#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[Kull]

 
That said, I am willing to change my mind if you can present evidence to the contrary.  How have the Patriots been harmed here beyond a few hurt feelings?

 
Bill Belichick and Brady (and who knows how many others) spent valuable game prep time on deflated footballs instead of the Seahawks. Maybe that extra week would have been used to game plan contingencies like "what happens if the Seahawks start lobbing balls to Chamberlain" so it doesn't take 3 quarters to solve that problem. Sure they won, but it was a close thing and the lost days could have made a difference.

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

 
But if you think that RoboKraft is going to go all batshit on the NFL and start slaying people because the league doesn't truly enforce a chain of custody rule for its game-balls and it allowed the Pats to be embarrassed, you are fooling yourself.  He got another trophy and he gets the last laugh. 
 
This story simply isn't that big of a deal beyond these parts and it will be really surprising if it results in the loss of any jobs beyond the guy who was stealing charity balls to sell on eBay.    

 
Totally disagree with this.  When Kraft gave his speech after landing in Arizona, he was livid.  He did not attend Goodell's press conference, and he snubbed Goodell when he presented Kraft with the trophy.
 
It's not hard to figure out why.  Kraft is one of the leaders of the owners, and, by all accounts, is widely respected.  When Spygate happened, he took his medicine, and chastised BB privately.  During the last CBA negotiation, he played a key role in getting an agreement--while his wife was on her deathbed.  
 
And, most importantly, when Goodell was being pilloried over the Ray Rice -, Kraft stuck out his neck for him on national television.
 
What did Kraft get in return?  He got to watch his team and its legacy get dragged through the mud by the likes of Bob Kravitz during what should have been a time of celebration. And Goodell did nothing while the Pats twisted in the wind.  The legacy thing may seem trite when fans get worked up about it--but Kraft is not a fan.  The team is an extension of him, his family, and his personal legacy.  Of course he's ripshit.

 

[DJnVa]

 That said, I am willing to change my mind if you can present evidence to the contrary.  How have the Patriots been harmed here beyond a few hurt feelings?

 
This is sports, so everything is relatively unimportant, but within that universe, a player's legacy is very important.
 
If you knew you were 100% innocent, would it bother you if a vast majority of your former coworkers/people in the same field as you think you cheated your way to every promotion/raise you ever got?

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Just because an entity is doing well economically, doesn't mean that there hasn't been economic damage. Without recent accusations, perhaps some agnostic football fans become fans of the Patriots because of Butler's hero play and Brady's dreamy eyes. Has there been economic damage? I would say undoubtably, yes. How much is it, and is it significant? I don't know. But it's worse than if untruths WEREN'T being leaked by someone with inside knowledge.

Lets say there is economic damage. How does it manifest itself?

The truth is that this is and always has been a tempest in a teapot. If the Pats lost marginal fans its likely they simply rooted for Seattle. The NFL, of which the Kraft family is a part owner, still got eyeballs. I truly doubt there was any damage to the Patriots or the NFL outside of some hurt feelings in Foxboro. And I would argue that those wounds are plenty salved by another championship.

Finally, I have a different perspective than many of you because I live 3,000 miles from Boston. This story doesn't even rate in the Bay Area or in the other non-north east cities that I do business with. Sports fans outside of New England have moved on to realizing that the NBA is pretty exciting this season, March madness is around the corner and pitchers & catchers are set to arrive.
This threads continued life simply tells me that you guys desperately need spring weather ASAP.

Finally, I will be back to say I was wrong if Kraft gets an apology or Kensil's scalp. But I doubt either happens.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

$20 to the jimmy fund from you, if either happens, and $20 from me if neither happens by, say, July?

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

$20 to the jimmy fund from you, if either happens, and $20 from me if neither happens by, say, July?

Done

 

[E5 Yaz]

So, if Kensil "retires," you both pay?

 

[Van Everyman]

I'm still not totally clear why Kensil would be leaking that he was running a half-assed sting operation to Mike Florio. Or why what he did to reinflate the balls at halftime was so awful. Or why he'd leak a story about the Patriots locker room attendant when it would take about two minutes for someone to point the finger back at the NFL.

A bunch of things aren't really adding up.

 

[Devizier]

I'm still not totally clear why Kensil would be leaking that he was running a half-assed sting operation to Mike Florio. Or why what he did to reinflate the balls at halftime was so awful. Or why he'd leak a story about the Patriots locker room attendant when it would take about two minutes for someone to point the finger back at the NFL.

A bunch of things aren't really adding up.

 
My guess is many of the leaks are hearsay. These guys have families, associates, etc. and probably aren't conditioned to keep their mouths shut.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

Count me among those who want desperately for this quasi-sting story to be true, with Kensil right smack dab in the middle of it, but count me, too, among those wondering why Kensil would then REINFLATE the balls at halftime, as opposed to preserving them as the "gotcha red-handed" exhibit A, and replacing them with some of the Patriots backup balls. Wouldn't that be the way it would go? I know, I know, they're also idiots, but that REALLY doesn't add up, even bearing idiocy in mind. Am I getting that wrong, what am I missing?

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

So, if Kensil "retires," you both pay?

 
I think we'd call that a push, though I'd be OK with both of us contributing too.  The spirit of the old "put your money where your mouth is" thread was just to generate wagers on SoSH that created money for the jimmy fund.
 

 
Totally disagree with this.  When Kraft gave his speech after landing in Arizona, he was livid.  He did not attend Goodell's press conference, and he snubbed Goodell when he presented Kraft with the trophy.
 
It's not hard to figure out why.  Kraft is one of the leaders of the owners, and, by all accounts, is widely respected.  When Spygate happened, he took his medicine, and chastised BB privately.  During the last CBA negotiation, he played a key role in getting an agreement--while his wife was on her deathbed.  
 
And, most importantly, when Goodell was being pilloried over the Ray Rice -, Kraft stuck out his neck for him on national television.
 
What did Kraft get in return?  He got to watch his team and its legacy get dragged through the mud by the likes of Bob Kravitz during what should have been a time of celebration. And Goodell did nothing while the Pats twisted in the wind.  The legacy thing may seem trite when fans get worked up about it--but Kraft is not a fan.  The team is an extension of him, his family, and his personal legacy.  Of course he's ripshit.

 
Well said.  It makes me think of Kraft's words that night, spoken on the postgame show:
 
"You want to try to put your organization in the best position to be able to win.  You want to give them the facilities, you want to give your support - look, we had... a lot of things going on with our team, and that's why I decided to speak out, you know, when we came down here.  I don't know whether you people approve or don't approve, but I just thought it was the right thing for me to do, to show everybody that our team was together, and that we're not going to allow anyone to divide the house."
 
I think he fully intends to strike down with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy his brothers.  That was as worked up as you'll ever see Kraft get.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

I'm still not totally clear why Kensil would be leaking that he was running a half-assed sting operation to Mike Florio. Or why what he did to reinflate the balls at halftime was so awful. Or why he'd leak a story about the Patriots locker room attendant when it would take about two minutes for someone to point the finger back at the NFL.

A bunch of things aren't really adding up.

 
Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

At least this time some money will actually make it to the intended charity.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Count me among those who want desperately for this quasi-sting story to be true, with Kensil right smack dab in the middle of it, but count me, too, among those wondering why Kensil would then REINFLATE the balls at halftime, as opposed to preserving them as the "gotcha red-handed" exhibit A, and replacing them with some of the Patriots backup balls. Wouldn't that be the way it would go? I know, I know, they're also idiots, but that REALLY doesn't add up, even bearing idiocy in mind. Am I getting that wrong, what am I missing?

 
He shouldn't have been on the sidelines in the first place. It's pretty clear that smart thinking isn't his strength.
 
Also he was likely involved on the Colts sideline with the Jackson INT ball, so he may have thought he had "gotcha" on that.
 
Either way he's done in the league.

 

[simplyeric]

 
Well we can agree to disagree.  
 
At the end of the day Kraft is part a of a large, multi-billion dollar business.  While he may (or may not) want to have Kensil's head, businesses with multiple, large stakeholders don't typically allow a unilateral firing of an employee.  
 
The fact is, we don't even know if Kraft blames Kensil or Goodell or some other actors.  We also don't know what sort of true power Kraft wields and how many other owners support him.  And finally, we don't know what else is going on behind the scenes.   It may well be that it is in the NFL's best interest to make this go away or lightly punish the Patriots and that Kraft accepts is as part of a much larger or different negotiation that has zero to do with footballs or how the public perceives the Patriots.  
 
But if you think that RoboKraft is going to go all batshit on the NFL and start slaying people because the league doesn't truly enforce a chain of custody rule for its game-balls and it allowed the Pats to be embarrassed, you are fooling yourself.  He got another trophy and he gets the last laugh. 
 
This story simply isn't that big of a deal beyond these parts and it will be really surprising if it results in the loss of any jobs beyond the guy who was stealing charity balls to sell on eBay.    

But he /barely/ got the trophy and I think he feels that the pre super bowl bullshit seriously affected his team's chances of winning. Apart from his emotional investment in the team (which seems substantial) his economic investment is huge. If he thinks that Kensil affected (or was attempting to affect) the value of the Patriots (as opposed to the NFL) then he has a real argument for needing there to be a head on a stick.

 

[Van Everyman]

FWIW, Bill Nye is on Bill Maher right now. Probably unlikely anyone brings up Ballghazi but there's a chance I suppose.

 

[simplyeric]

Count me among those who want desperately for this quasi-sting story to be true, with Kensil right smack dab in the middle of it, but count me, too, among those wondering why Kensil would then REINFLATE the balls at halftime, as opposed to preserving them as the "gotcha red-handed" exhibit A, and replacing them with some of the Patriots backup balls. Wouldn't that be the way it would go? I know, I know, they're also idiots, but that REALLY doesn't add up, even bearing idiocy in mind. Am I getting that wrong, what am I missing?

Maybe he was less interested in the 'sting' at the time, and was more hoping that reinflating the balls would make the Patriots lose.

The fact that the Patriots went into f-you mode then made them so crazy angry that they started leaking rumors, in spite of how stupid that was.

 

[E5 Yaz]

At this stage (and God knows it can change by the time I finish typing this), I think we're headed for a ending where the Wells report states (in very carefully crafted prose) something to the tune of "No evidence can be found that the Patriots did anything against NFL rules." As with all rulings that try to have it both ways, this will satisfy no one.
 
Many will just conclude that the Patriots "got away with it," because the NFL botched both the protocols and the aftermath. Many will say that it's not Kraft's wanted "apology," and leaves open the question as to whether NE actually did do anything.
 
Until the McNally fiasco, I thought we were headed to a showdown between Kraft and Goodell. I don't think so anymore. The Pats will escape "penalty," but the wording of the ruling will be open-ended.
 
As many, here and the media have said and are now saying, no decision will have any impact because no minds can be changed about the perception of the Patriots. Anyone who still thinks that's possible, or necessary, should go outside more often.
 
Kensil will go away quietly in August.
 
*subject to change

 

[judyb]

Count me among those who want desperately for this quasi-sting story to be true, with Kensil right smack dab in the middle of it, but count me, too, among those wondering why Kensil would then REINFLATE the balls at halftime, as opposed to preserving them as the "gotcha red-handed" exhibit A, and replacing them with some of the Patriots backup balls. Wouldn't that be the way it would go? I know, I know, they're also idiots, but that REALLY doesn't add up, even bearing idiocy in mind. Am I getting that wrong, what am I missing?

Why does anyone destroy evidence? Because they think it will show what they don't want it to show.

 

[djbayko]

Maybe he was less interested in the 'sting' at the time, and was more hoping that reinflating the balls would make the Patriots lose.

Then he'd have to be more stupid than any of us had even imagined.

 

[dcmissle]

Midwesterners are genuinely nice. So nice their fans comically irritate easterners -- e.g. Saint Louis, 2004 and 2007.

How a relatively small place like Indy can contain two monumental assholes, Doyle and Kravitz, is beyond me. Boston has only three (Mazz does not count; he is inconsequential).

In all events, this will be the back pedaling narrative: 1. Our rush to judgment was legit in light of 2007. 2. It may not have been a rush because anything exculpatory is not worthy of belief.

 

[simplyeric]

Then he'd have to be more stupid than any of us had even imagined.

And that somehow negates the theory? Look as these people.

 

[Ed Hillel]

At this stage (and God knows it can change by the time I finish typing this), I think we're headed for a ending where the Wells report states (in very carefully crafted prose) something to the tune of "No evidence can be found that the Patriots did anything against NFL rules." As with all rulings that try to have it both ways, this will satisfy no one.

I think it will go beyond that and suggest that weather/NFL error in measuring was the most likely explanation. I also think Kensil will also come off looking really bad, particularly if the report highlights his past with the Jets.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

My hope is that Kensil, as we believe, is in fact the man behind most of the leaks. And that this pisses off the investigators enough (because it makes them look bad too) that it truly motivates them to upturn every stone when looking into his relation to this entire thing.

 

[Ed Hillel]

My hope is that Kensil, as we believe, is in fact the man behind most of the leaks. And that this pisses off the investigators enough (because it makes them look bad too) that it truly motivates them to upturn every stone when looking into his relation to this entire thing.

Not only that, but it will piss off the reporters he made look stupid. That would be helpful.

 

[joe dokes]

Someone upthread mentioned Kraft's respect throughout the league, the way he stuck up for Goodell, his role in the CBA, etc. I dont know whether its enough to carry the day in terms of influence, but owners like Jerry Jones (understands the value of the "brand" vs. "the Shield") would be in his corner. (query who is "like Jerry Jones," though).
 
Kraft's remarks before and after the SB suggest to me that he is personally pissed at Goodell for disloyalty (for lack of a better word).  I dont know how many other owners he can line up if Goodell reacts to the Wells report with his usual intellectually shallow dick-swinging.  Not to fire him, but to shit on him; to do to Goodell's public rep what someone in Goodells office did to Kraft's team's reputation.  While DeJesus might be right about "no real economic impact,"  that works both ways.  If 5 or 6 owners just kept shitting on Goodell, there would be no "cost" -- he wouldnt get fired --  but a vanity-whore like Goodell would cry into his pillow every night. The usual suspect owners like davis might not pile on because they need moving help, or maybe they will because teh league will vow to fight them on it. Daily anonymous leaks from "team sources" about Goodell's incompetence. There have to be *some* reporters willing to do that.
 
 
I think the NFL goes with the "kensil leaves on the Friday before memorial day weekend" approach.

 

[Archer1979]

I don't know how anyone can really claim no real economic impact especially since it's near impossible to quantify it.  Merchandise sales, picking up fans outside of the region, and any other thing that you can think of for a franchise that is really successful even though its not local.  I see a lot of Steelers and Cowboys gear worn by folks that started watching football when they were kids and those franchises were dominant.  There may be some lost opportunity because kids want to root against a team of cheaters as opposed to to rooting for a legitimately great franchise.  We're sitting in the here and now basking in the glory of this win, but I'm going to bet that years from now we'll still be talking about how special this era really is, while the detractors will fell obligated to taint it with BS like SpyGate and Ballghazi,  It may be just talk to us, but I can't see how it doesn't translate to lost dollars for the Patriot brand.  Remember, Kraft is a businessman first.  From the very beginning, he referred to the team as "the product".

 

[bankshot1]

At this stage (and God knows it can change by the time I finish typing this), I think we're headed for a ending where the Wells report states (in very carefully crafted prose) something to the tune of "No evidence can be found that the Patriots did anything against NFL rules." As with all rulings that try to have it both ways, this will satisfy no one.
 
Many will just conclude that the Patriots "got away with it," because the NFL botched both the protocols and the aftermath. Many will say that it's not Kraft's wanted "apology," and leaves open the question as to whether NE actually did do anything.
 
Until the McNally fiasco, I thought we were headed to a showdown between Kraft and Goodell. I don't think so anymore. The Pats will escape "penalty," but the wording of the ruling will be open-ended.
 
As many, here and the media have said and are now saying, no decision will have any impact because no minds can be changed about the perception of the Patriots. Anyone who still thinks that's possible, or necessary, should go outside more often.
 
Kensil will go away quietly in August.
 
*subject to change

Kraft went all in by challenging the NFL to put up or shut-up. If there is no evidence against the Pats, and if the NFL/Wells investigation tries to middle this with an open-ended report, I don't think Kraft will be satisfied. I expect Kraft to double-down and and demand answers to the conflicting stories and leaks that the NFL countenanced. His reputation and legacy at stake. I think it clear he's not going to play nice when his organization was repeatedly knifed in the back. Staying within the conspiratorial parameters we've been in, assuming no damning evidence is found, IMO negotiations between Kraft and the league starts once the investigation is over and Kraft has a pretty good idea how the conclusion reads. 
 
and Kensil may be the fall guy

 

[Leather]

Midwesterners are genuinely nice. So nice their fans comically irritate easterners -- e.g. Saint Louis, 2004 and 2007.

How a relatively small place like Indy can contain two monumental assholes, Doyle and Kravitz, is beyond me. Boston has only three (Mazz does not count; he is inconsequential).

In all events, this will be the back pedaling narrative: 1. Our rush to judgment was legit in light of 2007. 2. It may not have been a rush because anything exculpatory is not worthy of belief.

Sigh.

Some Midwesterners are nice. Some are assholes. The legions of fans standing outside the cardinals' stadium mocking black protesters tells me that the Cards' fan base isn't as "nice" as they make themselves out to be.

Indy is likewise generally ok, but a lot of people there consider themselves righteous; it is a very Christian place. Lots of people there view the Colts as an extension of their faith, and that Peyton and Dungy et al were "one of them". Add to the fact that, frankly, there isn't a hell of a lot else going on in Indiana, and there you have it. Insulting the Colts, or embarrassing the Colts, is taken personally in a way that is unusual to any place else I've ever been.

 

[joe dokes]

Kraft went all in by challenging the NFL to put up or shut-up. If there is no evidence against the Pats, and if the NFL/Wells investigation tries to middle this with an open-ended report, I don't think Kraft will be satisfied. I expect Kraft to double-down and and demand answers to the conflicting stories and leaks that the NFL countenanced. His reputation and legacy at stake. I think it clear he's not going to play nice when his organization was repeatedly knifed in the back. Staying within the conspiratorial parameters we've been in, assuming no damning evidence is found, IMO negotiations between Kraft and the league starts once the investigation is over and Kraft has a pretty good idea how the conclusion reads. 
 
and Kensil may be the fall guy

 
Kraft has spent a lot of time and energy accumulating -- in addition to money -- respect and a fair degree of power (at least as much as an owner can.)  Kraft is Vito.  Everyone else is the mortician. No owner is likely to bite the hand that feeds them too hard. But I think he'll be able to round up a minyan to push for a result he wants and can get.  Kraft could end up being Goodell's Al Davis.  Except he's not un-dead and his team is good.
 
Hell, if kensil really is up to his ass in this, even some players who think the patriots are cheaters through and through will be sympathetic, as it helps their narrative that the league office is full of incompetent, untrustworthy, arbitrary, capricious shitheads.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I don't know how anyone can really claim no real economic impact especially since it's near impossible to quantify it.  Merchandise sales, picking up fans outside of the region, and any other thing that you can think of for a franchise that is really successful even though its not local.  I see a lot of Steelers and Cowboys gear worn by folks that started watching football when they were kids and those franchises were dominant.  There may be some lost opportunity because kids want to root against a team of cheaters as opposed to to rooting for a legitimately great franchise.  We're sitting in the here and now basking in the glory of this win, but I'm going to bet that years from now we'll still be talking about how special this era really is, while the detractors will fell obligated to taint it with BS like SpyGate and Ballghazi,  It may be just talk to us, but I can't see how it doesn't translate to lost dollars for the Patriot brand.  Remember, Kraft is a businessman first.  From the very beginning, he referred to the team as "the product".

 
Look, I understand the argument that lack of data does not disprove something.  However I my opinion is that the number of people in New England or elsewhere who already didn't yet have an opinion about the Patriots and decided (a) that they weren't going to follow the NFL (important because if they root for another team, the league, and by extension, the Patriots still benefit) or (b) they disliked the Patriots or their players due to them deflating footballs is essentially an inconsequential group.  
 
Once again, we saw a high profile NFL player tune up his fiancee on video a few months ago while several other players did the same but just not on tape.  We know these guys are putting themselves in harms way every time they step on the field and that each bone crushing hit may mean an early death.   And we know the league knows this too but sugarcoats it.  However it can be argued, judging by the Superbowl ratings,  that the NFL is now more popular than ever.  You mean to tell me that allegations of deflating a few footballs is really going to damage a franchise or a league?   
 
One last thing on Kraft - I love the guy and it wouldn't surprise me to find that he is hugely influential around the NFL.   But we simply don't know that. If you work in a large organization, power is a tricky thing to put your finger on and its very fluid.   It may well be that Kraft is one of the more powerful owners as some reports suggest.  However, we also don't know is if he really wants to spend his internal capital defending his reputation.  He may well be angry at Goodell and a host of others and that he may want heads to roll.  What we don't know is if he can get something else he wants by using his influence and anger as leverage.  That said, if some of you are privy to his thinking here, I would love to hear about his current mindset.

 

[Doctor G]

Kraft was pretty emphatic about his concern with the damage this whole deal has done not so much to the value of the franchise but to the reputations of Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. This smear job could damage their potential future earnings from endorsements and speaking appearances post football.
How many corporations want to bring in speakers who are publicly labeled cheaters

 

[Kull]

 
Hell, if kensil really is up to his ass in this, even some players who think the patriots are cheaters through and through will be sympathetic, as it helps their narrative that the league office is full of incompetent, untrustworthy, arbitrary, capricious shitheads.

 
This touches on an aspect we haven't really considered yet. Deflategate has nothing to do with the court system, and to some extent is subject to the rules of a Star Chamber. But once concussion cases start moving through the courts, isn't the competence of the NFL as an organization a valid line of questioning? To the extent that somebody like Kensil had anything to do with concussion issues (like enforcement of protocols for example), his total shit show approach to Deflategate wouldn't inspire confidence in anyone, especially if he's put on the stand and grilled up and down about issues like following rules. It's all well and good to say the owners won't touch Goodell because he keeps the money flowing, but his organization is a clown show. At some point that may well be a contributing factor in large legal judgments that in fact WILL have an impact on the money in owner's pockets.
 
All things being equal, as an NFL owner wouldn't you feel a hell of a lot more comfortable and confident if the League Office were run by people capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time? It's really not that a high a standard: "A league office that doesn't fuck up EVERYTHING". Kraft may have more leverage than some here suspect. Admittedly he's championed Goodell until now, but there always comes a tipping point.

 

[joe dokes]

 
Once again, we saw a high profile NFL player tune up his fiancee on video a few months ago while several other players did the same but just not on tape.  We know these guys are putting themselves in harms way every time they step on the field and that each bone crushing hit may mean an early death.   And we know the league knows this too but sugarcoats it.  However it can be argued, judging by the Superbowl ratings,  that the NFL is now more popular than ever.  You mean to tell me that allegations of deflating a few footballs is really going to damage a franchise or a league?   

 
Probably not quantifiably.  But when the second graf of every Patriots story for the entirety of the Kraft-BB-Brady era is "........on the other hand, detractors say they cheated their way to the top.  Even though nothing was proven after the Seattle win . . . . .," that's analogous to the reasons why certain libelous statements carry with them the presumption of damages --it's difficult for an individual to prove quantifiable economic harm from being incorrectly labelled a criminal. (let's say he doesn't lose his job).
 
I'm NOT saying the Patriots were libelled. But at some level, we "presume damage" from "reputational injury."  The final chapters haven't been written, so its hard to say right now, but if the "damages trial" were to start right now, Kraft would have reams of "they are cheaters....the rings are frauds" stories to show the "jury."  The NFL, in this fictional "trial," would show Spycrap & the ever-increasing value of the franchise. Kraft would reply, "The value of the franchise and value of my/the team's reputation are two different things."  The "jury," having no sympathy for billionaires, would  issue a verdict for Kraft and a damage award of $1.
 
Goodell, IMO, is the Jonathan Kraft of the NFL. A little nepotism; a little Peter Principle. In any world where Roger Goodell couldn't unilaterally and  arbitrarily banish him to the ethers, the elder Kraft would wipe the floor with him.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Kraft went all in by challenging the NFL to put up or shut-up. If there is no evidence against the Pats, and if the NFL/Wells investigation tries to middle this with an open-ended report, I don't think Kraft will be satisfied. I expect Kraft to double-down and and demand answers to the conflicting stories and leaks that the NFL countenanced. His reputation and legacy at stake. I think it clear he's not going to play nice when his organization was repeatedly knifed in the back. Staying within the conspiratorial parameters we've been in, assuming no damning evidence is found, IMO negotiations between Kraft and the league starts once the investigation is over and Kraft has a pretty good idea how the conclusion reads. 
 
and Kensil may be the fall guy

 
I think you might be putting more faith in Kraft's power than will eventually matter.
 
If they can't determine what caused the balls to be below accepted pressure, the option still exists that someone connected with NE did something to them. That might not want to be a door Kraft wants to re-open. Remember, unless actually psi figures exist for both teams' footballs -- before the game and after a halftime check -- the science theory can't be proved definitively because the data won't exist. If Anderson checked by feel and Kensil & Co. checked by gauge, it only proves what the balls were at half.
 
As for the leaks, there's little doubt that the Patriots themselves haven't said things behind the scenes about this. As for Kraft's reputation and legacy, those fall once again into that wish-fulfilment area where somehow people's perceptions will be altered by what comes out of this mess. They won't. People think of the Patriots -- from Kraft on dow -- what they will think of them. No decision in this will change that -- even if the extreme example of a Kensil-Grigson plot could be proved. Kraft shouldn't care about what people in Indy or Philly or New York think about him anymore than NE fans should care what media types in those places say about the Patriots.
 
Without admission or absolute evidence, Kensil isn't going to be placed in the stocks for public scorn. Kraft will be told that he'll quietly slip away as part of this decision, but that won't be made public. In exchange, the Patriots won't be fined or have a draft pick taken away.
 
There's no foundation for expecting any more than that, given how few facts are currently in evidence.

 

[bankshot1]

As far as  know, no one here is privy to Kraft's inner thoughts. However we've seen him twice in the past month 1) attack the NFL's running of this investigation and 2) after winning the SB, admit he was "irritated" by the leaks. He made it clear he felt betrayed by the league. I also think that what we know, he has the trust of the owners and players by his public role in helping settle the labor issue. Further we've been told he along with the Mara family, the Rooneys, Richardon and Jones is among the most influential of NFL owners. He has currency.
 
As the NFL tries to make moves into the future placing a franchise or two in LA, and maybe considering international expansion, strategic moves to grow the league revenues from $10B to $25B and moves that will need strong support league wide, having a commissioner who sand-bagged one of his most powerful owners, may not be the strongest play for a long-term contract. Presumably Kraft's family want to be in the club for a long-time and want to be considered influential. IMO allowing the league tarnish them in this sting, is clearly against their best long-term interests, and is a real good reason to spend some of that accumulated capital.
 
Again for a multi-billionaire, IMO his reputation and legacy and standing in the communities he works and lives are paramount. Anything less than a clean bill of health will not satisfy Mr Kraft.

 

[tims4wins]

Go back to Kraft's first statement. He clearly says in the absence of definitive proof he wants an apology. Not a wishy washy nothing can be proven finding.

"If the Wells investigation is not able to definitively determine that our organization tampered with the air pressure in the footballs, I would expect and hope the league would apologize to our entire team, and in particular to Coach Belichick and Tom Brady, for what theyve had to endure this week," Kraft said. "Im disappointed in the way this entire matter has been handled and reported upon. We expect hard facts rather than circumstantial leaked evidence to drive the conclusion of this investigation."

 

[E5 Yaz]

Go back to Kraft's first statement. He clearly says in the absence of definitive proof he wants an apology. Not a wishy washy nothing can be proven finding.

"If the Wells investigation is not able to definitively determine that our organization tampered with the air pressure in the footballs, I would expect and hope the league would apologize to our entire team, and in particular to Coach Belichick and Tom Brady, for what theyve had to endure this week," Kraft said. "Im disappointed in the way this entire matter has been handled and reported upon. We expect hard facts rather than circumstantial leaked evidence to drive the conclusion of this investigation."

 
So? 
 
If there are no penalties against the Patriots and the NFL concludes that no evidence of wrongdoing can be found ... and Kraft comes out and says he still wants an apology, he's going to be seen as whiny.

 

[tims4wins]

Look obviously this analogy is flawed, but if you were accused of something and dragged through the mud for it, people wrote and said all kinds of shit about you, your integrity was questioned and your reputation was tarnished, and then an investigation took place and said nothing can be proven, so the public still doesn't trust you... you think asking for an apology would be whiny?

What if you were accused of cheating on a school test? Or insider trading? Or a petty crime like stealing something relativey minor? You would think asking for an apology is whiny?

If my reputation was called into question and I was found to be innocent I would damn well ask for an apology.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Look obviously this analogy is flawed, but if you were accused of something and dragged through the mud for it, people wrote and said all kinds of shit about you, your integrity was questioned and your reputation was tarnished, and then an investigation took place and said nothing can be proven, so the public still doesn't trust you... you think asking for an apology would be whiny?

What if you were accused of cheating on a school test? Or insider trading? Or a petty crime like stealing something relativey minor? You would think asking for an apology is whiny?

If my reputation was called into question and I was found to be innocent I would damn well ask for an apology.

 
You're making the assumption that just because no evidence of wrong-doing could be found, the Patriots were not guilty of any wrong-doing. 
 
We don't know that and, given the circus that this has become, it's quite possible we will never know that.
 
So, yes, outside the bubble of New England, the Patriots and the Patriots fan base, asking for a public apology after having no penalty assessed and a statement that no evidence of wrong-doing could be found will be considered whiny.
 
IF, however, as I said before, if it can be proven that there's recorded data supporting the science or that this was some sort of attempt to "get back" at the Patriots, then an apology is warranted.
 
But in your analogy, you're demanding an apology for something you might be guilty of, but just couldn't be proven.
 
Those people who don't trust Kraft and the Patriots now are still not going to trust them later ... even if this is proven to be a bunch of hooey.

 

[Bone Chips]

For me the Kraft angle has always been the most interesting part of this story. I don't think it's in Kraft's DNA to go nuclear. The guy's a bridge builder. One of the keys to his success is to calmly work through tough situations with deals that end up working to his long term financial benefit. But he does value loyalty and family, so the legacy impacts to Brady and Belichik may be enough for him to change his spots. My guess is that he continues to talk tough, but I just don't see him working to get people whacked. I hope I am wrong though.

 

[tims4wins]

That is fair enough, but given how the organization handled both Spygate and Hernandez, I think they would have admitted to wrongdoing if they did something. Maybe that is just a fanboy statement.

I do find it frustrating that no one in the media has
brought that up (that I have seen). Everyone, and I mean everyone, holds Spygate against the Pats. But it has to be pointed out that they cooperated with the NFL immediately and also admitted guilt immediately. They weren't trying to hide anything. So when people say they don't get the benefit of the doubt due to Spygate, I would argue that they do deserve the benefit of the doubt due to how it was handled.

Just venting, probably from the standpoint of fanboy.

 

[E5 Yaz]

For me the Kraft angle has always been the most interesting part of this story. I don't think it's in Kraft's DNA to go nuclear. The guy's a bridge builder. One of the keys to his success is to calmly work through tough situations with deals that end up working to his long term financial benefit. But he does value loyalty and family, so the legacy impacts to Brady and Belichik may be enough for him to change his spots. My guess is that he continues to talk tough, but I just don't see him working to get people whacked. I hope I am wrong though.

 
I think the Brady stuff bothers him more than the Belichick. He went down this road after the SpyGate penalties -- remember his famous "schmuck" quote -- and knows that his coach takes things to the edge of the rule book and has a reputation in some quarters that will never change. Heck, look how Kraft himself brought Belichick aboard to coach.
 
But the Brady stuff is different and, combined with the in-flight timing of the leak that set him off, that's whatled to him coming out guns blazing.
 
But you're right, Kraft's animosity toward those involved isn't going to outweigh his primary focus -- which is keeping the NFL, and thus the Patriots, a property whose value continues to increase.

 

[Stitch01]

Kraft won't go nuclear if there is no public apology alongside no penalty. Kraft is a defend the shield guy himself and his inclination is going to be to fix the relationship. Rog better figure out how to make it right behind the scenes though. Not really a great career move for Rog to burn a key ally. Particularly since Goodell, as a fuck up, will almost certainly have another mess to clean up soon enough.

 

[Bone Chips]

What if you were accused of cheating on a school test? Or insider trading? Or a petty crime like stealing something relativey minor? You would think asking for an apology is whiny?
If my reputation was called into question and I was found to be innocent I would damn well ask for an apology.

You are never found innocent. You are found not guilty. And people always view it that way, that there wasn't enough evidence. Deep down you know people still look at you and think you did something wrong. You also know from experience that complaining about it, feeling sorry for yourself, or asking for an apology is a fool's errand, as it only reinforces over and over that you were found "not guilty of a crime". And people remember two words in that quote - "guilty" and "crime". So you shut up about it, live your life every day with integrity and focus, and let your actions speak for the type of person you are.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

That is fair enough, but given how the organization handled both Spygate and Hernandez, I think they would have admitted to wrongdoing if they did something. Maybe that is just a fanboy statement.

I do find it frustrating that no one in the media has
brought that up (that I have seen). Everyone, and I mean everyone, holds Spygate against the Pats. But it has to be pointed out that they cooperated with the NFL immediately and also admitted guilt immediately. They weren't trying to hide anything. So when people say they don't get the benefit of the doubt due to Spygate, I would argue that they do deserve the benefit of the doubt due to how it was handled.

Just venting, probably from the standpoint of fanboy.

95% of the people who rant about the Patriots "cheating" referencing SpyGate do not know what is was.

Ask them. I usually get that they taped practices which comes from the previous unsubstantiated claims we here are all familiar with.

So in the end, the same uninformed non-Pats NFL/football/sports "fan" already "knows" the Patriots "deflated" the footballs.

Nothing from here on out is going to move that needle.

Even if Wells has and report rock solid proof of a sting involving some or all of Kensil, Grigson, Harbaugh, etc.

 

[tims4wins]

95% of the people who rant about the Patriots "cheating" referencing SpyGate do not know what is was.

Ask them. I usually get that they taped practices which comes from the previous unsubstantiated claims we here are all familiar with.

So in the end, the same uninformed non-Pats NFL/football/sports "fan" already "knows" the Patriots "deflated" the footballs.

Nothing from here on out is going to move that needle.

Even if Wells has and report rock solid proof of a sting involving some or all of Kensil, Grigson, Harbaugh, etc.

 
Again, this is all true. I was mostly referring to the media though. Unfortunately, the 95% comment applies to the media as well. They suck.

 

[snowmanny]

You are never found innocent. You are found not guilty. And people always view it that way, that there wasn't enough evidence. Deep down you know people still look at you and think you did something wrong. You also know from
experience that complaining about it, feeling sorry for yourself, or asking for an apology is a fool's errand, as it only reinforces over and over that
you were found "not guilty of a crime". And
people remember two words in that quote - "guilty" and "crime". So you shut up about it, live
your life every day with integrity and focus, and let your actions speak for the type of person you are.

Well, the other thing you can do is return the favor to people who are making unsubstantiated accusations. That's why Jerry Rice's Twitter and
Joe Montana's Twitter are full of comments about Stickum and asterisks. That's why the Colts are being asked if they deflated the D'Qwell ball. It may not be as honorable a route as your keep
your head down and ignore the noise strategy, but it provides some small satisfactions.
Edit: And obviously Brady and Belichick aren't going to do (much of) that themselves, but New England fans can be a persistent bunch on their behalf.

 

[bankshot1]

 
So? 
 
If there are no penalties against the Patriots and the NFL concludes that no evidence of wrongdoing can be found ... and Kraft comes out and says he still wants an apology, he's going to be seen as whiny.

If there is nothing the NFL can pin on the Pats other than an unauthorized bathroom break, Kraft and his lawyer's will see the last draft of the report before it goes public. If there is nothing on the Pats there will be no real cost to Goodell/Wells from saying exactly that.
 
ie. We are sorry the Patriots were hurt by this event, but we want to make it clear there is no evidence that suggests in any way they had anything to do with the footballs deflating" (or whatever)
 
Goodell has already been made to like like a fool in this matter, either orchestrating an endless stream of conflicting leaks, or a guy who has no control of his shop. Offering an olive branch to Kraft would not be a bad way to mend fences and the cost to Goodell is nil. And he gets to cash those $40MM checks for the next few years.
 
And if the pundits want to kill Goodell for issuing an "apology" to one of his more powerful bosses, whats the argument, that he's kow-towing to one of his bosses who got sand-bagged unfairly?
 
screw them.

 

[crystalline]

  
 
One last thing on Kraft - I love the guy and it wouldn't surprise me to find that he is hugely influential around the NFL.   But we simply don't know that. If you work in a large organization, power is a tricky thing to put your finger on and its very fluid.   It may well be that Kraft is one of the more powerful owners as some reports suggest.  However, we also don't know is if he really wants to spend his internal capital defending his reputation.  He may well be angry at Goodell and a host of others and that he may want heads to roll.  What we don't know is if he can get something else he wants by using his influence and anger as leverage.  That said, if some of you are privy to his thinking here, I would love to hear about his current mindset.

I agree, we don't know what Kraft thinks of Goodell. We believe, based on a short statement and a brief interaction before the trophy was awarded, that Kraft is angry at Goodell. (Kraft's absence at the press conference could be read as wanting to keep the press from getting distracted.)

However, we know Kraft has cultivated Goodell in the past, for example with his statement of support after Ray Rice. A major member of a corporate board does not snub his CEO in public unless he is ready to toss away that relationship. As a competent businessman, Kraft should be glad-handing Goodell right up until Kraft is ready to push him out.

So, I tend to think either the snubs are overblown, or that Kraft has already lined up the votes to take Goodell out if he doesn't make things right.