Sure, but you can only play the team that the schedule puts out on the field against you. We are done with the A's this week, so when do we play Kansas City?Look...it's the 2023 Oakland A's. He's been great, and I'm delighted, but this isn't exactly Pedro mowing down a loaded CLE team or Kerry Wood destroying a loaded HOU team.
Soon! And 7 times!Sure, but you can only play the team that the schedule puts out on the field against you. We are done with the A's this week, so when do we play Kansas City?
Speaking of that, does Pedro's six inning relief stint in game 5 of the 1999 ALDS rank as the single greatest relief appearance of all time? Let's check the boxes:Look...it's the 2023 Oakland A's. He's been great, and I'm delighted, but this isn't exactly Pedro mowing down a loaded CLE team or Kerry Wood destroying a loaded HOU team.
Two others come to mind without doing research:Well, Ernie Shore has to be up there.
Nolan Ryan pitched 7 innings of relief and had 2 hits in the 1969 NLCS clincher. (3-0 series win, so also not an elimination game)McNally retired the first Dodger batter in the third, but then allowed three consecutive bases on balls. Orioles Manager Hank Bauer exhibited a quick hook and replaced the twenty-three year-old with Moe Drabowsky. The veteran reliever struck out Wes Parker, but then yielded a walk to Jim Gilliam that resulted in Johnson crossing home. Drabowsky maintained his composure though and induced John Roseboro to foul out. It would be LA's last scoring opportunity for the rest of the day. The thirty-one year-old reliever went on to sit down the Dodgers' sides in the fourth and fifth innings while tying the Fall Classic record of six consecutive strikeouts. In the end, he totaled eleven strikeouts in 6 2/3 scoreless innings and allowed only one hit on the way to a 5-2 opening lead.
We've had this discussion a few times in the past and every time there is no perfect parallel. In others, the stakes weren't higher, or the lineup wasn't as terrifying, or the relief appearance didn't last nearly as long. The era too mattered....it was the legit height of the steroid era where the average ERA was around 5.00.Speaking of that, does Pedro's six inning relief stint in game 5 of the 1999 ALDS rank as the single greatest relief appearance of all time? Let's check the boxes:
- All-or-nothing, deciding game 5 of the series
- Enters the game with it tied 8-8
- Sox' pitchers (Saberhagen & Lowe) had been absolutely battered by Cleveland
- Facing an all-time great lineup - here's who Cleveland had: Thome (HOFer), RAlomar (HOFer), Vizquel (3x All-star), Fryman (5x All-star), Justice (3x All-star), Lofton (6x All-star), Manny (12x All-star), Baines (HOFer), Cordero (All-star), SAlomar (6x All-star), Baerga (3x All-star), Sexson (2x All-star)
- Six innings of shutout, NO HIT, ball, striking out 8
And all of this with a bad back that allowed him to only throw 90 miles an hour (he could hit 99 when healthy).
This article - https://www.mlb.com/news/greatest-postseason-relief-performances - says Pedro had a shoulder injury, not a back injury.Speaking of that, does Pedro's six inning relief stint in game 5 of the 1999 ALDS rank as the single greatest relief appearance of all time? Let's check the boxes:
- All-or-nothing, deciding game 5 of the series
- Enters the game with it tied 8-8
- Sox' pitchers (Saberhagen & Lowe) had been absolutely battered by Cleveland
- Facing an all-time great lineup - here's who Cleveland had: Thome (HOFer), RAlomar (HOFer), Vizquel (3x All-star), Fryman (5x All-star), Justice (3x All-star), Lofton (6x All-star), Manny (12x All-star), Baines (HOFer), Cordero (All-star), SAlomar (6x All-star), Baerga (3x All-star), Sexson (2x All-star)
- Six innings of shutout, NO HIT, ball, striking out 8
And all of this with a bad back that allowed him to only throw 90 miles an hour (he could hit 99 when healthy).
I think that goes for any high-level athlete. You see a great basketball player go 2/15 followed up by a 11/18 game. A golfer in the first round of a tournament shoots a 64 then the next day shoots a 78.Maybe a side-discussion... but I'm always floored by how difficult it is to 1. Just be a good ML pitcher and then 2. how much more difficult it is to be consistently good. Just the slightest little change can turn a dominant curve (or any pitch) into a meatball and how difficult it is to pick up on that (as the pitcher throwing it).
Like the difference between good Pivetta and bad Pivetta is just grip? release point? all these little things being incrementally off/on.....
Thanks, this is why I can't really accept a lot of the negativity you see out there (beyond SOSH) about how someone sucks/is an idiot/etc. They're actually all the elite of the elite, and the top guys are more consistent or have some special edge or both. That's why it's not stupid to keep Ort -- what if he figures out that last little adjustment? Even on a team level, the differences are still often pretty thin across the roster. Related: the recent emphasis on hyperathleticism is not a coincidence. It's easier to spot and predict/project than slight improvements in LD% or spin rates.Maybe a side-discussion... but I'm always floored by how difficult it is to 1. Just be a good ML pitcher and then 2. how much more difficult it is to be consistently good. Just the slightest little change can turn a dominant curve (or any pitch) into a meatball and how difficult it is to pick up on that (as the pitcher throwing it).
Like the difference between good Pivetta and bad Pivetta is just grip? release point? all these little things being incrementally off/on.....
It's tougher for pitchers to correct flaws once the flaws start to develop. Batters can work out their kinks in the batting cage, find the flaw, and through repetition work it out to the point that muscle memory takes over. A large part of practice is to make a lot of these thing reflexive rather than conscious decisions.Maybe a side-discussion... but I'm always floored by how difficult it is to 1. Just be a good ML pitcher and then 2. how much more difficult it is to be consistently good. Just the slightest little change can turn a dominant curve (or any pitch) into a meatball and how difficult it is to pick up on that (as the pitcher throwing it).
Like the difference between good Pivetta and bad Pivetta is just grip? release point? all these little things being incrementally off/on.....
100%. I always think of this when fans are upset at a player in any sport for not performing. These guys are the top players on their little league teams, travel ball teams, high school, college....all the way until the pros. They are far better than most of us will ever hope to be so it's hard for me to see them as scrubs.I had a similar thought watching the A’s last night. We’re all talking about how irredeemably terrible they are, and then Allen and Díaz made an incredible defensive play to force a runner at third. And it’s like, these guys are terrible MLB players on a historically bad team, but they are *fantastic* at baseball.
Nothing a fan can say is funnier than "I could do better than that" about a struggling/slumping professional athlete. No, no you couldn't.100%. I always think of this when fans are upset at a player in any sport for not performing. These guys are the top players on their little league teams, travel ball teams, high school, college....all the way until the pros. They are far better than most of us will ever hope to be so it's hard for me to see them as scrubs.
Here in this forum we see people all the time say things like, "He is bad at baseball." LOL no he isn't. He's literally a world class baseball player.Nothing a fan can say is funnier than "I could do better than that" about a struggling/slumping professional athlete. No, no you couldn't.
How about fans saying they could be better than that stupid GM? I'd love to confront those people about what they do and how I could do their job in my sleep better than them. But of course they are mostly just permanently miserable people so it's not worth it.Nothing a fan can say is funnier than "I could do better than that" about a struggling/slumping professional athlete. No, no you couldn't.
I think (or at least really really hope) that the "relative to other players" is implied in every "he sucks!"Here in this forum we see people all the time say things like, "He is bad at baseball." LOL no he isn't. He's literally a world class baseball player.
I know they're just comparing them to BETTER major leaguers, but still, it's funny.
The only time I say that is when the player hits into a rally-killing double play because my worst case is striking out (there's no way I could even catch up to an MLB changeup).Nothing a fan can say is funnier than "I could do better than that" about a struggling/slumping professional athlete. No, no you couldn't.
So when I attended Red Sox fantasy camp about ten years ago, the highlight of the week is the camper teams getting to play a 3 inning game against the teams made up of former pros. Most of the pros are in their mid 50s at the youngest, some guys are much older than that (Rick Wise was there at age 68). Most of the campers are in their 30s and 40s, although some were older.Nothing a fan can say is funnier than "I could do better than that" about a struggling/slumping professional athlete. No, no you couldn't.
Remember Robert Stock? Pitched for the Sox in 2020 for a bit, looked like a dumpy oil furnace technician. He's good on Twitter. Anyway, he's had a very marginal MLB career, negative WAR for his career, and last night he threw a no-hitter for the Long Island Ducks where he reached 95 MPH in every inning and touched 98 a couple of times.Here in this forum we see people all the time say things like, "He is bad at baseball." LOL no he isn't. He's literally a world class baseball player.
I know they're just comparing them to BETTER major leaguers, but still, it's funny.
Better? No. But I think I could give the Red Sox what they got from Caleb Hamilton at the plate this year. 0-5 with 5 strikeouts seems doable. I'd just have to get in at DH somehow, because I wouldn't survive long enough to get an at bat if I had to catch.Nothing a fan can say is funnier than "I could do better than that" about a struggling/slumping professional athlete. No, no you couldn't.
Untrue. I can think of three things I could do at least as well as your average MLB player:Nothing a fan can say is funnier than "I could do better than that" about a struggling/slumping professional athlete. No, no you couldn't.
OK but in the case of the worst MLB player the pitcher still has to expend effort into finishing his pitches. Against any of us they could soft-toss it past us and save themselves for a real hitter. Our best hope would be that doing so would throw the pitcher off his rhythm.Untrue. I can think of three things I could do at least as well as your average MLB player:
1. Swinging strike (as batter)
2. Called strike (as batter)
3. Balk
It’s a well-taken point. Still, though: I’m a Bloom apologist, but I am waaaay closer to being able to run a team as well as Chaim Bloom than I am to playing SS like Nick Allen or pitching like Sam Noll.How about fans saying they could be better than that stupid GM? I'd love to confront those people about what they do and how I could do their job in my sleep better than them. But of course they are mostly just permanently miserable people so it's not worth it.
Baseball isn't a game of inches, it's a game of millimeters.
You (generic) may be closer, but only in the sense that standing on a chair gets you closer to the moon.It’s a well-taken point. Still, though: I’m a Bloom apologist, but I am waaaay closer to being able to run a team as well as Chaim Bloom than I am to playing SS like Nick Allen or pitching like Sam Noll.
If you don’t know I’m useless there one chance I outproduce an actual mlb player: there’s no way I’m getting out of the way of an errant pitch. I mean I’d try out of reflex and self preservation, but that’s all happening way faster than my brain connects to the extremities.OK but in the case of the worst MLB player the pitcher still has to expend effort into finishing his pitches. Against any of us they could soft-toss it past us and save themselves for a real hitter. Our best hope would be that doing so would throw the pitcher off his rhythm.
I picked him to have the most W’s for the season…. It’s still unlikely but if he does, it’d be in a completely unexpected way. Im real glad they didn’t trade him…. Guys that can stay healthy are a way undervalued assetI don't know what other pitchers are having a great month of July, but let's throw Nick's hat in the ring for pitcher of the month (still more appearances possible I know).
Games 5 W 3 L 0 IP 21 H 9 R 4 ER 3 BB 6 SO 33 SO/9 14.1 WHIP 0.714 ERA 1.29
Yep, he's kind of like the current day Bronson Arroyo. League average pitching at volume has a lot of value.I picked him to have the most W’s for the season…. It’s still unlikely but if he does, it’d be in a completely unexpected way. Im real glad they didn’t trade him…. Guys that can stay healthy are a way undervalued asset
Oh ya great comparison.Yep, he's kind of like the current day Bronson Arroyo. League average pitching at volume has a lot of value.
Somewhat ironic that if the injured starters return, Pivetta might again be a man without a country.I picked him to have the most W’s for the season…. It’s still unlikely but if he does, it’d be in a completely unexpected way. Im real glad they didn’t trade him…. Guys that can stay healthy are a way undervalued asset
Also possible they continue with the bullpen games to keep everyone healthy and let Pivetta, Sale, Whitlock and Houck all take 3-4 inning chunks until they're certain Sale is healthy.Somewhat ironic that if the injured starters return, Pivetta might again be a man without a country.
I’m puzzled how they assign a W to a bullpen game….Also possible they continue with the bullpen games to keep everyone healthy and let Pivetta, Sale, Whitlock and Houck all take 3-4 inning chunks until they're certain Sale is healthy.
If the starter doesn’t go 5, it’s just scorers discretion i believeI’m puzzled how they assign a W to a bullpen game….
It is, but sometimes it is obvious.If the starter doesn’t go 5, it’s just scorers discretion i believe
If the starter doesn’t go 5, it’s just scorers discretion i believe
I believe it's scorer's discretion only if the lead is taken while the starter is still in the game but he doesn't complete five innings. Otherwise, wins are awarded to the pitcher who was in the game when the winning run was scored.It is, but sometimes it is obvious.
The scorer can make changes. For example if a pitcher (not the starter) finishes an inning down 6-3 (and he allowed 4 runs to score thus giving up the lead) and then the team comes back and takes the lead next inning he may not award him the win.I believe it's scorer's discretion only if the lead is taken while the starter is still in the game but he doesn't complete five innings. Otherwise, wins are awarded to the pitcher who was in the game when the winning run was scored.
You're right, but he's been WAY better than league average in this relief role though.Yep, he's kind of like the current day Bronson Arroyo. League average pitching at volume has a lot of value.
.437 OPS against. It is ridiculous. Pedro in 2000, his best year, was .473.You're right, but he's been WAY better than league average in this relief role though.
It is, but sometimes it is obvious.
Just ask Tim Lollar...I believe it's scorer's discretion only if the lead is taken while the starter is still in the game but he doesn't complete five innings. Otherwise, wins are awarded to the pitcher who was in the game when the winning run was scored.
My golf game has been consistent this year and I'm playing at a 5.3 cap. I have multiple rounds around par. I should either be on the PGA Tour or I would get my ass kicked at every level of professional golf (PGA, LPGA, DP World, Senior Tour, Korn Ferry, etc.).You (generic) may be closer, but only in the sense that standing on a chair gets you closer to the moon.
I have a buddy who has attended Red Sox fantasy camp for each of the past 10 years or so, maybe SJH knows him (my buddy owns the Clam Shack in Kennebunkport, ME). Anyway, he had a similar story. Two of the younger guys on his team played college ball (Div II I think) and thought they were going to be able to handle the old, broken down pros. One of them even jokingly suggested so to Mike Timlin, of all people. Yes, you can predict what happened. Timlin buzzed him high and inside on the first pitch, which was still around 90 MPH. Then Timlin struck him out on 3 pitches. Guy didn't have a chance.So when I attended Red Sox fantasy camp about ten years ago, the highlight of the week is the camper teams getting to play a 3 inning game against the teams made up of former pros. Most of the pros are in their mid 50s at the youngest, some guys are much older than that (Rick Wise was there at age 68). Most of the campers are in their 30s and 40s, although some were older.
After a week's worth of games a lot of the campers figured they were pretty good ballplayers, and they might be able to give the pros a game; after all, they're all old and broken down. And then Bill Campbell goes out to play....shortstop, of all things, and looks like Ozzie Smith out there. Dave Henderson hit a ball off me that went nearly 500 feet; because our CFer was literally playing at the CF wall it was an out. Oil Can was burnt out as hell and was still snapping off sliders you had zero prayer of hitting.
So no. You are not better than any pro.
That's what I thinking in the Oakland game where he struck out 13 in relief...."he has turned into Pedro as a long reliever"..437 OPS against. It is ridiculous. Pedro in 2000, his best year, was .473.