How Many of the Red Sox Managers of Your Lifetime do you have a Visceral Hatred for?

[TeddyBallgame9]

Don Zimmer, and it’s not even close. He did the least with the most and did it consistently for five years. ‘78 was an abomination. His mishandling of… everything was quite possibly the single worst managing year in the history of baseball. Valentine was a clown, Hobson managed a team with very little talent, and Jimy was an uninspired choice who stayed too long, not his fault. But Zimmer nearly ran the franchise into the ground with one of the better rosters of the past 50 years.

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

Holy crap, I just looked and Grady Little is 72 NOW. Assumed he was at least 60 at the time he was Red Sox manager. During a buddy Sox road trip to Baltimore back in 2003 the guys I was with yelled down "Grady" towards the terrace McDonalds at the Renaissance where he was eating with his young grandchildren. He gave a look up that said 'fuck you Sox fans interrupting our lunch.' Should have known then he just wasn't long for the grind that was the pre-2004 Red Sox.

To be fair, these were not well-behaved young men and I was designated driver for the 6-7 hour trek, however my cohorts made me think we were riding in the Cheech & Chong van.

But if this entry on Wiki is true, he is truly a good guy for turning his boner into support for baseball scouts:

When Little's contract was not renewed by the Red Sox, the independent minor league Brockton Rox announced plans to give away Grady Little bobble arm dolls to the first 1,000 fans to attend the May 29, 2004 game. The doll's arm bounces to simulate a manager's call to the bullpen, displays the date October 16, 2003 (the date of Game 7 of the ALCS) and Little's win total from the 2002 and 2003 seasons. The plans were canceled when Little objected to his likeness being used. In an agreement with the Rox, Little permitted the dolls to be sold with the provision that the money raised from the sale would go "to the Professional Baseball Scouting Foundation, which provides relief to retired scouts in financial peril".[5][6][7] The initial selling price was $38.36 (two times $19.18, 1918 being the last time the Red Sox won the World Series) but later auctions of autographed versions sold for as high as $255.[8]

 

[mikeford]

I wouldn't brake for Booby V crossing the street.

 

[GB5]

Maybe a side tangent to this question: who is a manger you either thought the Sox were going to hire or a competitors manager you wanted them to hire.

I remember Leyland’s name came up a bunch. I think I would have been ok with it.

For whatever reason I thought Scioscia would do well here. Though he ruined bullpens.

Earl Weaver was an older school favorite of mine. Ditto for Sparky Anderson.

 

[bob burda]

Don Zimmer.

Then. Now. Forever.

Valentine in 2nd place.

A bunch of guys tied for 2nd for me, but you have it right; Zimmer first and always. I should not have enjoyed Pedro grabbing him by the head and knocking his ass to the ground...but I did (though I did want Zim to get up and not be dead/broken). As a sports fan, my two great disappointments are the '72 USSR v. USA Olympic Basketball final, and '78....and Zimmer had a lot to do with '78, as we all know.

A good list of Zimmer's sins shows up in Gammo's "Beyond the 6th Game" and with or without Sabrmetrics and current foundational analytic understandings these are all still execrable. And while '78 was an outrage, an argument can be made that his performance in '77 was worse, as I think talent wise that was his best team. Yeah, the Yankees were a juggernaut in those years, but it could have been us and not them. He badly mismanaged the pitching staff in '77, the earlier noted slagging of Bill Campbell being just a small part, as he had more to work than in '78 and failed. The '77 team was maybe as loveable as the 2003 Red Sox, and they deserved better in the same way....other highlights:

-getting Fergie Jenkins traded for nothing after '77, netting the loss of a 123 ERA+ starter for something called John Poloni...this cost them in '78 as much as anything (Jenkins put up another 123
ERA+ season with a 5.0 WAR in '78 in TEX)
-playing Hobson at 3rd in '78 up to 54(!) errors, and only yanking him out of the lineup when Hobson demanded it, telling Zim he was killing the team (ya' think maybe?)
-inability to use a bench, incl. a complete failure to understand the platoon advantage unless your name was Bernie Carbo

Bobby Valentine was a buffoon, almost comic in his excesses, but I'm not convinced that team makes the playoffs with TIto and I don't think he cost the Red Sox any glory...but Zim is as responsible for Sox nation suffering in the late 70s as any one person could be. He single handedly squandered some of the best core talent assembled in franchise history.

 

[Bergs]

A bunch of guys tied for 2nd for me, but you have it right; Zimmer first and always. I should not have enjoyed Pedro grabbing him by the head and knocking his ass to the ground...but I did (though I did want Zim to get up and not be dead/broken). As a sports fan, my two great disappointments are the '72 USSR v. USA Olympic Basketball final, and '78....and Zimmer had a lot to do with '78, as we all know.

A good list of Zimmer's sins shows up in Gammo's "Beyond the 6th Game" and with or without Sabrmetrics and current foundational analytic understandings these are all still execrable. And while '78 was an outrage, an argument can be made that his performance in '77 was worse, as I think talent wise that was his best team. Yeah, the Yankees were a juggernaut in those years, but it could have been us and not them. He badly mismanaged the pitching staff in '77, the earlier noted slagging of Bill Campbell being just a small part, as he had more to work than in '78 and failed. The '77 team was maybe as loveable as the 2003 Red Sox, and they deserved better in the same way....other highlights:

-getting Fergie Jenkins traded for nothing after '77, netting the loss of a 123 ERA+ starter for something called John Poloni...this cost them in '78 as much as anything (Jenkins put up another 123
ERA+ season with a 5.0 WAR in '78 in TEX)
-playing Hobson at 3rd in '78 up to 54(!) errors, and only yanking him out of the lineup when Hobson demanded it, telling Zim he was killing the team (ya' think maybe?)
-inability to use a bench, incl. a complete failure to understand the platoon advantage unless your name was Bernie Carbo

Bobby Valentine was a buffoon, almost comic in his excesses, but I'm not convinced that team makes the playoffs with TIto and I don't think he cost the Red Sox any glory...but Zim is as responsible for Sox nation suffering in the late 70s as any one person could be. He single handedly squandered some of the best core talent assembled in franchise history.

Great post. Except for the bolded.

Also, Zim ran Carbo and Bill Lee off as well.

 

[Rosey Ruzicka]

None? The only one I came close to hating was Bobby Valentine.

This is my answer too. I just can't have a visceral hatred based on incompetence alone, only for a high level of douchbaggery, which puts Valentine at #1 for me.

 

[nighthob]

Nope. From what I've read of Higgins he was a pure racist who kept the Sox segregated and white for as long as he could. He was an integral part of the Sox sad legacy of racism. As we all know, managerial fuck-ups are part of the game, but racism and hatred shouldn't be. As a kid in the 50s, I really wasn't aware of the racism of the Sox, but as I got older I learned.

Joe Cronin was in charge until 1958. Now look up when Boston brought in its first African-American player.

 

[lars10]

All I know is that even after I was told that, you know, it is a bad look for a professional athlete to be tossing an 80 year old on the ground, I thought, "yeah, well, I wish Pedro had decked him harder."

What I've always hated about the 'poor Zimmer' take is that Zimmer charged him and swiped at Pedro with his left hand.. Pedro is basically backing up as Zimmer runs at him head first. If Pedro doesn't grab him by the head and use his momentum to throw him down.. what would have happened? Zimmer tackles him? Pedro actually throws a punch? Not sure what else he could have done there.

 

[cantor44]

Here is a list of the managers for the past 60 years, to help with our addled memories

View attachment 56956

For me, out of those, the guys I wouldn't walk up to and shake their hands at a bar would include:

Kasko
Zimmer
Johnny Mac
Butch Hobson Joe Morgan (it wasn't his fault but he was SO highly touted)
Jimy
Grady

Not Valentine because it wasn't his fault he was put into that role and had to follow Tito. He was what he was and he wasn't going to become someone else in one year in Boston


I started following in 1966

EDIT: I said Joe Morgan in error, meant Butch Hobson. No idea how I confused the two.

Funny thing is - I DID run into Zimmer in a bar (well, a restaurant, Lefty O'Doul's in San Francisco) in the mid-90s! I went up to him and he chatted with me and was really friendly!

 

[bankshot1]

Joe Cronin was in charge until 1958. Now look up when Boston brought in its first African-American player.

I know Sox history and have first hand memories of when Pumpsie Green was called up.
However the topic was Sox managers we viscerally hated. I discussed Higgins, the first Sox manager I watched manage and his racism. Joe Cronin had nothing to do with Higgins and his well documented racist comments. But thanks for interjecting your rememberances of my childhood memories of Pinky Higgins they really were very useful.

 

[patinorange]

It’s Zimmer. Just cuz Bill Lee.

 

[Wallball Tingle]

Love it. Where’d you go to college?

Yale. I usually don't mention it unless directly asked a) in order to not be a douche and b) because I think it implies I should be a better, more interesting poster than I am. Since the door's open, I DID get accepted to Harvard, though.

How 'bout yourself?

And once again, Grady Little made me/us super sad that one time, and I'm still mad!

 

[Sandwich Pick]

The players really hated Joe Kerrigan. Lou Merloni had a good story. They were on the road and a few of them were at the hotel bar. Kerrigan stops by and says he’d pick up a drink before heading up to bed. After he leaves they ordered Louis XIII on his tab.

Kerrigan continued that with the Yankees.

I remember reading in Torre's book that both Giambi and Pavano nearly got into a bar fight with Kerrigan on separate occasions. Torre's response was basically "Why are you out drinking with the players?"

EDIT: Found it

 

[SumnerH]

None. 2004 released me from such hatred. I can even laugh at Grady now.

 

[Van Everyman]

A bunch of guys tied for 2nd for me, but you have it right; Zimmer first and always. I should not have enjoyed Pedro grabbing him by the head and knocking his ass to the ground...but I did (though I did want Zim to get up and not be dead/broken). As a sports fan, my two great disappointments are the '72 USSR v. USA Olympic Basketball final, and '78....and Zimmer had a lot to do with '78, as we all know.

A good list of Zimmer's sins shows up in Gammo's "Beyond the 6th Game" and with or without Sabrmetrics and current foundational analytic understandings these are all still execrable. And while '78 was an outrage, an argument can be made that his performance in '77 was worse, as I think talent wise that was his best team. Yeah, the Yankees were a juggernaut in those years, but it could have been us and not them. He badly mismanaged the pitching staff in '77, the earlier noted slagging of Bill Campbell being just a small part, as he had more to work than in '78 and failed. The '77 team was maybe as loveable as the 2003 Red Sox, and they deserved better in the same way....other highlights:

-getting Fergie Jenkins traded for nothing after '77, netting the loss of a 123 ERA+ starter for something called John Poloni...this cost them in '78 as much as anything (Jenkins put up another 123
ERA+ season with a 5.0 WAR in '78 in TEX)
-playing Hobson at 3rd in '78 up to 54(!) errors, and only yanking him out of the lineup when Hobson demanded it, telling Zim he was killing the team (ya' think maybe?)
-inability to use a bench, incl. a complete failure to understand the platoon advantage unless your name was Bernie Carbo

Bobby Valentine was a buffoon, almost comic in his excesses, but I'm not convinced that team makes the playoffs with TIto and I don't think he cost the Red Sox any glory...but Zim is as responsible for Sox nation suffering in the late 70s as any one person could be. He single handedly squandered some of the best core talent assembled in franchise history.

Butch Hobson had—checks notes—fifty-four errors? In one season? Did he have 7000 chances?!?

In the Complete Handbook of Baseball, I remember it saying that Zim had a metal plate in his head.

 

[MFYankees]

Butch Hobson had—checks notes—fifty-four errors? In one season? Did he have 7000 chances?!?

In the Complete Handbook of Baseball, I remember it saying that Zim had a metal plate in his head.

Yes, Zim's metal plate is from a beaning he took when he was playing for the Brooklyn Dodgers.

 

[nighthob]

I know Sox history and have first hand memories of when Pumpsie Green was called up.
However the topic was Sox managers we viscerally hated. I discussed Higgins, the first Sox manager I watched manage and his racism. Joe Cronin had nothing to do with Higgins and his well documented racist comments. But thanks for interjecting your rememberances of my childhood memories of Pinky Higgins they really were very useful.

Right, and you’re blaming the guy that didn’t even manage the Red Sox until the mid to late 50s for the actions of his despicable boss.

 

[reggiecleveland]

It is hard to comprehend when I go back, how bad Zimmer was. Find an uninjured 3b, pitch Lee, that was maybe the best Red Sox talent of my lifteime and that clown needed to just not fuck up one less game. then he becomes a beloved Yankee and tries to sucker Pedro. Fuck that guy.
Grady doesn't need saying.
Jimy and Kerrigan... prime Pedro and Nomar wasted

 

[Zedia]

Hobson was my favorite player as an 8 year old. Man, was I fucking dope.

 

[bankshot1]

Right, and you’re blaming the guy that didn’t even manage the Red Sox until the mid to late 50s for the actions of his despicable boss.

No I'm calling Higgins a racist all on his own, and one of the more despicable managers in Sox history, and one who I watched first hand, who was quoted as saying, words to the effect, (paraphrase) " a (N-word) will never play for me". I have no idea why you want to argue this point or my memory of it. Or why you are deflecting criticism of Higgins.

If you would like to discuss your impressions and visceral hatred of Joe Cronin as a Sox manager, (which after all is the forum topic) as I did about Pinky Higgins as a Sox manager, please do. However for you to insist my first hand recall and impressions of Higgins are incorrect is both off topic and wrong.

 

[Whoop-La White]

Hiring Valentine felt like an act of abuse directed at the fans for liking Francona more than ownership. It sabotaged the product on the field.

Loathed Jimy Williams. Not just his incompetent decisions but his refusal to be accountable in his evasive answers (“manager’s decision,” etc.) It seemed like he and Duquette were always at odds. Duquette would bring in interesting hitters and Williams insisted on playing fundamentally sound glove-types because those were his guys.

Hobson? Enh. He came with a bad taste because it was clear the popular Morgan was being rushed out the door. Two seasons when I wasn’t expecting much out of the team anyway.

Didn’t hate Little so much, in spite of his tactical issues. Maybe because the stench only lasted a year. It felt like he was always overthinking bullpen moves even up to that game, which was ironic because (as I recall) Timlin & Williamson were terrific in the playoffs that year. But I kept expecting them to turn into pumpkins.

Zimmer is before my time but from what I have read I would have loathed him.

 

[lexrageorge]

Zimmer ran off a bunch of players from the 1976-77 team, many of whom were members of the Buffalo Head gang. And all those trades came back to bite the team in the ass in 1978.

The 1978 playoff game was a travesty in managing. Left handed Jack Brohamer was the starter at third base against Guidry as Hobson had been mercifully moved to DH. Brohamer did not have the best season, and was awful against lefties. But Zimmer did not have any better options on the bench to start, and he could at least play a passable 3B.

In the bottom of the 7th, after Bucky Dent had dealt his big blow, Guidry have up a single to George Scott. Guidry was starting on three days rest and was not at his sharpest, having dodged a couple of bullets in the 6th inning. Bob Lemon brought in right hander Goose Gossage. And what does Zimmer do? He brings in right hander Bob Bailey to face the right handed pitcher! Brohamer at least had a 0.624 OPS against righties; more importantly, a 0.308 OBP. Bob Bailey, meanwhile, was 1-10 with 3 K's against right handed pitchers that season. After his final career at bat, he would finish the season 1-11 with 4K's against righties.

That idiotic piece of managing bit them in the ass again when Zimmer needed to put in a replacement at third. Now, Bailey had started one game at third for the Sox, but he had not been a regular at third in four years, and was used mostly as a (bad) DH in 1978. So the only other option was Frank Duffy. Come the 9th, the Sox start the inning a run down, with the right handed and light hitting Duffy due to lead off against the right handed Gossage. The only viable pinch hitting option remaining on the bench was Dwight Evans. Normally, that would have been a good option. But Evans was beaned in August and was suffering the linger affects of a concussion that Zimmer forced him to play through. Unable to see clearly while suffering from dizziness, Evans put up a 0.161/0.277/0.268/0.545 line in September with 1 home run before he was mercifully removed from the lineup the final week of September. He had no chance against Gossage and hit a weak fly ball on the first pitch. The out loomed large later in the inning.

 

[walt in maryland]

Hate is a very strong word to apply to a baseball manager. But my "strong dislike" list, after 55+ years of fandom, goes like this: Zimmer, Valentine, Hobson, McNamara, Little

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Hobson? Enh. He came with a bad taste because it was clear the popular Morgan was being rushed out the door. Two seasons when I wasn’t expecting much out of the team anyway.

I remember when Lou Gorman canned Morgan and hired Hobson the reason was, "The Yankees really wanted him." Which, if that was the truth, WTF Lou?

For me, I know my initial list was long, but I think that McNamara takes the cake. He completely screwed up that entire 1986 post season and ran Schiraldi into the ground by Game 6. And he never took ownership of any of his terrible decision: Buckner playing in the 10th inning, Mike Greenwell pinch hitting in the 8th when Don Baylor is standing right there, the complete and total misuse of the bullpen (I looked back and I'm pretty sure he used Stanley and Schiraldi and that was it. Sambito, Crawford and others were completely buried). Not only that but his lineup was stacked with players well over 30 and he had them play 140-150 games the entire year. No rest. And they were broken down by the end of the year. Dave Henderson played amazing because a. he ruled and b. he was rested.

I wasn't around for the Don Zimmer experience, but just the thought of John McNamara and his idiocy boils my blood.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

In case any of you old-timers were wondering...yes, I still hate Grady Little.

 

[bob burda]

Butch Hobson had—checks notes—fifty-four errors? In one season? Did he have 7000 chances?!?

In the Complete Handbook of Baseball, I remember it saying that Zim had a metal plate in his head.

I should have checked the record - it was actually only 43 errors…good for a .899 fielding %. This is also an absurd number of errors.

It actually looked worse than that. Even though Scott couldn’t cover any ground any more, he was very nifty with the glove on throws to 1b, and I’m sure he saved at least the other 11 errors I had thought was part of the total.

 

[Humphrey]

No I'm calling Higgins a racist all on his own, and one of the more despicable managers in Sox history, and one who I watched first hand, who was quoted as saying, words to the effect, (paraphrase) " a (N-word) will never play for me". I have no idea why you want to argue this point or my memory of it. Or why you are deflecting criticism of Higgins.

If you would like to discuss your impressions and visceral hatred of Joe Cronin as a Sox manager, (which after all is the forum topic) as I did about Pinky Higgins as a Sox manager, please do. However for you to insist my first hand recall and impressions of Higgins are incorrect is both off topic and wrong.

I was 10 at the time and even at that age I couldn't believe that someone who had done such a mediocre or bad job managing the Red Sox was promoted to GM.

 

[Humphrey]

Surprised there's been no love (or hate, in this case) for Ralph Houk.

More because of the malaise that surrounded the team from 1980-84 (and 85 too, when Johnny Mac took over), a very colorless and mediocre team (traded Lynn and Burleson for pennies on the dollar and, in effect, let Fisk become a free agent)
that he seemed to be content with sucking.

Supposedly he didn't like Tudor; and Tudor went on to have some great years w/the Cardinals.

He also let a guy, Roger LaFrancois, a journeyman to be sure; sit on his bench as a third catcher the entire 1982 season. The guy was never on the IL, never sent to Pawtucket; and batted 10 fucking times; 5 of which came in the last game of the season.

 

[4 6 3 DP]

I'll hate Grady until my last breath.

 

[Yaz4Ever]

None. I dislike Cora and think he's vastly overrated on this forum (sacrilege, I know). Felt the same about Farrell. Bobby Valentine was a joke, just not a funny one. I could go all the way back to the early 70s for managers who I remember, but I think 2004 washed away the hatred or ill will toward any of them.

I do, however, still hate Joe Buck even those he said one poetically beautiful thing in his ill-begotten career.

 

[Rasputin]

One quick question.

HOW DO YOU NOT HATE THESE MOTHERFUCKERS?

 

[ookami7m]

Bobby V can take a rocket to the sun. Just the lasting impression of a shit year and a half or so are the stories of Bobby’s spring training shenanigans. Fuck that smarmy guy.

I don’t hate Grady. He failed mightily. Choked what could have been an easy decision but I feel more sorry for him than rage.

the difference between incompetence and malevolence.

 

[Martin and Woods]

1. Don Zimmer
2. Don Zimmer
3. Don Zimmer

The mid-late 70's Sox should've won a couple World Series. He played guys he liked when he shouldn't have, and refused to play guys he didn't like when he should have (and then had them traded). When he later coached the Yankees, my then-girlfriend thought he was cute in a little-old-fat-bald-guy kinda way, and was horrified when Pedro tossed him. I shouted, "YES! I've been wanting to do that since 1978! Fuck him!" I was in the doghouse for a bit, but whatever. He completely mismanaged those outstanding teams, not just because he made moves that "didn't work out," but because he liked certain guys and disliked others. Fuck Don Zimmer.

Anyway, thankfully, I married her. She is absolutely my better half.

 

[Bergs]

1. Don Zimmer
2. Don Zimmer
3. Don Zimmer

The mid-late 70's Sox should've won a couple World Series. He played guys he liked when he shouldn't have, and refused to play guys he didn't like when he should have (and then had them traded). When he later coached the Yankees, my then-girlfriend thought he was cute in a little-old-fat-bald-guy kinda way, and was horrified when Pedro tossed him. I shouted, "YES! I've been wanting to do that since 1978! Fuck him!" I was in the doghouse for a bit, but whatever. He completely mismanaged those outstanding teams, not just because he made moves that "didn't work out," but because he liked certain guys and disliked others. Fuck Don Zimmer.

Anyway, thankfully, I married her. She is absolutely my better half.

You might wanna read the whole thread before commenting. That said, fuck yes.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

Born in 82, the only guys on that list for me are Valentine and Kerrigan. Even Kerrigan was decent enough as a pitching coach he was just frosty. I despised Valentine from the second they hired him.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

1. Don Zimmer
2. Don Zimmer
3. Don Zimmer

The mid-late 70's Sox should've won a couple World Series. He played guys he liked when he shouldn't have, and refused to play guys he didn't like when he should have (and then had them traded). When he later coached the Yankees, my then-girlfriend thought he was cute in a little-old-fat-bald-guy kinda way, and was horrified when Pedro tossed him. I shouted, "YES! I've been wanting to do that since 1978! Fuck him!" I was in the doghouse for a bit, but whatever. He completely mismanaged those outstanding teams, not just because he made moves that "didn't work out," but because he liked certain guys and disliked others. Fuck Don Zimmer.

Anyway, thankfully, I married her. She is absolutely my better half.

Well done.

 

[donutogre]

Yale. I usually don't mention it unless directly asked a) in order to not be a douche and b) because I think it implies I should be a better, more interesting poster than I am. Since the door's open, I DID get accepted to Harvard, though.

How 'bout yourself?

And once again, Grady Little made me/us super sad that one time, and I'm still mad!

Boston University, perhaps unsurprisingly. Lived a few blocks away from Fenway for four years during Pedro’s prime, and sadly just did not take advantage of it. Would go back and tell my younger self to do a lot of things differently but one of them would be to just hit a few more games.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Grady Little was given a lot of credit until you know when. He made one costly mistake that cost him his job. But if our team wins that game we don't get Francona and maybe not Schilling. If the Sox won the WS, Schilling probably goes to the Yanks. For me it's Zimmer because of the way he blew the 78 pennant not making trades to get bench help when a few were playing with injuries. Dewey, Hobson and some others. Kevin Kennedy got a division title and had a great second half in 96 and the Sox got close to the WC. Duquette didn't like him for some reason. I liked him. For me it's Zimmer and Kasko 2nd I guess. Darrell Johnson probably shouldn't have been fired in 76 but it happens when you're the defending AL champs and you have a losing record. A decent amount of fans including my Dad and baseball commentators believe Yaz got Dick Williams fired because he used to go whine to Yawkey behind his back. We could have kept him. All he wanted was a little discipline, and he went to success with 3 other teams as we know. And he didn't get fired by the A's, he just had to get away from Finley. My points are maybe there were some that shouldn't have been fired. But those are my two, Zimmah!! and Kasko. Oops forgot about Valentine, put him 2nd.

 

[jaytftwofive]

1. Don Zimmer
2. Don Zimmer
3. Don Zimmer

The mid-late 70's Sox should've won a couple World Series. He played guys he liked when he shouldn't have, and refused to play guys he didn't like when he should have (and then had them traded). When he later coached the Yankees, my then-girlfriend thought he was cute in a little-old-fat-bald-guy kinda way, and was horrified when Pedro tossed him. I shouted, "YES! I've been wanting to do that since 1978! Fuck him!" I was in the doghouse for a bit, but whatever. He completely mismanaged those outstanding teams, not just because he made moves that "didn't work out," but because he liked certain guys and disliked others. Fuck Don Zimmer.

Anyway, thankfully, I married her. She is absolutely my better half.

Agree Carbo and then Bill Lee for Stan Bleeping Papi. Fergey Jenkins was still a decent pitcher also who we could have kept. We got John Poloni???? I guess Zimmer was determined to get rid of Bill Lee's "Buffalo Heads".

 

[Archer1979]

Grady Little was given a lot of credit until you know when. He made one costly mistake that cost him his job. But if our team wins that game we don't get Francona and maybe not Schilling. If the Sox won the WS, Schilling probably goes to the Yanks. For me it's Zimmer because of the way he blew the 78 pennant not making trades to get bench help when a few were playing with injuries. Dewey, Hobson and some others. Kevin Kennedy got a division title and had a great second half in 96 and the Sox got close to the WC. Duquette didn't like him for some reason. I liked him. For me it's Zimmer and Kasko 2nd I guess. Darrell Johnson probably shouldn't have been fired in 76 but it happens when you're the defending AL champs and you have a losing record. A decent amount of fans including my Dad and baseball commentators believe Yaz got Dick Williams fired because he used to go whine to Yawkey behind his back. We could have kept him. All he wanted was a little discipline, and he went to success with 3 other teams as we know. And he didn't get fired by the A's, he just had to get away from Finley. My points are maybe there were some that shouldn't have been fired. But those are my two, Zimmah!! and Kasko. Oops forgot about Valentine, put him 2nd.

Made me go back to look up Darrell Johnson... The first year I really followed the Sox. The '75 team was one Jim Rice September broken wrist away from beating the Reds. His late game decisons in Game 7 somewhat proved that Sparky Anderson vastly outmanaged Johnson. Bill Lee said it best in the link below:

Red Sox pitcher Bill Lee had his criticisms, expressed in the immediate aftermath of the World Series: “Johnson has been falling out of trees all summer and landing on his feet.”

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/darrell-johnson/

 

[The Gray Eagle]

Grady completely fucked up the 2002 team, too. Everyone just forgets about that because it’s overshadowed by 03. Wasted Cy Young seasons from Lowe and Pedro and missed the playoffs with a 100 phythag win team. They lost pretty much every close game that year, just totally gutless.

THIS!
I can't believe the comments in this thread that imply that Little just made one big mistake-- he was terrible for his entire tenure. The 2002 team should have easily made the playoffs, but he had them out of the running by early September. The 2003 team was a juggernaut once the bullpen straightened itself out, but Little found a way to lose. He was badly over his head from day one, and wrecked what should have been 2 great seasons.

 

[BoSox Rule]

Little was a bad manager but I’m pretty sure he’s a good person and the players loved him. I can’t really say I hate him.
Valentine is an awful manager, awful person, awful self promoter, and can F off.

 

[jaytftwofive]

THIS!
I can't believe the comments in this thread that imply that Little just made one big mistake-- he was terrible for his entire tenure. The 2002 team should have easily made the playoffs, but he had them out of the running by early September. The 2003 team was a juggernaut once the bullpen straightened itself out, but Little found a way to lose. He was badly over his head from day one, and wrecked what should have been 2 great seasons.

Yes 2002 was disappointing. I keep forgetting. Two 20 game winners. I thought they would make the playoffs either way until late August of course.

 

[jaytftwofive]

THIS!
I can't believe the comments in this thread that imply that Little just made one big mistake-- he was terrible for his entire tenure. The 2002 team should have easily made the playoffs, but he had them out of the running by early September. The 2003 team was a juggernaut once the bullpen straightened itself out, but Little found a way to lose. He was badly over his head from day one, and wrecked what should have been 2 great seasons.

I remember listening to a game in June of 2003 against the Phillies(I live in the Philly area now). Nomar went 6 for 6 but Little didn't bring in a lefty to face Thome and he homered to tie the game. I was not happy. I watched at home when the bullpen blew a 5-3 lead and Todd Pratt hit a game winning home run. I guess I have a short memory of Little. I thought the players did like him though. Not a manager to hate I guess.

 

[Leskanic's Thread]

It does seem to get lost in the mists of time a little that one of the big reasons Grady's blunder in Game 7 hurt so much is because we all knew something like that was coming. It felt like he always fucked up something in close games, especially via bullpen management.

I'm reading "visceral hatred" to mean "visceral sports hatred"...I don't wish ill on the man or his family. But I'll put Grady in that category. I still hold Game 6 against McNamara, though he did get us to the brink of a title, so I waffle on whether he is on the list. I'm old enough to have been alive when Zimmer was manager, but was under 2 years old when his tenure ended...still, I was raised good and proper by my parents with a healthy hatred of his performance. His later presence as a curmudgeonly mascot for the 90s Yankees only solidified that. #pedrodidnothingwrong

 

[joe.daggett]

For me Zimmer gets the nod, hands down, for reasons exhaustively detailed upthread. All the contenders fall short of his special, historic level of incompetence, though in my mind Johnson ('75) and McNamara ('86) will always have much to answer for.

Let's not allow recency bias to blind us to the fact that our team had some idiot managers in the more distant past. The thread title specifies "in your lifetime," and I'm 82. So I was alive but not aware when Joe McCarthy forged a special record of stupidity in 1948.

By 1948 McCarthy the one-time genius "push-button manager" of the Cubs and then the Yankees in their Second Dynasty in the 1930's, was a faded shell of what he'd been in his days of great success.
He subscribed to a lot of notions and superstitions, groundless and unique to him, that were laughable to his players, though such was his stature, still, that nobody would have dared challenge him. Everybody smoked in those days, and one of McCarthy's quirky beliefs was that any man who smoked a pipe was a sedate pussy who could never be a manly, competitive baseball player. The story is told that one of his players, smoking a pipe, was told that McCarthy was approaching and in terror stuck the lighted pipe in his pocket, where it burned a hole in his trousers.

More important, probably, was the fact that he had become a full-blown alcoholic; not just a heavy drinker but a sodden lush.

How, apart from these factors -- age-based decline and alcoholism -- are we to account for the fact that in a one-game playoff with Cleveland for the AL pennant in 1948 McCarthy gave the starting nod to the pedestrian Denny Galehose...with both Mel Parnell and Ellis Kinder rested and anxious to take the mound?

The result was predictable, and I can still remember how upset my dad was, though I didn't quite understand why. Cleveland took the flag and went on to beat the Braves in the Series, and Cleveland hasn't won it since.

So, fellow SOSH'ers, when we're listing execrable Red Sox managers, let's not forget Marse Joe.

 

[jaytftwofive]

For me Zimmer gets the nod, hands down, for reasons exhaustively detailed upthread. All the contenders fall short of his special, historic level of incompetence, though in my mind Johnson ('75) and McNamara ('86) will always have much to answer for.

Let's not allow recency bias to blind us to the fact that our team had some idiot managers in the more distant past. The thread title specifies "in your lifetime," and I'm 82. So I was alive but not aware when Joe McCarthy forged a special record of stupidity in 1948.

By 1948 McCarthy the one-time genius "push-button manager" of the Cubs and then the Yankees in their Second Dynasty in the 1930's, was a faded shell of what he'd been in his days of great success.
He subscribed to a lot of notions and superstitions, groundless and unique to him, that were laughable to his players, though such was his stature, still, that nobody would have dared challenge him. Everybody smoked in those days, and one of McCarthy's quirky beliefs was that any man who smoked a pipe was a sedate pussy who could never be a manly, competitive baseball player. The story is told that one of his players, smoking a pipe, was told that McCarthy was approaching and in terror stuck the lighted pipe in his pocket, where it burned a hole in his trousers.

More important, probably, was the fact that he had become a full-blown alcoholic; not just a heavy drinker but a sodden lush.

How, apart from these factors -- age-based decline and alcoholism -- are we to account for the fact that in a one-game playoff with Cleveland for the AL pennant in 1948 McCarthy gave the starting nod to the pedestrian Denny Galehose...with both Mel Parnell and Ellis Kinder rested and anxious to take the mound?

The result was predictable, and I can still remember how upset my dad was, though I didn't quite understand why. Cleveland took the flag and went on to beat the Braves in the Series, and Cleveland hasn't won it since.

So, fellow SOSH'ers, when we're listing execrable Red Sox managers, let's not forget Marse Joe.

Yes my father always brought that up. He remembered. It should have been a Subway Series, or T Series.

 

[jaytftwofive]

It is hard to comprehend when I go back, how bad Zimmer was. Find an uninjured 3b, pitch Lee, that was maybe the best Red Sox talent of my lifteime and that clown needed to just not fuck up one less game. then he becomes a beloved Yankee and tries to sucker Pedro. Fuck that guy.
Grady doesn't need saying.
Jimy and Kerrigan... prime Pedro and Nomar wasted

I read in a few books how Yaz pleaded with Zimmer to put Lee back in the rotation. He still wouldn't. All because Lee said Zimmer looked like a gerbil.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

THIS!
I can't believe the comments in this thread that imply that Little just made one big mistake-- he was terrible for his entire tenure. The 2002 team should have easily made the playoffs, but he had them out of the running by early September. The 2003 team was a juggernaut once the bullpen straightened itself out, but Little found a way to lose. He was badly over his head from day one, and wrecked what should have been 2 great seasons.

I think Little was the right call in 2002 when they had few other options (they hired him in spring training). He knew some of the players from his time as Jimy's bench coach and I think his rep as a player's coach/manager helped salve any damage Joe Kerrigan's tenure wrought. He was not cut out to manage a modern team like the Sox wanted to be. He was bad enough in 2002 to not be brought back. Had they been able to hire Billy Beane, he absolutely would have fired Little that winter and installed his own guy for 2003. Theo didn't have the same clout so he had to wait around for an opportunity that would be palatable to the public and more importantly, to the clubhouse. Game 7 provided that opportunity, but I honestly believe Little was gone regardless. Only winning the World Series could have saved him, and even that might have been a close call.