Derek Jeter: Countdown to Retirement

[glennhoffmania]

Interesting.  I agree with his points.  The thing is though, while Ripken, Brett, Morgan, Yount and Clemente are all considered great players none of them (except maybe when Cal broke the record) got anywhere close to the attention, praise and credit that Jeter gets.  So I agree that he'd still be considered a great player if he was a lifelong Twin.  But the ball washing wouldn't be anything close to what we've had to endure for two decades.

 

[SirPsychoSquints]

Interesting.  I agree with his points.  The thing is though, while Ripken, Brett, Morgan, Yount and Clemente are all considered great players none of them (except maybe when Cal broke the record) got anywhere close to the attention, praise and credit that Jeter gets.  So I agree that he'd still be considered a great player if he was a lifelong Twin.  But the ball washing wouldn't be anything close to what we've had to endure for two decades.

 
Right - the players who have similar amounts of playing time (2,729 games, 12,531 PA) and WAR (72.0) as Jeter are Eddie Murray (3,026/12,817/68.3), Rafael Palmeiro (2,831/12,046/71.6), Paul Molitor (2,683/12,167/75.4) & Robin Yount (2,856/12,249/77.0).  Great & memorable players, but not thought of as inner-circle HOFs.
 
Meanwhile, the point about Larkin & Trammell is understated - each of those players were significantly better than Jeter, but in much less playing time (similar WAR, less games/PA).

 

[WayBackVazquez]

Can't you just look at Craig Biggio to see how Jeter would be considered if he played elsewhere? Through the same number of games, they both have a 115 OPS+, both over 3,000 hits, and Biggio was a much better defender at multiple premium positions.

And they're both inner-circle HOFers, right?

 

[EvilEmpire]

Can't you just look at Craig Biggio to see how Jeter would be considered if he played elsewhere? Through the same number of games, they both have a 115 OPS+, both over 3,000 hits, and Biggio was a much better defender at multiple premium positions.

And they're both inner-circle HOFers, right?

So how do you guys evaluate post-season play? Obviously, Jeter had opportunities that others didn't, but he played in the post-season a lot, and played very well. Over a full season's worth of ABs, when the fans and media were paying attention the most. I think a lot of excessive ball-washing comes from that. The playoffs help make a lot of players bigger-than-life. Look at Ortiz. Without leading Boston to multiple championships with outstanding play, he'd be a slightly better version of Carlos Delgado. But he's not. He's much more widely celebrated, and should be.

Baseball is entertainment. Some of the guys celebrated most are ones with a combination of performance, charisma, and opportunity. Performance is only a part of it.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Jeter is charismatic?

 

[EvilEmpire]

Jeter is charismatic?

Not so much. Ortiz is though. I'd say Jeter is much more about opportunity for post-season play and his performance during it.

 

[WayBackVazquez]

So how do you guys evaluate post-season play?

I dunno. Fairly? Objectively? Minimally? I guess if you want to use it as a some kind of tie-breaker, I'm okay with it. If you told me Jeter is a little bit better than Biggio, and support that statement in part with his above average play in the playoffs, I wouldn't be mad at you.

But it doesn't turn him into Babe Ruth. And Ted Williams doesn't turn into Lou Merloni because he doesnt have shiny playoff numbers.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Not so much. Ortiz is though. I'd say Jeter is much more about opportunity for post-season play and his performance during it.

 
Yeah I agree.  I don't think that post-season play explains all of it though.  I honestly don't know what accounts for the rest.

 

[Hyde Park Factor]

So how do you guys evaluate post-season play? Obviously, Jeter had opportunities that others didn't, but he played in the post-season a lot, and played very well. Over a full season's worth of ABs, when the fans and media were paying attention the most. I think a lot of excessive ball-washing comes from that. The playoffs help make a lot of players bigger-than-life. Look at Ortiz. Without leading Boston to multiple championships with outstanding play, he'd be a slightly better version of Carlos Delgado. But he's not. He's much more widely celebrated, and should be.

Baseball is entertainment. Some of the guys celebrated most are ones with a combination of performance, charisma, and opportunity. Performance is only a part of it.

Jeter was the perfect ambassador not just for baseball, but for the media and networks as well. Jeter hit the big time when media was exploding and everyone had airtime to fill. Why not go with a boy next door, rock solid player who never got in any trouble, etc.? Much like Jackie Robinson was the right guy to break the color barrier even though there were better players than him, Jeter was the right guy to be the media darling when everyone needed one.

 

[Leather]

So Jackie Robinson and Derek Jeter are analogues now.

I think Posnanski is mincing words. Jeter's legacy is entirely impacted by playing for the Yankees. Not only is it the media issue, it's the fact that the Yankees happened to be consistently great for the first 3/4 of Jeter's career. Look at the talent that Jeter's had on those teams, both due to a good farm system and because of the Yanks taking advantage of their massive payroll.

And that's not his fault, bully for Jeter. He certainly made
the most of it. And, obviously, he had no small part in that success. But because Jeter's emergence coincided with the Yanks renewed dominance, and because he's a "role model", and because he's good looking, and because he played SS (regardless of how well he did so), the Press and fans conflated the correlation of Jeter's presence on those winning teams with the notion that his presence caused those teams' successes (or, at least, was a far greater cause than he really was). Faced with a lack of objective basis, believers turned to "intangibles" and "playing the right way" and all that, which only reinforced the correlation/causation fallacy.

 

[WayBackVazquez]

7 for his last 50. So ugly.

 

[mauidano]

I thoroughly enjoy the numbers.  Albeit Jeter is an icon.  But he is far from the greatest of all time, numbers wise. My best friend thinks that Jeter walks on water and I have to deal with his shit for a few more months. I could throw these numbers in his face or that of any other Yankee fan. It is meaningless and hateful to them  Sacrilegious. I hope he continues to hit .140 the rest of the way...please.  There is a God if the MFY's DON'T make the playoffs. Can you imagine the media hype? The internet would explode and so would my head.

 

[SumnerH]

So how do you guys evaluate post-season play? Obviously, Jeter had opportunities that others didn't, but he played in the post-season a lot, and played very well. Over a full season's worth of ABs, when the fans and media were paying attention the most. I think a lot of excessive ball-washing comes from that. The playoffs help make a lot of players bigger-than-life. Look at Ortiz. Without leading Boston to multiple championships with outstanding play, he'd be a slightly better version of Carlos Delgado. But he's not. He's much more widely celebrated, and should be.

Baseball is entertainment. Some of the guys celebrated most are ones with a combination of performance, charisma, and opportunity. Performance is only a part of it.

In which discussion?  If we're talking about greatest of all time type discussions, I value charisma and postseason play very little.  If we're talking about HOF-worthy (meaningless in Jeter's case, as he's an obvious lock) I think they should be taken into consideration--it's a celebration of fame, which is generally more about entertainment value and great moments than it is about accumulating WAR or predicting success or context-neutrality.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

How can a manager of a team that is (in theory) still competing for a postseason position continue to put Jeter in the 2 hole?

Beyond that, how can the CAPTAIN of a team that is (in theory) still competing for a postseason position continue to agree to play and bat in the 2 hole?

Jeter is embarrassing his legacy, and the manager should be risking his job by this decision.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Of course it's not like they have anyone much better on the bench, so there's that, but still, drop him to 7th or 8th in the lineup.

 

[jon abbey]

That's been the case all season long as we've talked about here ad nauseum. Girardi was a role player teammate in the early days of Jeter's career, and it's been quite clear that he's never ever ever going to move him out of the top two of the lineup. And rightly or wrongly (pretty obviously wrongly at this point), it's just not in Jeter's temperament to request a change himself. This team was almost certainly not going to make the playoffs no matter what Jeter's role, but it sure didn't help. 

 

[DanoooME]

I thoroughly enjoy the numbers.  Albeit Jeter is an icon.  But he is far from the greatest of all time, numbers wise. My best friend thinks that Jeter walks on water and I have to deal with his shit for a few more months. I could throw these numbers in his face or that of any other Yankee fan. It is meaningless and hateful to them  Sacrilegious. I hope he continues to hit .140 the rest of the way...please.  There is a God if the MFY's DON'T make the playoffs. Can you imagine the media hype? The internet would explode and so would my head.

 
The blame would never end up in Jeter's lap.  They'll blame it on injuries, CC's shitty performance, the A-Rod suspension.  Anything and anyone but Jeter.

 

[glennhoffmania]

I thoroughly enjoy the numbers.  Albeit Jeter is an icon.  But he is far from the greatest of all time, numbers wise. My best friend thinks that Jeter walks on water and I have to deal with his shit for a few more months. I could throw these numbers in his face or that of any other Yankee fan. It is meaningless and hateful to them  Sacrilegious. I hope he continues to hit .140 the rest of the way...please.  There is a God if the MFY's DON'T make the playoffs. Can you imagine the media hype? The internet would explode and so would my head.

 
You can't reason with those people.  A good friend of mine, who's a very smart guy when it comes to just about anything else, can't wrap his head around how awful Jeter is.  He emailed me a couple of weeks ago with the following, partly in response to me sending him Jeter's batting line, which at the time was .260/.322/.311:
 

As I could have predicted, he came around and upped the batting average and the SLG%. Also, he's gone from 1SB to 8SB. More impressive, he has an 8:1 SB/CS ratio, which is elite. Not like he's a speedster anymore that's going to swipe 20+ bases, but he's going to end up with double digit SBs with hardly and CS. It's clear that he can still run the bases at the MLB level.
 

 
Here's my response, with the actual facts:
 

His current line is .271/.321/.326.  So his OBP hasn't moved and his SLG has gone up a whopping .015.  In other words, he's no better now than he was when I wrote the original email.  The only difference is that he's walking less and singling more.
 

 
Then I get this objective analysis:
 

And despite the .265BA, it's not crazy to think that Jeter in the home stretch - the final month of his career, with all the adrenaline that brings, that Jeter could hit .400 in the final month. This is still a career .310 hitter who hit .316 two years ago.
 

 

[Leather]

And despite my aunt having 0 testicles for the first 50 years of her life, it's not unreasonable to think that menopause, with all the hormones that it brings, will give her the push she needs to grow two balls and become my uncle.

 

[TheYaz67]

Now at a .301 OBP, and .302 SLG.
 
Would be a "shame" if those both ended up in the two hundreds at season's end - he needs a kick at the end, like his 5 for 5 day when he got his 3,000th hit....

 

[WayBackVazquez]

.247/.302/.296 over his last 162 games.

 

[RedOctober3829]

.247/.302/.296 over his last 162 games.

0 for his last 20.  Lowest OBP in MLB since 8/1.

 

[Rough Carrigan]

Jeter was the perfect ambassador not just for baseball, but for the media and networks as well. Jeter hit the big time when media was exploding and everyone had airtime to fill. Why not go with a boy next door, rock solid player who never got in any trouble, etc.? Much like Jackie Robinson was the right guy to break the color barrier even though there were better players than him, Jeter was the right guy to be the media darling when everyone needed one.

Jeter was the perfect ambassador for baseball if you wanted an absolute cipher. 
 
Did he ever utter a single memorable phrase in 18 years of being focused on by the media?  Did he do anything charitably to be considered a "perfect ambassador"?  He's got the standard, go through the motions charitable foundation.  We ain't talking Roberto Clemente here.  He had a sometimes envied sometimes mocked private life. 
 
Jeter was a very good player in New York while his team was always in contention for a long stretch.  Thus begins and ends his qualifications for ambassadorship.

 

[Sampo Gida]

That's been the case all season long as we've talked about here ad nauseum. Girardi was a role player teammate in the early days of Jeter's career, and it's been quite clear that he's never ever ever going to move him out of the top two of the lineup. And rightly or wrongly (pretty obviously wrongly at this point), it's just not in Jeter's temperament to request a change himself. This team was almost certainly not going to make the playoffs no matter what Jeter's role, but it sure didn't help. 

 
Well, they are effectively 4 games out in the loss column (assuming KC loses the suspended game) and Jeters -3 WPA is 150/151 lowest in MLB among qualified hitters which has not helped, nor has his -11 DRS and negative WAR.   For most of the season Jeter was the rally killer breaking up any continuity at the top of the order.   Dont think anyone can say with any certainty where the Yankees would be without Jeter this year, or at least if he was at the bottom of the order, but nobody can deny his 427 OPS since August 3rd has been a big anchor down the stretch.
 
I can't ever remember a Yankee great having such an awful last season.  Gehrigs was pretty awful but lasted only a couple of weeks.  They either got traded or decided to not embarrass themselves by retiring.  Mantle was still the best hitter on his team when he hung them up, but it was not much of a team.  Jete probably should have retired in February since what prompted him to announce at that time was probably knowledge he would not be able to perform anymore and wanted to announce first rather than be forced out (can you imagine if he had not already announced this year)
 
None of this is meant to take away from a great career, but it lasted 1 year too long

 

[WayBackVazquez]

.250/.298/.298. Amazing. 0 for his last 24. Longest hitless streak of his career?

 

[Madmartigan]

He went 0-32 in 2004, prompting the home fans to boo him. That's right, Yankees fans actually booed Derek Jeter.

 

[glennhoffmania]

It's incredible that while trying to make the playoffs they still won't sit him or move him down despite how awful he is.  He has a .328 OPS in Sep.

 

[Plantiers Wart]

It's incredible that he doesn't ask to move himself down in the order - Not the first time his selfishness as an intangible costs the Yankees games. 

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

No mention (not even in the game thread!) that Captain Jetes sat out tonight's game?  Ryan started at SS (and got a hit!), and Drew took over after Headley was ejected.
 
Not that it helped, but I'm surprised to see him sit out

 

[jon abbey]

He often sits out a game in series that are on turf, even when he's not playing like the worst player in baseball. I'm sure he'll be right back to sucking in the #2 spot and SS tonight, TWO MORE WEEKS. 

 

[JimD]

I do feel sorry for Yankees fans in having to see one of their heroes go out in this fashion.  I hope that David Ortiz is true to his word and hangs it up before subjecting Sox fans to this type of sad spectacle.

 

[joyofsox]

He went 0-32 in 2004, prompting the home fans to boo him. That's right, Yankees fans actually booed Derek Jeter.

 

 

[NYCSox]

I was at that game. Pedro pitched a gem and the booing, while not overwhleming, was certainly noticeable.
 
And this after their lucky ass win in the ALCS. Maybe they were still mad at Joe for letting Sea Bass beat Jeff Weaver in G4 of the WS.

 

[Snoop Soxy Dogg]

I do feel sorry for Yankees fans in having to see one of their heroes go out in this fashion.  I hope that David Ortiz is true to his word and hangs it up before subjecting Sox fans to this type of sad spectacle.

 
Not to derail the thread, but..There is no way Ortiz goes out on top. He's going to keep asking for his contract (and getting it), then one year he'll fall off, refuse to admit it and perhaps even bitch a little about it. I get the sense he'll only hang up when it's painfully obvious to himself that he can't hit any more. 
 
We'll still love him though. Sounds a little bit like the Jeter situation actually, minus the excrutiating retirement lovefest and plus the likely whinefest.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Joe Maddon ‏@RaysJoeMaddon 7m
We're honoring Derek Jeter here tonight. To me he is the 1st unanimous Hall of Famer. I love that he respects the 90-feet from home to 1B.
 

So Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Jimmy Foxx, etc. aren't worthy of being unanimous Hall of Famers, but Derek Jeter is?  Why Joe?  Because he "respects" the 1st base line?  This is comedic gold right here.  From one douche to another douche we salute you Derek!!

 

[NYCSox]

What the hell does that even mean? Is this another empty platitude to running full speed to first no matter what?

 

[glennhoffmania]

So Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Jimmy Foxx, etc. aren't worthy of being unanimous Hall of Famers, but Derek Jeter is?  Why Joe?  Because he "respects" the 1st base line?  This is comedic gold right here.  From one douche to another douche we salute you Derek!!

 
Don't be so obtuse.  Didn't you know that no one else in the history of MLB has ever run as hard to 1B on every play as Jeter? 

 

[terrynever]

So Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Jimmy Foxx, etc. aren't worthy of being unanimous Hall of Famers, but Derek Jeter is?  Why Joe?  Because he "respects" the 1st base line?  This is comedic gold right here.  From one douche to another douche we salute you Derek!!

I don't read those two sentences as a connected thought. Maddon thinks Jeter will be a unanimous HOF pick ... And he loves the fact that Jeter has always run hard down the line. It's Twitter, not a writer 's forum.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Ok but how can anyone say with a straight face that of all the players in MLB history he's the first who deserves to be a unanimous first ballot HOFer? 

 

[RedOctober3829]

I don't read those two sentences as a connected thought. Maddon thinks Jeter will be a unanimous HOF pick ... And he loves the fact that Jeter has always run hard down the line. It's Twitter, not a writer 's forum.

Thinking that Jeter is the player who deserves the first unanimous HOFer is outright insane.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Ok but how can anyone say with a straight face that of all the players in MLB history he's the first who deserves to be a unanimous first ballot HOFer? 

Of the players mentioned as why not first ballot, Foxx had alleged drinking problems, Williams fought with reporters and Ruth, what can you say about his off field antics (everything). Not that any of the above should have made those three anything but unanimous. Same with Mays, Aaron, Musial and several others. Nowadays, with the voting more public, no writer probably wants to be the one to leave Jeter off. So, he could get 100%. Big deal, to date, the highest percentage was for Tom Seaver, who stands as 7th all time in BREF WAR for pitchers. 

 

[terrynever]

Thinking that Jeter is the player who deserves the first unanimous HOFer is outright insane.

It's more complicated than Jeter being the first one ever to get all the votes. Ruth and other members of the first class were not unanimous because the voters were picking from the previous 50 years ... And they were a very biased, stubborn group of arrogant scribes. Then it became a point of honor among voters that players like DiMaggio, Musial and Williams would not be unanimous, if only because nobody ever got all the votes. I think you know where this is going. Steroids tarnished the game. The issue has split voters and HOF members. Is the timing right for a unanimous choice? Jeter won't be eligible for five years. Is there someone coming due who might have won all the votes? Greg Maddux might have qualified for that honor.

Based on the philosophical dispute about Jeter, I'm pretty certain there are a few voters who will bypass him, just to make their own point. Maybe they will be humiliated by the moral majority, called out for not picking Jeter, but it's their opinion. Their right.

 

[NYCSox]

It's more complicated than Jeter being the first one ever to get all the votes. Ruth and other members of the first class were not unanimous because the voters were picking from the previous 50 years ... And they were a very biased, stubborn group of arrogant scribes. Then it became a point of honor among voters that players like DiMaggio, Musial and Williams would not be unanimous, if only because nobody ever got all the votes. I think you know where this is going. Steroids tarnished the game. The issue has split voters and HOF members. Is the timing right for a unanimous choice? Jeter won't be eligible for five years. Is there someone coming due who might have won all the votes? Greg Maddux might have qualified for that honor.

Based on the philosophical dispute about Jeter, I'm pretty certain there are a few voters who will bypass him, just to make their own point. Maybe they will be humiliated by the moral majority, called out for not picking Jeter, but it's their opinion. Their right.

 
They "were" a biased, stubborn group of arrogant scribes? As if that's changed.

 

[terrynever]

They "were" a biased, stubborn group of arrogant scribes? As if that's changed.

Well, here is the 2013 voter's list. And their votes for that year. They're not all scribes. Arrogant might be the wrong road. Headstrong works for me. Some voters, like Joe Posnanski, respect the ballot and vote for the maximum 10 players. Others vote for as few as one.

http://bbwaa.com/13-hof-ballots/

 

[Average Reds]

Well, here is the 2013 voter's list. And their votes for that year. They're not all scribes. Arrogant might be the wrong road. Headstrong works for me. Some voters, like Joe Posnanski, respect the ballot and vote for the maximum 10 players. Others vote for as few as one.

http://bbwaa.com/13-hof-ballots/

 
That's not the 2013 voter list.  It's just the list of 125 voters (out of 569 ballots received) who were willing to make their vote public. 

 

[TheYaz67]

Yeah, the ballots being private is why Jeter will not get 100% - no public shaming is possible.
 
That and I am counting on at least one Boston sports writer to do the right thing and stick it in George King's eye.  Can't wait for King's outraged column if he comes up just short of 100%....

 

[SumnerH]

Well, here is the 2013 voter's list. And their votes for that year. They're not all scribes. Arrogant might be the wrong road. Headstrong works for me. Some voters, like Joe Posnanski, respect the ballot and vote for the maximum 10 players. Others vote for as few as one.

http://bbwaa.com/13-hof-ballots/

 
You say that as though small hall voters are inherently wrong.

 

[terrynever]

You say that as though small hall voters are inherently wrong.

No. I think they are headstrong but I respect their right to vote however they please.

 

[SumnerH]

No. I think they are headstrong but I respect their right to vote however they please.

 
I draw a major distinction between someone who doesn't vote for Maddux because nobody should be unanimous (which is, IMO, actually stupid; you vote based on whether someone should be in the hall or not, you don't play games to manipulate the count) and someone who thinks the Hall should be about half the size that it is now and so doesn't vote for 10 players every year.  The latter may be idiosyncratic, but I don't think it's fair to say it doesn't "respect the ballot".

 

[terrynever]

I draw a major distinction between someone who doesn't vote for Maddux because nobody should be unanimous (which is, IMO, actually stupid; you vote based on whether someone should be in the hall or not, you don't play games to manipulate the count) and someone who thinks the Hall should be about half the size that it is now and so doesn't vote for 10 players every year.  The latter may be idiosyncratic, but I don't think it's fair to say it doesn't "respect the ballot".

I agree with this. Good point. Now back to football season.

 

[DukeSox]

He often sits out a game in series that are on turf, even when he's not playing like the worst player in baseball. I'm sure he'll be right back to sucking in the #2 spot and SS tonight, TWO MORE WEEKS. 

 
What are they saving him for?