Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

HomeBrew1901

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With the Wells report "findings", I will not be listening to the show today, it's going to be a shitshow.
 
If I'm wrong and they attack the report as a bunch of BS and underwhelming please let me know, but this is the type of shit that Felger feeds off of.
 

the1andonly3003

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HomeBrew1901 said:
With the Wells report "findings", I will not be listening to the show today, it's going to be a shitshow.
 
If I'm wrong and they attack the report as a bunch of BS and underwhelming please let me know, but this is the type of shit that Felger feeds off of.
I'm expecting a lot of Brady bashing.  Maybe them calling for the start of the Jimmy G era
 

Quiddity

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Listened from around 4:30 - 6:00. Some of the usual garbage from them (Felger acting like 95% of the media is in the tank for the team which is utter bull) but overall they weren't anywhere as bad as I thought they would be over it.
 

nattysez

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Quiddity said:
Listened from around 4:30 - 6:00. Some of the usual garbage from them (Felger acting like 95% of the media is in the tank for the team which is utter bull) but overall they weren't anywhere as bad as I thought they would be over it.
 
I don't know.  Some of the stuff I've seen on Twitter today from Kyed, Curran and Howe pretty much screams "in the tank."  
 

WenZink

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southshoresoxfan said:
So its in the tank to suggest a report w a questionable at best company doing the research on and presented nothing beyond more speculation?
 
Felger was actually articulate on the subject on the CSN TV show last night at 10:00.  The "more probable than not" is the NFL's version of "the preponderance of the evidence" standard that would earn a judgement in a civil suit.  He did question the NFL's judgement in going out of their way to disparage one of the game's top performers.  Unfortunately for Patriot fans, they had the idiotic Jerry Thornton on the panel as the advocate for Brady.  The longer I listened to Thornton the more I took the other side of the issue.  He was so bad he made Ron Borges (sitting next to him) look objective.
 

steveluck7

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There was a glimmer of hope quickly shattered at the end of yesterday's show. The 3 (F, M, and Jim Murray) agreed to split up the entire report and each be responsible for diving into a portion. I thought that could be a good thing as they might really be able to spot some inconsistencies and holes in the report, especially with the assumptions made by Exponent. Those hopes were dashed, however, when Mazz volunteered to "take the science stuff."
 

HomeBrew1901

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WenZink said:
 
Felger was actually articulate on the subject on the CSN TV show last night at 10:00.  The "more probable than not" is the NFL's version of "the preponderance of the evidence" standard that would earn a judgement in a civil suit.  He did question the NFL's judgement in going out of their way to disparage one of the game's top performers.  Unfortunately for Patriot fans, they had the idiotic Jerry Thornton on the panel as the advocate for Brady.  The longer I listened to Thornton the more I took the other side of the issue.  He was so bad he made Ron Borges (sitting next to him) look objective.
I think this is where Felger knows he has to tread lightly. 
 
It's one thing to bite the hand that feeds you but at the end of the day the Patriots have a very profitable working relationship with CBS and TSH so while it's one thing to poke at fans, it's another to complete shit on one of the best quarter backs in history for a report that had no direct evidence.  Don't get me wrong, the evidence presented doesn't look good for Brady, however instead of doing schtick Felger discussed both sides.
 
Edit: I was expecting Felger and Mazz to go completely anti-Patriot/anti-honk calling them cheaters, saying this tainted Brady's legacy and Super Bowl victories, throw the book at them, level stuff.  Instead, it was a decent overview of what was going on.
 

WenZink

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HomeBrew1901 said:
I think this is where Felger knows he has to tread lightly. 
 
It's one thing to bite the hand that feeds you but at the end of the day the Patriots have a very profitable working relationship with CBS and TSH so while it's one thing to poke at fans, it's another to complete shit on one of the best quarter backs in history for a report that had no direct evidence.  Don't get me wrong, the evidence presented doesn't look good for Brady, however instead of doing schtick Felger discussed both sides.
 
Edit: I was expecting Felger and Mazz to go completely anti-Patriot/anti-honk calling them cheaters, saying this tainted Brady's legacy and Super Bowl victories, throw the book at them, level stuff.  Instead, it was a decent overview of what was going on.
 
I have a whole problem with Pat/Brady defenders using the "no direct evidence" line of defense.  This wasn't a criminal proceeding.  But civil suits are won all the time without presenting any direct evidence.  Most of us can arrive at the conclusion that Brady made it very clear to the two boobs what he wanted.  The real issue is why the NFL proceeded so vigorously with their actions, after they had been alerted to the violations earlier in the season.  Why didn't they just alert the Patriots and tell them to stop.  This was addressed on CSN by Felger, the panel and later on with Tom E. Curran.
 
That's the issue, IMO, and in Felger's opinion as well.  Trying to defend Tom Brady with cries of "no direct evidence," or "they all do it," makes us sound like Barry Bonds defenders from 10 years ago. 
 
Are other teams just jealous over the Patriot's success?  Is that their motivation, or have the Patriots earned some of this extra measure of scrutiny?  Why would the league possibly go to such lengths to diminish the reputation of the #1 player of his era?
 

WenZink

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HomeBrew1901 said:
Let's keep this thread to discussing how Felger and Mazz handle it, no need for another shit show of a thread discussing the merits of the report.
I thought I was,.  Everything in my previous post was how Felger was framing the issue.  As far as Mazz, I pretty much turn my mind off at the sound of his voice.
 
Edit: I got it.  HB was probably not referring to my post.  HB might be right that Felger's "mature" handling of the issue on CSN has to do with "business arrangements," but having seen how he goes after the "Green Teamers," I'm not so sure.  And I don't even want to go near the deflate-gate thread.  I soiled my footie-pajamas with a minute to go in the Super Bowl, and they're still not back from the dry-cleaners.
 

Buffalo Head

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They did a good show yesterday. Makes you wish they just did that all the time. They could if they wanted to. People would listen just as much. That's what frustrates me the most about them and the direction they seemed to veer off into, to me anyway, in early 2012.
 

HomeBrew1901

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Buffalo Head said:
They did a good show yesterday. Makes you wish they just did that all the time. They could if they wanted to. People would listen just as much. That's what frustrates me the most about them and the direction they seemed to veer off into, to me anyway, in early 2012.
I'll be tuning in at 2 to see if they are as good as they were yesterday or if they are swayed by the mob mentality and go at the Patriots.
 

WenZink

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RedOctober3829 said:
These guys are actually level headed about this.  Do you agree?
 
From what I watched, i agree.  Felger started out with articulating the "more probable, than not" stance as the NFL's way of meaning "a preponderance of the evidence."  It blows away the idiotic defense that some have maintained that the NFL had "no proof" of anything and that the Wells' report was inconclusive.  And if any caller tries to take this stance, then the "footie-pajamas" slur is deserved.
 

Gorton Fisherman

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WenZink said:
 
Most of us can arrive at the conclusion that Brady made it very clear to the two boobs what he wanted.  
 
Sure we can.  However, there's nothing illegal or improper about Brady making it clear to "the two boobs" that he wanted his balls inflated to 12.5 PSI.  And there's no evidence contained within the Wells report that Brady engaged in anything more nefarious than that.  
 
The flawed logic is where people leap from "Brady strongly expressed his preference for ball inflation to the employees" to "Brady directed the employees to illegally deflate balls to a level less than 12.5 PSI after they had been inspected by the officials".  Wells himself makes this flawed logical leap when he concludes that Brady was "generally aware" of illegal activity by the employees.  However, it is important to note that this is not a factual finding of the investigation, but rather simply Wells' opinion.  And it is one that is unsupported by the facts contained within Wells' own report.
 

WenZink

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Gorton Fisherman said:
 
Sure we can.  However, there's nothing illegal or improper about Brady making it clear to "the two boobs" that he wanted his balls inflated to 12.5 PSI.  And there's no evidence contained within the Wells report that Brady engaged in anything more nefarious than that.  
 
The flawed logic is where people leap from "Brady strongly expressed his preference for ball inflation to the employees" to "Brady directed the employees to illegally deflate balls to a level less than 12.5 PSI after they had been inspected by the officials".  Wells himself makes this flawed logical leap when he concludes that Brady was "generally aware" of illegal activity by the employees.  However, it is important to note that this is not a factual finding of the investigation, but rather simply Wells' opinion.  And it is one that is unsupported by the facts contained within Wells' own report.
 
It's not such a "leap."  To make that leap, a person just has to deem that it was 51% - 49% that Brady made directions to under-inflate the balls, or knew, somehow, that it was being done by said "nitwits."  From what I've read (and I haven't read everything, but more than excerpts) it's not a leap for me to say that it's "more probable than not" that Brady was complicit.  The burden of proof is far below what would be required to get a criminal conviction.
 
Now it should be realized, that this is not even a civil proceeding, but an inquiry conducted by the NFL on one of it's franchises.  I'm guessing Goodell could have just come to his own conclusion while taking his daily BM.  The Patriots and Brady had some opportunity to make their case, and while Kraft has already said the team will abide by the report, Brady has every right to present his side of the case upon appeal, if and when he is fined/suspended.  So maybe he has something to say that has relevance, beyond his "What me worry" statement last January.
 
Getting back to the topic in the thread, I felt Felger did a good job articulating the meaning and significance of "more probable than not."  You don't need a smoking gun to arrive at a judgement and punishment.  I have a lot of problems with the NFL pursuing this in the first place, but the evidence provided in the report is convincing enough to surmise that Brady was complicit.
 

Gorton Fisherman

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WenZink said:
 
It's not such a "leap."  To make that leap, a person just has to deem that it was 51% - 49% that Brady made directions to under-inflate the balls
 
I disagree.  I think it's an enormous leap, absent any actual facts that would indicate that Brady "made directions" to under-inflate balls.  Can you cite a single specific fact or piece of testimony from the report that shows that Brady "made directions" to under-inflate balls (i.e. below the legal limit of 12.5 PSI)?  I have yet to see one.  I don't see how anyone could reasonably "deem that it was 51%-49%" that Brady made such directions in the complete absence of facts or evidence that would support this conclusion.
 
Another point here is that for Brady to have done something illegal, not only would he have to have directed that balls be inflated to a target value less than 12.5 PSI, he also would have had to have been complicit in such under-inflation being performed after the officials had performed their pre-game inspection.  It is not a rule violation to submit balls to the officials that are under-inflated; as has been pointed out here numerous times, it is the officials' responsibility to check the submitted balls and adjust them to with the legal PSI range if necessary.  Again, I have yet to see a single shard of evidence that would show that Brady directed, approved, or condoned tampering with balls after the official inspection. If you are aware of any such evidence, please cite it.
 
Bringing this back to Felger and Mazz, it seems like these two just accept as an incontrovertable fact that Brady was complicit in the ball tampering, despite the lack of evidence to support this contention.  It's just "common sense" to them.  "OF COURSE HE KNEW ABOUT THE TAMPERING, MIKE!!!"  I think this is lazy, reckless behavior on their part, and is not far removed from some of Felger's other scurrilous accusations, such as that Pedro "must have" used performance-enhancing drugs.  This kind of thing is really just contemptible IMO.  I'm sure it makes for great ratings though.
 

WenZink

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Gorton Fisherman said:
 
I disagree.  I think it's an enormous leap, absent any actual facts that would indicate that Brady "made directions" to under-inflate balls.  Can you cite a single specific fact or piece of testimony from the report that shows that Brady "made directions" to under-inflate balls (i.e. below the legal limit of 12.5 PSI)?  I have yet to see one.  I don't see how anyone could reasonably "deem that it was 51%-49%" that Brady made such directions in the complete absence of facts or evidence that would support this conclusion.
 
Another point here is that for Brady to have done something illegal, not only would he have to have directed that balls be inflated to a target value less than 12.5 PSI, he also would have had to have been complicit in such under-inflation being performed after the officials had performed their pre-game inspection.  It is not a rule violation to submit balls to the officials that are under-inflated; as has been pointed out here numerous times, it is the officials' responsibility to check the submitted balls and adjust them to with the legal PSI range if necessary.  Again, I have yet to see a single shard of evidence that would show that Brady directed, approved, or condoned tampering with balls after the official inspection. If you are aware of any such evidence, please cite it.
 
Bringing this back to Felger and Mazz, it seems like these two just accept as an incontrovertable fact that Brady was complicit in the ball tampering, despite the lack of evidence to support this contention.  It's just "common sense" to them.  "OF COURSE HE KNEW ABOUT THE TAMPERING, MIKE!!!"  I think this is lazy, reckless behavior on their part, and is not far removed from some of Felger's other scurrilous accusations, such as that Pedro "must have" used performance-enhancing drugs.  This kind of thing is really just contemptible IMO.  I'm sure it makes for great ratings though.
 
I know you disagree.  It's an enormous leap for you, but it's not for me.  If I was on a juror on a criminal trial, I'd be instructed that I must find the evidence of guilt, beyond a reasonable doubt, and I'd vote not guilty.  But in this case, "more probable than not" works for me.  If Brady and his lawyers can present evidence (either new or already given, but excluded from the Wells report) I'll listen/read and keep an open mind.
 

Gorton Fisherman

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WenZink said:
 
I know you disagree.  It's an enormous leap for you, but it's not for me.  If I was on a juror on a criminal trial, I'd be instructed that I must find the evidence of guilt, beyond a reasonable doubt, and I'd vote not guilty.  But in this case, "more probable than not" works for me. 
 
That's fine.  But I'm genuinely curious: what specific facts or set of facts contained in the Wells report lead you to support this conclusion even to the level of "more probable than not"?
 
 

Gorton Fisherman

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F&M off to a flying start so far today.
 
1) Felger criticizing the team for always engaging in "deny, deny, deny, then accuse".  Does he really think they should admit guilt if they truly feel they did not violate any rules?
2) Felger claiming that things would go easier for the team if they just admitted guilt.  Does he truly think Goodell is going be more lenient in punishment if they just admit some kind of culpability?  I don't see any basis for this in Goodell's prior behavior.
3) He's killing Yee (in an NPR interview) for accusing the league of "malice" in the writing of the report.  Hasn't Felger himself been pushing basically this same exact line (i.e. that the league had it out for the Pats from the get-go, and that the report reflects the league's pre-existing bias?)
 
He's 3-for-3 on The Crazy so far today.
 

WenZink

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Gorton Fisherman said:
F&M off to a flying start so far today.
 
1) Felger criticizing the team for always engaging in "deny, deny, deny, then accuse".  Does he really think they should admit guilt if they truly feel they did not violate any rules?
2) Felger claiming that things would go easier for the team if they just admitted guilt.  Does he truly think Goodell is going be more lenient in punishment if they just admit some kind of culpability?  I don't see any basis for this in Goodell's prior behavior.
3) He's killing Yee (in an NPR interview) for accusing the league of "malice" in the writing of the report.  Hasn't Felger himself been pushing basically this same exact line (i.e. that the league had it out for the Pats from the get-go, and that the report reflects the league's pre-existing bias?)
 
He's 3-for-3 on The Crazy so far today.
 
You only think Felger is crazy because you're convinced the Patriots aren't guilty of anything.  I'd estimate that 90% think they're guilty.  Even Tom E. Curran, thinks that Brady had to know.  From that perspective, Felger's advice is correct.  Because while half the country will always think the Patriots are guilty of some heinous behavior, some of us think the Patriots are guilty of a very small infraction.  So Felger's advice, to admit to a small infraction, is all good.
 
I can't say if it will make Goodell more lenient, but it can't hurt.  Goodell has to weigh public opinion into what punishment will be seen has too harsh or too lenient.  If the Patriots can get out in front of the story and make under-inflation the equivalent of a speeding ticket, then at least some of us will regard anything more than a fine and maybe 6th pick forfeit as too harsh.  I don't want to see Brady get suspended over this.
 

Gorton Fisherman

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WenZink said:
You only think Felger is crazy because you're convinced the Patriots aren't guilty of anything. 
 
Not true.  I actually think McNally and Jastremski may possibly have engaged in some illegal tampering. 
 
I'd estimate that 90% think they're guilty.
 
90% of the public, you mean?  OK.  This is relevant to this discussion how, exactly?
 
Even Tom E. Curran, thinks that Brady had to know.
 
OK.   Again, this is relevant how?  (BTW, I like Tom Curran.  But I think he's wrong about this.  I maintain that there are zero pieces of probative evidence contained the Wells report that support this conclusion.  Again, I'd welcome you to provide a reference to one.  Just one. )
 
So Felger's advice, to admit to a small infraction, is all good. I can't say if it will make Goodell more lenient, but it can't hurt. 
 
Sure it could hurt, because it would provide the NFL with a piece of definitive proof that the Patriots engaged in wrongdoing.  As opposed to the situation now, where the NFL has exactly 0.0 pieces of definitive proof.  Why would it be in the Patriots' interest to assist the NFL in making their case?  What if they actually didn't do anything wrong?  Should they now lie and say they did, just on the crazy hope that Goodell may possibly go easier on them?
 
And again, what basis is there to believe that Goodell would be the slightest bit more lenient if the team admitted to wrongdoing?   Is there anything in his handling of previous discipline cases that would support this?  If so, please elaborate.
 
Goodell has to weigh public opinion into what punishment will be seen has too harsh or too lenient.
 
No, he doesn't have to weigh public opinion.  In fact, he shouldn't.  This isn't a trial by public mob, or by opinion poll.  It is precisely Goodell's job to decide the appropriate punishment based on his own best judgment, public opinion be damned.  That's why he gets paid the big bucks, to make tough decisions.  He should make his decision consistent with the nature of the offense, and with any existing precedents or rules regarding punishment appropriate for this type of offense.  After all, I keep hearing that the NFL rules are SACROSANCT!  INTEGRITY OF THE GAME! and all that jazz.  You want to know what the existing "sacrosanct NFL rule" on the books suggests as a punishment for this precise offense?  A fine of $25K.
 
[SIZE=11.666666030883789px]I don't want to see Brady get suspended over this.[/SIZE] 
 
Me neither.  And I think going from "$25K fine" (as the NFL rulebook suggests) to "suspending a player for one or more games" would be a crazy, unjustifiable leap.  It wouldn't surprise me, though since I think Goodell is a nincompoop who sucks at his job.  But even that being said, I don't follow the logic of how the team admitting guilt makes this outcome any less likely.
 

WenZink

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Gorton Fisherman said:
 
Not true.  I actually think McNally and Jastremski may possibly have engaged in some illegal tampering. 
 
 
90% of the public, you mean?  OK.  This is relevant to this discussion how, exactly?
 
 
OK.   Again, this is relevant how?  (BTW, I like Tom Curran.  But I think he's wrong about this.  I maintain that there are zero pieces of probative evidence contained the Wells report that support this conclusion.  Again, I'd welcome you to provide a reference to one.  Just one. )
 
 
Sure it could hurt, because it would provide the NFL with a piece of definitive proof that the Patriots engaged in wrongdoing.  As opposed to the situation now, where the NFL has exactly 0.0 pieces of definitive proof.  Why would it be in the Patriots' interest to assist the NFL in making their case?  What if they actually didn't do anything wrong?  Should they now lie and say they did, just on the crazy hope that Goodell may possibly go easier on them?
 
And again, what basis is there to believe that Goodell would be the slightest bit more lenient if the team admitting to wrongdoing?   Is there anything in his handling of previous discipline cases that would support this?  If so, please elaborate.
 
 
No, he doesn't have to weigh public opinion.  In fact, he shouldn't.  This isn't a trial by public mob, or by opinion poll.  It is precisely Goodell's job to decide the appropriate punishment based on his own best judgment, public opinion be damned.  That's why he gets paid the big bucks, to make tough decisions.  He should make his decision consistent with the nature of the offense, and with any existing precedents or rules regarding punishment appropriate for this type of offense.  After all, I keep hearing that the NFL rules are SACROSANCT!  INTEGRITY OF THE GAME! and all that jazz.  You want to know what the existing "sacrosanct NFL rule" on the books suggests as a punishment for this precise offense?  A fine of $25K.
 
 
Me neither.  And I think going from "$25K fine" (as the NFL rulebook suggests) to "suspending a player for one or more games" would be a crazy, unjustifiable leap.  It wouldn't surprise me, though since I think Goodell is a nincompoop who sucks at his job.  But even that being said, I don't follow the logic of how the team admitting guilt makes this outcome any less likely.
 
All your comments miss the point of Felger's advice.
 
It doesn't matter that you think Brady is innocent.  The battle is lost (barring  some sound and vigorous defense from Brady and his lawyers).  The NFL thinks Brady is guilty.  90% of the country thinks Brady is guilty.  The only strategy left (again, outside of some VERY strong case by TB) is to minimize the damage, hope to shape the public debate amongst those that don't hate the Patriots, and try get out of this debacle with as little damage as possible.
 
It doesn't matter whether you think Brady is innocent.  Felger's advice is 100% correct.
 

PBDWake

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WenZink said:
 
All your comments miss the point of Felger's advice.
 
It doesn't matter that you think Brady is innocent.  The battle is lost (barring  some sound and vigorous defense from Brady and his lawyers).  The NFL thinks Brady is guilty.  90% of the country thinks Brady is guilty.  The only strategy left (again, outside of some VERY strong case by TB) is to minimize the damage, hope to shape the public debate amongst those that don't hate the Patriots, and try get out of this debacle with as little damage as possible.
 
It doesn't matter whether you think Brady is innocent.  Felger's advice is 100% correct.
 
No, it's not. Because ultimately, whatever punishment Brady is assessed will be decided on appeal. There is no way that ANY suspension will go uncontested by the PA, and there is very strong reason to believe that once Clown Shoes isn't making the decisions, rational minds will emerge and grownups will talk. Goodell might not even fight an appeal that hard. But there's no reason to do any of that stuff until the appeals process has exhausted itself.
 

Gorton Fisherman

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Well, I believe that admitting guilt would exacerbate the damage, not minimize it.  Among other things, we would then have to deal not just with morons saying "PATRIOT$ ARE CHEATERZ!#!%" as we currently do, but "PATRIOT$ ARE ADMITTED CHEATERZ!#@!".  Don't see how that really helps us.
 
But whatever, you're entitled to your opinion, and I think we've beat the living heck out of this particular horse.  Let's just agree to disagree.
 
Moving back to the content of today's show, what did everyone think of Portnoy's performance today?  Not surprisingly, I thought he was fairly effective poking holes in several of Felger's more egregious lapses in logic.  You could sense Felger getting frustrated and a bit snippy with him at times.  Felger's not that used to getting challenged like that.  
 

WenZink

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Gorton Fisherman said:
Well, I believe that admitting guilt would exacerbate the damage, not minimize it.  Among other things, we would then have to deal not just with morons saying "PATRIOT$ ARE CHEATERZ!#!%" as we currently do, but "PATRIOT$ ARE ADMITTED CHEATERZ!#@!".  Don't see how that really helps us.
 
But whatever, you're entitled to your opinion, and I think we've beat the living heck out of this particular horse.  Let's just agree to disagree.
 
Moving back to the content of today's show, what did everyone think of Portnoy's performance today?  Not surprisingly, I thought he was fairly effective poking holes in several of Felger's more egregious lapses in logic.  You could sense Felger getting frustrated and a bit snippy with him at times.  Felger's not that used to getting challenged like that.  
 
Felger got frustrated with a "true believer" insisting the NFL "has nothing."  It frustrates me, as well, which is why I'm not in the football section debating the issue.  I'm past that.  It doesn't matter to me what 10% of the country thinks.  The Patriots have lost the debate, and lost the case, as well.  Get past it.  It's over, except for trying to mitigate the damages.
 

WenZink

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southshoresoxfan said:
Lol you're well on your way to being the next Felger wenzink. First class trolling in this thread.
 
Not really a fan of Felger, but he's right on this one.  His reaction to the Wells report is unusually subdued and to the point.  It's a big deal being made over a small infraction, but it's still a big deal.
 
Of course the 10% of Patriots defenders will be debating this issue for the next 40 years.  Have fun amongst yourselves.
 

southshoresoxfan

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WenZink said:
 
Not really a fan of Felger, but he's right on this one.  His reaction to the Wells report is unusually subdued and to the point.  It's a big deal being made over a small infraction, but it's still a big deal.
 
Of course the 10% of Patriots defenders will be debating this issue for the next 40 years.  Have fun amongst yourselves.
Is it a big deal or a small infraction? Mutually exclusive terms there chief.
 

Quiddity

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Admitting they did it (even if it were true, which many, myself included believe is not the case) will do them no good. They behaved with Spygate when it came to admitting their wrong doing. They accepted the punishment and we didn't see much if any of a fight from them (certainly in comparison with this). What did we get out of that? Goodell destroying the evidence. Goodell punishing the team so harshly for something that would be 100% within the rules if they filmed from another position that the general public thought it to be far worse than it actually was. Forcing Kraft and Belichick to apologize in front of all the other owners when everyone knows that many other teams were doing exactly the same thing. Years upon years upon years of the team getting bashed to death by the general public and the media and all their accomplishments dragged through the mud. After all that they should simply buckle under and admit to something which they don't think they did in the first place?
 
Felger isn't coming after this from a standpoint of what is right for the team. If they were to admit to such things, he would immediately move the goal posts. We have years worth of him doing this. Don't think that this would be any different. Heck, he's demanding the league punish both the team and Belichick at this point, despite the report absolving them of wrong doing.
 

j-man

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if its was me  i wouild only do brady  1 game and a 1st round pick lost in 16    
 
but i think goddell will cave to the public    and say 4-6 games    for brady    
 

WenZink

New Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,078
Quiddity said:
Admitting they did it (even if it were true, which many, myself included believe is not the case) will do them no good. They behaved with Spygate when it came to admitting their wrong doing. They accepted the punishment and we didn't see much if any of a fight from them (certainly in comparison with this). What did we get out of that? Goodell destroying the evidence. Goodell punishing the team so harshly for something that would be 100% within the rules if they filmed from another position that the general public thought it to be far worse than it actually was. Forcing Kraft and Belichick to apologize in front of all the other owners when everyone knows that many other teams were doing exactly the same thing. Years upon years upon years of the team getting bashed to death by the general public and the media and all their accomplishments dragged through the mud. After all that they should simply buckle under and admit to something which they don't think they did in the first place?
 
Felger isn't coming after this from a standpoint of what is right for the team. If they were to admit to such things, he would immediately move the goal posts. We have years worth of him doing this. Don't think that this would be any different. Heck, he's demanding the league punish both the team and Belichick at this point, despite the report absolving them of wrong doing.
 
Belichick did nothing wrong, nor is he accused of doing anything wrong in the Wells report, right?  I wasn't so sure of that last January, but it's evident that even the most controlling of Head coaches leave the football "conditioning" left up to the starting QB.
 
Kraft's only culpability is just being head of an organization that had McNally sneaking balls into the bathroom to deflate them after they'd been signed off by the Ref.  Not a big deal, since he's only a part time employee, but that's where the $25,000 fine comes in, and maybe 2 fines for two employees.  There would/should be no draft pick forfeiture unless Goodell feels that the Patriots did not fully cooperate with the investigation, and the feeling is that they Patriots did not make McNally available for an interview, AFTER Wells finally got the text messages.
 
Brady is guilty of being "more probable than not of a general awareness" of the football deflation.  All he had/has to say is that, yes, he likes the balls soft, and that, yes, he has given these two guys some grief in the past when he ended up with balls inflated too much.  He should also add that while he never assumed they'd ever go to lengths of deflating balls after they'd been signed by the ref, he understands the position that he put McNally and Jastremski in, given his (Brady's) stature within the organization.  And that he never explicitly told them to "under-inflate," but never explicitly told them not to.. he didn't think that was his responsibility, but that, in light of what happened before the Colts' game, it should be the responsibility of every starting QB to set boundaries.
 
Yup.. absolute line of bullshT, but that's all SOME what to hear, especially Goodell.  Brady admits to NOW being "generally aware" that if you put too much pressure on a couple of toadies, they may go too far.  That is all Brady has to do.  it would have been better if he said it last January.  it would have been better if he had said that to the Wells commission (and maybe he did, and maybe this will come out if he appeals.), but there's still time to do it now, although time is almost up.
 
I used to work for a small company that depended upon a line of bank credit, secured by a percentage of the company's receivables.  When sales slowed, the receivables dropped and were in danger of falling below the amount required to continue securing the line of credit.  The CEO ranted and raved at the AR clerk that they needed a certain receivable amount.  She ended up fudging the receivables just enough to continue to secure the line of credit.  She was 23 years old and made $12 an hour.  If the bank had ever performed an audit, would the CEO have been criminally liable?  Probably not.  But he certainly was "more probable than not generally aware" of what was going on.
 
EDIT: sorry about this being off-topic, but this is the gist of what Felger is talking about in "admitting guilt."  His take is generally correct, as far as managing the consequences of an issue that has already been decided.  There is nothing to be gained by trying to appear to have been unjustly treated.  You just try to mitigate the damages and move on.
 

Gorton Fisherman

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 26, 2002
2,485
Port Orange, FL
Quiddity said:
They behaved with Spygate when it came to admitting their wrong doing. They accepted the punishment and we didn't see much if any of a fight from them (certainly in comparison with this). 
 
Yeah, that was the other crazy thing Felger was just plain wrong about today.  He kept insisting that the Patriots' response to the Spygate investigation was just like this one, or in his words, "deny, deny, deny, accuse".  But the fact is, the Patriots cooperated fully with the Spygate investigation.  They turned over all the evidence, videotapes, etc. that the league asked for, and when the (IMO excessive) punishment was handed down, they didn't object or appeal, they just accepted it.  Felger was saying that the Patriots didn't cooperate fully, and didn't "admit guilt", and that was why the league came down so hard on them.  Felger was 100% wrong about this.   Portnoy tried to point this out to him but Felger was having none of it; he just doubled down on the stupid.
 
Now it is certainly the case that the Patriots appear to think that the rule they violated in Spygate is a dumb rule (which I agree with).  This was clearly seen in Belichick's recent somewhat snippy comments about how all that happened in Spygate was that they recorded signals that were being made in public, in full view of 80,000 people, where there is clearly no reasonable expectation of privacy. (Which, by the way, is an excellent point, which is why you will never see Pats haters wanting to address it).   However the fact that Belichick may think it's a dumb rule is a completely separate issue from whether the team cooperated with the investigation.  Felger kept conflating the two for some strange reason.
 
All in all not a good day for Felger today.
 
edit: clarity