I would love to watch this forum run an NBA franchise. Each B2B road loss would have amusing consequences. There would be no process. Just results.
It's a lot of bad luck. The 2018 team very well may have won a title if Hayward and Kyrie were healthy, and it was impossible to predict that Kyrie go full Kyrie in 2019. Essentially flipping a broken IT for Kyrie was slick as hell at the time. I can't blame Ainge for Hayward and Horford walking either.Toronto fired their coach who just won CotY. What have you done for me lately? Ainge has done anything well since he drafted Tatum. Some of it is just bad luck, but it is what it is.
Getting to 2018 ECF without KI and GH wasn't over-performing?He's had multiple top players. People simultaneously talk about how great the C's are while also down talking the roster. It's funny. The C's have not overperformed the last few years. They performed as expected. The only year you can argue they overperformed was the IT year.
I agree with most of this. CBS and the Celts have been snake bit since Gordo snapped his leg. They are consistently losing games in the last 3-4 minutes they had been winning the last few years and that has to eat away at team morale and build on panic and poor game decisions, At this point managing the adversity aspect of an underperforming team and keeping them on the same page and playing hard until they get healthy and a real rotation established is important. I may be wearing emerald colored glasses but I don't think they are that far away (add a wing that can hit a 3) with an an almost healthy kemba and Marcus along with a ticking TL, this team can do some damage in the post-season.It's a lot of bad luck. The 2018 team very well may have won a title if Hayward and Kyrie were healthy, and it was impossible to predict that Kyrie go full Kyrie in 2019. Essentially flipping a broken IT for Kyrie was slick as hell at the time. I can't blame Ainge for Hayward and Horford walking either.
I have been very on team "Stevens is a plus, not a problem." I also fully agree that this roster has holes if the goal is to compete for a championship.Stevens has proven that he is a good coach. The only reason to fire him would be if you think he has lost the locker room. It doesn’t seem like he has lost the team but it is certainly discouraging to hear him make the same comments about ball movement and effort after every loss.
I agree with all of this.I meant it more generally. That it's insane for a team that is 20-20 after going to 3 of the last 4 ECF to have a fanbase engaged in discussions about whether the Coach and/or GM need to go. Maybe it's the dumb, title or tank mentality, but this is still clearly one of the best setups in the league, and it is that solely because of the GM and Coach's work over the last 6 years. We aren't some LA style destination, they cobbled together borderline contenders out of scraps.
NOAfter another loss to a one of the worst teams in the NBA, do Ainge and the owners even consider firing Stevens? I don't mean because of this loss in particular, of course. Does it even cross their mind as an option? Or is there a shared view that the problems of this team are a result of a variety of factors, and coaching is not one of the main ones, or is not a factor at all? Or a minor factor?
And do the owners ever look at Ainge and consider letting him go?
I'm guessing that they are all in it for the long haul and Ainge and Stevens are seen positively enough by the ownership group so as to avoid reactionary moves. But from my perspective, the team is not deep enough (which is on Ainge) and they are the talent they do have should be performing better on the court (which is on the players and the coaches). So while I would not be quick with the trigger, I would be at least thinking about whether a move made sense.
I think everyone would be in agreement on both (a) flawed roster; and (b) that the team should be better than 20-20. As you correctly point out, it's not like their schedule has been exceptionally difficult.I think everyone is in agreement that the C's have a very flawed roster. But does anyone around here believe it's more flawed than Detroit, Orlando, Washington, Cleveland, the Knicks, Atlanta or Sacramento?
Because we're 6-7 against those teams.
At least we have Houston and Minnesota coming up in a couple weeks, I guess.
This league is filled with good and very good coaches who were fired due to the organization simply needing a change in direction. I’ve placed the majority of the blame on Ainge two of the past three seasons.....first with accumulating too much individual talent with players who need the ball and now with two little talent with players who you don’t want to have the ball. He’s turned over legit NBA shot makers in Hayward, Rozier, and Morris without replacing their offensive firepower.Stevens has proven that he is a good coach. The only reason to fire him would be if you think he has lost the locker room. It doesn’t seem like he has lost the team but it is certainly discouraging to hear him make the same comments about ball movement and effort after every loss.
I think we can also agree that the Celtics over the past few years have had these circumstances come up a lot (Hayward's leg, Kyrie, playoff injuries) and though these are not really anybody's fault, fan frustration is a natural outcome when it keeps happening.I think everyone can also agree on the fact that this season has some unusual and potentially extenuating circumstances that will make it difficult to make an objective judgment on where this team really stands. And that this team's future is tied directly and inexorably to the progress that their 2 young All-Stars make in the coming years.
When I stared this thread (over a month ago, mind you), it wasn't about calling for firing Brad. I don't want that to happen right now, and don't think it's going to. It was meant to start a discussion about his coaching, in game decisions, rotations, etc. I still want to know why a guy like Nesmith cant' see the floor while Grant and Semi puke all over themselves night after night, for example.I think everyone would be in agreement on both (a) flawed roster; and (b) that the team should be better than 20-20. As you correctly point out, it's not like their schedule has been exceptionally difficult.
I think everyone can also agree on the fact that this season has some unusual and potentially extenuating circumstances that will make it difficult to make an objective judgment on where this team really stands. And that this team's future is tied directly and inexorably to the progress that their 2 young All-Stars make in the coming years.
I also think everyone should agree that we may have expected too much of Tatum by anointing him as an automatic Top 10 player in the league for 2021; he ain't there yet. I do think he gets there, but it's still way early.
The problem is that jettisoning Stevens solely due to underperformance this oddball season could easily cause far more problems than it solves, both short term and long term. Anyone that disagrees should look at teams that are constantly jettisoning coaches at the first sign of trouble; more often than not, it bites them back. The Sixers may be an exception, as it's clear Embiid and Simmons needed different coaching. But I don't think this season's Celtics team is a good comp at all to last season's 76'ers.
My own view is that the pundits are predicting a shit-ton of player movement this coming offseason. And with a TPE and some tradeable assets (maybe not gold assets, but at least some silver in there), Ainge should be able to at least upgrade some of the #4 through #8 spots on the roster. And between improvements from the J's and likely R Williams as well, that may be enough in the next year or two to vault the Celtics to the next level of contender status.When I stared this thread (over a month ago, mind you), it wasn't about calling for firing Brad. I don't want that to happen right now, and don't think it's going to. It was meant to start a discussion about his coaching, in game decisions, rotations, etc. I still want to know why a guy like Nesmith cant' see the floor while Grant and Semi puke all over themselves night after night, for example.
But if folks think Brad is the next Bill Belichick of basketball, and he just needs a better GM and better players, then I guess that's what it is. Hopefully, it'll come together in the next couple years, because if it doesn't, it won't matter as the J's are going to be taking their talents elsewhere when their current contracts expire, and chase the ring with another team. That's what I'm afraid of more than anything, and I think there is plenty of room for improvement from Danny to Brad to the players, I just felt like we needed a threat to discuss Brad's coaching at some point.
I agree that nothing is likely to happen any time soon. But you are delusional if you think that the option does not at least occur to the owners from time to time. I would guess they even discuss it, if not to quickly reject it. When the team plays mediocre ball for this long, I think it's impossible to believe that the owners never consider the most extreme option.NO
Stop this nonsense
They're not considering it.I agree that nothing is likely to happen any time soon. But you are delusional if you think that the option does not at least occur to the owners from time to time. I would guess they even discuss it, if not to quickly reject it. When the team plays mediocre ball for this long, I think it's impossible to believe that the owners never consider the most extreme option.
I'm sure they consider pretty much every possibility. That doesn't mean they didn't dismiss it in 0.2 seconds and have a really good laugh over it. GM's are pretty thorough. If the team somehow managed to miss the playoffs, I'm sure it will be brought up.They're not considering it.
Of course. Any responsible, large organization has succession strategy for every key person and evaluates routinely.I'm sure they consider pretty much every possibility. That doesn't mean they didn't dismiss it in 0.2 seconds and have a really good laugh over it. GM's are pretty thorough.
If the team somehow managed to miss the playoffs, I'm sure it will be brought up.
A separate question, If they finish with the 7 seed and lose the play in game or whatever, does that mean they are lottery bound?
Yeah, that was not at all what I said. Or anyone else in this thread said. You're tilting at windmills.Of course. Any responsible, large organization has succession strategy for every key person and evaluates routinely.
But this "omg if they shit the bed this year, Wyc's gonna DO SOMETHING" talk simply has to stop.
The ownership was briefed on possible outcomes good and bad. Brad and Danny sync constantly. None of this is a surprise to them. Weird season, weird results. They won't likely rip up the script right now because Joe from Quincy thinks that a shakeup is necessary.
If your point is "hey upper management and ownership routinely evaluates middle and line management, particularly when the results were less than forecast", fantastic. We agree that there's a greater than zero percent chance that big changes are made.Yeah, that was not at all what I said. Or anyone else in this thread said. You're tilting at windmills.
If the Cs miss the playoffs or lose in the first round, it would be irresponsible for ownership not to consider canning Brad and Danny. Even if only briefly.
The big wings up top zone is nice, but the main thing this team needs is to not suck executing their base defense.Brad, more zone please.
As of March 22nd, the Celtics have the 26th-ranked half-court defense, according to Synergy Sports Tech. Their man-to-man looks allow over one point per possession, give up a score on 45% of their possessions and have been lackluster in their energy and attention to detail.
When the C’s have been in big games and need to steal a few minutes on defense, they’ve gone to a stopgap measure, a morphing 2-3 zone.
Stevens is hardly the only coach to go to a zone. In fact, the Celtics are 8th in zone frequency, with only 4.1% of their defensive possessions lined up away from man-to-man. That’s far behind the league-leaders, Charlotte Hornets (14.1%) and Miami Heat (10.9%). What Stevens has embraced this year, that he hasn’t in the past, is using it within the flow of the game, not just in situations that would help thwart sideline inbound plays.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/3/28/22344587/in-the-zone-what-makes-boston-celtics-zone-defense-great-robert-williams-jaylen-brown-marcus-smart
Brad has gone with larger wings up top (JT/JB) which I like. TL at the 5 and Marcus/Grant at wing.
Hoping it gives the Jays a defensive breather and gives the opponent another look.The big wings up top zone is nice, but the main thing this team needs is to not suck executing their base defense.
Tatum and Smart have looked a bit better in that regard lately, so there’s hope.
Jaylen is definitely better in a zone as one of the high defenders. Hides his off-ball/rotation weaknesses.Hoping it gives the Jays a defensive breather and gives the opponent another look.
Would like to see JT, free safety, return to interrupting passing lanes again. Zone also frees up Jaylen to add some on-ball pressure with his long arms knowing that RobWilliams has his back at the rim.
Thanks for posting. Someone should tell CoachSpins that Brad won't be needing to steal any minutes with The Is anymore.Brad, more zone please.
As of March 22nd, the Celtics have the 26th-ranked half-court defense, according to Synergy Sports Tech. Their man-to-man looks allow over one point per possession, give up a score on 45% of their possessions and have been lackluster in their energy and attention to detail.
When the C’s have been in big games and need to steal a few minutes on defense, they’ve gone to a stopgap measure, a morphing 2-3 zone.
Stevens is hardly the only coach to go to a zone. In fact, the Celtics are 8th in zone frequency, with only 4.1% of their defensive possessions lined up away from man-to-man. That’s far behind the league-leaders, Charlotte Hornets (14.1%) and Miami Heat (10.9%). What Stevens has embraced this year, that he hasn’t in the past, is using it within the flow of the game, not just in situations that would help thwart sideline inbound plays.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/3/28/22344587/in-the-zone-what-makes-boston-celtics-zone-defense-great-robert-williams-jaylen-brown-marcus-smart
Brad has gone with larger wings up top (JT/JB) which I like. TL at the 5 and Marcus/Grant at wing.
I don't. I think Danny makes a major overhaul of the roster. Recent whispers from the media seem to be pointing at major changes in that regard instead of the coach.As the season circles the drain I'm beginning to think that CBS and the Celtics reach a "mutual decision" to part ways at the end of the season
I haven't listened yet, but hopefully he was anti-Danny . This roster needs a lot of love.On Toucher & Rich today Danny was very much pro-Brad.
A bit, mostly he (correctly) was pointing out that the players that are here need to play better.I haven't listened yet, but hopefully he was anti-Danny . This roster needs a lot of love.
As he should be publicly. Clearly, Brad hasn't done a good job this year but none of us would be surprised with a 55 win effort next year if the right moves are mad from a personnel standpoint. On that front, for the first time ever, I'm thinking Jaylen and/or Smart won't be completely off limits this year. Highly doubt Jaylen gets moved unless Danny feels he needs to go hard after Beal to keep Tatum happy but I think Smart is fair game.On Toucher & Rich today Danny was very much pro-Brad.
Except that we have tons of evidence from prior years that the players on it are pretty good, or at least a lot better than this.I'm getting a little tired of the excuses. Other teams have players out. Other teams don't have time to practice. Other teams are in the pandemic, too.
Maybe this team just isn't that good.
It’s a killer for contending, not for being a decent team.Whiffing on the past 2 low lottery picks was a killer; not really Stevens' fault.
I agree that I expect a major overhaul of the roster this offseason. If not, both seats (Ainge's and Stevens') could get very warm.
They really didn't. I've covered it before in many threads, but the last 2 picks (Nesmith/Langford) have performed right about as expected for 1.5 years of a #14 and .5 years of a #14, those aren't the type of picks that step in as contributors on good teams.Whiffing on the past 2 low lottery picks was a killer; not really Stevens' fault.
I agree that I expect a major overhaul of the roster this offseason. If not, both seats (Ainge's and Stevens') could get very warm.
This. There is absolutely no reason for this team to be under .500 two thirds of the way through the season. There have been a lot of moving pieces with injuries and COVID which hasn't helped, but they should still be better than a couple games under .500. I guess the green colored glasses view is that they started 8-3 and if they can get everyone healthy by the playoffs maybe they will gel and surprise, but that seems highly optimistic for several reasons.Except that we have tons of evidence from prior years that the players on it are pretty good, or at least a lot better than this.
The bar isn’t “better than the Nets”; it’s “above .500”. Not being able to do that is pathetic, and something is clearly wrong.
Yeah. Here's the list of teams with multiple all-stars:It’s a killer for contending, not for being a decent team.
Yes, we do. When will people open their eyes and see this? We are a 2 player team with very little hope of getting better if we stay as is.I'm tired of hearing about roster issues in the context of Brad. Do we have a worse roster than the Knicks, Spurs, Hornets, etc.? Because all of those teams are better than we are right now.
It's an interesting question where the Tatum/Brown combo stands among that list. Nets, Clippers, Lakers and Sixers have better tandems this year. Jazz arguably do as well. All have a much better supporting cast at this stage, especially given the huge regressions of Kemba and Smart.Yeah. Here's the list of teams with multiple all-stars:
Nets (Durant / Harden / Irving)
Clippers (Kawhi / George)
Lakers (LeBron / AD)
Sixers (Embiid / Simmons)
Suns (Booker / Paul)
Jazz (Mitchell / Gobert)
Celtics (Tatum / Brown)
The Celtics are the clear outlier. Everyone else is a top contender and they combine for a 196-90 (.685) record. Meanwhile, the Celtics are sitting here at 23-25 (.479). The supporting casts can't explain away all of that delta.
I don't think that lack of talent is a defense of Brad. I do think that Brad's history and his moves this year are a defense of Brad. I think the Ainge quote is right on. Yes Brad can tweak some things, but your best players have to play like it.... on both ends. Now, for some the answer is... fire the coach and hope the re-set gets better performance. For others (I'm on of these) the answer is... shake up your roster, bring in new faces and try to re-establish an identity around your stars. You can switch coaches, but I don't think Brad is the main problem.I'm tired of hearing about roster issues in the context of Brad. Do we have a worse roster than the Knicks, Spurs, Hornets, etc.? Because all of those teams are better than we are right now.
Shit, we've been beaten by the Wizards, the Pistons, the Kings, the Cavs, and on and on and on. How about their rosters?
This team's roster may not be good enough to win a title, or even make it to the ECF, but they sure as shit aren't a bottom 10 roster either. They are 12-18 in their last 30 games. That's bottom 10.
No we don't. There is no situation under which we are a worse roster than those teams right now in terms of talent an track record. Our top 2 are not only better, so are a number of our other players. Smart, Kemba, TL, Never Google would all be key rotation players for those teams.Yes, we do. When will people open their eyes and see this? We are a 2 player team with very little hope of getting better if we stay as is.
Well, that's partly because All-Stars mostly come from teams with winning records. Adebayo and Butler are an All-Star level duo whose team has struggled just as much as Boston's.Yeah. Here's the list of teams with multiple all-stars:
Nets (Durant / Harden / Irving)
Clippers (Kawhi / George)
Lakers (LeBron / AD)
Sixers (Embiid / Simmons)
Suns (Booker / Paul)
Jazz (Mitchell / Gobert)
Celtics (Tatum / Brown)
The Celtics are the clear outlier. Everyone else is a top contender and they combine for a 196-90 (.685) record. Meanwhile, the Celtics are sitting here at 23-25 (.479). The supporting casts can't explain away all of that delta.
Please, the Hornets are in a much better position going forward if Ball is 100%. We have the two best players who are already close to their peak with nothing else on the roster to improve us. We are relying on Brown or Tatum to take another leap and the odds of that are astronimical.I don't think that lack of talent is a defense of Brad. I do think that Brad's history and his moves this year are a defense of Brad. I think the Ainge quote is right on. Yes Brad can tweak some things, but your best players have to play like it.... on both ends. Now, for some the answer is... fire the coach and hope the re-set gets better performance. For others (I'm on of these) the answer is... shake up your roster, bring in new faces and try to re-establish an identity around your stars. You can switch coaches, but I don't think Brad is the main problem.
No we don't. There is no situation under which we are a worse roster than those teams right now in terms of talent an track record. Our top 2 are not only better, so are a number of our other players.