Celtics Playoffs Discussion & News

JakeRae

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This has nothing to do with Boston, but...

Simmons just did a podcast with Haralobob, the highlight of which was Bob just teeing off on OKC. Bad coaching (Donovan is the new Scotty Brooks), bad talent (cupboard is bare after the 2 stars and a couple of decent guys), bad player usage decisions have (Waiters and Foye as backup PGs, while Cameron Payne doesn't get much of a look), on and on. If nothing else, it was an epic rant, which he ended with "I hope they both leave, it would serve OKC right if they did."

3% might be optimistic on Durant signing here, but he probably would have a better shot at a title if he did.
I think this is a bit extreme on the pessimism front. It's really hard to see a lot of superior potential free agent destinations that have space available. Sure, the Warriors could sell of their bench and free up space for Durant, and if they want to go that route, all bets are off, but outside of them, and the possibility he stays in OKC, where are these superior destinations?

The Heat, maybe, but they'd have to walk away from a lot of their current talent, including Wade and Whiteside, to make it work.
The Lakers have space, tons of space, but no talent, ditto the Sixers (but maybe a little more talent).
The Mavs either have an aging core and could maybe squeeze out the space or no core and lots of cap space. They do have a great coach.
The Wizards can keep Beal and sign a max player. But, they aren't as good as the Celtics and have less money to spend, a lesser front office, a lesser coach, and aren't that much warmer or fun.
The Rockets have space, but are a complete mess.
Portland has space and is another potentially attractive destination. I've got nothing bad to say here.
Charlotte is another interesting young team with space, although they'd have to renounce Al and Batum to do it.
Detroit could free up space, is an interesting young team, but it's Detroit.
Brooklyn has money but no talent.
Memphis has money but is old and declining.
The Hawks can spend if they don't keep Horford, but their upside is obviously capped because any gain is over-Horford.
The Jazz, Pacers, and Knicks, Nuggets, Magic, T-Wolves, Suns, and Bucks can all squeeze out enough space, mostly without overly damaging their current rosters, but it's hard to see any of them being one player away. The Jazz and Bucks probably have the best pitch at that. The Suns could've been interesting, but you'd have to take a lot on faith after how they collapsed because of injuries this year.
The few remaining teams don't have sufficient cap space, although they might be able to manufacture it or construct a sign and trade.

This brings us back to the Celtics. The Celtics have tons of space, almost as much as anyone. They can create more without doing too much damage to their long term core. They were quite good this year. They have a great young coach, the players seem happy, they have a GM who has shown he knows how to build and maintain a contender, great fans, and ownership that will spend. They are relatively young. They have tons of trade assets to acquire a second star player, if any are available, and can afford to overpay out of those assets without mortgaging the future if it helps attract a above-max talent like Durant. They are an historic franchise (won't matter to many, but might to someone).

Earlier in this thread, someone asked those of us talking about being a great free agent destination to name specific players. It's a bit hard to do that, since it's not clear who will stay with their current teams. That said, I can see Boston being attractive for tier-A guys like Durant and Horford. I can see it being attractive for tier-B guys like DeRozan, Whiteside, and Batum. Basically, I think Boston is an ideal place for any free agent that isn't getting paid more to stay put, and is probably the best possible option for most of these guys. So, I want to turn that question around. Who are these other teams that are vastly more desirable than Boston.

I understand that ordinarily a smattering of Texas, Florida, and LA-based teams would easily fit that bill. But, this year, right now, I just don't see it. We may never fully know, and we won't even be able to pretend we know anything for a few more months at least, but I think that people are overly concerned about how Boston was perceived and not paying enough attention to how it currently is both positioned and perceived. Ainge has done a masterful job of making Boston as desirable a FA destination as might be possible. Whether that pans out is a shot in the dark at this point.
 

BigSoxFan

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The lottery will go a long way to determining the Celtics' attractiveness. If the balls bounce our way, there will be a ton of attention on the Celtics and the team will be able to land, at a minimum, Simmons or Ingram. Both players look ready to step onto an NBA court and contribute from day 1 or could be the centerpiece of a deal for a guy like Boogie. There will be other moves but if you add Durant/Simmons or Durant/Ingram, this team becomes the 2nd best team in the EC with a chance to overtake Cleveland as #1. Additionally, there would still be a ton assets left to improve the team, notably the Nets and Grizzlies picks. Finally, the Western Conference has the Warriors and Spurs to contend with and both teams will be elite for the foreseeable future. The Spurs' likely elimination of OKC will only reinforce this. Meanwhile, the Eastern Conference has a Cavs team that hasn't even looked that dominant. Clearly, the path to the Finals is easier with the Celtics than with a team like the Rockets, Lakers, etc. We have no idea what motivates Durant but I think the Celtics are a possible option if everything breaks right. They key is landing Simmons or Ingram and not a guy like Bender who will likely mean nothing to a guy like Durant.
 

DJnVa

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I believe Boston has a less than 3% chance at landing Durant. Having said that, and using him as an example: he is loved where he is. Assuming most of the free agent landing spots could offer him the same money - he would have to be an idiot to leave a place that loves him unless he believed he could move up a rung or two on the 'chances of winning it all" ladder. I'd say the same for any high profile free agent. Horford is in the same place in my opinion. Why would either of them move laterally?.
My point was more that Durant seems like a smart enough guy to realize that the potential future of a team like the Celtics hinges a lot less on the outcome of a first round series with Atlanta after Avery Bradley gets hurt than on the coach, GM, upcoming draft pick haul, and FA signings.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I can't imagine Durant or any veteran FA being influenced by a 19-year old kid who wouldn't go Top-3 in many other drafts. The last thing an established veteran wants to do is play with a 19-year old kid.
 

DJnVa

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I can't imagine Durant or any veteran FA being influenced by a 19-year old kid who wouldn't go Top-3 in many other drafts. The last thing an established veteran wants to do is play with a 19-year old kid.
Granted. I also can't imagine him being influenced by a first round matchup with the Hawks either.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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The whole "Boston isn't a free agent destination" thing is dated and I'm excited for it to finally die this summer. We've seen a bunch of reports by how enamored the league is by Stevens, and know that the league's much different today than it was even 4 years ago. The quality of an organization and their front office means a lot to players. They understand how difficult it is to win, and I think we've seen plenty of evidence that organizational success has as much influence in where a player might sign than warm weather or taxes or market size.

Last year a max free agent choose Milwaukee over equal money from the Knicks. Milwaukee. And why? Because they've assembled a good group of young talent, a young, popular coach and are an organization on the rise. Meanwhile, the top free agent in the same class went to a small market team in a boring city because that team's been the most successful franchise in the sport over the last 20 years. He could have gone to the Lakers, Knicks or anywhere else. Instead Aldridge went to San Antonio. And left a very good organization to go there.

The Celtics have a ton of cap space. They have a young, talented roster. They have an excellent young coach. They have a stable front office, a ton of assets moving forward and flexibility to surround a star player with other star players without reducing their ability to add cost controlled role players. It's a very attractive situation, and the tendency of many Celtics fans to write off Boston's attractiveness to free agents because they weren't attractive back when they had none of the things mentioned above seems crazy to me.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The whole "Boston isn't a free agent destination" thing is dated and I'm excited for it to finally die this summer. We've seen a bunch of reports by how enamored the league is by Stevens, and know that the league's much different today than it was even 4 years ago. The quality of an organization and their front office means a lot to players. They understand how difficult it is to win, and I think we've seen plenty of evidence that organizational success has as much influence in where a player might sign than warm weather or taxes or market size.

Last year a max free agent choose Milwaukee over equal money from the Knicks. Milwaukee. And why? Because they've assembled a good group of young talent, a young, popular coach and are an organization on the rise. Meanwhile, the top free agent in the same class went to a small market team in a boring city because that team's been the most successful franchise in the sport over the last 20 years. He could have gone to the Lakers, Knicks or anywhere else. Instead Aldridge went to San Antonio. And left a very good organization to go there.

The Celtics have a ton of cap space. They have a young, talented roster. They have an excellent young coach. They have a stable front office, a ton of assets moving forward and flexibility to surround a star player with other star players without reducing their ability to add cost controlled role players. It's a very attractive situation, and the tendency of many Celtics fans to write off Boston's attractiveness to free agents because they weren't attractive back when they had none of the things mentioned above seems crazy to me.
Was this post prior to last years Amir Johnson signing or the year prior when Evan Turner was the offseason prize? I've been reading this same stuff for over a decade back from when Ainge recognized that paying guys like Raef and Theo to utilize their expiring contracts was the way to attract a star player rather than fight the fight he knows he cannot win.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Was this post prior to last years Amir Johnson signing or the year prior when Evan Turner was the offseason prize? I've been reading this same stuff for over a decade back from when Ainge recognized that paying guys like Raef and Theo to utilize their expiring contracts was the way to attract a star player rather than fight the fight he knows he cannot win.
Check the time stamp. I posted that a couple of minutes ago. Amir Johnson was signed last summer. So it was after the Amir Johnson signing.

The point I was making, and continue to make, is that the LaFrentz/Ratliff era Celtics have nothing in common with the current iteration of the Celtics. They didn't have a strong foundation of success in place, the roster was full of garbage like Ricky Davis and Mark Blount, and they'd only just drafted Perkins and Jefferson, both of whom were a ways away from demonstrating the value they ultimately offered the Celtics. Saying "Ainge knew he couldn't sign somebody in '05" as if it's an apples-to-apples comparison with the current iteration of the Celtics is idiotic for all of the reasons I've already cited.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Check the time stamp. I posted that a couple of minutes ago. Amir Johnson was signed last summer. So it was after the Amir Johnson signing.

The point I was making, and continue to make, is that the LaFrentz/Ratliff era Celtics have nothing in common with the current iteration of the Celtics. They didn't have a strong foundation of success in place, the roster was full of garbage like Ricky Davis and Mark Blount, and they'd only just drafted Perkins and Jefferson, both of whom were a ways away from demonstrating the value they ultimately offered the Celtics. Saying "Ainge knew he couldn't sign somebody in '05" as if it's an apples-to-apples comparison with the current iteration of the Celtics is idiotic for all of the reasons I've already cited.
They also had a lot less competition for the top FA unlike this summer which you omit as it didn't support your premise which is kinda important. As I mentioned here or the other thread the possibility does exist for a massive overpay on Horford on the wrong side of 30 (which still may be the right move for us if a big trade doesn't occur). The top tier though......cmon you really feel we are a better destination than great weather, less taxes, and/or a larger contract for a player remaining with their current team?

Sure some dynamics have changed.....one thing that hasn't is the optimism though so I guess that's good.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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They also had a lot less competition for the top FA unlike this summer which you omit as it didn't support your premise which is kinda important. As I mentioned here or the other thread the possibility does exist for a massive overpay on Horford on the wrong side of 30 (which still may be the right move for us if a big trade doesn't occur). The top tier though......cmon you really feel we are a better destination than great weather, less taxes, and/or a larger contract for a player remaining with their current team?

Sure some dynamics have changed.....one thing that hasn't is the optimism though so I guess that's good.
I think the Celtics -- a team I don't root for, just to go ahead and head off the accusation that I'm a homer (which I'm accused of every time I debate this topic) -- are a very, very strong free agent destination this summer. I laid out all of the reasons why. I dont think taxes and weather play as large a role as you think, and that you're discounting the impact a strong organization with good assets to move forward with plays. Don't know how to be any more clear on this than I have been already.
 

Eddie Jurak

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They also had a lot less competition for the top FA unlike this summer which you omit as it didn't support your premise which is kinda important. As I mentioned here or the other thread the possibility does exist for a massive overpay on Horford on the wrong side of 30 (which still may be the right move for us if a big trade doesn't occur). The top tier though......cmon you really feel we are a better destination than great weather, less taxes, and/or a larger contract for a player remaining with their current team?

Sure some dynamics have changed.....one thing that hasn't is the optimism though so I guess that's good.
If Durant moves, is he likely to do the LeBron 1+1 a couple of times, so as to cash in on the rising max deal? This doesn't give the Celtics any advantage, obviously, but might limit OKCs financial advantage in trying to keep him.
 

BigSoxFan

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I can't imagine Durant or any veteran FA being influenced by a 19-year old kid who wouldn't go Top-3 in many other drafts. The last thing an established veteran wants to do is play with a 19-year old kid.
Simmons or Ingram makes the Celtics more viable trade partners. If Durant ever came, which we all agree isn't likely, it'd be because Ainge was able to turn the 2016 Nets pick into an established player like Cousins or Butler. Definite long shot but not out of the realm of possibility.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think the Celtics -- a team I don't root for, just to go ahead and head off the accusation that I'm a homer (which I'm accused of every time I debate this topic) -- are a very, very strong free agent destination this summer. I laid out all of the reasons why. I dont think taxes and weather play as large a role as you think, and that you're discounting the impact a strong organization with good assets to move forward with plays. Don't know how to be any more clear on this than I have been already.
Yeah we agree to disagree. Let's revisit later in the summer. No sense beating each of our dead horses into further submission.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If Durant moves, is he likely to do the LeBron 1+1 a couple of times, so as to cash in on the rising max deal? This doesn't give the Celtics any advantage, obviously, but might limit OKCs financial advantage in trying to keep him.
Why would he choose Boston, where he has no connection to, over.......

Washington - Where he grew up who has a core of Wall and presumably Beal (should Durant come).

Houston - Would reunite with one of his best friends in Michael Beasley (assuming he remains), possibly Harden, and won't have to ever shovel at 8am to get to practice on time.

Lakers - It's LA baby!

Even Toronto which was at least his favorite team growing up a huge Vince Carter fan. Not to mention returning to OKC and any other destinations with better weather and no state tax on home games not mentioned.
 

Cellar-Door

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Why would he choose Boston, where he has no connection to, over.......

Washington - Where he grew up who has a core of Wall and presumably Beal (should Durant come).

Houston - Would reunite with one of his best friends in Michael Beasley (assuming he remains), possibly Harden, and won't have to ever shovel at 8am to get to practice on time.

Even Toronto which was at least his favorite team growing up a huge Vince Carter fan. Not to mention returning to OKC and any other destinations not mentioned.
Washington is a disaster with no coach a GM on the hot seat and if they keep Beal (have to max him likely) a not great supporting cast and few assets (also a lot of NBA players have said playing for the hometown team sucks).

Rockets can only afford him without Dwight and that roster would be just him and Harden. Probably worse than what he has in OKC.

Toronto doesn't have the cap space and their roster going forward is shaky.

OKC has to be the huge favorite on a 1+1.

Dark horses are LAL who suck but it's LA for branding.

GS though bad for his brand, Nike would hate it.

The argument for BOS is that it's a good roster with the cap and assets to get at least 1 maybe 2 more stars. Good stable coach and GM situation, and Brand-wise it's much stronger than DC.

Boston is a very long shot but one of the better ones of the non-OKC crowd. A lot of national people seem to agree, Nate Jones had some interesting takes on the brand/marketing stuff a while back.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Why would he choose Boston, where he has no connection to, over.......

Washington - Where he grew up who has a core of Wall and presumably Beal (should Durant come). WAS who has no front court, no 1st round pick this year, and an injury plagued SG.

Houston - Would reunite with one of his best friends in Michael Beasley (assuming he remains), possibly Harden, and won't have to ever shovel at 8am to get to practice on time. Of all the possible ways to attract KD to Houston, you think Michael Beasley is the key? That's the first thing to mention? Great sales pitch.

Lakers - It's LA baby! What a great team! KD and................

Even Toronto which was at least his favorite team growing up a huge Vince Carter fan. Not to mention returning to OKC and any other destinations with better weather and no state tax on home games not mentioned. Why don't we add Memphis to the list. He could go play with Vince! And Orlando doesn't have taxes, so he should love the Magic, right?
Come on HRB, you know exactly why he'd choose Boston and it has nothing to do with anything you mentioned. The C's have a strong young core, a plethora of draft picks, cap space and a strong organization with a great GM and head coach.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Washington is a disaster with no coach a GM on the hot seat and if they keep Beal (have to max him likely) a not great supporting cast and few assets (also a lot of NBA players have said playing for the hometown team sucks).

Rockets can only afford him without Dwight and that roster would be just him and Harden. Probably worse than what he has in OKC.

Toronto doesn't have the cap space and their roster going forward is shaky.

OKC has to be the huge favorite on a 1+1.

Dark horses are LAL who suck but it's LA for branding.

GS though bad for his brand, Nike would hate it.

The argument for BOS is that it's a good roster with the cap and assets to get at least 1 maybe 2 more stars. Good stable coach and GM situation, and Brand-wise it's much stronger than DC.

Boston is a very long shot but one of the better ones of the non-OKC crowd. A lot of national people seem to agree, Nate Jones had some interesting takes on the brand/marketing stuff a while back.
Actually the fact that the Wizards don't have a coach plays to their advantage as Durant can pretty much name his coach if they want him to return to DC.

As far as others cap space, Houston will have it after Dwight leaves and Toronto will as well by simply choosing Durant over DeRozan. Cap space is easily manipulated anyway but this summer even more so.
 

Sprowl

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OKC has to be the huge favorite on a 1+1.
Durant has had foot injuries of the kind that have ended some other players' careers. He might want to lock in 5 years.

I agree that the Celtics don't have any particular advantage in the Durant sweepstakes, other than that Durant's game would fit Stevens' offensive scheme beautifully.
 

bowiac

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Durant has had foot injuries of the kind that have ended some other players' careers. He might want to lock in 5 years.
Durant will have something like $165-170M in career earnings locked up if he takes a 1+1 deal. He also has a shoe deal worth ~$300M.

I don't know for sure obviously, but I suspect he may be more interested in winning than just protecting himself against injury at that point. It's not even giving up salary - it's just giving up the certainty of the paydays to take him to $250M in career earnings. I'd be surprised if he locked himself into OKC at this point.
 

Strike4

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So the Celtics have lost the first two games at Atlanta - not a particularly surprising result, but I think the way they got there doesn't bode well. A combination of injuries keeping players out (Bradley, Olynyk in game 2) and lingering injuries (Crowder, Olynyk in game 1) have left the team struggling, but I am not sure health would matter. The Celtics simply don't have enough talent to compete with a team like Atlanta in the playoffs. The upcoming home games might be more competitive, and I can see the Celtics winning at least one of the two games, but the team is clearly at the floor of being an NBA playoff team right now. I can see Stevens coming up with a game plan that allows for the Celtics offense better scoring opportunities, but they are limited in their ability to execute - by injuries, by nerves, by not being the kinds of players who can routinely hit jump shots or score around the rim. You would think falling behind by 21 points in the first quarter is not something that would happen to a Brad Stevens team two games in a row, but here we are. The silver lining, if any, is that the Hawks haven't looked all that great in beating the Celtics.

One of the things that was mentioned in the game 2 gamethread was the implications for next year. I think this puts a lot of pressure on Danny Ainge - there is the sense that the Celtics have been rising team making themselves attractive to free agents. But where does the team go now? Top-level free agents, the kind one would hope Danny Ainge would pursue, might think twice about signing in Boston now. He might be left with second or third tier to choose from - he could hold his nose and sign one or two, or pass. He could let a few players go and rely on the draft to replace talent, which could result in the team taking a step back, but could result in a more stable long-term vision. He could decided to sign players like Turner and Sullinger, in order to maintain the status quo and roll the dice again next year with the current players. Nearly all of these options result in a team that is treading water at best - another year of waiting for the fanbase, another year of a first round playoff exit, but probably without the upstart label and buzz around the over-achievement. What's everybody think?
 

Cellar-Door

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Fully healthy they had a chance though ATL is the second worst match-up in the East after Cleveland. They needed at least 2 of Bradley/Olynyk/Thomas to shoot well from 3 to stretch the floor. With 2 of those injured the offense goes from below average to abysmal.
 

ifmanis5

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Fully healthy they can beat any team in the conference other than the Cavs and the Hawks, which is a pretty good place to be, all things considered. They drew the short straw (perhaps deservedly so after losing a bunch of games in the regular season that they should have aced- NJ, LAL, etc.) and so here they are, about to be one and done again. It was a fun season and the team showed a lot of fight during most of it so it's disappointing to be right back at the same place one year later.

I don't think advancing past a first or second round would change anybody's thinking about the teams' long term outlook, though. That outlook is Brad is a great coach getting a lot out of a bunch of good-to-decent parts but with no blue chippers, which they sorely need to be a real contender going forward. I think the Celtics management would have made that assessment whether they beat the Hawks or not. Which they won't.
 
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jimv

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...I think this puts a lot of pressure on Danny Ainge...
Are you implying that Ainge's job is in jeopardy? I don't think that's the case. At all.

If you're implying that it's really hard to become a championship contender in the NBA, everyone already knows that. The team is in asset acquisition mode while waiting for an mvp level player who is ok with coming Boston to become available. Might be this summer, might be next summer, might be the trade deadline in 2018.....

In the meantime they'll roll out the best product they can while retaining as much flexibility as possible.
 

Strike4

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Are you implying that Ainge's job is in jeopardy? I don't think that's the case. At all.

If you're implying that it's really hard to become a championship contender in the NBA, everyone already knows that. The team is in asset acquisition mode while waiting for an mvp level player who is ok with coming Boston to become available. Might be this summer, might be next summer, might be the trade deadline in 2018.....

In the meantime they'll roll out the best product they can while retaining as much flexibility as possible.
No, I wasn't implying that Danny Ainge's job is in jeopardy - nothing written in my post came close to saying that. And I wasn't implying that it's hard to become a championship contender in the NBA because as you said, everyone already knows that. I was stating a fact: the Celtics not winning a first round playoff series makes Danny Ainge's job a little bit harder.
 

ishmael

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One of the things that was mentioned in the game 2 gamethread was the implications for next year. I think this puts a lot of pressure on Danny Ainge - there is the sense that the Celtics have been rising team making themselves attractive to free agents. But where does the team go now? Top-level free agents, the kind one would hope Danny Ainge would pursue, might think twice about signing in Boston now. He might be left with second or third tier to choose from - he could hold his nose and sign one or two, or pass. He could let a few players go and rely on the draft to replace talent, which could result in the team taking a step back, but could result in a more stable long-term vision. He could decided to sign players like Turner and Sullinger, in order to maintain the status quo and roll the dice again next year with the current players. Nearly all of these options result in a team that is treading water at best - another year of waiting for the fanbase, another year of a first round playoff exit, but probably without the upstart label and buzz around the over-achievement. What's everybody think?
Danny's goal this offseason will be to improve the team, without sacrificing too much in the long term. If that means signing Horford or Durant, great. But if we miss out on those guys, I have a ton of confidence in DA to continue building out the future core, while also giving Stevens the right short-term pieces to move from 48 to 50+ wins (and hopefully another round or two in the playoffs). Depending on where they end up in the lottery, that likely means packaging some combination of 16, 23, 31, 35 and our 3 later 2nd round picks to move up or acquire assets in future drafts.
 

Eddie Jurak

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In the best of times, the Celtics have just barely enough shooting to get by in this league. Take away their 2 best outside shooters and not so much. Don't know what they can do in game 3 besides have their subpar shooters take a page from Antoine's book, bomb away from outside, and hope for the best.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I wonder if they give Hunter an even bigger shot at early minutes in game 3, especially if Olynyk can't go. They just need the shooting that badly.
 

Cellar-Door

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I wonder if they give Hunter an even bigger shot at early minutes in game 3, especially if Olynyk can't go. They just need the shooting that badly.
Maybe, but Hunter was a major factor in ATL early scoring because he couldn't defend Korver's. Also he's not actually any good at shooting.
I think Jerebko and Rozier get more run.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Maybe, but Hunter was a major factor in ATL early scoring because he couldn't defend Korver's. Also he's not actually any good at shooting.
I think Jerebko and Rozier get more run.
He certainly didn't look ready for playoff basketball in game 2. I agree with you that Rozier gets additional minutes before he does. He can handle the ball and play tough D. If he's playing confidently on the offensive end and knocks down a few shots, he could make an impact.

The C's need to find a way to get IT going, and personally I'd have him running the point while he's on the floor vs being off the ball. Smart ruined too many possessions when he brought the ball up and couldn't get into the lane. The defense didn't respect his outside shot and we wasted a lot of time not really running anything. Get the ball in IT's hands early, get him in the pick and roll game and see if he can get to the hoop against their bigs. If Turner is in the game, IT can play off the ball to conserve some energy otherwise I want the ball in his hands.

If they don't get more out of IT and Crowder, they've got not shot at making this series interesting. They need to step it up and carry the offense.
 

oumbi

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Gosh what a mess for Stevens. Without Olynyk and Bradley, and with Crowder hurt, the Hawks are daring the Celtics to shoot from the outside, clogging up the lane, and pressuring IT. I give the Hawks credit on this strategy, it has worked so far.

Best bet? It may be to park Jerebko in a corner and let him shoot. He made 39.8% of his three pointers this season. After that, the cupboard looks to be bare.

Hunter is a rookie and it shows. And Hunter has yet to demonstrate that he can shoot effectively from the beyond the arc. Even in the Dleague he shot only 29.6%.

Stevens may be reduced to simply praying and have Young camp out in the corner and see what happens. He, at least, shot 35% in the Deleague.
 

Strike4

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If they don't get more out of IT and Crowder, they've got not shot at making this series interesting. They need to step it up and carry the offense.
This is it - and if they can get anything going, it will free up a bit of space for some good looks on jump shots...if anybody can hit any. They were 13 of 45 at halftime in Game 2. So even if Crowder and IT get it going (a huge if) they will need secondary players to contribute. Like oumbi says, maybe that even involves Jerebko from the corner, RJ bombing away, and Sullinger taking those long 2's. And maybe if any of that works, then there will be a bit more space in the lane for IT in the 4th quarter.

You have to think that a team that persevered as it did during the regular season would be able to take at least one game at home in this series.
 

Eddie Jurak

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He certainly didn't look ready for playoff basketball in game 2. I agree with you that Rozier gets additional minutes before he does. He can handle the ball and play tough D. If he's playing confidently on the offensive end and knocks down a few shots, he could make an impact.

The C's need to find a way to get IT going, and personally I'd have him running the point while he's on the floor vs being off the ball. Smart ruined too many possessions when he brought the ball up and couldn't get into the lane. The defense didn't respect his outside shot and we wasted a lot of time not really running anything. Get the ball in IT's hands early, get him in the pick and roll game and see if he can get to the hoop against their bigs. If Turner is in the game, IT can play off the ball to conserve some energy otherwise I want the ball in his hands.

If they don't get more out of IT and Crowder, they've got not shot at making this series interesting. They need to step it up and carry the offense.
The problem is that Atlanta's defensive strategy is "don't respect anyone but IT". When he has the ball, the lane is clogged and Atlanta's D plays off of the Celtics' so-called perimeter shooters, basically daring them to shoot.

Jae Crowder's injury is also huge because he's no longer a threat to drive so he has less room to get his shot off.

Stevens was trying to use IT off ball in hopes of getting him so looks, though it didn't work that well.

I hope Stevens has a good idea or two. At this point, all I can think to do is just put what 'shooters' (scare quotes) they have on the floor, bomb away from distance, and hope to get lucky and hit enough shots to open things up inside for IT, at least a little bit.
 

JakeRae

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The problem is that Atlanta's defensive strategy is "don't respect anyone but IT". When he has the ball, the lane is clogged and Atlanta's D plays off of the Celtics' so-called perimeter shooters, basically daring them to shoot.

Jae Crowder's injury is also huge because he's no longer a threat to drive so he has less room to get his shot off.

Stevens was trying to use IT off ball in hopes of getting him so looks, though it didn't work that well.

I hope Stevens has a good idea or two. At this point, all I can think to do is just put what 'shooters' (scare quotes) they have on the floor, bomb away from distance, and hope to get lucky and hit enough shots to open things up inside for IT, at least a little bit.
Atlanta's overall defensive scheme, as Zach Lowe's article on Bradley discusses, involves sacrificing some threes to focus on contesting the strong side and the lane.

As you correctly observe, IT struggles because they can key on him. But, the Celtics really only have two ways out. They can generate transition looks that get them to the rim or they can start making open threes. I think they need to go small, with Jerebko at the 4, and hope that that gives them enough shooting to soften up Atlanta's defense or take advantage of their aggressiveness.

We can't survive with only 2 shooters on the floor, which is how we started last game. Winning games will require one of Rozier or Smart to knock down open looks and Stevens to realize that he cannot play Sullinger and Amir at the same time. I remain optimistic that, with the right adjustments, we can recover and win these next 2 home games. I'm not saying it is likely, but I think it is possible.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yes, I get that Hunter wasn't good this year. But I think Stevens is going to be thinking about a different question than "who did what this year"

I think he's going to ask himself "who has the best chance of surprisingly hitting 4 of 6 threes early on and pressuring the defense" or something similar to that. I'm not sure whether Hunter is his answer to that, but he is a pure shooter---which isn't true of any other option.

Of course, all this does is point up how thin they are in terms of shooters especially with Bradley and Olynyk down
 

Cellar-Door

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Yes, I get that Hunter wasn't good this year. But I think Stevens is going to be thinking about a different question than "who did what this year"

I think he's going to ask himself "who has the best chance of surprisingly hitting 4 of 6 threes early on and pressuring the defense" or something similar to that. I'm not sure whether Hunter is his answer to that, but he is a pure shooter---which isn't true of any other option.

Of course, all this does is point up how thin they are in terms of shooters especially with Bradley and Olynyk down
I think it's probably Rozier, he wasn't as good as Hunter at shooting the 3 in college, but it was fairly close and he's shown himself to be the better defender so far. He also is an excellent rebounder which helps. I think Hunter will get some time, but you need to find a way to hide him on defense, he can't be covering Korver (or likely Bazemore) so you need to get him out there when Hardaway Jr or maybe Sefolosha are in.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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The problem is that Atlanta's defensive strategy is "don't respect anyone but IT". When he has the ball, the lane is clogged and Atlanta's D plays off of the Celtics' so-called perimeter shooters, basically daring them to shoot.

Jae Crowder's injury is also huge because he's no longer a threat to drive so he has less room to get his shot off.

Stevens was trying to use IT off ball in hopes of getting him so looks, though it didn't work that well.

I hope Stevens has a good idea or two. At this point, all I can think to do is just put what 'shooters' (scare quotes) they have on the floor, bomb away from distance, and hope to get lucky and hit enough shots to open things up inside for IT, at least a little bit.
That's fair enough. Another idea would be to play IT with Turner more. It puts your two best ball handlers together, but they could have Turner initiate the offense while IT works off of screens, similar to how they've used Avery in the past. IT draws so much attention from the Hawks that others will likely find themselves open (Sully down low, Crowder cutting to the hoop). And if he can't get open, Turner has shown the ability to get into the paint and create his own shot.

I'm not sure what that does with the second unit, but maybe something like Turner/IT/Crowder/Jerebko/Amir to start with Smart/Rozier/Sully/Zeller off the bench. Use Young/Hunter sparingly and when Korver isn't in the game. Might have to go with a really short bench, rotating Turner/IT/Smart/Rozier at the guard spots and Smart playing a few minutes at the 3 when Crowder is on the bench. Smart and Sully are your go-to guys on the 2nd unit.
 

CreightonGubanich

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That's fair enough. Another idea would be to play IT with Turner more. It puts your two best ball handlers together, but they could have Turner initiate the offense while IT works off of screens, similar to how they've used Avery in the past. IT draws so much attention from the Hawks that others will likely find themselves open (Sully down low, Crowder cutting to the hoop). And if he can't get open, Turner has shown the ability to get into the paint and create his own shot.

I'm not sure what that does with the second unit, but maybe something like Turner/IT/Crowder/Jerebko/Amir to start with Smart/Rozier/Sully/Zeller off the bench. Use Young/Hunter sparingly and when Korver isn't in the game. Might have to go with a really short bench, rotating Turner/IT/Smart/Rozier at the guard spots and Smart playing a few minutes at the 3 when Crowder is on the bench. Smart and Sully are your go-to guys on the 2nd unit.
This really highlights what a tough position Stevens is in: Your point about starting Turner and playing IT off the ball makes perfect sense on offense, but then you'd have to live with Thomas guarding Teague and Turner chasing Korver around screens. I'm not sure that's tenable.

The more I think about it, the more I think you have to start Jerebko to open up the floor, but you probably have to leave Smart in the starting lineup and just hope that he starts knocking down shots. Turner is a much better ball handler on the pick and roll if you want to play IT off the ball, but Turner can't shoot either, and it makes the defensive combinations awfully tough. While Stevens can't really start this lineup, I'd like to see him give some run to lineups with Jerebko at the 5: Jerebko/Crowder/Turner/Smart/IT, most likely. Make Atlanta start attacking mismatches in the post if they feel like that's a viable strategy.

Discussions like this really highlight the limitations of the Celtics' roster. The great thing about having star players is that those guys can do multiple things, like create their own shot AND defend, or handle the ball AND shoot. It's hard when pretty much every piece of the roster only has one or two things they do well.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Win in the friendly confines and play the best game of the season in Atlanta. Hopefully the rims there will look a little bigger by then.
 

Strike4

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Win in the friendly confines and play the best game of the season in Atlanta. Hopefully the rims there will look a little bigger by then.
Well said. It will be interesting to see if the offensive plan for Game 6 involves primarily finding a way to free up IT again, or if it involves focusing on somebody besides IT to handle the load on offense. Seems like the latter might be easier, but is more of a gamble and has the potential to blow up in Stevens' face.

The defense didn't seem to be a problem until they were totally flailing on offense.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Any word on ITs ankle?
Isaiah said after the game he'd be playing "no matter what" and Ainge later commented that it was "very likely" he'd play. That's probably all we'll hear since it didn't appear to be anything serious and if it was a tight game he probably returns.

He ran off the court with full weight on his ankle, slapping his teammates on the way out and it wasn't a complete turn like Batum's the other night and he's probably even playing for Charlotte tonight. I don't expect him to be any more banged up then Schroeder or any of the other number of players on both sides with injuries this time of the season.
 

BaseballJones

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Stars tend to play well on the road or at home, but role players tend to play better at home. I fully expect a big game from the Celtics, and then a huge challenge in game 7 in Atlanta.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Stars tend to play well on the road or at home, but role players tend to play better at home. I fully expect a big game from the Celtics, and then a huge challenge in game 7 in Atlanta.
Yes this is an excellent point on role players! These are often the difference makers in the biggest games as Smart and Bazemore have been in the last two games on each players respective home floor.