Perhaps you could check your sources and see if those actions made a difference?TheoShmeo said:Good job, good effort, Stich01! I know I'm convinced.
Perhaps you could check your sources and see if those actions made a difference?TheoShmeo said:Good job, good effort, Stich01! I know I'm convinced.
Bleedred said:I don't believe that they offered McNally for a phone interview. The reporting on this whole affair has been really bad, and until I see it in some verifiable forum (court pleadings, etc.), or until someone from the NFL/Wells side tries to explain it away, I won't believe it.
Stitch01 said:I highly doubt it.
Kraft had to stick up for his team. Otherwise this whole mess would have barreled along through the week before the Super Bowl. The public outcry would have been exactly the same, the Wells Report would have had some other pretext for why the Pats needed to be hammered, and the hammer would have been dropped.
Pretty clear today that only way this wouldn't have happened is if the Jets coaches hadn't been filmed from the wrong location within the stadium 8 years ago.
moondog80 said:
Banning them from trading down, or from trading into the high second round, would be just as much of a penalty. This is 100% PR. "You can't reshuffle your assets in a way that morons might think you put one over on us".
What is your advice for Bob?dcmissle said:Again back to the font of so much wisdom:
"Sonny: All right, we wait.
Michael: It can't wait.
Sonny: Huh?
Michael: It can't wait. I don't care what Sollozzo says about a deal, he's gonna kill Pop. That's it. That's a key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo.
Clemenza: Mikey's right."
Stich touched on this in a companion thread. We cannot continue to live like this because every trumped up allegation serves as an occasion to attempt to cripple the team. And hurting the team, unfortunately, serves the agenda of executives and coaches League wide, and even some owners who want to provide alt reasons for their teams' underperformance.
Here's the bottom line on what we have just been through -- the "justice" was right out of Putin's Russia and structurally it is very difficult to defend against that.
Ed Hillel said:I was under the impression that this was a semi-sting operation, but the way the Wells Report was commissioned makes me think it was a full-blown sting. Harbaugh started it after Brady's comments and as a result of his bitterness, and he, Irsay, and Kensil set the whole thing up to catch them in the act.
It's true that Brady, Peterson and Rice have been subject to disciplinary policies that were not all collectively bargained, that are vague on expected punishments, and that do not always have an independent arbitration option. But remember, the NFL's bounty investigation into the Saints began when the Minnesota Vikings complained to commissioner Roger Goodell. Concerns about the Patriots' ball inflation were first brought forth by the Indianapolis Colts. In those issues and others, the league office has failed in one of its basic charges: to keep the peace among its 32 teams in a fair way that proactively maximizes the good of the league.
These episodes are not going to bring down the league on their own, and indeed, a true cynic could note they have held the nation's offseason attention in a way that no free-agent signing period or minicamp ever could. But it seems appropriate to conclude here with an amalgam of several conversations I've had recently with team executives about the NFL's current path.
All the execs appeared to be worn down not only by the attention on crime and cheating, but also by the league's uneven approach in dealing with these issues. The buildup of negativity is not what anyone wants to sell, and at some point, if not already, fans and clients will begin to view the league through the prism of off-field soap operas as much as its games and competition.
Next up: One of the best quarterbacks in NFL history will run the legal gauntlet while one of the league's most powerful owners mulls devastating power-play options that would in effect declare a corporate civil war.
Why not?BigSoxFan said:I don't think there's any chance that Kraft can get that many owners to side with him.
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter 3m3 minutes ago
Not many guarantees in life but here's one: Patriots will not go quietly in night. League had its say; Patriots will have theirs.
A simple channel block works nicely here. Plus, blocks are tracked by Directv.Seels said:Why are you fuckers giving the NFL Network any attention? You're doing exactly what the NFL wants here.
Nick Kaufman said:I am 41 years old. For a good chunk of my life I have followed politics ardently and passionately, so I know how it is to have violent disagreements between groups of people where eash side comes with prior assumptions, talks past each other and stares incomprehensibly at one another, while rarely resolving any of the differences. I know how it is for bad, yet intuitive ideas to charm and get ahold of majorities of people. I get it. It happens all the time. But then again, often times these are complex issue with many technical facets that very few people can understand or delve into.
And yet, after all of these years, I have never encountered an issue where the truth seemed so simple and patently obvious and commonsensical to me, only to have my views be so far out of line of what the majority of the people passionately think in the other direction. It's as if I look outside my window and I see the sun in the middle of the sky, but 90 percent of the people believe it's the deep of the night. I cannot process this. I am in awe. I am flabbergasted. What is happening is unreal, it's a bad dream. What to make of this? Can I be so fallible and blinded by fan bias that I cannot see the truth? Or alternatively, how can the gobsmacking, achingly obvious truth ellude so many people?
I have no words.
denilson3 said:I know several of you have critiqued the Exponent data already but this is a nice, easy to read breakdown that could use a signal boost. The logical fallacy used for the logo gauge vs non logo gauge assumption is particularly horrifying. If the investigators trusted Walt Anderson's memory, everything is explained by the physics and the text messages from last freaking May don't matter.
http://drewfustin.com/deflategate/
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter 3m3 minutes ago
Not many guarantees in life but here's one: Patriots will not go quietly in night. League had its say; Patriots will have theirs.
I'm sorry, I can't take that part of the report at face value. I'd need to hear Brady's side before I believe he actually said that and meant it.TheoShmeo said:Tom denied knowing McNally. Tom was in full denial mode when that was neither necessary nor advisable.
TheoShmeo said:Stich01 wrote above that the Pats handled this whole thing fine. I strongly disagree.
Tom denied knowing McNally. Tom was in full denial mode when that was neither necessary nor advisable.
Had Tom said something along the lines of "damn right I ask the ball guys to adjust the balls...I ask them to get them to 12.5, which is where I like them. They are not infallible and if balls were mistakenly adjusted below 12.5 or had readings below that after being exposed to rain and the elements, then that's on me, I guess."
Something like that would have gone a long way to making him less of a target.
As to Kraft, I enjoyed the crap out of the "we will be owed an apology" speech but at the end of the day, I don't think that helped. I don't know how much it hurt, but it could not have helped. It made me feel better at the time but my feelings are irrelevant.
I'm not blaming the victim but I think had Tom come out with something along the lines of the above and Kraft not thrown down that gauntlet, that things would have been less severe.
I have no idea what the motivation would be for someone from the NFL to leak it...but I simply don't trust reporters sources on this.DrewDawg said:
But that leak came from the NFL, not the Patriots. You wouldn't think the NFL would want that out there.
garzooma said:One thing Kraft should have done yesterday is reinstate McNally and Jastremski. People are using the fact that the Patriots suspended them as evidence that they did in fact deflate the footballs.
genoasalami said:Ya ...penalties are harsh ...but at the end of the day ...game balls were more than likely deflated under the "approval" of Brady.
Pats exposed themselves to all this crap by trying to get an edge ... they were caught ....and now everyone is pissed that the punishment is ridiculous.
What did the expect the NFL to do after taking a beating on the way they have handled numerous transgressions over the past few years?
They still win the SB if they do not manipulate the balls.
Tough way to learn a lesson.
Yes. I think that without the BB and Kraft pre-SB press conferences, the Pats lose the game. In the short term those statements had their desired effects.Stitch01 said:I highly doubt it.
Kraft had to stick up for his team. Otherwise this whole mess would have barreled along through the week before the Super Bowl. The public outcry would have been exactly the same, the Wells Report would have had some other pretext for why the Pats needed to be hammered, and the hammer would have been dropped.
Pretty clear today that only way this wouldn't have happened is if the Jets coaches hadn't been filmed from the wrong location within the stadium 8 years ago.
This is the problem with Patriot detractors. They cannot even get the facts of the report correct (not that I blame them, given all the circular logic). For genoasalami: "It was more probable than not that Tom Brady was generally aware that the equipment guys deflated the footballs below the required psi." There's no finding that he approved anything. Second, no one has found any causal connection between the reduced psi (below 12.5) and some asserted competitive edge, and they were not "caught" doing anything.genoasalami said:Ya ...penalties are harsh ...but at the end of the day ...game balls were more than likely deflated under the "approval" of Brady.
Pats exposed themselves to all this crap by trying to get an edge ... they were caught ....and now everyone is pissed that the punishment is ridiculous.
What did the expect the NFL to do after taking a beating on the way they have handled numerous transgressions over the past few years? They set themselves up for a beating and they got it.
They still win the SB if they do not manipulate the balls.
Tough way to learn a lesson.
ivanvamp said:
What were the reasons Vincent gave for the harsher penalty?
1. Failure to cooperate. Turns out to be, at least in part, a crock, as McNally *was* made available, just by phone instead of in person. But why should that matter to the NFL? Why is a phone interview suddenly "uncooperative"?
Wells must have missed that class.Myt1 said:One of the first things you learn in legal writing is that characterizations are less effective than an actual presentation of the facts and that they are inherently suspect. The closer one reads the Wells Report, the more the liberties likely taken become apparent.
PW--and Vincent--love themselves some adjectives and adverbs.
TheoShmeo said:Stich01 wrote above that the Pats handled this whole thing fine. I strongly disagree.
Tom denied knowing McNally. Tom was in full denial mode when that was neither necessary nor advisable.
Had Tom said something along the lines of "damn right I ask the ball guys to adjust the balls...I ask them to get them to 12.5, which is where I like them. They are not infallible and if balls were mistakenly adjusted below 12.5 or had readings below that after being exposed to rain and the elements, then that's on me, I guess."
Something like that would have gone a long way to making him less of a target.
As to Kraft, I enjoyed the crap out of the "we will be owed an apology" speech but at the end of the day, I don't think that helped. I don't know how much it hurt, but it could not have helped. It made me feel better at the time but my feelings are irrelevant.
I'm not blaming the victim but I think had Tom come out with something along the lines of the above and Kraft not thrown down that gauntlet, that things would have been less severe.
Whatever ...I'm as big a Pats fan as anyone ...but you can't tell me that there were not shenanigans going on with the balls. Brady looked like he was ready to hurl at his press conference a few days after they were accused ... The exposed themselves to getting whacked and they got whacked ..now they have to fight to get the penalties reduced... Brady has a good shot at getting his suspension reduced, but the draft picks and the $$ are gone for good.drleather2001 said:
No...
canderson said:I am one who doesn't think he does much. I believe he'll sink everything he can to eliminate / lessen Brady's punishment but eat the fine and the draft pick loss.
Suing the NFL I'd think opens a massive Pandora's Box for him as a businessman.
RedOctober3829 said:I will keep coming back to this. Carolina and San Diego had similar equipment violations. Both got minor penalties. Does past precedent and failure to comply equal out to 40 times the fine, a 4 game suspension, and the loss of 2 draft picks?
Gave it last night. I would do everything short of suing the League and would really encourage and support TB in his appeal. Pulling on that thread maximizes the chance of this being exposed for what it is. Then you move against Goodell.mulluysavage said:What is your advice for Bob?
TheoShmeo said:Tee hee, Stich01 took another shot at my sources. Boo hoo! Despite your continual jabs, I will keep passing on what I hear. I know from posts and PMs that enough people here appreciate knowing what's being said by those claiming knowledge, even if it proves inaccurate.
Parenthetically, the thing yesterday about 8 games was interesting. Bleedred got it from two people and I got it from a very connected entertainment lawyer who knows people at 345 Park. Were they putting that out there as yet another sting? Just strange.
And along those lines, a different person with a connection to both the NFL and the Krafts told me that -- as has been reported and speculated on by many, and as Vincent essentially said -- that the Pats were being punished in large measure because they are viewed as bad citizens. In particular, the Hernandez thing and their failure to intercede before he was arrested weighed heavily in all of this. Take it FWIW, and it might be nothing or something or something in between.
PS: Eddie Jurak makes an interesting point about the comments effectively rallying the Pats. I wouldn't go as far as saying they would have lost the SB without their bravado, but I agree that it was probably just what the players needed to hear. Then again, if Pete Carroll runs the ball there at the end...
"I could see it in his eyes"genoasalami said:Whatever ...I'm as big a Pats fan as anyone ...but you can't tell me that there were not shenanigans going on with the balls. Brady looked like he was ready to hurl at his press conference a few days after they were accused ... The exposed themselves to getting whacked and they got whacked ..now they have to fight to get the penalties reduced... Brady has a good shot at getting his suspension reduced, but the draft picks and the $$ are gone for good.
Because even assuming Brady did exactly what he's accused of it's not just a minor offense but a nothing offense that is in line with common but unaddressed behavior by other QBs in the league. The lesson here has little to do with the Patriots. I'm not even sure there is a lesson yet given that this will drag out for months and the final repercussions are unknown.genoasalami said:Ya ...penalties are harsh ...but at the end of the day ...game balls were more than likely deflated under the "approval" of Brady.
Pats exposed themselves to all this crap by trying to get an edge ... they were caught ....and now everyone is pissed that the punishment is ridiculous.
What did the expect the NFL to do after taking a beating on the way they have handled numerous transgressions over the past few years? They set themselves up for a beating and they got it.
They still win the SB if they do not manipulate the balls.
Tough way to learn a lesson.
That is a good point that I wasn't thinking about. It adds a definite wrinkle.Harry Hooper said:
Perhaps, but if the penalties are going to escalate for the Pats with every infraction (regardless of severity), you are pretty much forced into fighting with all you've got.
Dude, you're like 0-Life on this stuff. At this point, what's the utility to keeping it up, for yourself or the board?TheoShmeo said:Tee hee, Stich01 took another shot at my sources. Boo hoo! Despite your continual jabs, I will keep passing on what I hear. I know from posts and PMs that enough people here appreciate knowing what's being said by those claiming knowledge, even if it proves inaccurate.
Parenthetically, the thing yesterday about 8 games was interesting. Bleedred got it from two people and I got it from a very connected entertainment lawyer who knows people at 345 Park. Were they putting that out there as yet another sting? Just strange.
And along those lines, a different person with a connection to both the NFL and the Krafts told me that -- as has been reported and speculated on by many, and as Vincent essentially said -- that the Pats were being punished in large measure because they are viewed as bad citizens. In particular, the Hernandez thing and their failure to intercede before he was arrested weighed heavily in all of this. Take it FWIW, and it might be nothing or something or something in between.
And JJ seems to have often referred to him as "Bird."MarcSullivaFan said:Or he knows who is he is but doesn't know his name. There are support people at my work who I've been seeing for seven years whom I could not name with a gun to my head. I "know" who they are, maybe even what they do, but couldn't put a name to a face and function.
Or he could have just lied. I'm still open to that possibility.
Ferm Sheller said:
Kraft is setting up to make the "Brady requested 12.5 psi and Jastremski and McNally acted on their own and took things a little to far" narrative, and suspending the two furthers that cause. Kraft is willing to swallow the $1M hit and loss of draft picks (team's punishment for, at least in part, failing to properly monitor Jastremski and McNally) to optimally pursue the bigger goal: overturning/reducing Brady's suspension, which of course is harmful to both Brady and the team.
TheoShmeo said:Tee hee, Stich01 took another shot at my sources. Boo hoo! Despite your continual jabs, I will keep passing on what I hear. I know from posts and PMs that enough people here appreciate knowing what's being said by those claiming knowledge, even if it proves inaccurate.
Parenthetically, the thing yesterday about 8 games was interesting. Bleedred got it from two people and I got it from a very connected entertainment lawyer who knows people at 345 Park. Were they putting that out there as yet another sting? Just strange.
And along those lines, a different person with a connection to both the NFL and the Krafts told me that -- as has been reported and speculated on by many, and as Vincent essentially said -- that the Pats were being punished in large measure because they are viewed as bad citizens. In particular, the Hernandez thing and their failure to intercede before he was arrested weighed heavily in all of this. Take it FWIW, and it might be nothing or something or something in between.
PS: Eddie Jurak makes an interesting point about the comments effectively rallying the Pats. I wouldn't go as far as saying they would have lost the SB without their bravado, but I agree that it was probably just what the players needed to hear. Then again, if Pete Carroll runs the ball there at the end...