Celtics trade for Thornton, Zeller and a Pick

Cellar-Door

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Devizier said:
1) Beats the hell out of Lin and one of Houston's garbage picks.
 
2) What the hell happened to Thornton last year? He could never defend much but the dude could score in bunches.
His shots have been moving progressively farther from the basket.
Last year almost 50% of his shots were from 3. Also he didn't finish inside 3 ft like he used to.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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HomeRunBaker said:
How does it put us in a better position? We could have created Thornton's slot by paying Kardashian or Bogans $8m on a one-year deal. If someone wants a backup big the Kardashian signing accomplishes that too. The picks now are nearly a wash with a 2nd rounder going there.

The trade does virtually nothing we couldn't have done on our own unless you really like Zeller. Ainge got to fuck Riley and we got another big white backup 5 which Ainge appears committed to cornering the market on.....good for him.

I'm not unhappy it's just a big yawn that does little.
 
Without knowing where the pick falls, how can you call it a wash with a second rounder? Ainge just got a free 2016 first round pick from a team that isn't guaranteed to sign the free agent they're angling for. That alone makes this trade worth it.
 

Silent Chief

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Bill Belicheck-ian of Danny to get all of these picks.
 
BTW, I like Iverson.  I'd like to see him stick this year and I don't think Zeller precludes that.  
 

HomeRunBaker

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FelixMantilla said:
 
Yup, still miserable. ;)
I'll only get miserable if poster keep referencing Thornton's expiring deal as a super awesome acquisition when we could have created one without this trade.....it's not difficult to do.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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bowiac said:
 

@NBAcouchside

With this deal, you can sort of see why Kidd wanted Billy King fired.
 
 
Don't understand this.  BKN is capped out.  Assuming KG is coming back they have to try to upgrade; Jarrett Jack on 4/$25 is probably the best player they could have gotten to upgrade the team.  Granted that probably won't be enough to get them very far into the playoffs but it's better than standing pat.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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HomeRunBaker said:
I'll only get miserable if poster keep referencing Thornton's expiring deal as a super awesome acquisition when we could have created one without this trade.....it's not difficult to do.
 
What's your point, exactly? Yes, the Celtics could have replicated the Thornton expiring contract by signing Humphries or whoever to a similarly sized one year deal. Instead, they created the exact same sort of asset--but with a different name--and got a first round pick and Tyler Zeller in the process. What's the downside?
 

EL Jeffe

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I liked Zeller at UNC and he flashed some promise as a rookie when A.V. was out. He was pretty underwhelming last year though, which is obviously concerning. Still, he's 7', he has some skills, and he's a better shot blocker than Olynyk. The 1st rounder has value, even if it's a late 1. If this gets LeBron out of Miami and sticks a hot poker up Riley's arse, then it's a win.
 

swingin val

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A future 2nd rounder is not nearly a wash with a top 10 protected 1st, even with a Lebron-led CLE team.

Zeller is a legit backup center, something that Humphries is not.

The TPE was expiring in 3 days. Thornton's salary slot goes through the end of next season.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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HomeRunBaker said:
I'll only get miserable if poster keep referencing Thornton's expiring deal as a super awesome acquisition when we could have created one without this trade.....it's not difficult to do.
 
Both the first-round pick and Zeller are more than Thornton's expiring.  Granted, Zeller may just be a career backup but he's not really gotten a chance to play and from all accounts, he's a pretty good rebounder.  Maybe he develops into something more, and quite frankly, if he's given playing time, he doesn't have to flash all that much to be a commodity that some GM overpays for down the line.
 

Cellar-Door

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EL Jeffe said:
I liked Zeller at UNC and he flashed some promise as a rookie when A.V. was out. He was pretty underwhelming last year though, which is obviously concerning. Still, he's 7', he has some skills, and he's a better shot blocker than Olynyk. The 1st rounder has value, even if it's a late 1. If this gets LeBron out of Miami and sticks a hot poker up Riley's arse, then it's a win.
He played well last year in limited minutes (15MPG 70 GP). Massive increase in scoring efficiency with a higher usage rate, also improved his rebound rate, and shot blocking.
 

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
What's your point, exactly? Yes, the Celtics could have replicated the Thornton expiring contract by signing Humphries or whoever to a similarly sized one year deal. Instead, they created the exact same sort of asset--but with a different name--and got a first round pick and Tyler Zeller in the process. What's the downside?
There isn't any downside.....nor is there much upside which is why I'm still yawning. We'll end up swapping our 35th pick with the 28th and add a limited skilled backup/marginal starting 5. We just had one of those in Kardashian.

I don't see anything here to find a reason to see this trade having much if any impact.

Edit: If I was calling for Ainge's head that would be one thing. I'm not, I'm wondering how much of it was Ainge personally shoving a big one up Riley's ass more than anything else. I've got no problem with that.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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HomeRunBaker said:
There isn't any downside.....nor is there much upside which is why I'm still yawning. We'll end up swapping our 35th pick with the 28th and add a limited skilled backup/marginal starting 5. We just had one of those in Kardashian.

I don't see anything here to find a reason to see this trade having much if any impact.
 
The Cavs just announced that their plan B is Trevor Ariza. Trevor Ariza is a downgrade at SF from Deng. There's a very real chance that LeBron stays in Miami and that pick is hugely valuable. That's the upside. And if LeBron signs in Cleveland, well, again, there's no downside. You yawn at weird things.
 

ifmanis5

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Not sure what not's to like.
 
Zeller has upside- he's a coordinated 24 year old 7'1" prospect and Thornton can be moved for something. They gave up almost nothing and they made it easy for LeBron to leave Miami. Thumbs up from me.
 

Cellar-Door

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HomeRunBaker said:
There isn't any downside.....nor is there much upside which is why I'm still yawning. We'll end up swapping our 35th pick with the 28th and add a limited skilled backup/marginal starting 5. We just had one of those in Kardashian.

I don't see anything here to find a reason to see this trade having much if any impact.

Edit: If I was calling for Ainge's head that would be one thing. I'm not, I'm wondering how much of it was Ainge personally shoving a big one up Riley's ass more than anything else. I've got no problem with that.
Why are you assuming we'll necessarily be the 5th worst team in the league 2 seasons from now?
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
There isn't any downside.....nor is there much upside which is why I'm still yawning. We'll end up swapping our 35th pick with the 28th and add a limited skilled backup/marginal starting 5. We just had one of those in Kardashian.

I don't see anything here to find a reason to see this trade having much if any impact.
Humphries was a known quantity making $12M. Zeller is a 3rd year player making peanuts. I agree he's a fringe guy probably, but is still young enough to maybe develop a quality player.
 
There's also a strong chance that the pick ends up being like the 12th pick this year, if LeBron goes back to Miami for a year (as Woj suggests is still the most likely outcome), but Cleveland improves enough to get out of the top 10.
 

allstonite

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Also Zeller is 5 years younger than Humphries and has at least some upside, Humphries would have to accept that one year deal that Thornton already has, there's a decent chance Lebron doesn't go to Cleveland making that pick way more valuable, there's a chance our 2nd rounder is in the 50s rather than the 30s making the jump up that much more valuable. He basically traded nothing for assets. It's not old Pierce and KG for the Nets next 4 drafts but it's still a great deal.
 

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It would have been nice to use the Traded Player Exception for something more than a collection of assets, but it seems that Love's not to be had for the Celtics' money, so the asset upgrade has to be regarded as positive. Since the Celtics need more big men, better a Zeller at Zellers money than Humphries at Kardashian money. At least a 24-year-old has hope for improvement.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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The C's also couldn't use the TPE in a deal for a star like Love, so swapping that for Thornton's $8.6M expiring gives them another piece to add in the deal and gives them until the trade deadline to do so. 
 
They could theoretically do a Thornton/Bass/Sully/Anthony/Babb plus 2 or 3 1st round picks for Love/Martin/Budinger/Turiaf to help MIN clear out 2 or 3 bad contracts. 

CLE could include Wiggins and Bennett to beat that offer, but Minny doesn't get to clear out the Martin/Budinger contracts, and couldn't receive nearly as many picks as we could include. 
 

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bowiac said:
Humphries was a known quantity making $12M. Zeller is a 3rd year player making peanuts. I agree he's a fringe guy probably, but is still young enough to maybe develop a quality player.
 
There's also a strong chance that the pick ends up being like the 12th pick this year, if LeBron goes back to Miami for a year (as Woj suggests is still the most likely outcome), but Cleveland improves enough to get out of the top 10.
Yes the caveat is if LeBron remains in Miami. I'm not super high on Zeller and I understand why others would like the deal more if they were. He's got Olynyk's wingspan (it may be less ill have to look it up) minus the jumper but does add some athleticism to the frontline.
 

pedroia'sboys

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HomeRunBaker said:
There isn't any downside.....nor is there much upside which is why I'm still yawning. We'll end up swapping our 35th pick with the 28th and add a limited skilled backup/marginal starting 5. We just had one of those in Kardashian.

I don't see anything here to find a reason to see this trade having much if any impact.

Edit: If I was calling for Ainge's head that would be one thing. I'm not, I'm wondering how much of it was Ainge personally shoving a big one up Riley's ass more than anything else. I've got no problem with that.
This move was never going to excite you. They have a trade exception that most teams have already used, it's only purpose is to take on salary for a smaller type asset. They got a first round pick making that 9 in four years. They weren't going to let the trade exception go to waste, this type of deal was happening one way or another. 9 picks in four years excites me. This has nothing to do with Riley, treating a 1st round pick whether 11 or 22 like it's worth nothing is amusing.
 

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pedroia'sboys said:
This move was never going to excite you. They have a trade exception that most teams have already used, it's only purpose is to take on salary for a smaller type asset. They got a first round pick making that 9 in four years. They weren't going to let the trade exception go to waste, this type of deal was happening one way or another. 9 picks in four years excited me
Allowing the TPE to expire and sign Bayless for $8-9m on a one-year deal accomplishes same. This isn't part of any benefit to the deal.

The benefits are if you like alligator armed Zeller and the chance that LeBron remains in Miami to really add value to the #1 pick.
 

bowiac

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teddykgb said:
Why is everyone so down on Zeller? His numbers look solid for a young player playing limited minutes on a bad team
I don't think people are down on him, but rather being realistic that he doesn't look like a quality starter either. He wasn't a high pick, he hasn't set the league on fire in his first couple years. He's played a backup role, and done it well. That's good, and it looks like a fringe starter, or a quality backup.
 

LuckyBen

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HomeRunBaker said:
Allowing the TPE to expire and sign Bayless for $8-9m on a one-year deal accomplishes same. This isn't part of any benefit to the deal.

The benefits are if you like alligator armed Zeller and the chance that LeBron remains in Miami to really add value to the #1 pick.
 
So you are upset because we didn't sign Bayless?  Wow!
 

ivanvamp

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Long story short:  nice move by Danny.  This isn't any sort of "wow, now they're winning the championship" move, but it's a good move.  And we want our GM to make good moves.
 

swingin val

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Thornton has the ability to actually be decent and fetch another asset at trading deadline. Something that a 8 million dollar Bayless would never do
 

HomeRunBaker

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LuckyBen said:
 
So you are upset because we didn't sign Bayless?  Wow!
Lol who's upset? I'm not excited because these two moves accomplish the same thing. No need for a wow my friend. ;)
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Lol who's upset? I'm not excited because these two moves accomplish the same thing. No need for a wow my friend. ;)
Nobody would trade for Bayless at $8m. A playoff-bound team has a use for a Thornton-type player off the bench.
 

ALiveH

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his brother cody zeller had the t-rex arms (6'8" wingspan).  Tyler's wingspan isn't awesome but it's much better (7' 0").  For me the Zeller comp is kendrick perkins.  Could probably put up similar numbers in a similar role on a really good team.  Obviously does some things better (shoot, jump) and some things worse (low post defense, shot blocking).
 
A fringe starter / backup at any other position is sort of a yawn.  But, the same, who is a young cost-controlled true center w/ upside has real value.  FWIW Zeller's per-36 numbers and advanced stats looked much better in year 2 even though his MPG went down.
 
Throw that on top of a 1st round pick (probably a late 1st, but there's the possibility that it could be much better).
 
I agree Thornton is sorto meh, but there's the outside chance he could be flipped for yet another asset.
 
And, we gave up nothing.  I always love when you get real value plus lots of upside optionality for nothing.  It doesn't dramatically improve the team in and of itself, but if you do these types of trades enough times it really adds up.  And, after disappointing us with no big moves so far this offseason, that Danny was able to pull this trade gives me additional confidence that he is a much better than average GM.
 

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ALiveH said:
his brother cody zeller had the t-rex arms (6'8" wingspan).  Tyler's wingspan isn't awesome but it's much better (7' 0").  For me the Zeller comp is kendrick perkins.  Could probably put up similar numbers in a similar role on a really good team.  Obviously does some things better (shoot, jump) and some things worse (low post defense, shot blocking).
 
A fringe starter / backup at any other position is sort of a yawn.  But, the same, who is a young cost-controlled true center w/ upside has real value.  FWIW Zeller's per-36 numbers and advanced stats looked much better in year 2 even though his MPG went down.
 
Throw that on top of a 1st round pick (probably a late 1st, but there's the possibility that it could be much better).
 
I agree Thornton is sorto meh, but there's the outside chance he could be flipped for yet another asset.
 
And, we gave up nothing.  I always love when you get real value plus lots of upside optionality for nothing.  It doesn't dramatically improve the team in and of itself, but if you do these types of trades enough times it really adds up.  And, after disappointing us with no big moves so far this offseason, that Danny was able to pull this trade gives me additional confidence that he is a much better than average GM.
Yeah I'm not far from this opinion except the lots of upside opportunity. I don't see much upside however there is certainly the value of the #1 pick IF Miami shuns Cleveland again.
 

Kliq

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I really wish the pick wasn't protected. When LeBron goes back to Miami and Cleveland inevitably wins the lottery again, it would be coming our way.
 
Thornton is an asset for this team. Look at what we did with Jordan Crawford.
 

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Blacken said:
Nobody would trade for Bayless at $8m. A playoff-bound team has a use for a Thornton-type player off the bench.
This would be extremely difficult to accomplish without taking back either a bad contract as most/all playoff teams are going to have to match salaries to get a deal done. This isn't MLB trade deadline.....most playoff team pickups are of the minimum contract (Birdman, Cassell, PJ Brown) or buyout guys.
 

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Kliq said:
I really wish the pick wasn't protected. When LeBron goes back to Miami and Cleveland inevitably wins the lottery again, it would be coming our way.
 
Thornton is an asset for this team. Look at what we did with Jordan Crawford.
 
Turned him into two second round picks?
 

zenter

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HomeRunBaker said:
Lol who's upset? I'm not excited because these two moves accomplish the same thing. No need for a wow my friend. ;)
 
No, they really don't unless you're looking at a tiny sliver of the picture.
 
1) Thornton is moveable right now. Signing free agent Bayless means he cannot be moved until December.
2) This assumes Bayless is likely to accept a 1 year deal. That's not realistic in this market.
3) Thornton is more attractive to teams as a 7th-9th man than Bayless.
4) Maximum conservation of assets. TPE has been converted into another usable asset before it expires. Ainge can still technically sign Bayless if he wanted. Or, more likely, S&T.
 

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Plus Ainge may not be done yet. He still has Bogans non-guaranteed deal and the MLE without having to move anything else.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
This would be extremely difficult to accomplish without taking back either a bad contract as most/all playoff teams are going to have to match salaries to get a deal done. This isn't MLB trade deadline.....most playoff team pickups are of the minimum contract (Birdman, Cassell, PJ Brown) or buyout guys.
 
Players traded to playoff teams last year: Andre Miller, Jordan Crawford, Marshonn Brooks, Courtney Lee, Gary Neal, and Evan Turner. It's not exactly unheard of. 
 

luckiestman

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Finally a center.  This hopefully frees up Sully from having to play the 5
 

Devizier

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Whether or not James bolts to Cleveland, this deal works out:
 
On one hand, Cleveland doesn't get James and are left with a huge hole in their roster. But they may be just mediocre enough to make the playoffs while bad enough to have their pick sit in the middle of the first round, which is about as valuable as the Celtics could hope for.
 
On the other hand, James bolts to Cleveland and Ainge takes a big fat shit on Pat Riley's face. And that's a huge win, no matter how you slice it.
 

jscola85

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A few things:
 
1) Marcus Thornton is a solid basketball player, albeit overpaid.  He's a 45/35/85 shooter on a high volume of threes, which makes him a pretty damn efficient scorer.  He can also handle the rock a bit.  No defense to speak of but we have that already with Smart/Bradley/Rondo.  Could easily see flipping him at the deadline and scooping up another pick or young asset, a la Jordan Crawford.
 
2) Tyler Zeller improved his game dramatically last year, even though his MPG declined.  On a per-36 basis, his PPG, RPG, BPG, and FG% all improved materially, as did his PER (11.0 to 15.4).  He's 24 and cost-controlled through 2017 for ~$2M/year.  Even if all he becomes is a backup center, getting a solid, healthy, young center for $2M/year is a coup.
 
3) That 1st rounder is potentially really valuable.  If Lebron goes back to Miami (and Woj says most insiders still think that is the likely scenario), Cleveland will be stuck with a mediocre team in the East.  They had the 10th-worst record last year and I doubt they improve a whole lot from there over the next two years.  They will be like the Hawks - decent but not great.  That means we have a good shot at a late lotto or late teen's pick waiting for us in 2016.
 
So in summary, we traded a 2nd and used a rapidly depreciating asset to pick up a player the team could use to get better / could be flipped for more assets, a nice, cost controlled big, and another 1st.  Nothing wrong with this deal in the least.
 

E5 Yaz

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RedOctober3829 said:
I can see Ainge's middle finger pointing directly at Pat Riley all the way from here.
 
If only they could put it up into lights on the Pru
 

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This deal is like turning $25 into $50.  I suppose you could complain that we didn't get $100, or that an extra $25 doesn't get you very far, but it's still a very good deal. 
 
Not every trade is going to turn a bad team into a contender.  The key to rebuilding is to try to improve at least incrementally with every move you make.  This deal helps.
 

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riboflav said:
Wait, so now I have to root for LeBron to return to the Heat? I Hate you, Danny Ainge!
 
No. You root for LeBron to sign with Cleveland, then get injured
 

zenter

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E5 Yaz said:
 
No. You root for LeBron to sign with Cleveland, then get injured
 
The dream is that (regardless of where LeBron goes) Cleveland gets to ~37-40 wins. LeBron being there half a season before getting season-endingly-injured is the simplest path to this door.
 

sibpin

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Putting it all together... in the last 18 months
 
Danny traded:
Paul Pierce (1yr)
Kevin Garnett (2yrs)
Doc Rivers (3yrs)
Jason Terry (2yrs)
DJ White (1yr)
Leandro Barbosa with a torn ACL
Jason Collins (1yr)
unknown 2nd-round pick
 
for:
2014 BKN unprotected 1st-round pick (James Young)
2015 PHI protected 1st-round pick (almost certainly two 2nd-round picks)
2015 LAC unprotected 1st-round pick
2016 CLE protected 1st-round pick
2016 BKN unprotected 1st-round pick
2018 BKN unprotected 1st-round pick
Right to swap 1st-round picks with BKN in 2017
2016 MIA 2nd-round pick
Tyler Zeller (1yr + 2 options)
Keith Bogans non-guaranteed contract
Gerald Wallace (3yrs)
Kris Humphries (1yr)
Marcus Thornton (1yr)
 
In short, 6 first-round picks (4 unprotected) and up to 3 seasons of Zeller in exchange for 1 season of Pierce, 2 seasons of KG, 3 seasons of Doc, and taking on Wallace's albatross. This is an unbelievable return.
 

Steve Dillard

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zenter said:
 
The dream is that (regardless of where LeBron goes) Cleveland gets to ~37-40 wins. LeBron being there half a season before getting season-endingly-injured is the simplest path to this door.
 
 
Cleveland would win the lottery and get the top pick, even if they just made the playoffs.
 

zenter

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Steve Dillard said:
 
 
Cleveland would win the lottery and get the top pick, even if they just made the playoffs.
 
Hoping you meant "missed". Yes, they could in that case. It's unlikely though.