Not with the Celtics. If it comes to light that he violated team rules so egregiously where a significant suspension is in play, he should be out the door.
Ime Udoka suspended for the 22-23 season
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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He is the head coach of the team. He cannot have a relationship with a team employee without such a power dynamic.
It doesn't matter how good he is at coaching basketball. Being the head of an organization means taking on responsibilities beyond some core set of skills, and one of those responsibilities is not abusing your position to get laid. This does not strike me as particularly complicated.
I don’t accept the notion that just because Ime held a senior position at her place of enployment that automatically means the relationship had a non-consensual element.
Now if he uses that position to manipulate her into accepting his advance then okay we’re into a more serious conversation - but that’s not necessarily the case.
That’s another thing - it’s just assumed because he’s the male that he was the peruser not the persuee. It’s quite possible she went after him whether it be for genuine attraction or for professional motives. In such a scenario - submitting to such advances shouldn’t constitute a grave misjudgment - to menothing more than just a minor poor choice
But even if we assume for arguments sake that the relationship was 100% consensual and hell maybe it even results in a beautiful family…the celts and other companies have rules in place to avoid any types of situations where power dynamics/sexual harassment etc etc etc can come into play. So he still (likely, based on current reporting) broke a pretty major violation.
I suppose you could argue that if he was having a quiet, consensual affair with someone completely outside the basketball ops realm of the Celtics, while crude, a suspension might be an overreaction. I have a feeling that's not the case.
Uhhh, what?
I did not say what you are saying I said. Feel free to read the thread.
And you used the term “a simple affair”, I quoted you.
Aside from that, great post and welcome to SoSH.
This is very disappointing on multiple levels. Even if Udoka coaches this season, I don’t see him as coach in a couple of years. Amazing how organizational dynamics can change so quickly.
Getting to the finals is a precious thing and this highlights how precarious sustained excellence can be.
Getting to the finals is a precious thing and this highlights how precarious sustained excellence can be.
Agreed as to the rules. So fine him. Unless he was a serial offender, I'm not sure why Ime deserves to be both suspended and humiliated for what was presumably a private consensual matter.
My original point was that people in far more prominent positions have been fired over “simple affairs”, so it’s certainly not unprecedented that a suspension is looming for Ime.
And I think it was thrown around very casually that Udoka should be “shitcanned” as if he’s not an actual human being but a conduit to a team winning a championship. If this was a pattern of predatory behavior, than of course I think he should lose his job. But based what’s out there right now, I think a man making a mistake is worth a second chance here in Boston. Title aspirations have nothing to do with it.
The problem with this is that the power imbalance creates an implicit threat of manipulation, whether there's an explicit quid pro quo or not. Given the current league and national environment around this stuff, it's understandable that the Celtics would treat this as a major transgression and want to get ahead of it.
If it is a full season you need to just fire him. You can't go through a season without a real head coach if you are a contending team.
If they do suspend him all season, be prepared for some salary dumps. They aren't paying the luxury tax for a coachless team with a major injury in Gallo and a questionable Rob.
That’s not how this works. As a high ranking employee he has all the power over any other employee, whether an office staffer, player, cheerleader, or intern. Doesn’t matter if he initiated or the other person initiated, he has the responsibility as a leader NOT to take advantage of his power.
take three minutes and read about #MeToo. This is exactly that, assuming these rumors are accurate
Agreed. That seems like the best case scenario based on what Shams tweeted but would probably not warrant the consideration of a year-long suspension that’s being reported. Odds are that there is something more unseemly about this in addition to a “letter of the law” violation of team rules.
Well, presumably that is what they would be doing. “Fining” him for the season and not paying him. They can’t just take away his entire salary and say “but we still want you to coach”.
With regards to the “humiliation”, I mean, he brought that on himself doing what he did in a high profile job.
Unless the person was unrelated to the team, I don't think you could. He's the head coach of the basketball team. The other party is not. He absolutely should not have a sexual relationship with anyone significantly associated with the team. This seems like a bright line.
This will NEVER happen, but I can dream: Boston Globe headline next week: "Larry Bird IS Walking Through That Door."
There's also a possibility this isn't his first such rodeo, which could play into things.
And "consent" doesn't help him much. As one of the top few in the entire organization of dozens (hundreds), you can't do this.
That's because we don't know all of the facts.
I'm sure the Cs aren't thrilled about paying, what, $200M in salaries this year and have to give their head coach a long suspension? Maybe he lied about it when asked or he falsified documents or he was using company funds to facilitate. Maybe he pushed for her promotion after having the relationship.
We currently have no idea and I'm sure when (if?) the story comes out, the facts will be proportionate to the team policy violations.
Oh for fucks sake. Nothing is assumed because he is male. He is the head coach of the Boston Fucking Celtics. He is one of the faces of the franchise, makes millions of dollars a year, and is in a position of power and influence in the organization. That comes with responsibility — which is why every fucking corporation in America has HR rules around this. Regardless of who made the advance, he fucked up.
I find it strange that people are choosing to weigh in on consequences for Ime's actions when we have no idea what transpired. We simply have to wait for more information.
Just to add on to what RG33 says, this is not the way companies do business anymore. Corporations have learned that when a senior person approaches a subordinate person, there is no way to have a truly consensual relationship as the senior person wields too much power over the subordinate, which, again as corporations have learned, opens the corporations up to liability.
This isn't about morality; it's about liability. And clearly Ime's actions opened up the Cs to significant liability if the rumours are accurate.
Oh I agree with this 100%. He's an idiot and regardless of who it was with what he did is wrong. My point was that if, for lack of a better example, it was someone in accounting, a year-long suspension is probably not on the table. It is likely someone closely related to basketball operations, and that's a major problem.
This is a lot of excuse-making to try to justify keeping Ime in the job. This is about judgment. Whether the "pursuer" or the "pursuee", he allowed this to happen. When you are hired into one of 30 NBA head coaching jobs, one of the things you should know is not to engage in any romantic or sexual relationship with an employee of the organization. His failure is a gargantuan lapse in judgment, one that puts the organization's trust in Ime to the test.
No. Because that person in accounting knows that if they say No, they are risking future promotions and success in the organization.
I find it stranger that in my original post, I opened with the line, "There is a lot we don't know..." yet you manage to ignore that.
Or if they say yes, then their colleagues in accounting might get different treatment. Or if they say yes, and it's found out and Ime is suspended, that employee might be fired for violating policy or treated differently by their colleagues or direct management. Or... a dozen other reasons.
If he coaches this season it means this whole thing is nearly water under the bridge and I woudl expect him to be coach until he fails the team in regards to wins and losses. People are easy to forgive and forget.
Yeah, the set of people who have sufficient heft to not feel like it's a worrisome 'power dynamic' with Ime is roughly:
- Wyc & Pagliuca
- Stevens
- Jayson Tatum
- Mike Zarren
I guess you can argue Austin Ainge, Jaylen, and possible some lower-profile owners. But that's the list. He has a TON of juice/authority...almost everyone in the organization is de facto going to feel pressure around their interactions with him
Fair, I quoted your post but didn't mean to single you out. It was meant towards the board in general.
“Take advantage” … if he’s being persued he’s not necessarily taking advantage.
If this is what it appears to be then it’s so blown out of proportion it’s not even funny. And it’s a dramatic overreaction that’s going to hurt this franchise for many years to come.
Not to say IME is totally “blameless” but it’s not the dramatic misstep that it’s made out to be. He hit it off with an attractive co-worker. As I said before she may even have persued him.
Sexual harrasment or Sexual assault… totally different animal. That should be immediate termination. But if it’s a totally consensual relationship where the female states no undue pressure or manipulation whatsoever on Imes part then this is a non-issue. 5 games. Fine him. Move on
What’s the benefit to suspending him a year but not firing him? Seems like he’s probably lost the trust of some in the org if they are considering such a lengthy punishment, and it’s a major distraction. Why not just cut him loose? Can always reevaluate in a year a la Cora, I guess….but I’m struggling to understand why they’d want him back.
Maybe the length of the suspension is more about this being strike three against Ime and not strike one. We don’t know when ownership was made aware of the relationship. Ime could have originally lied and denied the whole thing when confronted, or was told to end the relationship months ago but didn’t.
If he coaches well this season. Has he lost the locker room? Wasn't his whole thing that everyone follows the rules, being a tough disciplinarian? If I had a boss that was like that, and they did something like this, I'd have a hard time taking him seriously.
There's enough talent here to win regardless of coaching, but not enough to punch through to the highest level.
Maybe a bit off-topic, but this has me wondering how the Jeanie Buss/Phil Jackson relationship would have been covered today.
it is still “taking advantage” whether the powerful one chases the other one, or the other one approaches the powerful one.
the person in charge has to refrain.
Again: read up about #MeToo. Three minutes is all I ask. Or read this thread more carefully and ask yourself if there is a reason your opinion is in the minority here. It’s not that we are ganging up on you.
All of these people would also be super inappropriate. But I think we're essentially on the same page.
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Had a snarky post ready, realized that a different poster had the initial reference to "simple affair", not you. Apologies to you.
You’re begging the question.
The fact that you’re assuming your imagined premise with *no details* about what actually occurred says more about your own prejudices than anything else.
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This is a pretty gross post in a lot of respects, but also none of this matters. If the Celtics have a Code of Conduct and if this was a Code of Conduct violation (which reports seem to indicate) then Ime needs to be punished. You can't have a Code of Conduct that says these kinds of relationships are not allowed and then ignore the Code when something like this happens.
And Codes of Conduct exist precisely to avoid the hair splitting you are engaging in in your post over who pursued who. You just can't do it, period.
I run investigations into these kinds of relationships at my company more often than I'd like to. If this happened here, the person in the leadership position would be fired, period. I'm not saying that's the right punishment here, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility either.
We all learned this with Ben Wyatt and Leslie Knope during the episode "The Trial of Leslie Knope". Hopefully Ime can come up with some rad stop motion animation or maybe a followup to the Cones of Dunshire.
"Celtics rules of engagement are written for your safety and for that of your team. They are not flexible, nor am I. Is that clear?" Wyc G, probably.
I don't mean to make light using an effing top gun quote, but it's the first thing that came to mind when reading your post and nodding in vigorous agreement. The whole point of these rules is to avoid messy grey areas.
I'm betting we're going to see Udoka resign "to work on personal issues I need to pay attention to" no later than Saturday.
Keeping him on ice for a year doesn't seem to serve anyone well -- the organization, the players, the fans, the press, and the person with whom Udoka was having the inappropriate relationship.
Keeping him on ice for a year doesn't seem to serve anyone well -- the organization, the players, the fans, the press, and the person with whom Udoka was having the inappropriate relationship.
I'm just so disappointed that another successful, powerful man just couldn't keep his pants on. Like, how many women work for the Celtics or are spouses or children of other Celtics? It's really not that fucking hard. It's a big ocean with lots of fish.
I get that sexual harassment and power relationships is a new thing in the last 30-40 years for people to care about. Guys in their 70s didn't grow up with it. But Ime did, and a lot of the demo here is middle-aged guys or younger who did also. People should fucking know better. Just horrible judgment.
I get that sexual harassment and power relationships is a new thing in the last 30-40 years for people to care about. Guys in their 70s didn't grow up with it. But Ime did, and a lot of the demo here is middle-aged guys or younger who did also. People should fucking know better. Just horrible judgment.
If the coach is involved with someone that he has direct supervision of, he’s probably going to be suspended for the entire year, at a minimum. If the coach is involved with someone in another part of the organization, where he doesn’t have direct supervision, but where he obviously has a lot of cachet because he is the head coach of the team, he’s probably looking at a good sized suspension, maybe something like 20 games.