Derrick White, On-Off wizard
- Thread starter benhogan
- Start date
It's also the fact that there are several other deserving guards who are really good
Haliburton, Dame, Maxey, Brunson, Mitchell, Jrue, Trae...
You mean the A C Green trophy? It hasn’t been awarded recently because most players won’t admit to the celibacy requirement.
Moving Marcus and giving the keys to DW was unquestionably a game changer. He’s morphing into Joe Dumars circa 1990.
Still very very doubtful. The east is stacked with guards who are putting up numbers
I don't think he'll make it, but I do think he's a better/more valuable player than some of those guys.
I hope he doesn't get it, so we're more likely to be able to sign him to a reasonable, upper middle class extension. He's going to be on $19.5 next year and I'm hoping to keep him beyond that for not much more.
Same reason I was rooting against the Jaylen All-NBA campaign last year. Which, frankly, he didn't deserve in the end. I bet he'd have taken a 30% max deal instead of the 35% one, if he wasn't eligible for the latter.
Same reason I was rooting against the Jaylen All-NBA campaign last year. Which, frankly, he didn't deserve in the end. I bet he'd have taken a 30% max deal instead of the 35% one, if he wasn't eligible for the latter.
You're right, it's a popularity contest and ESPN leaving him off their TOP100 NBA players list tells you everything you need to know about NBA media intelligentsia
Derrick has greater pursuits ahead & that week off will help since Joe will eventually have to start playing him 38-40mpg in games that matter
#White4President
Explain why Jaylen Brown didn’t deserve All-NBA last season. He had a really strong year and the award itself is for season’s accomplishments, not pedigree players that play in only half the team’s games.
And right now, we should be happy Jaylen is here rather than Memphis or LA or New York, which could have been a possibility had he not been eligible for the supermax.
Aren't Bruce Brown and Buddy Hield getting more than that? White is closing in on max territory.
Show me your favorite advanced value metric and where Jaylen ranks in it among forwards. I'm willing to bet it's not top-6 in the league, which is what All-NBA is supposed to capture.
I don't think he was very far off from an All-NBA grade season, but I think it was a weird combination of circumstances that led writers to put him top-6 (indeed, top-4) last year. "Very strong season" isn't the standard, this is a stack-ranking thing.
All NBA was position less last season, which indeed helped. And which players that didn’t make it should have been named instead? And voters did weigh games played last season, as they were encouraged to do so by the league. There is now a minimum games played requirement.
Bruce Brown got 2/45, but the only reason that his AAV is that high is because it's such a short term deal. It wasn't that long ago but I seem to remember most being surprised by how much he got, tempered by the length of the contract. Hield basically got a slightly bigger deal than White (4/86 vs 4/73), and he'll be a FA this summer. It will be instructive to see what he gets, but I think the only way we get White back at less than $30M annually is if he grants a pretty sweet discount.
I think this is a case where you need to show your work and tell us who should have made it to the team instead of him. I would bet that when you actually do that exercise, you will come to the conclusion that he was definitely worthy of a spot last year.
I believe that the first two "Honorable Mentions" were Julius Randle and Lauri Markkanen if that helps
I don't have the time or energy to look back but wasn't it pretty much agreed upon by everyone here that Jaylen was going to get an All-NBA spot? There was the back and forth during the year but by the end of it I recall the only question being whether he'd make 2nd or 3rd Team.
Yes, it was.
Markkanen basically sat out the last two-three weeks of the season and the Jazz nose dived. I believe Randle had a similar swoon around that time. I remember that by the end it was pretty universally accepted he was getting one of those spots
Julius Randle made the third team last year. AD and Markkanen were the next two in line.
I think current Boston Celtic Kristaps Porzingis should have made the third team over Randle. However, I don't think it is correct that all-NBA was positionless last year. I think last year it was still 2 guards, 2 forwards, 1 center. hence why Jokic made 2nd team and not first
I was thinking DJ as a comp as well (at least Celtic era DJ). Jrue is an even better comp to DJ, mainly due to their similar physicality/strength.
When it was announced that Boston traded for White, I thought Dejounte Murray was the better player, but my opinion has dramatically shifted since.
Many Spurs fans' message boards, had the same line on the day of the trade:
"Nobody, in the league, realizes how good this guy is, Celtic fans will love him".
White/Murray played several seasons together with the same teammates. DW was consistently better in regards to +/- & On-Off.
Since the trade, White has lept each season, while DM has flatlined. Nice Guy Brad got his man.
If Dujounte Murray can make an All-Star team, Derrick White has an outside shot with his exceptionally good adv metrics.
After the 10 starters, the 30 NBA coaches select the 14 All-Star reserves, voting for two guards, three frontcourt players and two players at any position in their respective conferences. White would need the Celtics to have an NBA best record + a few EC guards to be injured, but he doesn't have to win a popularity contest among media nitwits.
Many Spurs fans' message boards, had the same line on the day of the trade:
"Nobody, in the league, realizes how good this guy is, Celtic fans will love him".
White/Murray played several seasons together with the same teammates. DW was consistently better in regards to +/- & On-Off.
Since the trade, White has lept each season, while DM has flatlined. Nice Guy Brad got his man.
If Dujounte Murray can make an All-Star team, Derrick White has an outside shot with his exceptionally good adv metrics.
After the 10 starters, the 30 NBA coaches select the 14 All-Star reserves, voting for two guards, three frontcourt players and two players at any position in their respective conferences. White would need the Celtics to have an NBA best record + a few EC guards to be injured, but he doesn't have to win a popularity contest among media nitwits.
With JJ's podcast and social media presence reaching out to the large majority on NBA people voting on the team....this tweet is freakin huge in getting him on the team.
Agree. I wasn't taking this campaign seriously, but it might actually happen now.
The competition is probably too stiff, but JJ will have fun roasting/trolling his colleagues at ESPN.
East Guards:
Tyrese Halliburton
Dame Lillard
Donovan Mitchell
Tyrese Maxey
Jalen Brunson
Trae Young
LaMelo Ball
East Guards:
Tyrese Halliburton
Dame Lillard
Donovan Mitchell
Tyrese Maxey
Jalen Brunson
Trae Young
LaMelo Ball
I haven't looked hard at who he's competing against but he is certainly playing as though he is deserving. Quite the meteoric rise from being a multi-year D-2 player.
Edit: He's def ahead of Ball with him being on such a crappy team but that is some tough comp.
Not that all-star voters spend a lot of time thinking about “Vorps and Schnorps” but EPM currently has the top 15 players as
1. Embiid
2. SGA
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. LeBron
6. Luka
7. Chet
8. Derrick White
9. AD
10. Haliburton
11. Trae
12. Kawhi
13. Steph
14. Booker
15. KD
That’s some pretty good company, Mr. White.
1. Embiid
2. SGA
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. LeBron
6. Luka
7. Chet
8. Derrick White
9. AD
10. Haliburton
11. Trae
12. Kawhi
13. Steph
14. Booker
15. KD
That’s some pretty good company, Mr. White.
And LaMelo has missed the last 11 games and still has no set return date from his ankle injury.
The same metric has Jayson Tatum behind Goga Bitadze, Scottie Barnes and Trae Young. Which, to be fair, expresses the pitfalls of looking at only one metric.
White ranks 13th in overall win shares and 11th in win shares per 48 minutes. He ranks ninth in EPM (Estimated Plus-Minus) and 14th in VORP (Value Over Replacement Player). The Celtics have outscored opponents by 13.2 points per 100 possessions with White on the court compared to 2.7 points per 100 possessions with him on the bench. Heck, his on/off numbers look like Tatum’s used to look.
White can play on the ball or off the ball. In pick-and-rolls, he can serve as the screener or the ball handler. He can fill any role the Celtics need in any given lineup, with or without Tatum. And when the team is shorthanded, White has been able to lift his production without sacrificing any of his efficiency. He has scored 33.1 points per 100 possessions with Tatum on the bench, up from 21.7 points per 100 possessions with Tatum on the court, according to PBP Stats.
https://theathletic.com/5155775/2023/12/22/jayson-tatum-celtics-boston-bench/
White can play on the ball or off the ball. In pick-and-rolls, he can serve as the screener or the ball handler. He can fill any role the Celtics need in any given lineup, with or without Tatum. And when the team is shorthanded, White has been able to lift his production without sacrificing any of his efficiency. He has scored 33.1 points per 100 possessions with Tatum on the bench, up from 21.7 points per 100 possessions with Tatum on the court, according to PBP Stats.
https://theathletic.com/5155775/2023/12/22/jayson-tatum-celtics-boston-bench/
I know it is a popularity contest and not a DARKO contest but....assuming that Lillard and Mitchell are shoe ins and that LaMelo is out due to injury it looks like White is right in the mix.
I think there can be up to 6 guards per conference to make the team. It doesn't seem outlandish that DW could be one of them.
Trae Young is the best of those guards and Haliburton the worst? I would have said the opposite.
My read is Trae Young is not the best. It looks to me like he has the highest variance on a game by game basis. If I were choosing who to add to my roster I would want a guard that more consistently performed at a high level.
Agree with you that if you fit a curve to the data, Haliburton would appear to be the lowest performing of the bunch. I'm not sure why that is but in a thread about Derrick White I think the data indicates that he is among the best in the conference.
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I'm suspicious of any black box data that tells me Trae Young is better than Haliburton. If it told me Derrick White belonged on the pantheon of gods I'd believe that though.
I think it is completely reasonable to be suspicious. It's funny. I am highly suspicious of black box statistics like ESPN's QBR and never really even pay attention to it as a result.
I will readily admit that I like DARKO largely because it was developed by a member here. Also I get a kick out of the Celtics references in the What is DARKO explanation:
https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/
Anyway, I am a fan of just about any pretty chart that shows DW is among the best guards in the league.
And kudos to @DavidTai - not only is White better than Shammgod he is also way ahead of Dan Godfread. If DW continues his ascension he may even eclipse Jesus Shuttlesworth.
White and Holiday have a friendly bet going on about having the most blocks for a guard this season. How's that going?
1. Scottie Barnes, 1016 mins played, 40 blocks
2. Derrick White, 810, 31
3. Jrue Holiday, 891, 22
4. Alex Caruso, 587, 20
4. James Harden, 803, 20
6. Nickeil Alexander-Walker, 647, 18
Pretty well!
Edit: typo
1. Scottie Barnes, 1016 mins played, 40 blocks
2. Derrick White, 810, 31
3. Jrue Holiday, 891, 22
4. Alex Caruso, 587, 20
4. James Harden, 803, 20
6. Nickeil Alexander-Walker, 647, 18
Pretty well!
Edit: typo
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