With Rob out, I assume Grant starts. Opens up the floor a bit and causes lopez to guard on the perimeter. If Al or Grant get in early foul trouble, we've got problems.
Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion
- Thread starter tims4wins
- Start date
yep, I am not worried about having to play Grant more.... I am worried about the minutes that we need someone other than Grant to fill in, and the chances this crew responds to the "they let everything go" night from the last crew by putting everybody in foul trouble in the first half
IF meniscus related, options are:
-- recurrent meniscus tear
--cartilage injury (less cushioning)
--bone bruise (less cushioning)
--joint effusion (related to one of the 3 above)
IF not meniscus related:
Who knows.... would be better if it's some unrelated tendinitis but kinda doubt it.
Bucks aren't the best matchup for Rob so I think we still have a chance but our front line is awfully thin now.
-- recurrent meniscus tear
--cartilage injury (less cushioning)
--bone bruise (less cushioning)
--joint effusion (related to one of the 3 above)
IF not meniscus related:
Who knows.... would be better if it's some unrelated tendinitis but kinda doubt it.
Bucks aren't the best matchup for Rob so I think we still have a chance but our front line is awfully thin now.
Derrick White +18 tonight. It's amazing watching him on the defensive end. If a ball is in the air, he gets to it. He draws charges. He gets stripped. And he hardly ever gives up easy baskets. At some point, people just have to understand that whether or not he scores, he's super valuable to have on the court.
White was the underrated star of the night. Fantastic on both ends of the floor.
Horford with 42 intense playoff minutes tonight. He probably won’t bounce back well on Wednesday but tonight we needed every one of these!
White is really good. I know his shooting is iffy to begin with and just bad in the playoffs, but he's really good at everything else, and that does matter for this team.
The difference between needing 30 minutes from him---and him being in the right place and making the right pass and contesting shots and rebounds---and Dennis Schroder looking for his next shot/contact is enormous. Even if White is shooting 30% all playoffs (which I hope changes) he's still a playable guy even in the biggest, toughest games. That's really valuable
The difference between needing 30 minutes from him---and him being in the right place and making the right pass and contesting shots and rebounds---and Dennis Schroder looking for his next shot/contact is enormous. Even if White is shooting 30% all playoffs (which I hope changes) he's still a playable guy even in the biggest, toughest games. That's really valuable
Hey, he was 4 for 6 tonite from the floor (1 for 3 from beyond the arc). Every Celtic should have shot so terribly.
Theis -10 tonight. Only negative player. Those 3’s he took were poor choices but he got kinda jobbed on some calls which is par for the course.
Props to Ime for forcing the small ball lineup with White and Pritchard and keeping Grant and Theis on the bench. Forced Bud to keep Portis off the court and made Bud react rather than reacting to Bud.
Props to Ime for forcing the small ball lineup with White and Pritchard and keeping Grant and Theis on the bench. Forced Bud to keep Portis off the court and made Bud react rather than reacting to Bud.
Personal Fouls
Bos 25
Mil 17
Free Throws
Bos 18-20
Mil 21-27
Milwaukee sure can't complain about the refs tonight. I mean, they still might, but they shouldn't. I won't even bother getting into the calls on an individual basis.
Bos 25
Mil 17
Free Throws
Bos 18-20
Mil 21-27
Milwaukee sure can't complain about the refs tonight. I mean, they still might, but they shouldn't. I won't even bother getting into the calls on an individual basis.
Only 5 fouls in about 17 minutes this series for Theis.
Seemed like that Bucks lineup with GA at the 5 was horrendous defensively. Just saw post-game Portis getting some shooting in - wonder if he’s steaming about only getting 14 minutes. He was minus 6 but I thought he was killing them on the boards early and don’t mind that decision by Bud.
Giannis is obviously incredible. But man he's had to WORK for his buckets against this team.
G1: 9-25 (.360)
G2: 11-27 (.407)
G3: 16-30 (.533)
G4: 14-32 (.438)
TOT: 50-114 (.439)
And this is a guy who shot 55.3% from the field during the season. So yeah, you average 29 shots a game in the NBA, you'd better be scoring 30+ points a game. (and he is: 32.0 ppg this series) But it ain't an easy 32.
G1: 9-25 (.360)
G2: 11-27 (.407)
G3: 16-30 (.533)
G4: 14-32 (.438)
TOT: 50-114 (.439)
And this is a guy who shot 55.3% from the field during the season. So yeah, you average 29 shots a game in the NBA, you'd better be scoring 30+ points a game. (and he is: 32.0 ppg this series) But it ain't an easy 32.
Just... wow.
First thing: this is not Jayson Tatum's team, it is Al Horford's team. Al is playing his best basketball as a Celtic and willing/carrying the team.
Tatum and Horford each scored 30, but Tatum spent huge portions of this game in a similar deep funk to the one he was in on Saturday. But unlike Saturday, he was able to find ways to contribute, and he caught fire at a few cruvial times.
Perhaps by design, perhaps by foul trouble, Derrick White played the whole 4th quarter, and the Celtics are just a better offensive basketball time with him in the game.
Anyway...
The Celtics came out looking tense and out of sorts in this game. Their offense was a mess and their defense was getting destroyed on the glass. Celtics were down by 7 after one and lucky it wasn't more. The second quarter they actually managed to come back, eventually taking a 3 point lead but then losing it and being down 1 at the half.
For the third quarter, the Celtics basically pulled an encore from Saturday and once again laid a massive egg. This time, the added in taking a shitload of fouls. (At one point in the game, the foul disparity was 12 called on Milwaukee, 24 called on Boston). In the middle of the third quarter, Tatum looked like he was going to get it going, finally, hit a couple of shots and has his shooting line up to 6 for 12. "Tatum's finally going to put the team on his back," I thought, only to see him miss his next 4 in quick succession. He would be 6 for 18 before he started hitting again. After a Tatum 3 to brig the Celtics to within 2 (part of him looking like he was about to go off as I just mentioned), they kind of fell apart and allowed a 13-7 run.
They started to pull back into it, and Brown hit a jumper to bring them within 8. Milwaukee misses at the other end, Celtics go to Brown, he drives, refs call a foul on Jrue - his 4th! Coach Bud is going to pull Jrue out, but first he does his challenge. The play looks weird. Jrue kind of gets his feet down before Jaylen makes his move, but he is leaning back and off balance, and he straightens up into Brown. Haven't seen one like that before. I thought the call wouls stand because clanneged charges rarely get reversed. But, I was wrong. They changed it to a charge on Jaylen, meaning Jrue had only 3 fouls and Jaylen had 5! The score was 78-70 at that point, 1:47 to go, and when play resumed Smart fouled Jrue at the other end, he hits his free throws, and the eltics are down 10. At some point in the quarter, Giannis and Horford started getting into it. After a dunk, Giannis was whistled for a technical for taunting Horford.
At that point I thought it might be all she wrote, and maybe it would have been, had Al Horford not put the team on his back and carried them to victory. From that 80-70 point on, it was all Celtics, ad a lot of it was all Horford. Although White did close out the quarter with a three, so Celtice entered the 4th down 7...
... And won the quarter, 43-28. Al (two) and Smart (three) opened the quarter hitting jumpers to cut the lead to 2, while the Celtics defense finally locked in and started getting stops. Down 80-78, Horford rebounds a Jrue missed layup, starts the break, gets it back in transition and drives from the right corner for a dunk. Giannis is guarding him and Al posterizes him, gets the and 1, lands, screams. This is steady veteran Al we are talking about so you know he was fired up. But when he landed after the dunk and being fouled, his elbow hit Giannis in the head, and they called a dead ball technical om him. Elbow to the head is only OK if it is Rob's head, I guess. Anyway, the T and the and 1 were both hit, so tie game 81-81.
Milaukee goes back up by 4, but Al hits a pair of jumpers (a 2 and a 3) around a White 2 and suddently the Celtics are up 3. Milwaukee gets up 2 again, 94-92, 6 to play, and Al drills a three to put the Celtics ahead for good, 95-94. Milwaukee misses at the other end, Al starts the transition, gives it up, gets it back, takes it into the post, hits a crazy hook shot, and 1, buries the FT for his 16th point of the quarter and his 30th of the night. Celtics up 4.
Milwaukee scores to cut it to 2, and then Tatum's "on" switch is flipped, and he runs off 8 straight to put the game away. Layup, 6-foot jumper and one, three. Ten point lead. The three was set up by Marcus Smart taking a charge from Giannis at the other end.
Milwaukee made a bit of a game of it, hitting a couple of threes and cuttin gthe lead to 6, but at some point Marcus realized that he could iso, take his defender down into the post, and create little jumpers for himself. Hit a couple of key baskets down the stretch that way. Brown and White added free throws and that was it.
The way this game and yesterday's played out, I wonder if the Celtics can just sustain their intensity for longer than the Bucks. Two epic 4th quarter collapses by Milwaukee, although they tightened up in the final minute and pulled out one win.
First thing: this is not Jayson Tatum's team, it is Al Horford's team. Al is playing his best basketball as a Celtic and willing/carrying the team.
Tatum and Horford each scored 30, but Tatum spent huge portions of this game in a similar deep funk to the one he was in on Saturday. But unlike Saturday, he was able to find ways to contribute, and he caught fire at a few cruvial times.
Perhaps by design, perhaps by foul trouble, Derrick White played the whole 4th quarter, and the Celtics are just a better offensive basketball time with him in the game.
Anyway...
The Celtics came out looking tense and out of sorts in this game. Their offense was a mess and their defense was getting destroyed on the glass. Celtics were down by 7 after one and lucky it wasn't more. The second quarter they actually managed to come back, eventually taking a 3 point lead but then losing it and being down 1 at the half.
For the third quarter, the Celtics basically pulled an encore from Saturday and once again laid a massive egg. This time, the added in taking a shitload of fouls. (At one point in the game, the foul disparity was 12 called on Milwaukee, 24 called on Boston). In the middle of the third quarter, Tatum looked like he was going to get it going, finally, hit a couple of shots and has his shooting line up to 6 for 12. "Tatum's finally going to put the team on his back," I thought, only to see him miss his next 4 in quick succession. He would be 6 for 18 before he started hitting again. After a Tatum 3 to brig the Celtics to within 2 (part of him looking like he was about to go off as I just mentioned), they kind of fell apart and allowed a 13-7 run.
They started to pull back into it, and Brown hit a jumper to bring them within 8. Milwaukee misses at the other end, Celtics go to Brown, he drives, refs call a foul on Jrue - his 4th! Coach Bud is going to pull Jrue out, but first he does his challenge. The play looks weird. Jrue kind of gets his feet down before Jaylen makes his move, but he is leaning back and off balance, and he straightens up into Brown. Haven't seen one like that before. I thought the call wouls stand because clanneged charges rarely get reversed. But, I was wrong. They changed it to a charge on Jaylen, meaning Jrue had only 3 fouls and Jaylen had 5! The score was 78-70 at that point, 1:47 to go, and when play resumed Smart fouled Jrue at the other end, he hits his free throws, and the eltics are down 10. At some point in the quarter, Giannis and Horford started getting into it. After a dunk, Giannis was whistled for a technical for taunting Horford.
At that point I thought it might be all she wrote, and maybe it would have been, had Al Horford not put the team on his back and carried them to victory. From that 80-70 point on, it was all Celtics, ad a lot of it was all Horford. Although White did close out the quarter with a three, so Celtice entered the 4th down 7...
... And won the quarter, 43-28. Al (two) and Smart (three) opened the quarter hitting jumpers to cut the lead to 2, while the Celtics defense finally locked in and started getting stops. Down 80-78, Horford rebounds a Jrue missed layup, starts the break, gets it back in transition and drives from the right corner for a dunk. Giannis is guarding him and Al posterizes him, gets the and 1, lands, screams. This is steady veteran Al we are talking about so you know he was fired up. But when he landed after the dunk and being fouled, his elbow hit Giannis in the head, and they called a dead ball technical om him. Elbow to the head is only OK if it is Rob's head, I guess. Anyway, the T and the and 1 were both hit, so tie game 81-81.
Milaukee goes back up by 4, but Al hits a pair of jumpers (a 2 and a 3) around a White 2 and suddently the Celtics are up 3. Milwaukee gets up 2 again, 94-92, 6 to play, and Al drills a three to put the Celtics ahead for good, 95-94. Milwaukee misses at the other end, Al starts the transition, gives it up, gets it back, takes it into the post, hits a crazy hook shot, and 1, buries the FT for his 16th point of the quarter and his 30th of the night. Celtics up 4.
Milwaukee scores to cut it to 2, and then Tatum's "on" switch is flipped, and he runs off 8 straight to put the game away. Layup, 6-foot jumper and one, three. Ten point lead. The three was set up by Marcus Smart taking a charge from Giannis at the other end.
Milwaukee made a bit of a game of it, hitting a couple of threes and cuttin gthe lead to 6, but at some point Marcus realized that he could iso, take his defender down into the post, and create little jumpers for himself. Hit a couple of key baskets down the stretch that way. Brown and White added free throws and that was it.
The way this game and yesterday's played out, I wonder if the Celtics can just sustain their intensity for longer than the Bucks. Two epic 4th quarter collapses by Milwaukee, although they tightened up in the final minute and pulled out one win.
Great recap EJ. Great games from Horford and White, and Smart and Tatum came up big down the stretch. Frustrating for 3 quarters as it seemed they just couldn't make shots with any consistency, and the careless turnovers were turning into points for Milwaukee. But the half court defense kept them in it, and then they just smoked em in the 4th.
C's finish this in six. Giannis is going to do his thing (and maybe the refs too), but unless Middleton can come back the C's are the more talented team.
Next two games are both in the evening - C's seem to play much better at night.
Next two games are both in the evening - C's seem to play much better at night.
The Bucks opened the fourth with four straight possessions where Giannis and Jrue took turns taking bad threes (contested in Jrue's case, a wide open three in Giannis case) and contested midranges and layups. The only thing that kept them in it was Brook Lopez running amok amongst the dwarves on the follow.
The takeaway is if the Cs can make Giannis work hard while not getting anyone fouled out, fatigue is going to continue to be an ally. As soon as Giannis stopped going inside, the game changed.
Obviously there are lots of broken dreams left by those who have tried that strategy and failed in the past. However Boston has the D/personnel to play this way. Its the hoops equivalent of bend but don't break.
Finally, that win feels like the sort that ought to put a lot of confidence in the Cs heads and a lot of doubt in the Bucks domes. These are all professionals but the Bucks had the Cs breaking in the third and they obviously got back up off the mat. As good as this game feels for Boston, you would think its equally frustrating for Milwaukee. The Cs never go away.
The takeaway is if the Cs can make Giannis work hard while not getting anyone fouled out, fatigue is going to continue to be an ally. As soon as Giannis stopped going inside, the game changed.
Obviously there are lots of broken dreams left by those who have tried that strategy and failed in the past. However Boston has the D/personnel to play this way. Its the hoops equivalent of bend but don't break.
Finally, that win feels like the sort that ought to put a lot of confidence in the Cs heads and a lot of doubt in the Bucks domes. These are all professionals but the Bucks had the Cs breaking in the third and they obviously got back up off the mat. As good as this game feels for Boston, you would think its equally frustrating for Milwaukee. The Cs never go away.
Good catch. I’d blocked out everything about Grant’s horrific night from my consciousness.
Amazingly neither Grant nor Theis were as bad as Jrue Holiday and his -23!
9 assists but just 5-22. Giannis led them with 32 attempts, the Jrue, then Lopez with 11. Which seems to be the common distribution without Middleton.
If Bud can’t figure out how to deploy Portis in this series it’s not going to work out for them.
I think the most amazing minor stat of G4 is that GA was +1 after scoring 34 points. I have no idea what to make of that (other than +/- in any given game means nothing). Weird.
The difference to me was that Theis was much more instrumental in his -10 than Grant was in his -17.
When MIL has to take the ball out of the net, they have a hard time scoring. If the Cs take care of the ball, they can have multiple runs next game.
I was getting nervous in the 3rd when he was seemingly scoring on every possession and drawing free throws at an alarming rate. He ended up going 5-8 in the 3rd and I thought he would continue to dominate in the 4th. He definitely slowed down in the 4th where he went 3-7 with 2 turnovers.
The Celtics remarkable shooting in the 4th was probably a bigger factor than Giannis tiring in the 4th. Tatum, Horford and Smart went supernova combining to go 15-17 from the floor including 4-4 from three. They were white hot.
Oh yeah, let's memorialize this too. It also is glorious.
View: https://twitter.com/Alex__Monaco/status/1523843830520467457?t=MrqPiBojvccB0esScuuOyA&s=19
View: https://twitter.com/Alex__Monaco/status/1523843830520467457?t=MrqPiBojvccB0esScuuOyA&s=19
Yeah. For all of the griping in the other thread, they got this one right. Great take by Marcus.
I know some people can't get over the officiating, but this is really, really fantastic stuff. Two excellent teams; well coached and disciplined and understanding how to play both sides of the ball. Both teams have to continually problem-solve, and attempt to surprise their opponent with different looks while adjusting to the moves the other team is making. The physicality and intensity is just so extreme; the play in the fourth quarter when Tatum took to the hoop, and crashed into some guys as he was landing and eventually four different players hit the deck, was incredible.
This is really basketball at it's best; a series determined by a combination of athleticism, intelligence and mental fortitude with a ton of momentum swings.
This is really basketball at it's best; a series determined by a combination of athleticism, intelligence and mental fortitude with a ton of momentum swings.
Couldn't agree more. Basically had this conversation with my brother over the phone right as the game ended, even with the example that you used (Tatum himself was the fourth guy on the floor...he basically even took himself out in that collision). Great, great basketball. Execution plus chess-match. Mad physicality, but the refs (and to their credit, the players) not letting it go too far.
I know some people can't get over the complaining about the officiating, but this is really, really frustrating stuff. Two excellent teams, well coached and disciplined and having no idea how to anticipate the play of the referees. The physicality and intensity is just so extreme, the most gifted player on the planet being gifted advantages and benefits that a) he doesn't need and b) is not afforded the opposition; the three plays where he made contact with the face/head of the opposition with nary a call against him.
This is really basketball at it's worst, when the series is unduly influenced by the referees, causing talented players to be on the bench for things they haven't done or have done (but their opponents routinely do to them with impunity). It is fantastic when a team is able to win in spite of those disadvantages - it would be an even better product if the referees were more consistent about their whistles and the series could be truly be determined by the players on the floor, competing with their opponents without wondering if the next play is the one where they will be screwed.
This is really basketball at it's worst, when the series is unduly influenced by the referees, causing talented players to be on the bench for things they haven't done or have done (but their opponents routinely do to them with impunity). It is fantastic when a team is able to win in spite of those disadvantages - it would be an even better product if the referees were more consistent about their whistles and the series could be truly be determined by the players on the floor, competing with their opponents without wondering if the next play is the one where they will be screwed.
Celtics getting this game in Milwaukee was obviously huge. Got home court back, momentum going home, etc. I would love to see Tatum get going early in G5.
The smaller lineup paid dividends, forcing Lopez to leave the paint and defend shooters really opened things up. Knocking down shots certainly helped. The fact that we won with nothing from GW and TimeLord out is incredibly heartening.
The smaller lineup paid dividends, forcing Lopez to leave the paint and defend shooters really opened things up. Knocking down shots certainly helped. The fact that we won with nothing from GW and TimeLord out is incredibly heartening.
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Please use the ref thread for your complaints. That is a safe space for those who want to feel aggrieved after a huge road playoff win against the best player on the planet and the defending champs. We want to discuss the game, the teams, strategy etc.
Fair. I am just over the officiating tears clogging up this thread. Its at epidemic levels of late.
OK, a question in an attempt to contribute/draw out strategy discussion.
How do folks feel about the timing of rotations that Ime is using? I'm not speaking to using different players, or anything there. Simply, I think the Cs have been caught on the floor gassed at times (I know playoffs means lots of minutes). I am watching the chess between coaches and I see MIL subbing in players at the 6-7 minute of the 1st quarter for example - and I don't think it was because MIL needed a personnel change - rather I see him managing minutes. Those players didn't stay off the court long, but it was a short break that I assume allowed them to be a some small amount fresher.
I know THIS game Ime was dealing with foul troubles with Jaylen especially, but does Ime tend to leave his players on the court too long?
How do folks feel about the timing of rotations that Ime is using? I'm not speaking to using different players, or anything there. Simply, I think the Cs have been caught on the floor gassed at times (I know playoffs means lots of minutes). I am watching the chess between coaches and I see MIL subbing in players at the 6-7 minute of the 1st quarter for example - and I don't think it was because MIL needed a personnel change - rather I see him managing minutes. Those players didn't stay off the court long, but it was a short break that I assume allowed them to be a some small amount fresher.
I know THIS game Ime was dealing with foul troubles with Jaylen especially, but does Ime tend to leave his players on the court too long?
Yeah; I felt particularly well-brushed up on the X's and O's of this series heading into it, probably thanks to the long-wait following the Celtics sweep, but each game has brought something new to the table. The Celtics have adapted to the Bucks defense and forced them to pivot away from just bombing threes. Tonight, the Bucks did a good job identifying that the double teams on Giannis/Jrue were coming from the Celtics interior defenders, which left Lopez open near the basket for easy buckets. Ime will probably have to adjust because that was just too easy of an outlet for Milwaukee. The gap between the intensity and the tactics between this series and the Nets series is really night and day. It's crazy to think Brooklyn was considered a series contender after watching this WAR.
I agree that the players are playing super hard but not letting it go too far. Sure there is emotion, but everything I've seen has been two teams just playing super hard and not backing down; it's great basketball. The GS/Memphis series has had it's elements and chipiness and downright dirty play that I think crosses a line; but this has kept things right up to the edge.
It’s because we’re playing a star who plays a crazy physical style of play and the refs allow him to. It’s no different than the Jordan Rules but it can be frustrating to watch at times. I get it – my head was going to explode during the 3Q.
It’s to Ime’s credit that he doesn’t give a second thought to the “Coach has to stand up for his guys” ridiculousness or any other fan- or media-driven nonsense. He knows what the dynamic is, coaches his guys to play through it and preaches enough flexibility on D that when a guy gets in foul trouble, he can move him off the primary ball handlers and get somebody else in there.
When did 35 year old Wes Matthews become a pretty good defender? Is it just the Bucks system / Giannis + Lopez making everyone else look better?
Agreed. I can’t wait for 3 more games of this!!! Whoever escapes isn’t going to have much left for G1 of the EC Finals.
This I like. A little animosity between the teams. Our Celtics are of the same opinion that Giannis is dirty.
View: https://streamable.com/6g6ss1
View: https://streamable.com/6g6ss1
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The last two games the Celtics have impressed me more than all year. Neither game did they play well or get both Js going as most seem to think is the key, but they battled their asses off both games.
The difference between this ball and the bubble playoffs?
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That’s a fuckin’ cheap shot and looks to me like a flagrant. Extends the forearm unnaturally to push his around the hip midair with the game in hand. No play on the ball. Jaylen has every right to tell him to f off, and I’m glad Al Rambis’d him and murdered his soul on live TV.
Grayson Allen getting cooked repeatedly continues to bring joy. More importantly, its proven to be an effective strategy for the Celtics. Hard to see them deviating from that going forward.
He needs to be on the floor more, somehow. Numbers aren't necessarily there but the Celtics better at both ends when he is on the floor. (By 'more', I mean his minutes should be closer to the 24 he played tonight than to the 22 he averaged in game 1 to 3.
This series has been weird. In games 3 and 4 it has been the Celtics who played better in the 4th quarter, with Milwaukee looking gassed. I think Milwaukee's problem is that the style they play to beat the Celtics is one they cannot susatin for 4 quarters. Giannis was gassed in the 4th and settled for a lot of jumpers even though that's obviously not his game.