#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[mwonow]

Meanwhile, in marriage between the stupid and the willfully ignorant, we have Vincent on ESPN criticizing the union for using the courts to appeal RG's (and his own) judgments.
 
Actually, I apologize, I came here with the idea of letting Vincent's stupid speak for itself: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13171906/nfl-vp-troy-vincent-criticizes-nflpa-spending-legal-action-challenging-roger-goodell-authority

 

[Myt1]

Pay no attention to the money behind the Wells Report and concussion legal fees curtain.

 

[GBrushTWood]

 
 
"Look at the amount of money being spent on legal fees for a handful of people," said Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president of football operations. "It's millions and millions of dollars, and we've got players that are hurting. We've got young men who don't know how to identify a good financial adviser. Men are in transition who aren't doing well, and yet $8-10 million a year is spent in court fees about who should make a decision on someone, who in some cases has committed a crime.
"Think about that logically. Wouldn't it be better to spend our time and resources on the issues that are vital to our players -- past, present and future -- such as the players' total wellness and growing the game together?"

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13171906/nfl-vp-troy-vincent-criticizes-nflpa-spending-legal-action-challenging-roger-goodell-authorityhttp://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13171906/nfl-vp-troy-vincent-criticizes-nflpa-spending-legal-action-challenging-roger-goodell-authority

 
As George Carlin said, this is what's known as being stunningly and embarrassingly full of shit.
 
If you replace the name "Vincent" with Jack Warner or Sepp Blatter, you probably couldn't tell the difference. Hopefully, these smug NFL pricks end up with a similar fate as the FIFA cretins.

 

[Mooch]

Meanwhile, in marriage between the stupid and the willfully ignorant, we have Vincent on ESPN criticizing the union for using the courts to appeal RG's (and his own) judgments.
 
Actually, I apologize, I came here with the idea of letting Vincent's stupid speak for itself: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13171906/nfl-vp-troy-vincent-criticizes-nflpa-spending-legal-action-challenging-roger-goodell-authority

That, my friends, reads like a pre-emptive smear against Brady since they know this thing is headed to court. It sure seems like they are terrified of a lawsuit here.

 

[Average Reds]

That's the most impressive concentration of illogic and tone deafness I've seen in some time.

 

[Leather]

He was obviously fed a line and executed it poorly.

 

[Norm loves Vera]

Why didn't the reporter ask Vincent about the Courts overturning his and Goodell's punishments for those "few" the union is spending millions defending?  He really is Bagdad Bob and ignoring more than evidence and science. 
 
Perhaps Vincent knows if Goodell's ship sinks, he is one of those without a seat on the life boat.

 

[nighthob]

Given that he's been playing Gríma Wormtongue to Goodell's tongue tied Saruman for years his career as an NFL official will almost certainly end with Goodell's.

 

[allstonite]

Criticizing a union for being a union? A union that he was a leader of at one point. Is he just trying to make this a story and turn the public against Brady for going to court when he inevitably does?

 

[Reverend]

That's the most impressive concentration of illogic and tone deafness I've seen in some time.

 
I think it's worse. I mean, it's an old ethical argument that has a kind of infinite regression that eventually calls into question all your expenditures and decisions in life in asking if you could not perhaps being doing more good in the world, where the answer is basically always, technically, "Yes."
 
It is exactly not the sort of argument top executives at the NFL league office want to be raising, as it is a light that shines equally harshly on all parties. I mean, how much does Goodell make again, and what does he do with his time and money?

 

[Buster Olney the Lonely]

This sort of signals a shift in the deflategate story, doesn't it? We're well into the comedy phase now. 

That might as well have been an article in The Onion. 

 

[nighthob]

Criticizing a union for being a union? A union that he was a leader of at one point. Is he just trying to make this a story and turn the public against Brady for going to court when he inevitably does?

 
Better still, a union he defrauded after they removed him from his position (and mostly for doing the NFL's bidding). 

 

[mandro ramtinez]

The value of Brady staying silent while the appeal process plays out has never been more clear.  Vincent seemed to have no problem with the NFL asserting all of its authority in this dispute.  It's embarrassing for him to say that it is suspect for the other side to pursue all available options just as vigorously.

 

[ElcaballitoMVP]

"Wouldn't it be better to spend our time and resources on the issues that are vital to our players -- past, present and future -- such as the players' total wellness and growing the game together?"
 
This right here is gold. Coming from a league that for years (decades?) ignored player safety concerns such as concussions, now it's Tom Brady's fault for spending his own money to defend his name instead of focusing on "growing the game together". And it's Rice's and AP's fault for defending themselves against punishments that went against the collective bargaining agreement? Piss off. 
 
He should've just come out and said "We deserve to have final say in all matters. Common sense, the CBA and the right to a fair trial be damned. And you should be ashamed for trying to defend yourself when you feel you've been wronged." 
 
Edit: TB may not be spending his own money, as pointed out below. I'll correct my mistake so this doesn't take off on it's own for no reason (see how easy that was Mort?)

 

[dcmissle]

That would be a plaintiff wail. Oh, please stop this train bringing us to the slaughterhouse.

I hope this is not dignified with a response, and expect it won't be.

 

[natpastime162]

"Somebody has to protect the integrity of the game," Vincent said. "That's my responsibility, to protect and preserve the competitive fairness of professional football. That's why our game is so great, because we protect the integrity of the game."

 
Goodell and Vincent are kindred spirits.
 
 
This is not Vincent's first time.
 
It would be different if I thought he and his message were sincere, but every single occassion (appeals, underclassman, domestic violence, etc.) is smothered in the stink of protecting the shield's bottomline.
 
p.s. I keep hearing "Strangers in the Night" whenever I read about Goodell and Vincent.

 

[Bleedred]

Is it true that Mortenson has never commented up on his original erroneous sourced report of 11 of 12 balls being 2 psi under 12.5?   Not a correction, mea cupla, apology or even an explanation of how he got it wrong (or thinks he got it right, but was somehow misled)?   I've read every post in this thread and googled it, and cannot find anything.  if not, can someone send me a way to contact him that isn't public (i.e.  don't want to post to twitter).

 

[TomRicardo]

Is it true that Mortenson has never commented up on his original erroneous sourced report of 11 of 12 balls being 2 psi under 12.5?   Not a correction, mea cupla, apology or even an explanation of how he got it wrong (or thinks he got it right, but was somehow misled)?   I've read every post in this thread and googled it, and cannot find anything.  if not, can someone send me a way to contact him that isn't public (i.e.  don't want to post to twitter).

 
I mean what is he going to say?  He got duped and now lost all the credibility he spent years building up?  Other reporters will bring that up every single time now he gets another scope. He will literally spend the rest of career with people saying "But it is Mort so take it with a grain of salt".  ESPN paid him to be the NFL's dupe.  Now he needs to just shut up and take the money.
 
ESPN has absolutely no reason to apologize for being dead wrong.  The sponsors don't care if they have integrity or not.  They care about eyeballs which is what they generate.  ESPN has been caught lying multiple times (Chad Ford changing his draft predictions) and nothing has happened.  These are the idiots that have funded the Jason Whitlock trainwreck for a year with nothing but stories on Gawker about the trainwreck to show for it.
 
Fact is ESPN is still the most convenient source of sports news.  Their infrastructure is far beyond any other news agency.  Well they aren't really a news agency.  They are sports entertainment agency like WWE.  But if you want a score or an injury report ESPN is still the number one source.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Is there any doubt this is going to court?

 

[Bleedred]

 
I mean what is he going to say?  He got duped and now lost all the credibility he spent years building up?  Other reporters will bring that up every single time now he gets another scope. He will literally spend the rest of career with people saying "But it is Mort so take it with a grain of salt".  ESPN paid him to be the NFL's dupe.  Now he needs to just shut up and take the money.
 
ESPN has absolutely no reason to apologize for being dead wrong.  The sponsors don't care if they have integrity or not.  They care about eyeballs which is what they generate.  ESPN has been caught lying multiple times (Chad Ford changing his draft predictions) and nothing has happened.  These are the idiots that have funded the Jason Whitlock trainwreck for a year with nothing but stories on Gawker about the trainwreck to show for it.
 
Fact is ESPN is still the most convenient source of sports news.  Their infrastructure is far beyond any other news agency.  Well they aren't really a news agency.  They are sports entertainment agency like WWE.  But if you want a score or an injury report ESPN is still the number one source.

That all may be true, I'm just really curious how he'd respond, if at all, to a thoughtful, non-accusatory request for an explanation.  I suspect he wouldn't respond, but I'm curious.

 

[Leather]

Is there any doubt this is going to court?

 
SeanBerry thinks you're a fool for thinking that it is.
 
EDIT: there is, of course, the possibility that Goodell is using this as a trial balloon to see if he could nail the landing here by wiping out TB's suspension in the name of "perspective" and making a donation of $1 Million that would have been spent in legal costs defending the suit to some ex-player charity.

 

[mwonow]

"Wouldn't it be better to spend our time and resources on the issues that are vital to our players -- past, present and future -- such as the players' total wellness and growing the game together?"
 
This right here is gold. Coming from a league that for years (decades?) ignored player safety concerns such as concussions, now it's Tom Brady's fault for spending his own money to defend his name instead of focusing on "growing the game together". And it's Rice's and AP's fault for defending themselves against punishments that went against the collective bargaining agreement? Piss off. 
 
He should've just come out and said "We deserve to have final say in all matters. Common sense, the CBA and the right to a fair trial be damned. And you should be ashamed for trying to defend yourself when you feel you've been wronged." 

 
To be fair, I believe Tom is spending the union's dough at this point, though I'm sure he has related bills coming his way as well.
 
But there's nothing "fair" about any of this. And than you for underlining the bolded. And with respect to the italicized, Vincent is like the stagehand Oz wishes he had to chase away the doggie...
 

 
Parenthetically, after a brief search for this image, I can confirm that the folks who post it are often as delusional as RG and TV themselves...

 

[Myt1]

Ashley Fox with her typical hard hitting questions in that interview.

 

[ifmanis5]

Is it true that Mortenson has never commented up on his original erroneous sourced report of 11 of 12 balls being 2 psi under 12.5?   Not a correction, mea cupla, apology or even an explanation of how he got it wrong (or thinks he got it right, but was somehow misled)?   I've read every post in this thread and googled it, and cannot find anything.  if not, can someone send me a way to contact him that isn't public (i.e.  don't want to post to twitter).

If he has, I haven't seen or heard it. 
 
In fact, since his Jan 20 article (here: http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12202450/nfl-says-new-england-patriots-had-inflated-footballs-afc-championship-game ) he's only written one item on the subject (here: http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/13129871/ted-wells-attend-tom-brady-suspension-appeal-hearing-nfl ) and it doesn't mention his own reporting or tweet.

 

[lambeau]

Small World: Judith Miller was let go by the NY Times after being similarly duped on weapons of mass destruction by Scooter Libby--who then turned for help to Ted Wells.

 

[Average Reds]

That all may be true, I'm just really curious how he'd respond, if at all, to a thoughtful, non-accusatory request for an explanation.  I suspect he wouldn't respond, but I'm curious.

 
I think you're missing the point of Ricardo's post - there is no such thing as a "thoughtful, non-accusatory request for an explanation" from Mortensen because he cannot give a response without damaging himself.
 
Giving up his source is not an option.  Hell, even admitting that he got played will cause him to lose access to the his NFL sources.  He can't double down, because the NFL itself has disavowed his reporting.  So he does nothing, because that's his least destructive course of action.
 
Unless someone does some real digging, it's unlikely that we'll ever learn anything about this.

 

[Bleedred]

 
I think you're missing the point of Ricardo's post - there is no such thing as a "thoughtful, non-accusatory request for an explanation" from Mortensen because he cannot give a response without damaging himself.
 
Giving up his source is not an option.  Hell, even admitting that he got played will cause him to lose access to the his NFL sources.  He can't double down, because the NFL itself has disavowed his reporting.  So he does nothing, because that's his least destructive course of action.
 
Unless someone does some real digging, it's unlikely that we'll ever learn anything about this.

Yes, fine.  Anyone have a way to contact him?

 

[Reverend]

Yes, fine.  Anyone have a way to contact him?

 
A couple of people have tried asking him on Facebook.
 
I know what you mean, though. I've been meaning to start a couple threads in other forums about how if you could ask and get a sincere answer to any question, what would you ask of whom? I can't decide on a P&G version or a V&N version though. But yeah, the desire to know what someone really thinks about a thing that is so mystifying can be very strong.

 

[Bleedred]

 
A couple of people have tried asking him on Facebook.
 
I know what you mean, though. I've been meaning to start a couple threads in other forums about how if you could ask and get a sincere answer to any question, what would you ask of whom? I can't decide on a P&G version or a V&N version though. But yeah, the desire to know what someone really thinks about a thing that is so mystifying can be very strong.

Thanks.  Someone asked on June 25th on his Facebook page, which it's not clear to me he reads.  It's pretty amazing that ESPN does not provide an email address or other way to contact him, even at the bottom of his posts.  Looks like this isn't going to happen any time soon.

 

[OCST]

Criticizing a union for being a union? A union that he was a leader of at one point. Is he just trying to make this a story and turn the public against Brady for going to court when he inevitably does?

 
Implicit, or maybe explict, in the criticism is that Smith and the NFL's outside counsel are wasting their clients' money on frivolous litigation - which, coming from the other side, is concern trolling of the worst kind.  "Hey union guys, look at all the money your lawyers are wasting!"
 
Assclown.

 

[Reverend]

 
Implicit, or maybe explict, in the criticism is that Smith and the NFL's outside counsel are wasting their clients' money on frivolous litigation - which, coming from the other side, is concern trolling of the worst kind.  "Hey union guys, look at all the money your lawyers are wasting!"
 
Assclown.

 
Money specifically being spent to prevent wrongful and arbitrary suspension and loss of salary, as though that's not something that would be in the interest of other union members.

 

[mandro ramtinez]

 
Implicit, or maybe explict, in the criticism is that Smith and the NFL's outside counsel are wasting their clients' money on frivolous litigation - which, coming from the other side, is concern trolling of the worst kind.  "Hey union guys, look at all the money your lawyers are wasting!"
 
Assclown.

Said while Vincent's boss is supposedly in the midst of a fresh, objective review of an appeal of punishment claimed to be handed down by Vincent.  

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

Meanwhile, in marriage between the stupid and the willfully ignorant, we have Vincent on ESPN criticizing the union for using the courts to appeal RG's (and his own) judgments.
 
Actually, I apologize, I came here with the idea of letting Vincent's stupid speak for itself: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13171906/nfl-vp-troy-vincent-criticizes-nflpa-spending-legal-action-challenging-roger-goodell-authority

Kinda disappointed that he couldnt work in "Won't someone please think about THE CHILDREN!"

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

What about the $5,000,000 the league spent investigating deflated footballs? What the hell is this imbecile talking about? I hope he's getting a cut of the head trauma settlement because he's clearly a victim.

 

[bankshot1]

 
Money specifically being spent to prevent wrongful and arbitrary suspension and loss of salary, as though that's not something that would be in the interest of other union members.

This.
 
Brady getting whacked for about $1.9 million for a rules violation on the book for ~$25k.
 
Sounds like money well spent.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Ashley Fox with her typical hard hitting questions in that interview.

 
Well, Ashley and Troy go way back:
 

One of my first days in there, a rookie offensive lineman walked in with a few teammates, saw me and said: “Bet you like seeing all of these swinging d—s in here, don’t you?”
 
The guys laughed. I didn’t. I had a choice: Say something, or say nothing.
 
The lockers to the right nearest me belonged to the defensive backs, including Brian Dawkins, Troy Vincentand Bobby Taylor, all established players. The lockers to the left nearest me belonged to the quarterbacks, including Donovan McNabb and A.J. Feeley.
In a raised voice, I said to the lineman: “If I wanted to see swinging d—s, I’d still be covering the Sixers.”
Boom.
 
I wasn’t trying to be crude. I was trying to stand my ground. The comment prompted laughter that was louder and no longer directed at me. Players were laughing at the lineman. Vincent stood up, walked over and told the rookie that he got what he deserved, that I was welcome in the locker room and that I was to be treated with respect and dignity. And that, mercifully, was that.

 
http://www.phillymag.com/news/2013/07/18/espns-ashley-fox-recalls-sexism-eagles-locker-room/

 

 

[Bleedred]

One of my closest college friends (Bates College) is from Columbia, MO and is a huge chiefs fan.  He's also a phd of Religion from the University of Chicago and is a professor at a university in Kansas City.  I sent him an email asking him for his take on the whole Deflategate situation, as he's a reasonable guy not living in the NY/NE corridor.   Incredible what the perception is:
 
"I have not read the report, but have only heard excerpts filtered through the press.
 
Three thoughts. First, I think the text messages between the equipment guys can only be explained by acknowledging that Brady actively sought to have these balls deflated and that he lied about it. On that score, I have no doubts after reading those texts.
 
Second, it's also quite clear that he's not the only QB in the NFL to have balls adjusted to his preference. So should we really care? That's up for debate.
 
Third, I think the most common sentiment in the hinterland (and it's a sentiment I share) is that the Patriot organization has a near pathological need to take any and every opportunity possible to gain an edge, and that this is simply one example of that pathological need. I say "pathological" because these efforts, that sometimes constitute cheating, appear to be totally unnecessary. For instance, Brady threw the ball better in the second half of the Ravens game when he was playing with fully inflated balls. The Patriots have succeed because Brady is a Hall of Fame QB, Belichick is a masterful tactician, and they've created a culture of winning with good players who establish a pattern for newcomers.
 
But that same masterful coach misattributes his success to things that have nothing to do with his success. His superstition, his interview personality, whatever stupid thing one wants to point to, are seen, along with pushing the boundaries of league rules, as part of the reason they win. And that magical thinking has been passed down to the rest of the locker room. (We saw it first hand in KC when Pioli tried to replicate the culture...only he was missing the HOF quarterback and the brilliant tactician coach...and shockingly, we weren't very good).
 
Truth is, nobody is talking about Brady much out here any more. Nobody thinks the Patriots won this year because they cheated. Most think the 4 game suspension was as much about the faux indignance and lack of cooperation in the investigation as anything else.
 
But that Brady was guilty as a MOFO, nobody doubts that. The texts make no sense without that being the case.
 
Cheating happens all the time in the NFL. But it doesn't lead to Super Bowl wins. The Pats deserve the credit for those wins. It would be nice if they didn't pull the indignation act when they're caught in violation of a rule. They were caught fair and square by another team looking for the same kind of edge...an edge that still sent the Ravens home disappointed."

 

[Ed Hillel]

I hope you didn't bother to respond with any kind of actual logic or reasoning. It would be a complete waste of your efforts. The Ravens? Seriously?

 

[Bleedred]

I hope you didn't bother to respond with any kind of actual logic or reasoning. It would be a complete waste of your efforts. The Ravens? Seriously?

He misidentified Colts for Ravens.  Believe me, he's not a mouthbreather.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I actually think thats a pretty reasonable response from a casual fan that hasn't stayed mired in the weeds with this case.

 

[Bleedred]

I actually think thats a pretty reasonable response from a casual fan that hasn't stayed mired in the weeds with this case.

I agree.  I did rebut his suggestion that the texts proved guilt....but on balance, it's a pretty fair representation of a fan who is intelligent and doesn't reflexively hate the Patriots.  For shits and giggles, I just asked him what he understood spygate to be.   

 

[JeffLedbetter]

Ashley Fox with her typical hard hitting questions in that interview.

Holy cow, THIS! I don't know that I've been as much in agreement about ESPN being the NFL's mouthpiece as the rest of you (and my apologies for that), but that Q&A was pure P.R. for the NFL, that is IT. It's embarrassing. There's no way that was even a real interview; those were questions submitted in writing and responded to in writing and posted. The idea that ESPN would conduct and then publish that "interview" at this particular moment shows that the NFL knows it can use that network like a newswire service to do its own bidding.

 

[lambeau]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/06/27/tom-brady-appeal-about-more-than-quarterback/ihhIAb6oJJdUrFS8V8w7uJ/story.html
 
Vincent seems to be trying to turn all the other players against TB (and AP and Rice). The NFL may feel that as Volin said Sunday, this case could be a "knockout punch" for Roger's authority.
 
So I think all the players are probably pretty psyched about that, as much as they don't mind the Pats taking hits. I'd guess the NFLPA membership hates Roger more than they resent TB.
 
Vincent can't change that.

 

[kolbitr]

I have a phd, and teach at a university outside of new England with dozens of similar folk who have a much less-nuanced take than that one. Sports tends to make people, even smart, rational people, stupid. So your friend deserves some kudos for a reasonable take.

I still think he's wrong about the texts, and could posit a number of more likely scenarios under which some minor "grubby behavior" took place ( to quote the great KenTremendous) on the part of the equipment guys, without necessarily indicating that Brady actually wanted the footballs below 12.5 psi. All signs indicate (to me) that he felt himself to be in combat with the refs who kept inflating balls to the high end of the spectrum--or absurdly higher, as apparently happened in the Jets game...if only someone had educated him (or the mutt and Jeff twits who handled the pigskin) as to the nature of the Ideal gas Law he might have avoided all this, and realized that nature would take care of his worries without the dinkheads' greasy paws mucking about.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/06/27/tom-brady-appeal-about-more-than-quarterback/ihhIAb6oJJdUrFS8V8w7uJ/story.html
 
Vincent seems to be trying to turn all the other players against TB (and AP and Rice). The NFL may feel that as Volin said Sunday, this case could be a "knockout punch" for Roger's authority.
 
So I think all the players are probably pretty psyched about that, as much as they don't mind the Pats taking hits. I'd guess the NFLPA membership hates Roger more than they resent TB.
 
Vincent can't change that.

 
Well if the NFL wants to avoid the knockout punch for Roger's authority they have a very easy out at hand.  Just remove the suspension, hold firm to the team penalties and boom!  No court battle, Roger continues to be big dick slanging Roger during the next issue.
 
That the NFL is trying to have it both ways, keep Roger's power without making any concession to the union through Brady is the least surprising part of this whole ordeal.  The hubris from the NFL office is reaching never before seen levels of douche-baggery.  I can't tell you how much I am going to enjoy Roger's fall when it eventually comes. 

 

[djbayko]

Said while Vincent's boss is supposedly in the midst of a fresh, objective review of an appeal of punishment claimed to be handed down by Vincent.  

Goodell is actually reviewing his own punishment. Vincent merely served as his secretary. Roger didn't feel like typing that day or something.

 

[mandro ramtinez]

Goodell is actually reviewing his own punishment. Vincent merely served as his secretary. Roger didn't feel like typing that day or something.

A federal district court judge's clerk would have the good sense not to chirp about the case while the opinion he wrote is under review.  That good sense does not seem abundant at 345 Park Avenue.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out what this means:
 

But that same masterful coach misattributes his success to things that have nothing to do with his success. His superstition, his interview personality, whatever stupid thing one wants to point to, are seen, along with pushing the boundaries of league rules, as part of the reason they win. And that magical thinking has been passed down to the rest of the locker room.

 
When has Bill Belichick ever attributed anything to his success? He doesn't even like talking about it, at least not publicly. He may say a few "thanks," but his attitude is almost always to look forward to the future. Any success the team has he almost always credits to everyone but himself. I don't get it.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

We keep referencing Roger's fall but, really, why would it be any time soon? He just weathered some pretty shitty PR hits and NFL popularity is soaring. I really have no idea what it would take to get him removed from his position. I see his contract being re-upped indefinitely.

 
I do not think the fall is imminent nor will it be tied to Deflategate.  But I do believe that he is a ticking time bomb that will eventually go pop.  There is a general sense of arrogance from the NFL office that, at least to me, feels like it could easily lead to some future issue snowballing out of the NFL's control and lead to the head being chopped off.  I don't think we will get a mega-illegal FIFA like ending, but I think a day will come where the NFL will bite off more then they can chew or the dirty inner workings be exposed in a manner that ends Roger.

 

[lambeau]

Maybe what absolute power corrupts most is judgement-- if there are no checks and balances you don't really have to ask, how will this go over? Is this reasonable? Is this fair? Is this just?
I think the League may have negotiated for itself a degree of power which it can't handle, and end up hoist on its own petard..