If he takes that, can they resign Williams? I would think so because they'd have his Bird rights, but I'm really not sure...
Jacksonity......or the Knick thread
- Thread starter Rocco Graziosa
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I believe that's right, but honestly, I've lost track of where the Knicks are in terms of the luxury tax, and I'm also not really clear on how that brief window last week when they were a "space team" affected the rest of their offseason.
I also saw that they signed Devin Green and Chris Hunter, though I'd imagine they're just camp filler until the 2.5 space team exception and Williams situations get sorted out.
I think Reggie Williams would be a fallback if Crawford/S. Williams don't happen. Would like Crawford and one of the two Williamses, ideally.
Baron Davis has been amnestied. All the rumors are that he's coming to the Knicks, assuming he clears waivers.
They need Shawne Williams to sign. Keeping him and adding Maurice Evans makes the most sense. Davis, if he's truly out for 8-10 weeks, is a low-risk, high-reward signing. I can't blame them for taking a flyer there.
Whats preventing Baron and his agent from just saying this injury timetable to prevent any Chauncey Billups-type bids to be placed?
If Baron wants to go to the Knicks or Lakers, seems like the best way to be sure of that would be to claim he is out for a couple months. If he then has some miraculous healing powers and is back in a couple weeks, who will know any better?
If Baron wants to go to the Knicks or Lakers, seems like the best way to be sure of that would be to claim he is out for a couple months. If he then has some miraculous healing powers and is back in a couple weeks, who will know any better?
because the cavs will let teams know his injury situation, since it is in their interest for another team to make a claim.
That's short-term, Baron and more hopefully, Travis Outlaw.
Despite what Bill Simmons just wrote, "the single worst backcourt in NBA history", I think they're OK there, curious to see what the trio of Douglas/Fields/Shumpert do if given a chance, plus Bibby can maybe help a little off the bench (yikes). Their real issue is frontcourt depth, where they have no one besides Jeffries and two rookie centers backing up PF/C, and no one besides Melo and Jeffries capable of playing SF on the entire roster. Hence, fingers crossed for Travis Outlaw.
Despite what Bill Simmons just wrote, "the single worst backcourt in NBA history", I think they're OK there, curious to see what the trio of Douglas/Fields/Shumpert do if given a chance, plus Bibby can maybe help a little off the bench (yikes). Their real issue is frontcourt depth, where they have no one besides Jeffries and two rookie centers backing up PF/C, and no one besides Melo and Jeffries capable of playing SF on the entire roster. Hence, fingers crossed for Travis Outlaw.
Baron signs with NY, he should be starting PG as soon as he is healthy, I'd think. They still really could use a backup big man, but their depth is getting there:
Davis
Shumpert
Melo
Amare
Chandler
Douglas (6th man/backup SG)
Bibby (backup PG)
Walker/Fields (backup SF)
Jeffries/Balkman/Harrelson/Jerome Jordan (a sad set of backup PF/C)
Davis
Shumpert
Melo
Amare
Chandler
Douglas (6th man/backup SG)
Bibby (backup PG)
Walker/Fields (backup SF)
Jeffries/Balkman/Harrelson/Jerome Jordan (a sad set of backup PF/C)
The Cavaliers have not commented to my knowledge on Baron's injury. The announcement came from Baron's agent about 5 minutes following the amnesty release so he didn't end up like Billups and trapped in a place he didn't want to be. They have already been talk that instead of Baron being out 8-10 weeks as his agent reported it is more like 4-6. He'll probably be practicing in 2 weeks. Good stop-gap solution for the Knicks on the cheap.
Tyson Chandler is going to be reduced to sobs and convulsions having to cover for the defensive sieves Davis, Bibby, Anthony and Amare.
Seriously, I fear for his sanity.
Seriously, I fear for his sanity.
A potential Gilbert Arenas, Baron Davis and Mike Bibby triumvirate would be the greatest combination of point guards a team could assemble in 2005
Looks like the final piece will be Steve Novak and not, as implied above, Gilbert Arenas, whom the Knicks had no contact with. Reports are that assuming Novak clears waivers, the Knicks will sign him to be a potential their stretch 4 off the bench.
No one is good coming in supercold, but Novak is a career 41.7% shooter from 3 point range, pretty impressive for a big guy. He can't do anything else competently, but NY was really thin at forward, so he has a chance to get minutes, as does anyone playing for D'Antoni who can shoot.
No, he's definitely a fit, I just had an immediate funny reaction to the words "stretch 4." D'Antoni's probably kicking himself for the bad luck that had Channing Frye leave NY before he got there (of course he was a different player back then), and not make it to the Suns until after he left. He's pretty much the ideal stretch big man.
I'm interested to see how the pieces fit, particularly on defense. While an excellent defensive player can lift the game of the players around him, it still takes a lot of desire for those players to commit full-time, not to mention the coach. You can't just get one player and have it magically work. Chandler is very good but he's not in Garnett's league, and the Celtics had excellent defensive role players like Posey and Tony Allen off the bench to go along with a stalwart C in Perkins and a rising defensive talent in Rondo. Pierce was never a bad defender, though Ray was a question mark and has clearly played his best D as a Celtic because he bought in.
At this moment I don't think the Knicks have that kind of infrastructure to support an above average defensive team. They basically need Amar'e and Melo to completely disprove their reputations to really turn it around on that side of the ball, then start collecting defensive role players to fill out the roster (how's Shumpert's D?). and they need a coach who preaches defense. Pretty sure D'Antoni isn't that guy.
They are indisputably better right now than they have been, but they're definitely in the "show-me" stage of a team trying to make the leap to legit contender. I'm in NYC so I don't get the C's and I love the hell out of Frazier, so it should be fun watching them try to figure it out.
For the most part, I agree with you. Chandler is a very good defensive anchor, and will help improve the team, but it won't really matter if nobody else buys in.
That said, the cupboard isn't quite as bare defensively as people seem to think. Toney Douglas and Iman Shumpert are both excellent defenders. Going into the draft this season, it was a toss up between Shump Shump and Singleton as to who the best defensive player in the draft was. Shumpert is extremely athletic and active on the defensive end, and I expect him to be taking on some of the tougher defensive assignments this year. Obviously it's pretty futile to try take much analysis from a preseason game, but Shumpert was used on Deron Williams a lot, and actually looked pretty effective. I won't be surprised at all to see Shumpert given the task of guarding the Rondos and Roses this year, which is obviously a lot to ask of a rookie.
Likewise, Douglas is a very good perimeter defender, and is a former ACC defensive player of the year. And despite being the punchline to a lot of jokes, and perhaps the worst offensive player in the NBA, Jared Jeffries is actually an above average defender as well. He takes a ton of charges, always ranks near the top of the power forward position in steals, and is a very good help side and trapping zones, and can defend either the 3 or the 4. It seems truly insane to say this about a Mike D'Antoni coached team (although, Mike Woodson was brought on as a defacto defensive coordinator) but I think the Knicks second unit has the potential to be a very good defensive team. There will be times when the Knicks are playing Douglas, Shumpert, Carmelo, Jeffries and Chandler together that they'll be very hard to score against. The challenge, however, will be getting crunch time stops.
Both of those posts are very good, not much to add except that NY needs a very good year from one or two of their guards to be a second round playoff team or better (better is very doubtful IMO this year, but who knows with this crazy schedule?).
Baron is an obvious candidate once he's healthy, but I think most Knicks fans are hoping that Shumpert steps up big as he is a superior athlete with a ton of potential.
Baron is an obvious candidate once he's healthy, but I think most Knicks fans are hoping that Shumpert steps up big as he is a superior athlete with a ton of potential.
The problem isn't so much attitude as it is flat-out physical ability. Davis is slow and not well-conditioned. Bibby is just plain old and slow. Amare has bad wheels. Pierce and Allen were physically better positioned to become plus defenders with some effort, not to mention KG screaming at them.
Of the guys I mentioned, you can make a case that Anthony can become a passable defender by exerting more effort. That said, I don't see Chandler as being the kind of defensive leader that KG was or is, either on or off the court. He's still a great fit but, as a whole, the team is going to be below average defensively.
D'Antoni's teams often look worse defensively than they actually are because his run-and-gun style creates more possessions for both teams. If Team A wins 125-110, while Team B wins 90-75, the pundits nod sagely and call Team B a better defensive team-- but that ain't necessarily so.
Melo isn't a bad defensive player-- and he's a very good on the boards. I'm sure that since grade school coaches have been imploring him not to get into foul trouble, which may help explain his passivity at times.
Melo isn't a bad defensive player-- and he's a very good on the boards. I'm sure that since grade school coaches have been imploring him not to get into foul trouble, which may help explain his passivity at times.
Kenyon Martin talking about joining NY once he's allowed in March, they still have their $2.5M exception and he would be the perfect front court backup that they're missing right now:
https://twitter.com/#!/Oakcliffbully_/status/150687781461573632
https://twitter.com/#!/Oakcliffbully_/status/150687781461573632
Knicks claimed Jeremy Lin today to give them a bit more depth at guard. He put up good numbers in the D-League last season
A lot of ugliness in Knick-land so far, but one bright spot has been the immediate emergence of Iman Shumpert as a game-changing force.
He got hurt opening day, missed the next four games, then in his second game against Charlotte on Wed had the Garden repeatedly chanting his name, including one time when he was on the bench (!). Tonight in his third game, there was talk of him starting as the other current Knicks guards are all clinically dead, but D'Antoni instead used him for 37 minutes off the bench, where he was a +20 in a 3 point win with 5 steals and 7 assists and started the second half at PG. He will presumably start at PG for Douglas until Baron is ready, when he should slide over to SG and send Fields deep into the recesses of the bench where he belongs.
He got hurt opening day, missed the next four games, then in his second game against Charlotte on Wed had the Garden repeatedly chanting his name, including one time when he was on the bench (!). Tonight in his third game, there was talk of him starting as the other current Knicks guards are all clinically dead, but D'Antoni instead used him for 37 minutes off the bench, where he was a +20 in a 3 point win with 5 steals and 7 assists and started the second half at PG. He will presumably start at PG for Douglas until Baron is ready, when he should slide over to SG and send Fields deep into the recesses of the bench where he belongs.
This is very true, unfortunately. He just doesn't fit what they're trying to do anymore, and through the first couple of weeks has been a big defensive liability. It feels like he's involved in every bad switch on the defensive end, and doesn't seem to have the quickness to show on middle pick and rolls to slow the roll man and then get back to his man on the perimeter. I hope they're shopping him around at the moment, because I'm afraid he's going to be valueless sooner rather than later. It's hard to believe that less than a year ago they deemed him untouchable in the Carmelo deal.
I think he was the leading rebounding guard in the entire league last year, he was very good for the first half of the season or so.
Obviously it doesn't make sense to make too much of one game, particularly against a team on the last night of a back-to-back-to-back who was playing without Spencer Hawes, but. . .
The Knicks defense looked very good last night. There were still lapses, and they're still switching too often, but the intensity and effort is definitely there. Going into the game last night the Sixers had the most efficient offense in the league, and the Knicks held them to 79 points. Shumpert's length really causes opposing guards problems, and Chandler seems to have figured out how better to cover for Amare's deficiencies/lack of effort. Off the bench, I've been impressed with Harrelson's defense and Douglas did a very good job denying Holiday the ball on some key possessions last night. More than anything, it's just refreshing to see effort and understanding on the defensive end. Obviously there's sample size issues at this point in the season, but the season is 10 games old and the Knicks are currently 7th in the league in defensive efficiency. The next three games are going to say a lot about where the Knicks are right now, but last night was certainly a promising sign defensively against a team that's playing as well as anybody right now.
The Knicks defense looked very good last night. There were still lapses, and they're still switching too often, but the intensity and effort is definitely there. Going into the game last night the Sixers had the most efficient offense in the league, and the Knicks held them to 79 points. Shumpert's length really causes opposing guards problems, and Chandler seems to have figured out how better to cover for Amare's deficiencies/lack of effort. Off the bench, I've been impressed with Harrelson's defense and Douglas did a very good job denying Holiday the ball on some key possessions last night. More than anything, it's just refreshing to see effort and understanding on the defensive end. Obviously there's sample size issues at this point in the season, but the season is 10 games old and the Knicks are currently 7th in the league in defensive efficiency. The next three games are going to say a lot about where the Knicks are right now, but last night was certainly a promising sign defensively against a team that's playing as well as anybody right now.
I don't disagree too much, but their schedule so far has been so weak, and their offense is so consistently terrible with nothing resembling a PG, it's hard to be too optimistic before Baron is playing. The biggest issue may be that Amare seems to have lost quite a bit of lift in his legs since last year's postseason, dunno whether it's because he put on too much muscle in the offseason or it's knee problems again or something else, but he looks nothing like himself. Marc Gasol abused him repeatedly tonight, Amare couldn't do anything.
Agree on Amare. He hasn't looked good at all. After watching him last season, I figured that even as he aged and lost his legs a bit, he'd still be a decent offensive player thanks to his shooting. But this year he's not shooting well. It's possible that it's just a sample size thing and that it'll sort itself out with a hot streak, but from 16-23 he's only shooting 29% down from 44% last season, and from 10-15 feet he's dropped to 23% from 38%.
How much longer does D'Antoni survive? You're down 30 in the 3rd Quarter to Oklahoma City.
Melo or no Melo, there's no excuse for the beatings this team is taking. The whole thing is starting to smell like a disaster team.
Melo or no Melo, there's no excuse for the beatings this team is taking. The whole thing is starting to smell like a disaster team.
So the Knicks lose yet again...
People around here are worried about a 5-8 start for the Celtics...There has to be some serious panic in NY right now. The Knicks have lost to the Warriors, Lakers, Raptors, Bobcats, Grizz, Thunder, Magic, and Suns with wins coming against the Celtics, Kings, Wizards, Pistons, Bobcats, and 76ers. Color me unimpressed. Many teams including the Celtics would probably be out to a 9-4 record. That has been a cake walk to begin the year and they are slumping hard.
I think there is a cause for concern that the Carmelo Amare combination isn't going to work.
People around here are worried about a 5-8 start for the Celtics...There has to be some serious panic in NY right now. The Knicks have lost to the Warriors, Lakers, Raptors, Bobcats, Grizz, Thunder, Magic, and Suns with wins coming against the Celtics, Kings, Wizards, Pistons, Bobcats, and 76ers. Color me unimpressed. Many teams including the Celtics would probably be out to a 9-4 record. That has been a cake walk to begin the year and they are slumping hard.
I think there is a cause for concern that the Carmelo Amare combination isn't going to work.
They have no PG, we know nothing about this team until Baron plays at least 20 games. I am no D'Antoni fan, I have been really disappointed with his inflexibility in NY thus far, but there aren't a lot of obvious upgrades out there. Rick Carlisle's contract is up after this season, there have been rumors NY will offer him a huge deal, maybe 3/24.
Until Baron Davis plays at least 20 games? First off, if your counting on Baron Davis to right your ship then you are in a load of trouble. If anything, Iman Shumpert is already the better player. Baron Davis is old, injury prone, and a liability on the defensive end of the court. His offense has also clearly taken a huge digression over the past few years. If you don't know much about your team before the return of Baron Davis (coming off of a serious back injury) then you are in knee deep dog shit.
Sorry, but any analysis that suggests that Iman Shumpert is a better PG than Baron Davis pretty much ruins your credibility right off the bat. Have you actually watched him play point guard? Going into last night, his PER as a PG was a whopping 2.2. For reference, Davis's career PER is 18.0, and last year, despite your detailed and insightful analysis, after he was traded to Cleveland he averaged 19.7 points and 8.7 assists per 36 minutes. Even before the trade, he was averaging 15.7 and 8.5 per 36, which compared to his career averages of 17.1 and 7.6 doesn't feel like a "huge digression" to me.
Meanwhile, as a shooting guard, Shumpert's PER is 25.6. That means that Baron Davis can be terrible, and the move of Shumpert from PG to SG still will present a substantial upgrade to the Knicks starting lineup.
I'm with Abbey on this. This team needs a point guard, and making judgments on the feasibility of the Carmelo-Amare pairing based on a 13 game sample size in a shortened season with a short training camp before their best 5 has played a single minute together isn't particularly productive. Are the Knicks a great team? Nope. But I'm confident they'll be better than they are playing now. If their offense can perform at even a league average level, they'll win a lot of the games they've been losing recently.
The combined winning percentage of the Celtics opponents so far is .440. The combined winning percentage of the Knicks opponents so far is .410. In fact, the Celtics and the Knicks, according to the strength of schedule power rankings on TeamRankings.com, have had the two easiest schedules in the league, so I'm not really sure how you're concluding that the Celtics would somehow be 9-4 if they'd played the easy schedule the Knicks did.
Your such a smart guy and excuse me for carrying zero credibility.
Baron Davis is coming off of a herniated disc injury which is one of the hardest injuries for any player, in any sport to come back from. What Baron Davis has done in the past has zero indication of what Baron Davis will do moving forward. Last year when Baron Davis was traded to the Cavaliers, Davis enjoyed his second worst season/stint as a pro with a whopping 0.7 win share. This in fact is before Davis suffered a serious back injury. Now you are expecting Baron Davis to come to New York and contribute despite being the 4th or 5th option after months off from basketball? New York hardly even runs their offense through a point guard as a large majority of their offense starts with Carmelo Anthony and ends with Melo or Amare, and expects their role players to contribute as majority three point shooters in which Baron Davis is a career 32.1 percent shooter.
Like I said, your in trouble. Not only is Baron Davis a very inefficient point guard at this point in his career and now coming off of a herniated disc but he will also be another major defensive liability when opposed by Rose, Rondo, Chalmers, and the other contending point guards that they will have to get by. I understand that Shumpert isn't playing great either, a 0.3 win share but I whole heartily expect Baron Davis to be worse and for good reason. Even if Baron Davis is slightly better (and that is very unlikely), New York is still in a ton of trouble.
So the fact that you think I have no credibility is ignorant.
So you think it's "very unlikely" that Davis will have a PER higher than 2.2 and that Shumpert is the better PG? I'm excited to revisit this discussion in April.
And, like I said, the Knicks (who I do not play for, fyi) are not a great team, and I have zero expectation of them getting by Chicago or Miami. But, with a true point guard, I expect their offense to improve and for them to beat the sort of teams they've been losing to recently. Further, the Knicks are running their offense through Carmelo out of necessity. D'Antoni's system, as everybody knows, is reliant on the point guard and very pick and roll heavy, which the Knicks have been terrible at running this year due to their lack of a true point guard. Stoudemire, for instance, has finished just 3.2 percent of the pick and roll's the Knicks have run this year. With Felton running the point last year, that number was just under 15%. Carmelo finishes well in pick and roll situations with the ball in his hands (1.2 PPP in pick and roll situations) but is very poor at creating for the roll man, and as a result, defenses dont have to collapse on the roll man and the other shooters (Amare in particular) don't get open looks off of kick outs. Baron Davis will distribute to the roll man more effectively than Carmelo/Shumpert/Douglas have thus far, and doing so will create better looks for everybody.
That said, I can't speak to the severity of herniated discs or the recovery prognosis. But everything I've read is that after surgery, given proper recovery time and physical therapy, there's no reason one can't come back from the surgery.
Time will tell, I guess.
More of an answer than you deserve, but for the sake of the thread:
“Davis had the most valuable assists in the league last season, and it wasn’t even close. Among players with at least 300 assists, Davis’ average assist was worth .841 points, well ahead of the league average of .667. And lest you think that was all from having Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan slamming down dunks, consider that Davis’ assist value didn’t change at all after the trade to Cleveland. More than half of Davis’ assists were layups or dunks, according to Hoopdata.com, compared to the league average of 38 percent; conversely, only 26.3 percent of his dimes were “bad” assists that led to 2-pointers away from the basket.”
This is exactly what NY needs right now, someone to create spacing on the offensive end. No one is expecting Davis to be the 2007 version, but he is going to be a major step up from what they've been playing with. I love Shumpert (I am wearing a SHUMP SHUMP t-shirt as I type), but he is much more of a SG than a PG.
From Hollinger’s Baron Davis player card:
“Davis had the most valuable assists in the league last season, and it wasn’t even close. Among players with at least 300 assists, Davis’ average assist was worth .841 points, well ahead of the league average of .667. And lest you think that was all from having Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan slamming down dunks, consider that Davis’ assist value didn’t change at all after the trade to Cleveland. More than half of Davis’ assists were layups or dunks, according to Hoopdata.com, compared to the league average of 38 percent; conversely, only 26.3 percent of his dimes were “bad” assists that led to 2-pointers away from the basket.”
This is exactly what NY needs right now, someone to create spacing on the offensive end. No one is expecting Davis to be the 2007 version, but he is going to be a major step up from what they've been playing with. I love Shumpert (I am wearing a SHUMP SHUMP t-shirt as I type), but he is much more of a SG than a PG.