#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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steveluck7

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RIFan said:
There is an element that if Goodell wants to lose the battle, but win the war he will agree that due process was not followed, vacate the suspension, and impose a $50k fine similar to Favre. He could reduce the team penalties as well. The catch would be that he could claim that the Patriots and Brady are only getting off on a technicality and that the league firmly believes that there is a culture of cheating and they are on notice that any future instances will be dealt with severely. That would firmly brand Brady and the Patriots as what many already believe they are without allowing them their "day in court"* If legacy matters to Brady and Kraft enough, the idea that they only got off on a technicality without the chance to get an independent ruling of innocence may hurt more.

*hardcore haters will always hate, it's the more passive fans that will have their opinions affected by this.
The problem is that he's shown a pattern of botching investigations and disciplinary measures. How many times can he get away with "we know something happened but we messed up the investigation and i'm not really familiar with the CBA so you're ok this time but watch yourselves" before his incompetency is mainstream fodder?
 
 

Super Nomario

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Question for those familiar with the Wells report: Why does Figure 22 on Exponent page 44 look so much different than the curves described in Figures 24 - 28 (Pages 50 - 55)? It should be the same, I think, but 22 shows the balls nearly getting back to original pressure in the 14-minute locker room period, while the other charts show them not getting closer than 0.5 PSI or so.
 

joe dokes

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nighthob said:
 
I think I said either here or in the monster thread that if Goodell were smart he'd let Brady off the hook with a fine and let the slime cling. Fortunately for Brady and the Patriots Goodell isn't and he will probably allow a court to smack the NFL down. And once someone with clean hands looks at this the gig is up for the NFL. 
 
Taking the long view is not Goodell's strong suit.
 

RIFan

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steveluck7 said:
The problem is that he's shown a pattern of botching investigations and disciplinary measures. How many times can he get away with "we know something happened but we messed up the investigation and i'm not really familiar with the CBA so you're ok this time but watch yourselves" before his incompetency is mainstream fodder?
 
Is there some realm where his incompetency is not mainstream fodder?
 

RG33

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The NFLPA letter to Vincent is remarkable. It is remarkable in that if it truly is a CBA violation to have Vincent hand down the "conduct detrimental" discipline, then it not only gives Brady the clear path to an independent arbriter and a fairly easy road to a vacating of his suspension, but it also gives the Patriots and Kraft a clear path to building support from the owners to oust Goodell. As it stands, owners are not going to want to get involved with supporting Kraft or the Patriots because they want this shit to go away. The one thing they cannot do is continue to give the NFLPA more and more leverage in the upcoming CBA negotiations by continuing to show that the League Office willfully ignores it. This, moreso than his inept PR capabilities, the ridiculous Wells Report, and his repeated mishandling of just about everything will be Goodell's downfall.
 

Harry Hooper

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garzooma said:
The problem with this idea, which I'll bet Kraft himself has used with fellow owners, is that when the League brought up CameraPlacementGate, they basically obliterated the "moving on": "Just put this behind you Hester Prynne, but you still have to wear that scarlet letter."  This is especially egregious considering the "more probable than not" standard -- it doesn't even have to be proven you did anything wrong.  I wonder if one of the things Kraft will be after is a change in the bylaws to explicitly prohibit the NFL from considering past issues.
 

Yes, this idea of past issues continuing to drive further discipline must be a huge concern for Kraft assuming he intends the Kraft Family to continue ownership of the Pats for decades to come.
 

OnWisc

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There is an element that if Goodell wants to lose the battle, but win the war he will agree that due process was not followed, vacate the suspension, and impose a $50k fine similar to Favre. He could reduce the team penalties as well. The catch would be that he could claim that the Patriots and Brady are only getting off on a technicality and that the league firmly believes that there is a culture of cheating and they are on notice that any future instances will be dealt with severely. That would firmly brand Brady and the Patriots as what many already believe they are without allowing them their "day in court"* If legacy matters to Brady and Kraft enough, the idea that they only got off on a technicality without the chance to get an independent ruling of innocence may hurt more.

*hardcore haters will always hate, it's the more passive fans that will have their opinions affected by this.
Then he loses the war, too. He'd be responsible for goofing up that technicality, and all the fans that want to see the Patriots punished would turn their ire on him. And if you're the owner of another team whose fans are salivating to see the Pats get nailed, and they skate because a commissioner who's already proven to be incompetent fucks up yet again, you're going to start hearing it from your own fan base.

If any owners are in fact at the end of their rope with Goodell, waiting until the Pats punishment gets knocked way back gives them the perfect opportunity to get him out of there and to look good in the eyes of their fanbase.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Average Reds said:
I have said from the beginning that the suspension of Brady would be overturned because it was built on the quicksand of multiple assumptions that could not stand on their own.  What I didn't realize was that Goodell would make it easy on Brady by ignoring the procedure outlined in the CBA.
 
The lawyers here are correct in stating that Federal Courts are very reluctant to involve themselves in cases that are covered by contractually mandated arbitration.  However, they routinely do so when there is obvious evidence of bad faith or the issues are clearly outside of the scope of the CBA.
 
It seems obvious that Goodell has operated with both a clear disregard for the CBA ... again ... and multiple breaches of good faith.  Brady will get his day in court and he will win.
 
The amazing thing is that Goodell really doesn't seem to care at all about following the CBA or acting in ways that would lead to his disciplinary decisions being overturned by arbitrators or the courts.  It happened with the Saints, it happened with Ray Rice, it happened with Adrian Peterson, and now it seems likely to happen with Brady.  That's quite a losing streak and it doesn't seem to have changed his approach to player discipline one bit.  He's going to act like Caesar and let the chips fall where they may.
 

lexrageorge

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From the following link, in case anyone's interested:
 
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/cba/nfl-cba-2006-2012.pdf
 
Article XI on Commissioner Discipline
 
 
(a) All disputes involving a fine or suspension imposed upon a player for conduct on the playing field other than as described in Subsection (b) below, or involving action taken against a player by the Commissioner for conduct detrimental to the integrity of, or public confidence in, the game of professional football, will be processed exclusively as follows: the Commissioner will promptly send written notice of his action to the player, with a copy to the NFLPA. Within twenty (20) days following such written notification, the player affected thereby, or the NFLPA with the player’s approval, may appeal in writing to the Commissioner
 
BTW, Subsection (b) refers to the discipline process for unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct during a game.  For those penalties, the Commissioner may appoint a designee to determine discipline. 
 
From Appendix C, NFL Player Contract template
 
15. INTEGRITY OF THE GAME.  Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness...<bribes, gambling, PED usage>...or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/or to terminate this contract.
 
The NFLPA has got this one right.  Not sure how Goodell can get around this one.  
 

Average Reds

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I will say this:  the folks who keep saying that Goodell should have swept this under the rug are misreading the level of resentment and outright hatred that exists in the NFL community for the Patriots.
 
People outside of NE look at the Pats the way we looked at the Yankees 10+ years ago.  They are seen as an arrogant, entitled organization that bends the rules when it suits them and shows no remorse when caught.  It's not right, but the perception is real.
 
There is no constituency for vacating Brady's suspension, the loss of draft picks, etc.  Goodell faces no uprising among the owners for acting recklessly.  (Hell, they were rooting him on.)  In short, people within the NFL community don't care about the evidence - they believe the accusations.  And they want to see the Pats get what's coming to them.  They don't fear Goodell turning his ire towards them because they believe that they aren't like the Pats.  (Of course, this is not too dissimilar to how Kraft felt about Goodell when he rallied to his side last fall.  So there's a karmic justice at work here.)
 
In short, Brady and the Pats have no play here except to push ahead as aggressively as they can.  Brady will win.  The team almost certainly will not.  But if they feel they have been treated unfairly, they need to push their claims aggressively.  Perhaps with a bit more tactical finesse than yesterday.
 

Doctor G

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dcmissle said:
I keep visualizing BB not having to spend a nanosecond thinking about this nonsense other than contingency planning.
BB knows that his enemies are providing him  with a limitless  extremely high octane supply of the fuel he uses to motivate his football team.
I picture him sitting on Nantucket  saying keep it coming boys, while his opponents around the league are high fiving each other believing they finally got  the White Whale.
 

Silverdude2167

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WayBackVazquez said:
ESPN's legal "guru," once-disbarred former attorney Lester Munson weighs in: http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12888612/tom-brady-nflpa-cannot-win-appeal-filed-deflategate

If you knew nothing about the case or the law, but based your prediction on Lester, you could be nearly certain Brady's suspension will be overturned.
Was he drunk when he wrote this?
 
 
 
The evidence gathered by attorney Ted Wells for the NFL's investigation is clear and convincing.
 

bankshot1

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Regarding today's NFLPA letter to Vincent.
 
If the NFLPA is right, and Vincent has no right to impose penalties, and only Goodell does, would this then give Goodell a second bite at the apple? ie he could then assign whatever penalty is saw fit? And then the appeal process goes from there?
 

Average Reds

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BigSoxFan said:
What I don't understand is how these mistakes can continually be made. Doesn't he have a team of advisors, lawyers, etc. reviewing everything he does? How does simple procedural stuff get by them? I'm astounded by all this.
 
Ask yourself this: would anyone who was in touch with reality declare that he wanted to be "a leader in the domestic violence space?" 
 
Goodell and the owners are the blind leading the clueless.
 

OCST

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I do nothing with restraint of trade/antitrust law, and only dimly remember an aged crone of a law school prof droning on about the Sherman Act while I was thinking about something else.
 
But I wonder if there could be a creative restraint of trade/antitrust argument along these lines:
 
--Winning games on the field/championships enriches clubs through the increase in value for successful franchises (look at the eye-popping increase for NEP during the Kraft/BB/TB era)
--NFL wrongfully penalized NEP the loss of draft picks which are crucial to on-the-field success - I'm sure you could do a quant analysis showing that X draft pick translates into Y wins and thus into Z value of franchise (of course if no direct link can be shown, the whole thing doesn't work)
--NFL did so without basis in fact and without regard for due process (rehash whole thread here)
--League office may have colluded with another member club (Colts) to run a sting/impose sham discipline
--Ergo value of Kraft's franchise has been unlawfully diminished by the other 31 clubs, acting by and through their agents, Park Avenue and Rog
 
It's a stretch, and I freely admit to talking out my ass, but if Al Davis can sue his peers for unlawfully restraining his move to another city, could something like this work?  Can someone smarter than me weigh in?
 

joe dokes

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Doctor G said:
BB knows that his enemies are providing him  with a limitless  extremely high octane supply of the fuel he uses to motivate his football team.
I picture him sitting on Nantucket and changing the name of his boat  saying keep it coming boys, while his opponents around the league are high fiving each other believing they finally got  the White Whale.
 
FTFY
 

Ed Hillel

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I kind of hope Roger goes ahead with the appeal, upholds it, Brady appeals to a court comes in and remands a ruling back to the NFL because Vincent can't make the rule and Roger has to. At this point, Roger issues a 4-game suspension, a loss of 1st and 4th round draft picks, Brady appeals, Roger decides he's going to hear it again, and we head back to federal court.
 

DJnVa

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Average Reds

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bankshot1 said:
Regarding today's NFLPA letter to Vincent.
 
If the NFLPA is right, and Vincent has no right to impose penalties, and only Goodell does, would this then give Goodell a second bite at the apple? ie he could then assign whatever penalty is saw fit? And then the appeal process goes from there?
 
The idea that Goodell could order a do-over is precisely why Ray Rice got his suspension vacated.
 
I believe that for better or worse, Goodell is stuck with what the NFL has done here.
 

Harry Hooper

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lexrageorge said:
From the following link, in case anyone's interested:
 
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/cba/nfl-cba-2006-2012.pdf
 
Article XI on Commissioner Discipline
 
 
 
BTW, Subsection (b) refers to the discipline process for unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct during a game.  For those penalties, the Commissioner may appoint a designee to determine discipline. 
 
From Appendix C, NFL Player Contract template
 
 
The NFLPA has got this one right.  Not sure how Goodell can get around this one.  
 
 
So Roger will send out a new disciplinary decision letter -- six games for Brady and Pats forfeit an additional pair of second-round picks?
 

Guapos Toenails

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lexrageorge said:
From the following link, in case anyone's interested:
 
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/cba/nfl-cba-2006-2012.pdf
 
Article XI on Commissioner Discipline
 
 
 
BTW, Subsection (b) refers to the discipline process for unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct during a game.  For those penalties, the Commissioner may appoint a designee to determine discipline. 
 
From Appendix C, NFL Player Contract template
 
 
The NFLPA has got this one right.  Not sure how Goodell can get around this one.  
Is this the current CBA?  It says 2006-2012
 

lexrageorge

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bankshot1 said:
Regarding today's NFLPA letter to Vincent.
 
If the NFLPA is right, and Vincent has no right to impose penalties, and only Goodell does, would this then give Goodell a second bite at the apple? ie he could then assign whatever penalty is saw fit? And then the appeal process goes from there?
I'm not really sure, because the little of read of the actual CBA does not get into that detail.  Goodell may very well get to reinstated the same penalty.  However, in that case, he would almost certainly have to submit to independent arbitration for the appeal; otherwise, I cannot see how the courts would uphold a penalty that was initially applied incorrectly, in a manner that directly violated the written terms of the CBA.  
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Average Reds said:
I will say this:  the folks who keep saying that Goodell should have swept this under the rug are misreading the level of resentment and outright hatred that exists in the NFL community for the Patriots.
 
People outside of NE look at the Pats the way we looked at the Yankees 10+ years ago.  They are seen as an arrogant, entitled organization that bends the rules when it suits them and shows no remorse when caught.  It's not right, but the perception is real.
 
There is no constituency for vacating Brady's suspension, the loss of draft picks, etc.  Goodell faces no uprising among the owners for acting recklessly.  (Hell, they were rooting him on.)  In short, people within the NFL community don't care about the evidence - they believe the accusations.  And they want to see the Pats get what's coming to them.  They don't fear Goodell turning his ire towards them because they believe that they aren't like the Pats.  (Of course, this is not too dissimilar to how Kraft felt about Goodell when he rallied to his side last fall.  So there's a karmic justice at work here.)
 
In short, Brady and the Pats have no play here except to push ahead as aggressively as they can.  Brady will win.  The team almost certainly will not.  But if they feel they have been treated unfairly, they need to push their claims aggressively.  Perhaps with a bit more tactical finesse than yesterday.
 
There's certainly an element of truth here but I think you're overstating the level of anti-Patriots sentiment, especially at the ownership level.  These guys are mainly concerned with protecting their investments, which means protecting the league and its reputation.  You have a few clowns like Irsay and Woody, who also happen to own teams that are direct rivals of the Patriots, but the majority of the owners have very little stake in bringing the Patriots down and just want this whole thing to go away.  I think if you polled the owners and asked them whether, in hindsight, they would rather have had deflategate never see the light of day (and thus no penalties on the Patriots), something like 90-95% would say yes.
 
Of course, once we've reached this point, their primary concern is to make the whole thing go away with as little bad press and hit to the league's reputation as possible.  And that obviously works against the Patriots' interests.  But if they tell Kraft to stuff it, its not because they're happy to see the Patriots take a hit, its because they care first and foremost about the bottom line and the value of their franchises.
 

Joshv02

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They hate Troy Vincent.
 
And they should. In addition to being duplicitous with the NFLPA, he clearly tried to railroad AP during that disciplinary investigation.  He expressly told him (in the context of basically begging him to come to what was previously described as a "hearing" in the letters to the lawyers, but what Vincent said would just be a "conversation" where he'd get no more than 2 games) that the new policy did not apply to him.
 
TROY VINCENT: So what--so remember this, uh, A.P., you're not--today, you' re not subject to the--to the new personal conduct policy.
 
Good for AP that he recorded the conversation.
 
I wish I could keep a gig with his level of incompetence.  
 

The Gray Eagle

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The WWE should be taking notes on this. The WWFL is showing how to bring lawyers and legal proceedings into feuds to drive interest among the marks and build nuclear heat. 
 

ivanvamp

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NortheasternPJ said:
It'll make the preseason interesting to say the least. They're going to start Garoppolo in the regular season. This is a golden opportunity to find out if he's real or not. There's no way they bring in a veteran to actually play unless he folds completely or gets hurt. 
 
If the 4 game suspension holds, which I don't think it will and will be reduced to 2, the interesting thing to me is what they're going to do in the preseason. You can't leave Brady on the shelf for 9 weeks (4 preseason games where he plays a bit like normal, 4 games and bye) and put him in there in week 6, but at the same time you need to give Garoppolo as many snaps as possible since he's going to be the starting QB and has never really played in the NFL.
 
I think this is very interesting.  You're right - you can't have Brady go without competitive football for that long.  But you don't want him out there in the preseason with the 3rd string OL.  Too big a risk.
 
So do you put him out there with the first string?  I don't think that makes sense, because if JG is going to play the first four games (the assumption of the OP), he *needs* to play with the first stringers.  Rhythm, timing, etc.  
 
But the more JG plays, the more it opens him up to injury, and then they really are screwed.  
 

soxhop411

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I still think that if this gets overturned Goodell is a dead man walking... He wont last 2 years
 

nighthob

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Average Reds said:
There is no constituency for vacating Brady's suspension, the loss of draft picks, etc.  Goodell faces no uprising among the owners for acting recklessly.  (Hell, they were rooting him on.)  In short, people within the NFL community don't care about the evidence - they believe the accusations.  And they want to see the Pats get what's coming to them.  They don't fear Goodell turning his ire towards them because they believe that they aren't like the Pats.
As I agree with the rest of it I just wanted to address this part, I'm not sure this is, strictly speaking, true. For one, I think the jealousy angle is overplayed at the owner level. While I agree that the Woody Johnsons and Junior Irsays of the NFL probably fall into this category, I think they're a minority. And while I don't don't doubt that a lot of owners that formally tried to oust Goodell are now egging him on, I don't believe it's because this has changed their mind about him.

At the time this whole non-scandal first broke some media members were wondering if the anti-Goodell owners were using this to cut Roger off from his lines of support. And that seems to have been just what happened here, he's lost Kraft for ever. I think the long knives are out and Goodell is going to be genuinely surprised when his new found friends plunge them in.
 

Leather

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Manish Mehta desrves to have some really embarrassing shit about him come to light and splayed all over the back page of the Herald.
 

NortheasternPJ

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soxhop411 said:
I still think that if this gets overturned Goodell is a dead man walking... He wont last 2 years
 
Roger: "OK, Troy, here's the plan. I designate you, you throw the book at them. Then when they appeal I can appoint myself arbitrator since technically you handed down the punishment"
Troy: "Sounds good! The only way Brady ever beat me was because he cheated! Should we check the CBA?"
Roger: "No, I'm sure we're fine"
 

ivanvamp

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lexrageorge said:
Try this one instead:
 
http://nflcommunications.com/current-cba/
 
Article 46 discussses Commissioner Discipline.  And Appendix A has the INTEGRITY OF THE GAME clause.  The wording is the same as before.  
 
The letter from Vincent to Brady:
 
Dear Tom:
The Commissioner has authorized me to inform you of the discipline that, pursuant to his authority under Article 46 of the CBA, has been imposed on you for your role in the use of under-inflated footballs by the Patriots in this year's AFC Championship Game. This activity represents a violation of longstanding playing rules developed to promote fairness in the game.
On May 6, independent investigator Ted Wells issued his report regarding the footballs used by the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game. Following an extensive investigation, the report established that the footballs used by the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game were inflated at a level that did not satisfy the standard set forth in the NFL's Official Playing Rules and that the condition of the footballs was the result of deliberate actions by employees of the Patriots. The activities of the Patriots' employees were thoroughly documented in the report, including through a series of text messages and telephone communications, as well as evidence of a breach in pre-game protocol. In addition, the conclusions were supported by extensive scientific analysis, as detailed in the report.
With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.
Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football. The integrity of the game is of paramount importance to everyone in our League, and requires an unshakable commitment to fairness and compliance with the playing rules. Each player, no matter how accomplished and otherwise respected, has an obligation to comply with the rules and must be held accountable for his actions when those rules are violated and the public's confidence in the game is called into question.
Accordingly, pursuant to the authority of the Commissioner under Article 46 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement and your NFL Player Contract, you are suspended without pay for your club's first four games of the 2015 regular season. This suspension will take effect upon the final roster reduction on September 5, 2015; until that time you may participate in all off-season activities, including preseason games.
If you wish to appeal this suspension, you may do so by sending written notice to me within three business days of this letter. If a timely appeal is noticed, a hearing will be scheduled promptly before the Commissioner or his designee at which you may be represented by counsel and present evidence in support of your appeal.
Sincerely,
Troy Vincent, Sr.

 
The first bolded part (The Commissioner has authorized me to inform you of the discipline that, pursuant to his authority under Article 46 of the CBA, has been imposed on you for your role in the use of under-inflated footballs by the Patriots in this year's AFC Championship Game.) seems to imply that the discipline was handed down by Goodell himself, but that Vincent was just conveying the message.  If that's so, it wouldn't seem to violate the CBA.  
 
HOWEVER, if that's how they want to play it, Goodell can't also be the one to hear the appeal, can he?  I mean, I thought one reason he could hear the appeal was because it is claimed that Vincent is the one who meted out the penalty.  Can they have it both ways?
 
The second bold part (Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football. The integrity of the game) sure fits in with that particular section of the CBA, however.
 

Gambler7

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lexrageorge said:
Try this one instead:
 
http://nflcommunications.com/current-cba/
 
Article 46 discussses Commissioner Discipline.  And Appendix A has the INTEGRITY OF THE GAME clause.  The wording is the same as before.  
Yes. It is pretty clear they are correct. If it were unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct on the field then he could appoint someone. In this situation he can not. It should have come from him and him only.
 

lexrageorge

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The CBA does say "The Commissioner will send written notice...".  Not sure he's allowed to authorize someone to do it for him.
 

DJnVa

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ivanvamp said:
 
 
The first bolded part (The Commissioner has authorized me to inform you of the discipline that, pursuant to his authority under Article 46 of the CBA, has been imposed on you for your role in the use of under-inflated footballs by the Patriots in this year's AFC Championship Game.) seems to imply that the discipline was handed down by Goodell himself, but that Vincent was just conveying the message.  If that's so, it wouldn't seem to violate the CBA.  
 

It does read like Vincent is just informing them of Roger's punishment.
 
If so though, then Goodell can't hear the appeal.