knees.  It's basically a weak arm shove at the end of the play.

 

[Tony C]

If Hochuli said that, it's indefensible. As for a late hit call, that'd be incredibly ticky-tack -- maybe not the greatest view on that Vine, but looks like the defender has his hands on him before the ball is released. Sure he gives him a slight shove after that, but to no particular effect. Can't say that'd never be called, but have certainly seen worse (on Brady, even) without a call. 

 

[pappymojo]

The hit didn't seem that bad. To me, it looked like the defender grabbed him while he had the ball. He threw the ball and then they both fell.

 

[DJnVa]

The hit didn't seem that bad. To me, it looked like the defender grabbed him while he had the ball. He threw the ball and then they both fell.

 
The hit is immaterial to what Newton is talking about.

 

[C4CRVT]

That shouldn't be a flag. He pump faked and the guy had no choice but to go after him then was falling down.
 
Cam has a reputation for having a tough personality. If Hochuli was busting his stones a little, there's a chance he had no idea how to take it and is making a huge deal out of nothing or is intentionally altering the gist of it to suit his own hurt feelings.

 

[amarshal2]

I scanned this thread twice and nobody has mentioned that Ed told Blandino that he said, "the difference is you were running."
 
I'm a terrible lip reader, but I have an easier time matching Ed's lips to "the difference is you were running" than "you're not old enough to get that call".  
 
I think Cam just misheard.  
 
Edit: For those who like links/don't want to google:
 

"Ed was adamant that he did not say that," Blandino said. "He said [to Newton] that the difference is you were running. I think if you look at the tape it looks like Ed does say that at one point — you can’t see everything that Ed says. But he’s adamant he didn’t say it, and I think that’s where we are right now and we’re just going to kind of move on from there."
 

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-cam-newton-ed-hochuli-20150928-story.html
 
If there were mic'ed up players in the area, they should check.  If there weren't this should be a non-story and we should move on. 

 

[luckiestman]

It's just a misheard song lyric
 
The difference is you were running
 
The difference is you're a young'in

 

[Average Reds]

 
The hit is immaterial to what Newton is talking about.

 
This simply could not be more wrong.  The hit is the catalyst for everything. 
 
As to what was actually said in response to Newton complaining about the lack of a call, I have no problem taking Hochuli at his word. Unless Newton has more, there's nothing to see here.

 

[Ed Hillel]

He called him boy.

 

[glennhoffmania]

 
This simply could not be more wrong.  The hit is the catalyst for everything. 
 
As to what was actually said in response to Newton complaining about the lack of a call, I have no problem taking Hochuli at his word. Unless Newton has more, there's nothing to see here.

 
I respectfully disagree.  Whether it was a clean hit or not, or a penalty was called or not, the issue is whether Hochuli said that only older QBs would get a call in that situation.  What was actually called, or not called, is irrelevant. 

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Is it news that older veterans/stars get calls that rookies or younger guys don't? Watch an NBA game sometime. I'm sure refs have said much worse things to players. 
 
Edit to add: assuming he said it, which I don't think he did judging by the video, I don't see the big deal. It was a good noncall to begin with and even if he did say it, get over it. 

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Stephen A. write a "if this was a white QB they would have believed him and suspended Hoch immediately" column yet?

 

[ilol@u]

Cam Newton calling out the refs in the media to have them conduct an "investigation" will not sit well with the other refs/officials. I don't see Newton getting any favorable calls in the future.

 

[ifmanis5]

Cam Newton calling out the refs in the media to have them conduct an "investigation" will not sit well with the other refs/officials. I don't see Newton getting any favorable calls in the future.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Cam Newton calling out the refs in the media to have them conduct an "investigation" will not sit well with the other refs/officials. I don't see Newton getting any favorable calls in the future.

Same guy also has a record 2 games above .500 and 3 of 4 seasons with a losing record and still pretends he's superman. What'd you expect?

 

[Montana Fan]

In today's NFL, a flag should have been thrown there.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

In today's NFL, a flag should have been thrown there.

He was out of the pocket, not slammed to the ground and it was not really violent that doesn't get called 80% of the time and never should.

 

[H78]

Absolutely not a flag and if Hoch did say that shame on Newton for crying about it publicly rather than filing a complaint with the league first. At that point, if the league doesn't do anything, THEN complain publicly about it. It makes him look like a giant crybaby, particularly when you consider how he was barely touched in the first place.

 

[In Vino Vinatieri]

 
https://twitter.com/CharlesRobinson/status/648502817171357696
 

If that's supposed to be evidence of anything then I've seen referees tell players they were too young to get the call thousands of times across many different sports

 

[H78]

And I literally, at no point, can make out Ed saying the words "old enough" there.

Newton probably either misheard him or is exaggerating.

 

[Average Reds]

 
I respectfully disagree.  Whether it was a clean hit or not, or a penalty was called or not, the issue is whether Hochuli said that only older QBs would get a call in that situation.  What was actually called, or not called, is irrelevant. 

 
I think the disagreement between us is that I think Newton's story doesn't pass the smell test, so I'm looking at the incident in total, not just the allegation of what Hochuli said.
 
But regardless, we are in absolute agreement on the fact that if Hochuli said this, he's in deep trouble.  (I think I mentioned that it would be akin to him lighting his career on fire.)  Part of the reason I have such trouble with Newton's story is that it goes against everything I've ever read/heard about Hochuli.  And while I'm no lip reader, the video of the interaction between them doesn't support what Newton claims.
 
It does support the notion that Newton thought he heard something like that, because he is clearly startled.  But given the seriousness of the accusation, Newton really has to come with something other than "that's what I heard" if he wants the public to believe him.
 
 

He called him boy.

 
I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but you never know these days ...

 

[mauidano]

Cam Newton is not the most credible guy in the world either.  This is the same guy who in college cheated academically, stole a laptop and pretty much got away from that.
 
Consider the source.
 
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5783051
 
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3718266

 

[RG33]

You can pretty clearly see Hochuli say "running" in that clip.  Much like he said he said.  
 
This is dumb.  It was dumb for Cam to even bring it up in the press conference to begin with.  He seems like a whiner and now has a target on his back from other officials.  

 

[Montana Fan]

Goodell announced that he's assigning Belichick's lip reader to review the video.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

In today's NFL, a flag should have been thrown there.

No

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

I was off on my Stephen A. prediction but what he actually said is just as asinine. The video is "proof" of Newton's side of the story.

 

[DJnVa]

 
This simply could not be more wrong.  The hit is the catalyst for everything .

Oh I could always be more wrong.

My point was that Hochuli didn't say, if you believe Cam, it wasn't a foul he said you don't deserve the call. That seems to mean that if he was older he would have called it.

That said I'm not sure I buy that Hochuli said that.

EDIT: Or what GHoff said.

 

[glennhoffmania]

 
I think the disagreement between us is that I think Newton's story doesn't pass the smell test, so I'm looking at the incident in total, not just the allegation of what Hochuli said.
 
But regardless, we are in absolute agreement on the fact that if Hochuli said this, he's in deep trouble.  (I think I mentioned that it would be akin to him lighting his career on fire.)  Part of the reason I have such trouble with Newton's story is that it goes against everything I've ever read/heard about Hochuli.  And while I'm no lip reader, the video of the interaction between them doesn't support what Newton claims.
 
It does support the notion that Newton thought he heard something like that, because he is clearly startled.  But given the seriousness of the accusation, Newton really has to come with something other than "that's what I heard" if he wants the public to believe him.
 
 
 
I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but you never know these days ...

Ok I agree with all of this. And I'd be very surprised if Hochuli said anything close to what Newton claims given his reputation. Anecdotal and all but I knew a girl who worked for Ed and she said he was the most stand up guy you could ever come across. So my initial reaction was that this was bullshit. My only point was that, hypothetically, IF he said that then he was totally wrong.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Even if he did say it, which I don't think he did, wouldn't sarcasm cover it? It's such a Ticky take foul I could easily see it as sarcastic

Refs are human too. Look at the refs reaction to Edelman asking about the legal formations in the Balt game.

 

[dcmissle]

Yes, it would. This is ridiculous. And if you are going to run, you're getting hit. And if you don't want to get hit, play like Brady or Manning -- or play 3rd string for Washington.

 

[Dogman]

It's very clear to me Ed said "the difference is you were running".
 
Newton misheard. 

 

[Bellhorn]

Off topic, but this story reminds me of the incident from a couple of years ago where an official was suspended for a calling a player a "garbage-ass" during a game.  That was funny.

 

[Sox and Rocks]

I think superman needs better hearing. Either that or he's just being an ass, which seems entirely possible.

The most surprising part is that Newton went public with this stupid accusation, though he's never been mistaken for a Rhodes scholar.

 

[JohnnyK]

And Brady has benefited more from this than pretty much anyone else. 

 
From what?
 
From reddit:

 
Ok, lets see if they do.

• 
  In 2011 there were 9 roughing the passer penalties called for the Panthers, 1 for the Patriots, and 1 for the Saints (I left out the Colts because Manning didn't play that year).
  
• 
  In 2012 there were 6 roughing the passer penalties called for the Panthers, 2 for the Patriots, 1 for the Broncos, and 1 for the Saints.
  
• 
  In 2013 there were 2 roughing the passer penalties called for the Panthers, 2 for the Patriots, 0 for the Broncos, and 3 for the Saints.
  
• 
  In 2014 there were 6 roughing the passer penalties called for the Panthers, 2 for the Patriots, 1 for the Broncos, and 1 for the Saints.
  

 
Brady definitely doesn't get more roughing calls. Now, on a rate-basis, aparently Cam got hit more than twice as often over that period than the next QB (531 TO 272, unsourced and no mention who #2 is), so there might be a point there, but then you'd need to eliminate all his running plays too.

 

[crystalline]

 
From what?
 
From reddit:
 
Brady definitely doesn't get more roughing calls. Now, on a rate-basis, aparently Cam got hit more than twice as often over that period than the next QB (531 TO 272, unsourced and no mention who #2 is), so there might be a point there, but then you'd need to eliminate all his running plays too.

While we're on the topic of Brady getting calls or not, I watched Stafford throw the ball out of the end zone Sun night with no call. That intentional grounding call still chaps my arse.

 

[tims4wins]

While we're on the topic of Brady getting calls or not, I watched Stafford throw the ball out of the end zone Sun night with no call. That intentional grounding call still chaps my arse.

 
Brady has been called for 2 of the weirdest intentional grounding penalties I have ever seen - that one in Seattle, and the one in the second Giants Super Bowl. Never seen either called before, or after.

 

[joe dokes]

It's just a misheard song lyric
 
The difference is you were running
 
The difference is you're a young'in

http://kissthisguy.com/
 

 

[troparra]

Cam Newton calling out the refs in the media to have them conduct an "investigation" will not sit well with the other refs/officials. I don't see Newton getting any favorable calls in the future.

 
If this is true, then the NFL needs a whistleblower rule (no pun intended).  

 

[Leather]

I thought there already was a rule that no personnel of teams can publicly air grievances like that.

 

[Stevie1der]

So from lip reading that video, it seems like the most probable explanation for this (assuming Hochuli didn't say anything off-camera) is that Newton misheard Hochuli as saying, "The difference is you're young," and Newton later paraphrased this mishearing to the press.
 
edit: Looks like others have already figured that out.

 

[lexrageorge]

 
Brady has been called for 2 of the weirdest intentional grounding penalties I have ever seen - that one in Seattle, and the one in the second Giants Super Bowl. Never seen either called before, or after.

The Super Bowl call was especially egregious, as I recall that Welker was not all that far from where the ball was thrown.  99% of the time that call is not made. 

 

[Harry Hooper]

The Super Bowl call was especially egregious, as I recall that Welker was not all that far from where the ball was thrown.  99% of the time that call is not made. 

 
 
Yep, you can throw the ball 25 feet over a guy's head into the 8th row of the stands, but somehow doing the same when the guy is closer to the middle of the field than the sideline generates a flag.