#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[Reverend]

 
The part that you're responding to here was this:  "Goodell could issue any punishment he wants to a team for anything he wants and the team has absolutely no recourse, even if there's no real evidence anything happened."
 
So the "law of the shop" is irrelevant, as is the NFLPA, when it comes to punishments related to the team.  
 
I do get that the ruling that I cited (thanks to dcmissle) would apply to a player taking a ruling to court and not a team, so what I should have said was that this whole episode is telling me....XYZ.  

 
Ah, my bad--I missed the "to the team" part.
 
The team as an organization is not subject to the CBA, so that's an entirely different legal issue and area to which I'm pretty sure that ruling does not apply.
 
For Kraft to file a team grievance in court, I believe it would have to concern a violation under the owners' agreement which, as I understand it, is very restrictive of his rights and, as I've read in a couple of places, he himself may have violated with that Context website stunt.

 

[dcmissle]

Yes, the team is an entirely different kettle of fish, which is why we've tried to keep the discussions separate.
 
If you examine the NFL Constitution and Bylaws you will not even find a right of appeal for a team or owner.  Now there have been appeals in the past.  Most recently, the Cowboys and Redskins appealed their salary cap penalties for allegedly violating the uncapped year rules.  That went to an arbitrator, who affirmed the League decision.
 
As far as court recourse is concerned, you are pretty much screwed unless the underlying violation by the NFL violates the law in some very serious way that private parties cannot negotiate away.  For example, owners cannot contract out of antitrust liability.
 
But you know this going in, when you buy the team, as a billionaire.

 

[ivanvamp]

Yes, the team is an entirely different kettle of fish, which is why we've tried to keep the discussions separate.
 
If you examine the NFL Constitution and Bylaws you will not even find a right of appeal for a team or owner.  Now there have been appeals in the past.  Most recently, the Cowboys and Redskins appealed their salary cap penalties for allegedly violating the uncapped year rules.  That went to an arbitrator, who affirmed the League decision.
 
As far as court recourse is concerned, you are pretty much screwed unless the underlying violation by the NFL violates the law in some very serious way that private parties cannot negotiate away.  For example, owners cannot contract out of antitrust liability.
 
But you know this going in, when you buy the team, as a billionaire.

Which is why Kraft did what he did. There was simply no real recourse for him.

DC and no Rev, do you guys think Brady's legal case - on the process - is a sound and compelling one?

 

[dcmissle]

It certainly is sound, and I like it better than the NFL's case based on my limited knowledge. But nothing is 100%.

We're getting so late in the day on this that if I were representing the NFL I would stipulate that no penalty needs to be served before a final ruling on the merits. TB is very likely to win a PI. Why start your case with a loss? Concede that, and appear reasonable.

 

[Blundatola]

It would seem quite the change of course for the NFL to want to appear reasonable!

 

[dcmissle]

Here is the problem from the NFL's standpoint:

1. It has no risk of irreparable harm -- Brady has tons.

2. The balance of hardships -- another major factor for injunctive relief -- weighs heavily in Brady's favor.

The public interest tilts in neither direction in this case.

The only thing left is likelihood of ultimate success on the merits. Brady shows anything on this, and injunction should follow as night does day.

This is a loser's hand for the NFL on the PI. The longer this drags out, the worse it gets on that aspect of the case.

 

[nighthob]

edits necessitated by sucky phone typing skills. Sorry

You should have caught my post this morning from the phone while I was talking. That one was a full frontal honky disaster zone.

As a question, could the judge that hears this find the process tainted (thanks to the leaks about other owners interference) and send the whole thing back to the NFL for a hearing before a neutral arbitrator? And would that arbitrator be able to go back to the start and hear/request everything?

 

[lambeau]

Question: Doty says he can't correct even 'serious error' by an arbitrator, but he does refer on  page 16 to his ability to determine if 'fundamental fairness' has been violated--in which category is basing a decision on junk science?

 

[lambeau]

Tom E. Curran just reported 1) he is certain no deal will be reached and 2) NFL measurements this season will investigate  whether  the Ideal Gas Law does indeed exist.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

Wonderful - the Ennufful still doesn't believe in science

One day the full story will be known and recounted clearly by maybe Sally Jenkins and maybe some normally intelligent people will read it and realize the insanity that this so-called "deflate gate" actually is

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

For a game that involves a substantial amount of trying to negotiate, time, and account for gravity, its stewards certainly don't seem to have a particularly Newtonian sensibility.

 

[soxhop411]

ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk  39s39 seconds ago
Irsay: I have not talked to Goodell about Deflategate since January http://wp.me/p14QSB-9Onn 

 

[TomTerrific]

Ok, rumor time. Comes from a friend whose brother is in the NFLPA.

NFL made a joint offer to Brady and the NFLPA last Friday at 430pm. The offer was contingent on both accepting it, obviously. Terms were:

1) Brady suspension completely wiped out to be replaced by a $50K fine. "Statement of exoneration" to also be provided clearing Brady of any involvement, fine is for non-cooperation

2) NFLPA to agree that in the subsequent CBA all requests by the Commissioner for information in any investigation shall be met with full and complete cooperation by the players or their representatives

That's what I was told. Also told that the NFLPAs interpretation of this was that it was a wedge offer destined to separate Brady from the NFLPA, and delivered at a time and place to make it likely that Brady would have ample time to talk with his people before the NFLPA could weigh in. (This last part I'm a little skeptical of, but it's what I was told)

So, I'm not a lawyer and neither is my friend. Does this make any sense to anybody here with some legal insight?

 

[DJnVa]

That would be Brady selling out the union. I'm not sure that's the way he wants to play this.

 

[djbayko]

Ok, rumor time. Comes from a friend whose brother is in the NFLPA.

NFL made a joint offer to Brady and the NFLPA last Friday at 430pm. The offer was contingent on both accepting it, obviously. Terms were:

1) Brady suspension completely wiped out to be replaced by a $50K fine. "Statement of exoneration" to also be provided clearing Brady of any involvement, fine is for non-cooperation

2) NFLPA to agree that in the subsequent CBA all requests by the Commissioner for information in any investigation shall be met with full and complete cooperation by the players or their representatives

That's what I was told. Also told that the NFLPAs interpretation of this was that it was a wedge offer destined to separate Brady from the NFLPA, and delivered at a time and place to make it likely that Brady would have ample time to talk with his people before the NFLPA could weigh in. (This last part I'm a little skeptical of, but it's what I was told)

So, I'm not a lawyer and neither is my friend. Does this make any sense to anybody here with some legal insight?

I hope this is true and I hope it leaks. By offering exoneration for a concession in the CBA, they are implicitly admitting that this process is not about the truth - Brady's innocence / guilt. If they are willing to make that offer, then an honest arbitrator should be comfortable exonerating Brady without the concession.

 

[Buster Olney the Lonely]

Tom E. Curran just reported 1) he is certain no deal will be reached and 2) NFL measurements this season will investigate  whether  the Ideal Gas Law does indeed exist.

Sweet! Maybe next year they can investigate Bernoulli's Principle.

 

[TomTerrific]

I hope this is true and I hope it leaks. By offering exoneration for a concession in the CBA, they are implicitly admitting that this process is not about the truth - Brady's innocence / guilt. If they are willing to make that offer, then an honest arbitrator should be comfortable exonerating Brady without the concession.

Well, in part that's why I'm asking for some more learned opinion. This strikes me as a clever offer in that it gets rid of the court case while upping RGs standing both with the owners and the "get tough" crowd. Put another way, it threads the needle.

However, would the NFL be putting something at risk by merely making this offer? In which case I can't believe they would do that.

 

[DJnVa]

However, would the NFL be putting something at risk by merely making this offer? In which case I can't believe they would do that.

 
It's the NFL--of course they'd possibly fuck something up.

 

[dcmissle]

It is an extraordinarily clever offer. To turn DF into 2 draft picks and this major concession by the union? Lol.

And calculated to drive a wedge between Brady and the Union, Brady and every other NFL player, and Bob Kraft/BB and Brady.

 

[Sportsbstn]

It is an extraordinarily clever offer. To turn DF into 2 draft picks and this major concession by the union? Lol.

And calculated to drive a wedge between Brady and the Union, Brady and every other NFL player, and Bob Kraft/BB and Brady.

 
You really think Brady would be pushing the union to accept those terms?  

 

[garzooma]

Are you going to say that it's hard for you to believe that the judge will be ruling on procedure rather than evidence?  This has been addressed over and over in this (and the other) thread.  I think there were some of our learned lawyerly posters who felt that if a judge thought that the case was ruled incorrectly to begin with it might it (psychologically?) easier to rule against the NFL on procedural grounds but that's about all I can recall.

 
I think what makes it hard to believe (at least for me anyway), is that common sense says that evidence would inform how you would rule on procedure.  If Goodell announced that following procedure, he determined that Brady turned him into a newt, and we could see full well that Goodell had not been turned into a newt, one would think that that would be the first thing you'd bring up in arguing that there was something wrong with the procedure.  Oh well, it is what it is.

 

[Devizier]

Sweet! Maybe next year they can investigate Bernoulli's Principle.

they should tske John Madden precautions just to be safe.

 

[ifmanis5]

Tom E. Curran just reported 1) he is certain no deal will be reached and 2) NFL measurements this season will investigate  whether  the Ideal Gas Law does indeed exist.

RG will find a way to fuck that up, too.

 

[Super Nomario]

Ok, rumor time. Comes from a friend whose brother is in the NFLPA.

NFL made a joint offer to Brady and the NFLPA last Friday at 430pm. The offer was contingent on both accepting it, obviously. Terms were:

1) Brady suspension completely wiped out to be replaced by a $50K fine. "Statement of exoneration" to also be provided clearing Brady of any involvement, fine is for non-cooperation

2) NFLPA to agree that in the subsequent CBA all requests by the Commissioner for information in any investigation shall be met with full and complete cooperation by the players or their representatives

That's what I was told. Also told that the NFLPAs interpretation of this was that it was a wedge offer destined to separate Brady from the NFLPA, and delivered at a time and place to make it likely that Brady would have ample time to talk with his people before the NFLPA could weigh in. (This last part I'm a little skeptical of, but it's what I was told)

So, I'm not a lawyer and neither is my friend. Does this make any sense to anybody here with some legal insight?

I don't get it. Brady is already being punished for non-compliance, so presumably the league already expects full and complete cooperation. What's going to happen the next time a player doesn't cooperate? Is the league going to just cry, "You can't do that!"
 

This is a loser's hand for the NFL on the PI. The longer this drags out, the worse it gets on that aspect of the case.

It ain't a loser's hand if you don't mind losin' (that should be a country lyric if it isn't already). An injunction let the league stand tough but still lets one of their marquee players be available for the high profile season opener. You think the sponsors are stoked for Jimmy Garoppolo on opening night?

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Tremendous article by Dan Wetzel.
 
Here's the opening snippet.
 
 
 
 
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-s-first-sound-move-since-deflate-gate-could-make-its-punishment-of-tom-brady--pats-look-laughable-183355728.html

 
Oh good. Now when the balls are measured at ~13.0 psi during halftime and after the game everyone will scream "cheatriots" - fully neglecting the fact that it's 75 degrees outside.
 
Then again, considering the accuracy of those gauges, the readings will probably vary from 9.0 psi to 28.5 psi.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

 
Oh good. Now when the balls are measured at ~13.0 psi during halftime and after the game everyone will scream "cheatriots" - fully neglecting the fact that it's 75 degrees outside.
 
Then again, considering the accuracy of those gauges, the readings will probably vary from 9.0 psi to 28.5 psi.

 
They've been screaming Cheatriots for 7 years now, what's the difference at this point?

 

[DJnVa]

I think plenty of football writers out there have (Florio, Wetzel, even King) have said enough about the cold weather influencing the balls that I really don't think anyone will accept September readings from Miami as being the same as December readings from NE.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Curran with another outstanding piece.

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/what-allegiance-should-the-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-have-to-the-nfl

 

[accidentalsuccess]

I still think it ends up being the cash equivalent of a 2-game suspension for non-cooperation, his guilt dismissed by Goodell on "looked me in the eye, I can tell his soul is pure" grounds.
 
Brady/NFLPA then takes it to court, but the scope of the court process is much more limited because it's "just money", which should (?) avoid entangling the other owners.
 
Fine gets vacated/returned to NFL due to lack of precedent/"law of shop", and Brady ultimately pays $100k or so for non-cooperation only.
 
zero suspension served, general (of not complete) exoneration of malfeasance, some fine upheld.

This is basically the same as my guess as to how this plays out.  Plenty of room for the whole thing to get even more surreal but I do think that eventually this will happen after exhausting all other options.

 

[Reverend]

Ok, rumor time. Comes from a friend whose brother is in the NFLPA.
NFL made a joint offer to Brady and the NFLPA last Friday at 430pm. The offer was contingent on both accepting it, obviously. Terms were:
1) Brady suspension completely wiped out to be replaced by a $50K fine. "Statement of exoneration" to also be provided clearing Brady of any involvement, fine is for non-cooperation
2) NFLPA to agree that in the subsequent CBA all requests by the Commissioner for information in any investigation shall be met with full and complete cooperation by the players or their representatives
That's what I was told. Also told that the NFLPAs interpretation of this was that it was a wedge offer destined to separate Brady from the NFLPA, and delivered at a time and place to make it likely that Brady would have ample time to talk with his people before the NFLPA could weigh in. (This last part I'm a little skeptical of, but it's what I was told)
So, I'm not a lawyer and neither is my friend. Does this make any sense to anybody here with some legal insight?

If I'm not mistaken, #2 is literally impossible. This gets back to not parsingboutbthings which are separate,--I think, anyway.

The next CBA negotiation is just that--a negotiation--and nothing done now can be binding upon it, by definition. It is a new deal, a thing unto itself.

As always, though, I will listen to correction. Lawyers?

 

[Reverend]

Curran with another outstanding piece.
http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/what-allegiance-should-the-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-have-to-the-nfl

Blurbs to indicate what the pieces linked to about are strongly encouraged.

We're getting more straight links lately. Less good. Blurbs! Give the people a taste.

 

[wilked]

Today is Pedro's day. I don't want to hear a shred of news from nfl offices

 

[loshjott]

Adam Kilgore in the Washington Post, who has written some fairly critical articles about Brady's actions re DFG, today had this to say: NFL’s post-DeflateGate rule changes undermine league’s punishment of Tom Brady
 

The NFL has quietly added another layer of absurdity to the DeflateGate ordeal, which is now lumbering into its seventh month of existence with no clear endpoint established. In one move, the NFL managed to both overreact to the controversy and further undermine its shaky case against New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady. After a half-year of missteps, in the midst of an endless charade, the league found one more way to mangle the case.
 
...some stuff about the rule changes on ball pressure....
 
The new rule changes only further damage the NFL’s public stance and make the harshness of the original punishment look silly. The league will have to explain why it felt strongly enough about air pressure to suspend Brady, but not so strongly about it that it bothered to make or regularly enforce strict guidelines before this incident. It doesn’t make any sense, except in the context of how the NFL has operated under Goodell, just guessing and making it up as it goes along.
 

 

[grsharky7]

Adam Kilgore in the Washington Post, who has written some fairly critical articles about Brady's actions re DFG, today had this to say: NFL’s post-DeflateGate rule changes undermine league’s punishment of Tom Brady
 

Good to see more national media jumping on the RG doesn't know shit bandwagon

 

[Ed Hillel]

Schefter just said the league is keeping it at 4 games. Just announce it already, Roger.

 

[BelichickFan]

Schefter just said the league is keeping it at 4 games. Just announce it already, Roger.

 
Mark Daniels ‏@MarkDanielsPJ 2m2 minutes ago
On ESPN, @AdamSchefter said the NFL doesn't feel "inclined to budge much" on Brady's appeal. He expects the suspension to stay at 4 games.

 

[jsinger121]

Schefter just said the league is keeping it at 4 games. Just announce it already, Roger.

 
See you in court. 

 

[Salem's Lot]

Schefter just said the league is keeping it at 4 games. Just announce it already, Roger.

 
This is all bullshit designed to leverage a deal out of Brady. Goodell is not going to announce a ruling because he doesn't have to yet. This waiting game is all about the league trying to maintain their negotiating position and keep it out of court. Can Brady get an injunction now? or can Goodell just wait this out and uphold the four game suspension 30 minutes before the opener if he wants to?

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

 
This is all bullshit designed to leverage a deal out of Brady. Goodell is not going to announce a ruling because he doesn't have to yet. This waiting game is all about the league trying to maintain their negotiating position and keep it out of court. Can Brady get an injunction now? or can Goodell just wait this out and uphold the four game suspension 30 minutes before the opener if he wants to?

 
The lawyers have said stalling on purpose for leverage can be used against the NFL. 

 

[OnWisc]

<p> 
Mark Daniels ‏@MarkDanielsPJ 2m2
link to tweet minutes ago
On ESPN, @AdamSchefter said the NFL doesn't feel "inclined to budge much" on Brady's appeal. He expects the suspension to stay at 4 games.

So after spending $5mm and half a year gathering and reviewing information, the NFL's decision process boils down to whether Goodell's "inclined to budge." If that's the case, I reckon that after carefully considering his legal options, Brady's fixin' to go to court.

 

[OnWisc]

 
The lawyers have said stalling on purpose for leverage can be used against the NFL. 

I don't think the NFL was stalling for leverage. I think they were taking their time to consider their possible choices, how each would be received by the various parties- including fans and owners- and what kind of cleanup each would require. I certainly don't think at any point over the last few months that Goodell's spent even one second thinking about whether Brady is actually guilty of anything or not.

I think they probably had it narrowed down to vacating entirely or upholding entirely quite some time ago, have since decided they're going to keep it at four games, and are just getting all their ducks in a row before the legal wrangling begins. Goodell and his minions have shown an utter inability to think on the fly, so I don't think it's much of a stretch to see them spending the last month or so straightening out their approach and getting everyone on the same page. IANAL, but if you have nothing to gain from a case, wouldn't you want as much time as possible to prepare for it before it actually got underway?

EDIT: I'm also of the option that the NFL wants Brady in that Pittsburgh game, but also wants to maximize the drama around it, so that's a side benefit to dragging this out. I'm sure if Goodell could time his ruling so that Brady would miss the first half but the injunction would come down in time for him to run out the tunnel for the second half, he'd do it.

 

[Ed Hillel]

@RealSkipBayless: Stephen A hearing Brady ruling coming down soon. Details at 10 am E ESPN2.

 

[bankshot1]

Brady's eyes failed him
 
damn
 
what a crock of shit

 

[loshjott]

The NFL declares war on one of its two most accomplished and recognized superstars, a guy with a totally unblemished record, for what? Essentially because the Colts and Ravens, abetted by the whiny media, hate Belichick.  It all comes back to Belichick. There's never been public griping against Brady or certainly not Kraft, the guy who "saved football" as his wife was dying, as Jeff Saturday said.
 
Belichick figures out ways to beat other teams, doesn't give a crap about anybody, and turned the Pats into a dynasty. Troy Vincent hates him, so do probably hundreds of others around the league, and now this.
 
It's madness.
 
As Theoden said, How did it come to this?

 

[drbretto]

This didn't happen because of the Colts or the Ravens. This happened because Goodell is a goddamn buffoon who's more interested in politics than running the NFL.

 

[AB in DC]

Ok, rumor time. Comes from a friend whose brother is in the NFLPA.

NFL made a joint offer to Brady and the NFLPA last Friday at 430pm. The offer was contingent on both accepting it, obviously. Terms were:

1) Brady suspension completely wiped out to be replaced by a $50K fine. "Statement of exoneration" to also be provided clearing Brady of any involvement, fine is for non-cooperation

2) NFLPA to agree that in the subsequent CBA all requests by the Commissioner for information in any investigation shall be met with full and complete cooperation by the players or their representatives

That's what I was told. Also told that the NFLPAs interpretation of this was that it was a wedge offer destined to separate Brady from the NFLPA, and delivered at a time and place to make it likely that Brady would have ample time to talk with his people before the NFLPA could weigh in. (This last part I'm a little skeptical of, but it's what I was told)

So, I'm not a lawyer and neither is my friend. Does this make any sense to anybody here with some legal insight?

 
If this is true, then the NFL knows they have no case against Brady and are just trying to salvage some kind of victory out of this mess.

 

[jsinger121]

Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin  5m5 minutes ago
Stephen A says on First Take that within the next 24-48 hours the NFL will announce that Brady's 4-game suspension will be upheld

 
Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin  3m3 minutes ago
Stephen A: "I'm hearing that Tom Brady actually destroyed his cell phone."

 

[RIrooter09]

 

Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin  5m5 minutes ago
Stephen A says on First Take that within the next 24-48 hours the NFL will announce that Brady's 4-game suspension will be upheld

 
Ben Volin ‏@BenVolin  3m3 minutes ago
Stephen A: "I'm hearing that Tom Brady actually destroyed his cell phone."
 

 
So when the bolded turns out to be untrue will ESPN issue a retraction?

 

[PeaceSignMoose]

Nice leak from the NFL to try to make Brady look like Aaron Hernandez.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

Tom Brady destroyed his cell phone why? Amazing.