#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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troparra

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allstonite said:
 
This is what I believe he means. Exponent just did what they were told and it is *somewhat* defensible. Wells is the one who gave them the garbage numbers in order to manipulate the result.
 
Well, you can use the assumption that the average of the Patriots' readings was 12.50. You cannot assume that each Patriots ball was at exactly 12.50 psi because this is literally impossible given the equipment alone.
 
As for Exponent, they are just as guilty as Wells for this mess. It's not a case of bad data ruining good scientific methodology.  The Exponent section of the report is riddled with bias, fake data, misleading statements, etc.
 

Bleedred

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Are we really revisiting the science of the Wells report?  I thought we had mercifully moved on from that (i.e. it's crap, we all know it's crap).
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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troparra said:
 
Well, you can use the assumption that the average of the Patriots' readings was 12.50. You cannot assume that each Patriots ball was at exactly 12.50 psi because this is literally impossible given the equipment alone.
 
As for Exponent, they are just as guilty as Wells for this mess. It's not a case of bad data ruining good scientific methodology.  The Exponent section of the report is riddled with bias, fake data, misleading statements, etc.
 
Absolutely.  The core problem is terrible data, research design, and dubious assumptions.  But they did a huge amount of deceptive sleight-of-hand to shine that shit up, including not just examples of "ehhh, this is a semi-defensible decision among several options" but also just simple bad statistical practice.
 
One thing that bugs the hell out of me that never got that much attention (to my knowledge) is the decision to treat the data like they had 22 independent observations for the Patriots and 8 for the Colts.  There were only 11 Patriots balls and 4 Colts balls.  Just because they were measured twice doesn't multiply the number of balls.  This is like having a sample size of 5 people, asking each respondent about their intended vote choice 20 different times, and treating it like a sample of 100.
 
Even if you look past all the other shenanigans in this section (like assuming the balls were measured at the same time so not factoring in that the Colts' balls would have more time for their psi to rise, or assuming all the Pats balls started at 12.5 and the Colts balls at 13), the simple choice to treat this as a 30 ball sample completely drove the "findings."  If they do the reasonable thing, which is to say that they don't know which gauge was correct but they'll run the numbers separately for each gauge, then they find that its impossible to conclude that the differences in the Patriots and Colts balls were meaningful.  Because of course its fucking impossible with 15 closely clustered observations, including 4 in one group.
 

djbayko

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troparra said:
 
You can't accept the input data as valid.  That is the biggest trick Exponent played in this whole affair.   
 
We have no actual pressure measurements for the balls pregame.  This is a huge amount of uncertainty.  But Exponent ran their statistical analyses and based their conclusions on the assumption that the Patriots balls were at 12.50 psi.  Not the average of the balls, mind you,but the assumption that each ball was at exactly 12.50 psi.
 
Thus, there is no error included in any calculation they did that involved the starting pressures. 
 
Look at Table A-1 as an example of how they present such data.  
I know. I never said we should. I said Wells / Exponent did. Big difference.

The "if" in my post set up a hypothetical. That should have been clear from the first half of my post which talks about the input data being garbage. You left that part out of my quote for some reason.
 

jayhoz

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Forgive me if this has already been posted.
 
https://twitter.com/PatriotsLife/status/634413247249141761
 

Reverend

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MuppetAsteriskTalk said:
 
I'm not sure if the court will pay attention to this stuff or attribute it to the NFL being ESPN's puppet masters. It's all over for the NFL if the court is this engaged.
 
But I bet the leak about Brady willing to accept games probably caught the courts attention. (Assuming the leak is false, which is what I believe.) 
 
Edit: should we move this discussion outside of this thread? I'm afraid we're going to get yelled at.
 
 

Ed Hillel

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AB in DC said:
 
Wait, was that actually confirmed?  There were some allegations against Mickey Loomis, but I didn't think they went anywhere.
NEW ORLEANS -- The U.S. Attorney's Office in the Eastern District of Louisiana was told Friday that New Orleans Saints general manager Mickey Loomis had an electronic device in his Superdome suite that had been secretly re-wired to enable him to eavesdrop on visiting coaching staffs for nearly three NFL seasons, "Outside the Lines" has learned.
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7846290/new-orleans-saints-mickey-loomis-eavesdrop-opposing-coaches-home-games

Edit - Oh, I see OTL may have been FoS again.
 

PedroKsBambino

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troparra said:
 
You can't accept the input data as valid.  That is the biggest trick Exponent played in this whole affair.   
 
We have no actual pressure measurements for the balls pregame.  This is a huge amount of uncertainty.  But Exponent ran their statistical analyses and based their conclusions on the assumption that the Patriots balls were at 12.50 psi.  Not the average of the balls, mind you,but the assumption that each ball was at exactly 12.50 psi.
 
Thus, there is no error included in any calculation they did that involved the starting pressures. 
 
Look at Table A-1 as an example of how they present such data.  
 
Keep in mind we also have no temperatures for pre game or halftime
 

RedOctober3829

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@AdamSchefter: Giants' co-owner John Mara has respectfully declined to participate in settlement discussions between Tom Brady and NFL, per @mortreport.

Why would RG ask an owner to help mediate this? It's not nearly the same as the Jonathan Martin case.
 

Hoya81

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RedOctober3829 said:
@AdamSchefter: Giants' co-owner John Mara has respectfully declined to participate in settlement discussions between Tom Brady and NFL, per @mortreport.

Why would RG ask an owner to help mediate this? It's not nearly the same as the Jonathan Martin case.
I'm not so sure that offer would have come from the NFL.

RG is not going to let an owner swoop in and get all the credit for resolving a sticky situation. Tagliabue and Kraft already did that with Bountygate and the lockout.
 

J.McG

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RedOctober3829 said:
Why would RG ask an owner to help mediate this? It's not nearly the same as the Jonathan Martin case.
Mort just made this report on MNF (on Thursday) Countdown - apparently Berman requested Mara's involvement to push the NFL to hammer out a settlement. He declined due to "competitive conflicts". Mort cited the possibility of Brady being on the field for week 5 vs. a NFC East rival of the Giants, Dallas, being a bad look if Mara played a role in reducing the suspension.

EDIT: Worth noting that Mara was quoted as wanting Deflategate to just end "one way or the other" on WFAN earlier this week.
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2015/08/17/giants-owner-john-mara-on-deflategate-were-all-tired-of-hearing-about-it/
 

dcmissle

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Who invited this? If RG ...

RG: "You think this is so easy ... you take a seat at the table."

Mara (elegantly adjusting his double breasted suit and lighting a cigarette):

"No, that's what we have you for. Things did not end so well for Barzini."
 

Average Reds

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The report on ESPN stated that Berman invited Mara's involvement as head of the league's competition committee.

Presented without comment. Mostly because I'm too stunned to know what to think about it.
 

dcmissle

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So Berman has figured out who is really calling the shots. Very bad development for NFL IMO.
 

Joe D Reid

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dcmissle said:
So Berman has figured out who is really calling the shots. Very bad development for NFL IMO.
Absolutely. Berman is really working the NFL over here. I'm trying to imagine the equivalent in an ordinary litigation--I guess it would be something like calling in a member of a company's board of directors even though you've got the CEO sitting in front of you. I genuinely can't imagine that happening.
 
Either Berman has concluded that Goodell has no juice, or he wanted to hear from someone on the competition committee about how exactly the integrity of the game was violated. Either way it's good news for Brady.
 

Average Reds

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It's worse than that. He invited Mara to negotiate directly with Brady as if Goodell didn't even exist.

Just completely gelded Goodell in public.

Edit: this is all assuming that the report is accurate.
 

Reverend

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So if this is true... Berman basically just called Roger's mom?
 

E5 Yaz

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Average Reds said:
It's worse than that. He invited Mara to negotiate directly with Brady as if Goodell didn't even exist.

Just completely gelded Goodell in public.

Edit: this is all assuming that the report is accurate.
 
If you can't believe Mort ...
 

Harry Hooper

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There is no Rev said:
So if this is true... Berman basically just called Roger's mom?
 
That's what I was thinking. Berman is trying to find an actual NFL adult while Roger holds his breath and is turning dark blue.
 

lambeau

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In line with this, McCann said on EEI today this would have been a fine for an equipment violation but for a group of owners that wanted to launch a major investigation to finally nail the Patriots for cheating--his theory. The judge has figured out RG is not driving the boat; presumably Mara would not be pressured by an ownership cabal--or NFL staff.
 

pappymojo

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Harry Hooper said:
 
That's what I was thinking. Berman is trying to find an actual NFL adult while Roger holds his breath and is turning dark blue.
But of course Mara wouldnt step up. The owners are just as corrupt. Fuck Mara.
 

PedroKsBambino

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dcmissle said:
So Berman has figured out who is really calling the shots. Very bad development for NFL IMO.
 
Perhaps alternatively (or perhaps relatedly) he seems to have figured out that RG is a complete and total clown and that he needs to get an adult involved in the discussion.
 
I think NFL lawyers must be terrified at all of this.
 

J.McG

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Unlike Goodell, Mara at least has a law degree for whatever that's worth.

On another note, I find it mildly amusing that Schefter has now taken to tweeting out Mort's Deflategate scoops on his behalf. Is this just Mortensen attempting to play up his claim of not knowing how Twitter works, or more likely, does he think his DG tweets may have some slight chance of being viewed as credible if they come from Schefter's account? I mean Schefter was sitting right next to Mort in the ESPN studio when he made that Mara report...
 

Harry Hooper

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pappymojo said:
But of course Mara wouldnt step up. The owners are just as corrupt. Fuck Mara.
 
 
"You should read his testimony. He never even heard of Queeg Kensil."
 

dcmissle

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PedroKsBambino said:
 
Perhaps alternatively (or perhaps relatedly) he seems to have figured out that RG is a complete and total clown and that he needs to get an adult involved in the discussion.
 
I think NFL lawyers must be terrified at all of this.
Well they should be terrified.

I expressed the hope in one of our two threads that Berman would be able to smoke this out. It is a difficult thing to do, but he has done it.

It's bad because the Judge is signaling that he knows he has been fucked with. They have wasted his time, these powers behind the throne.

It's bad because the Judge well knows that the owners have no interest in settling this dispute. This is a power play vs the NFLPA.

Now the judge is indirectly raising the specter of involving the owners directly in this process. Perhaps ordering discovery from them. That is the implicit threat.
 

J.McG

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Eddie Jurak said:
The judge should order that, win or lose, Brady will be on the field in week 5. So no conflict.
Think Mort meant on field for game 4 vs DAL, which would happen in week 5 for the Pats, who have the early bye in week 4 this season.
 

Leather

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J.McG said:
Unlike Goodell, Mara at least has a law degree for whatever that's worth.
...
Lol.

I'm sure his CLE credits are all up to date, and were all in labor law and alternative dispute resolution, too!
 

Average Reds

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Eddie Jurak said:
The judge should order that, win or lose, Brady will be on the field in week 5. So no conflict.
Week 5 is the Pats 4th game and Brady is currently not eligible to play.

If you take it as a given that Berman is pressurting the NFL to negotiate a lessor punishment for Brady, Mara is absolutely correct to identify the competitive conflict of interest. Of course, it's very telling in the sense that is shows that the NFL is preparing itself for Brady being on the field for that game one way or another.
 

Ed Hillel

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Mara didn't recuse himself for the cap punishments against Jones and Snyder, did he? Pretty sure he played a central role in that process.
 

Otis Foster

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If this is accurate, it's really humiliating for RG and for Nash, who risks being turned into a scrivener. Berman must be completely pissed at this waste of time, as someone else commented. Where he goes with this is hard to predict.

You can't enter judgment against a party simply because he's acting like an a-hole, if the law is on his side.

Edit: must lerne to spel.
 

E5 Yaz

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Eddie Jurak

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Average Reds said:
Week 5 is the Pats 4th game and Brady is currently not eligible to play.

If you take it as a given that Berman is pressurting the NFL to negotiate a lessor punishment for Brady, Mara is absolutely correct to identify the competitive conflict of interest. Of course, it's very telling in the sense that is shows that the NFL is preparing itself for Brady being on the field for that game one way or another.
Berman couldn't grant an injunction for week 5?  Or from game 1 through week 5?  
 

Eddie Jurak

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Mara’s position is confusing, for various reasons. First, Mara is believed to be one of the owners pushing for the league to take a hard line with Brady. Second, if there’s any settlement of the four-game suspension, it surely would entail a reduction by at least one game. Third, perceived competitive conflicts of interest didn’t keep Mara from having direct involvement in cap penalties imposed on Dallas and Washington, or from stridently boasting that his pair of NFC East rivals were lucky that the penalty wasn’t worse.
 
 
The fact that Mara’s direct involvement was solicited tends to confirm that owners definitely have been involved in this phase of the process, where Roger Goodell, Arbitrator has reverted to Roger Goodell, Commissioner — and where he needs to ensure that his constituents are aware of and satisfied with any major decisions made by the league office. It also highlights the flaws inherent to having issues like this resolved by an internal process controlled by the NFL and then resolved via litigation.
 
 

Eddie Jurak

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drleather2001 said:
Why would Mara want that?
He wouldn't - it would be calling bullshit on him.
 
Kind of ironic that one of the few owners who has had significant success against the Belichick-era Patriots is leading the charge against them.  
 

Hoya81

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Ed Hillel said:
Just wait until the NFL offers Irsay in Mara's stead.
Going down the list of owners, there really aren't many choices for a mediator. Jeffrey Lurie or Clark Hunt?
 

WayBackVazquez

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Eddie Jurak said:
He wouldn't - it would be calling bullshit on him.
You're not making any sense. If Mara negotiated a settlement whereby Brady just pays a fine, what kind of injunction would you want?
 

dcmissle

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Ed Hillel said:
Just wait until the NFL offers Irsay in Mara's stead.
For the first time in this saga, red lights have turned on in 31 owners' offices. They want no part of any direct involvement in this shit in any capacity. I guarantee it.