#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
So in the NFL's world a their stance is 1) Admit Guilt 2) Lose at least one game 3) Reputation permanently ruined and especially in the court of NEP fans who refuse to believe our reports and evidence ? I mean how that can be considered "good faith" negotiations is beyond me.
Hopefully Berman will give them some serious nudging along the lines of " NFL the stance you are taking is completely devoid of past CBA support concerning both equipment violations for players and noncooperation. Change your position before you appear again. Bye"
Hopefully Berman will give them some serious nudging along the lines of " NFL the stance you are taking is completely devoid of past CBA support concerning both equipment violations for players and noncooperation. Change your position before you appear again. Bye"
If I'm innocent and I am Brady, that is the one non-negotiable point.jsinger121 said:
I can give on the size of a fine. If pushed hard, I can even give on games - even though some would view even one as an admission of guilt.
I do not provide any admission. If I didn't do anything, I am not going to say I did. Furthermore, such an admission validates all of the bad science and shoddy investigation - rendering all of the questions (and really everything but my admission of guilt) moot.
I would risk an adverse decision from the judge before going there. And I'd stick to my guns on this point if the judge telegraphed that he's prepared to rule against me.
riboflav said:
As opposed to every single other thing the NFL has done?
That makes perfect sense. Can you imagine the chest pounding if they get him to admit guilt? It takes all the ineptness and bias they've shown and washes it all away in one fell swoop.
I don't think the parties will settle because for the NFLPA (and Brady), anything other than a vacation will be a hollow victory. For the NFL, even if they lose, they can cling to their Wells report and say they lost on a technicality and talk about appealing it, blah blah blah and let this finally die as the season ramps up and nobody will care.
Section15Box113 said:
I agree and from a Legacy standpoint in New England and beyond if he goes down and the suspension is upheld but he continues to proclaim and express his innocence with science to back it up I can live with that as an NFL charade that will be exposed eventually. That organization has too many loose lips, and eventually Goodell will loose leverage and the truth will come out resulting in additional lawsuits IMO. It's a ticking time-bomb and one the owners should really consider dealing with sooner than later as they really shouldn't want to be tied to that idiot when he goes down.
At some point they will come to the rationalization that he's damaging the brand and a used car salesman could do his job better than he currently is and will cut bait, right now to me its a poor reflection on the ownership base that it hasn't happened with this being the 3rd strike and all. Predictions on how many more strikes it will take with the Jerry Jones's of the world, I'll set the over/under at 3.
Seems like the opening round of negotiations to me - I don't expect the NFL to give up the admission of guilt until really pushed. I don't agree with the decision or what they are doing, but from a tactical perspective, I can't see any reason for them to change their stance since they "won" in the lower Court.
I am actually more hopeful after seeing this information on a settlement.
I am actually more hopeful after seeing this information on a settlement.
Entirely unacceptable and something that is likely to greatly annoy Berman, particularly with RG's decision standing as the last written word on the subject in the event of a settlement.
This is not negotiating in good faith. It is trying to kill your opponent, which is what settlements are NOT about.
This is not negotiating in good faith. It is trying to kill your opponent, which is what settlements are NOT about.
And now that their position is out in public they are going to cling to it more tightly. Hope the pencil is sharpened up--Berman is going to have to write.
What does "accept Wells report" even mean? Certainly Brady could say, "I accept that Wells believes I did something wrong, even though I know I didn't." That wouldn't really help anyone.
I'm guessing the NFL's insistence that Brady "accept" the Wells report is about Roger proving to the owners that the $5+ million spent on the report was worth it. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the owners are privately questioning the money spent on Wells, particularly now that a growing contingency of media is beginning to hammer the independence/conclusion of the report. At the end of the day, it's always about money.
Michael McCann @McCannSportsLaw 10m10 minutes ago
Michael McCann retweeted Chris Mortensen
Brady can't accept Wells Report in settlement since his testimony refutes it. If this is NFL's best offer, no deal.
Michael McCann added,
Chris Mortensen @mortreport
NFL position Tuesday during "settlement" talks with Tom Brady was he would have to "accept Wells Report." Unacceptable for Brady & NFLPA
6 retweets4 favorites
Stephanie Stradley @StephStradley 9m9 minutes ago
NFL's settlement posture more appropriate for a criminal plea of guilty. Not a disputed disciplinary process. NFL's position is a fat joke.
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 9m9 minutes ago
Could ask Brady about why equip. assistants weren't at appeal. Could ask Goodell if ANY limits on his CBA power; Wells relationship.
0 retweets0 favorites
Michael McCann retweeted Chris Mortensen
Brady can't accept Wells Report in settlement since his testimony refutes it. If this is NFL's best offer, no deal.
Michael McCann added,
Chris Mortensen @mortreport
NFL position Tuesday during "settlement" talks with Tom Brady was he would have to "accept Wells Report." Unacceptable for Brady & NFLPA
6 retweets4 favorites
Stephanie Stradley @StephStradley 9m9 minutes ago
NFL's settlement posture more appropriate for a criminal plea of guilty. Not a disputed disciplinary process. NFL's position is a fat joke.
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 9m9 minutes ago
Could ask Brady about why equip. assistants weren't at appeal. Could ask Goodell if ANY limits on his CBA power; Wells relationship.
0 retweets0 favorites
They want him to accept the conclusions that JJ and JM were running a deflation scheme and that he was aware of it. Whether or not the WR actually proved any of it is completely separate.AB in DC said:
And they want him to admit that lied under oath and hope some Jets Fan DA decides to prosecute him.
So basically, Wells report said it was more probable than not that he was generally aware. League read that and suspended him 4 games. Upon appeal, Rog upheld the suspension but added language that Brady was an active participant since he destroyed his phoneHoya81 said:
Now they want him to accept the Wells report finding of "generally aware"?
BroodsSexton said:
+1. To repeat my thought ad naseum, this is as close as I can imagine to an unsettleable case.
It would be hilarious if the Judge walked in and said "Well Roger according to my twitter feed you are doing your damndest to make this case even more unsettleable than it already was. The court frowns upon your actions and will rule accordingly if you don't smarten up quick."
cshea said:
Accept it all and in return we'll reduce the penalty to ?? May not be good faith but it is negotiation. What if the NFL's offer is "accept it all and we'll reduce the penalty to just a fine?" Brady likely will (and IMO should) reject it, but it is a negotiation.
Again, I can't figure out why anyone from the NFL would leak anything to the press today. The judge told you to keep your mouth shut and negotiate in good faith. So, an hour before you go before that judge, you go on record with the WWL that the negotiations start and end with "Accept the entirety of our argument and maybe we can settle."
The hubris is genuinely fascinating.
The hubris is genuinely fascinating.
Goodell's perspective might be that he can't lose. He has ignored science, logic, and facts through the whole process and the majority of the public still thinks the Pats cheated. If they lose in court, he can fall back on the Wells Report and continue to claim Brady cheated. He's fucked up multiple situations like this in the past and suffered no consequences as a result. The vast majority of fans aren't following this closely so the facts about the lying and unethical behavior by him and league aren't really hurting them. The outrage of one fanbase and a handful of writers is a small price to pay. It's only if the owners have had enough and take him out that he loses. Based on the past and the jealousy and hate that other teams obviously have for the Pats, I don't see that happening.
Exactly. This case was never a good candidate for settlement. Neither party cares about monetary cost, and the pie they actually care about can't be sliced. The 4 games are almost a red herring: they're an effect of the adjudication of the issue that matters, not the issue that matters.drleather2001 said:
I think the only way this gets settled is if NFLPA becomes convinced that they are going to get trounced, and even then, maybe only if the NFL doesn't smell the same blood in the water.
Seabass177 said:
No one should think that the NFL actually cares about a just outcome here. Hell, I would argue that they don't care about the outcome at all; they just care about being perceived as taking a hard line against what can be broadly defined as "player misconduct." It may be true that including Brady in this was a titanic mistake the NFL, but they are now dug in and cannot back down.
In summary, they are leaking because they don't care about the court case. They need the public to know that there will be no settlement without Brady accepting the power of the commissioner's office to discipline him. If their action causes Berman to vacate the suspension, they simply move to the next step. But that's fine, because this was never about Brady in the first place.
Average Reds said:
At this point, the NFL's primary concern is demonstrating to potential future player-litigants "Even if you win the legal case, we will trash your reputation and make this something that you, your fans, and your family will have to talk about for the rest of your life. Just submit from the get-go and save yourself the trouble."
It's totally fucked, but that's their play.
Average Reds said:
I think this is exactly right. Goodell doesn't give two shits about whether Brady plays week one. He's just trying to maintain his tough guy bullshit. As I wondered during all of the other fiascos under his watch, how the owners continue to support this idiot running their league is a total mystery. If nothing else, they should be worried about what happens if the next player that enters Roger's cross hairs is one of their own.
Seabass177 said:
Are we sure that the NFL leaked this? If that really was their position and I'm Yee I just might let it go out.
An important thing--one you've got to assume the Judge understands--is that the reputational costs of an admission of guilt by Brady or an admission of idiocy by the NFL is infinitely more important than 4 games.
EDIT: Also Brady would be admitting to perjury if he now said the Wells report was right, so that's not happening.
Average Reds said:
Agreed on everything you said about them caring about outcomes and this all being about perception, but where's the benefit of this particular leak right now? Public perception on this is fairly well set -- either you think Brady is a nasty cheater or you think the NFL's headquarters are located inside an active volcano. Leaking this right now isn't changing anyone's opinion of the case. The only thing it's going to do is piss off the only person whose opinion matters right now. It's chutzpah for chutzpah's sake.
Edit --
To Shelterdog, I am making an assumption that the NFL leaked this. I think it's a fair assumption because it went to Mort and ESPN is running with it as their top story right now. If ESPN is shouting it out, then the NFL is the most likely party to have requested said shouting, based on everything we've seen thus far.
This is where I'm at now. The NFL is so deep on this, that they can't back down. Leak stories, remain intractable, and let the court make its ruling. RG can claim he was protecting the integrity of the league, never wavered in his beliefs and will take it to the next level. He maintains his tough guy image.Average Reds said:
Even then, he "loses" having collected over $300 million in compensation. He cannot lose.Stu Nahan said:
Seabass177 said:
There's a lot of people who think both.
Unfortunately, I agree with Fox and I think the judge is going to rule that, if Brady got screwed, it's because of a bad CBA and it's not the judge's business to change that.
NYDN Sports I-Team @NYDNSportsITeam 45m45 minutes ago
Roger Goodell just arrived at US Courthouse -- to a chorus of boos --for #Deflategate hearing
Roger Goodell just arrived at US Courthouse -- to a chorus of boos --for #Deflategate hearing
jacklamabe65 said:
That's just a bunch of confused Jets fans who think he's going to court on behalf of Geno.
Seabass177 said:
I don't think the NFL cares about Berman's opinion. They care about maintaining their posture of righteous indignation.
norm from cheers said:
Deflated football hats outside courthouse..
Just a reminder how dumb this whole thing is. Wilson says the balls are at an optimum when psi is set to 12.5 to 13.5, so that's what the NFL puts in the rules. Anything over or under that doesn't give a competitive advantage; according to Wilson, it is a competitive disadvantage. If the psi in the balls was 0.0 then the Pats might have won like 140-0, right?
Edit: the "reminder" to me was seeing the deflated ball hats - yup, what an advantage it would be to use balls inflated to that level!
tims4wins said:
What I love about the "a deflated football is an advantage" argument is that the next logical step would be to assert that when the refs filled the Patriots' balls up to 16 PSI for the Jets game, the officials put the teams on a different playing field, which would mean the NFL actively participated in influencing the result of a game.
How about this settlement offer from the Brady camp: fine, no suspension, no admission of guilt, and the NFL accepts Brady's sworn testimony.
Average Reds said:
I agree with your last few posts and it ties into my tin foil hat theory for this all. I'm wondering if the NFL has intentionally set an insanely high original suspension knowing the appeals process would be able to get dragged out throughout the offseason. It being Tom Brady and the Patriots they knew this would dominate the headlines. I don't know that they knew it would go this long or they would have this much of a chance to win. The NFL were willing to take a loss in a court case on this as a cost of doing business. Throw Goodell out there to look like a moron and keep the story alive because that's what the money is for.
How much of a national story beyond the original headlines have Hardy, Aldon Smith, Sheldon Richardson, etc been? The NFL was happy to have the country talking about something as dumb as deflated balls all summer rather than focus on the real crimes their players are committing like last summer. Again I'm not sure they knew it would go this far but they were happy to create a distraction and then keep it alive for 7 months.
Can Brady "accept" the Wells report by saying "Yes, based on the evidence here it is more probable than not that I was at least generally aware. Having said that, I know that I did nothing wrong. No contradiction here!"
Should also ask for the fee for the gaming license, which RG would put up personally.Eddie Jurak said:
Edit: Damn it, you win Loshjott....
Goodel: Accept the Well's Report as fact.
Brady: What?! I'll consider it when the NFL accepts my testimony as fact.
Goodell: Deal!
Brady: What?! I'll consider it when the NFL accepts my testimony as fact.
Goodell: Deal!
ivanvamp said:
The issue with any admission of guilt is actually bigger than his innocence. It's not "just" his reputation.
Because of the the "repeat offender" thing that Goodell is now applying, Brady would very much be on the hook for any little thing that might come up (with little proof) down the road. Some really minor infraction that would otherwise be a minor fine or something would become a bigger suspension. I mean, that's exactly what happened here, but if Brady officially "admits" his guilt on-record, it will be much easier to just stick him with "repeat offender" next time.
I know that people have mentioned the "it could happen to any player" issue, so the NFLPA and Brady are fighting that on principle.
But Brady also probably realizes that the next "any player" is probably going to be him.