Joe Posnanski: Lord of Lists

TheGazelle

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There is no such law, just as there is no "Good Samaritan" law that requires (unless excepted by statute) someone to report a crime in progress or to save someone in peril.

Paterno did all he was required to do by statute (I believe).

However, that by no means absolves him of any moral or ethical standards he violated. People have every right to judge him, just as they might judge a person who does nothing to save a dying man on the street because he was late to work.

The bold is correct, but it should be noted that many states have laws making certain people (teachers are a good example) mandatory reporters of sexual abuse. The laws in PA simply require someone like Paterno to report up the chain to his AD. He may not be so lucky in other states.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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He called Paterno a "scapegoat."

And Deadspin didn't have all the quotes. He also said:



Paterno is his friend, he is too close to the subject to make it an objective look at his downfall. We're not going to get that book.

That's a big problem for any journalist. There's also the problem that Posnananski probably has a set timetable for this book and if he's like most authors he doesn't get the second half of what I assume was his substantial advance until he turns in the manuscript.

But given the situation, this book could and should now take years to finish. It is going to be quite some time before all of the facts are known. Posnanski likely feels quite desperate right now and is experiencing a degree of denial.

It is my suspicion that the final facts will be far worse than what has come out so far. I believe (and God knows, I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it) that Sandusky's victims likely number in the dozens or even hundreds. I base this simply on everything I know about the behavior of serial sex offenders. My gosh, I used to teach a class in a juvenile correction facility that housed (among others) underage sex offenders. I was told that these kids -- KIDS -- had an average of 300 victims each! And these were teenagers.

Bearing in mind that Sandusky is on tape essentially confessing to the mother of one of the boys he "showered" with and that tape was made in 1998 -- thirteen years ago -- and that he "retired" soon after that bringing a potentially stellar coaching career to a screeching halt -- I believe that Paterno knew exactly what was going on and chose for years to cover it up, which means that Paterno himself bears responsibility for the sexual assault of dozens or even hundreds of boys.

That's what I expect we will learn eventually. Not this week or even this year, but maybe several years from now. Probably not until Paterno is dead. And at that point, Posnanski will look like a complete fool or worse.
 

brs3

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I think it's interesting that because Joe Posnanski doesn't subscribe to same feelings as other people on the subject, that he's somehow lost credibility as a journalist, that he's somehow now just a hack, or that suddenly his writing sucks.

Posnanski's article reads exactly like every other article he's written. It's dripping with his own personal opinions, and in this case he fully acknowledges that he needs time to digest the situation. He states his current mindset, and adds the caveat that he might change his views. This is not good enough for people. They want him to join everybody else immediately.

I thought it was a excellent article, and gives me hope that the book he does end up writing will provide the best coverage of the situation. Maybe I'll be wrong, maybe Pos is a hack and the book will suck. We'll find out when it's finished.
 

Leather

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The bold is correct, but it should be noted that many states have laws making certain people (teachers are a good example) mandatory reporters of sexual abuse. The laws in PA simply require someone like Paterno to report up the chain to his AD. He may not be so lucky in other states.

Paterno did not break any laws. Period.

The fact that if he lived in New Hampshire, he may have, is completely, 100%, beside the point.
 

JohntheBaptist

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I think it's interesting that because Joe Posnanski doesn't subscribe to same feelings as other people on the subject, that he's somehow lost credibility as a journalist, that he's somehow now just a hack, or that suddenly his writing sucks.
I find it interesting that anyone would have a problem grasping this. Speaking for myself, the process was no different than reading any of the other columns he's written, a vast majority of which I came out loving.

This one I didn't. Part of that is, yes, he's expressing an opinion I can't get behind. The other part of it is that there are a lot of things wrong with it. That isn't about "not being good enough" for me or that I had an image of exactly what he's supposed to say and now I'm cranky he didn't--its about my finding his conclusions severely lacking, at times contradictory, and representing priorities that seem to me to be entirely out of whack. It was also all over the place. Yes, it strained his credibility in writing about the topic for me personally.

I don't see how you can read him excoriating people that haven't "publicly stuck up for Joe" and still feel confident about anything he's going to write on the subject. Yes, he references the dynamic nature of the event and his own reaction, but he wrote that article not in an effort to uncover truths relating to the scandal, he wrote it in an effort to get a message out about the person he's writing a book about. I think this is an understandable place for criticism.

He's not bound to publish everything in his head precisely when it appears. If he's really looked at the facts of the case objectively and was still most concerned with communicating how decent-and-now-abandoned a guy poor Joe Paterno is, then it will be a real problem for him writing it going forward and likely wouldn't be a good book at all. If, as is more likely, he's been deluged by information that he still very much needs to sort through, rushing to make statements on this person's behalf was in poor taste. He did present them as incomplete thoughts, so what you're pointing out there is fair.

Don't think it makes him a hack, but this situation seems to have exposed some weakness here.

However, being reminded of the good Joe Paterno has done is needed. It's needed because his goals for the institution were admirable. His goals became the institution's goals. Knowing how those good intentions and oftentimes good outcomes turned out this way is important. It would be easy to think it only happens because of evil vices such as hubris and greed infect and institution, encouraging opacity and fear of authority's reprisal.
Part of how I've been viewing this story is that we appear to have been plunged into it in media res--things haven't fully concluded, haven't fully been reported, victims are still unknown, Sandusky is still rooting around Dick's Sporting Goods in PSU gear, we don't know the specifics of what was clearly a cover-up. What you're saying here is 100% true, but it comes into play only both as a means of understanding the entirety of the iceberg once we have a sense of it and as a way to heal the actual university once the cancer's been removed.

In the interim, before that info gets cleared up and we have a more clear picture of what happened, that reminder is not even remotely necessary. One could argue that the order these events come to pass can be as important as their happening at all.

What is gruesomely astounding in case of sexual abuse of children is the level of denial and willful blindness that occurs because of the horrific nature of the act. People will disbelieve allegations against a family member or a friend even in the face of overwhelming evidence. It comes across as callous, and it is, but it happens all of the time. Generally good people, decent people fall into the trap. Those in Paterno's generation are particularly susceptible to it.
This is fine, and people have been making effort to point it out a lot. I get this in the abstract, of course. Even still, we can't continue to accept things like this. People have been mentioning the very human reaction sexual abuse can create, and I certainly understand that. But with the other hand right there ready to call it out for what it is: wrong.

What Joe Paterno did was very wrong and the nuances of what lead him to that moment are all well and good. People are and should be sensitive, though, to what exactly eliciting these nuances right now really attempts to communicate.
 
Sep 27, 2004
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I think it's interesting that because Joe Posnanski doesn't subscribe to same feelings as other people on the subject, that he's somehow lost credibility as a journalist, that he's somehow now just a hack, or that suddenly his writing sucks.

Posnanski's article reads exactly like every other article he's written. It's dripping with his own personal opinions, and in this case he fully acknowledges that he needs time to digest the situation. He states his current mindset, and adds the caveat that he might change his views. This is not good enough for people. They want him to join everybody else immediately.

I thought it was a excellent article, and gives me hope that the book he does end up writing will provide the best coverage of the situation. Maybe I'll be wrong, maybe Pos is a hack and the book will suck. We'll find out when it's finished.
That's an incredibly simplistic and inaccurate view of what's going on here. No one said he was a hack. Posnanski has a professional obligation as a journalist to tell the truth of what happened, however complicated and unpleasant that may be. His obligation is to do that with accuracy and emotional detachment. If he can't do that, then he needs to put the project aside. I know it's easier for people to 2reach for the "lamestream media" crutch than to look at things rationally, but there are clear ethical journalistic standards that every professional knows and are expected to follow. Joe knows them and, I believe, follows them. He is too close to the situation, has too much personally and financially invested in writing the book he thought he was going to write -- a puff piece, apparently -- and now he's upset that his plans are scuttled. No publisher on earth will pay for that original book now and he'd get hammered by colleagues and critics if he wrote it now. He has to write the real story of what happened here or walk away.

That he can't apparently see that the real "warts and all story" is a billion times more interesting and important is troubling -- to me, it shows he's been operating not as a journalist, but a fan.
 

Tartan

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I think it's interesting that because Joe Posnanski doesn't subscribe to same feelings as other people on the subject, that he's somehow lost credibility as a journalist, that he's somehow now just a hack, or that suddenly his writing sucks.
On the first point, I only worry that his closeness to Paterno and the situation might alter his judgment in this case and this case alone. It's not like the countless superb articles he's written are suddenly eradicated. I don't think anyone has argued the last two points.[



Posnanski's article reads exactly like every other article he's written. It's dripping with his own personal opinions, and in this case he fully acknowledges that he needs time to digest the situation. He states his current mindset, and adds the caveat that he might change his views. This is not good enough for people. They want him to join everybody else immediately.

I thought it was a excellent article, and gives me hope that the book he does end up writing will provide the best coverage of the situation. Maybe I'll be wrong, maybe Pos is a hack and the book will suck. We'll find out when it's finished.
From strictly a writing style point of view, yes. But any article tries to argue something, and some of what he's trying to argue here is, I think, wrong. Dead wrong. Not everything, but enough that it soured the article for me. When he trots out the righteous indignation about the method of Joe Pa's firing, calling it disgusting, shaming those he feels should be standing up for Joe Pa, that's not "digesting the situation". That's an assertion, a concrete one, and its sits wrong with me. And maybe it's emotionally driven and will indeed temper over time. The point is, he put it in writing for the world to digest, and I thought that portion of the article tasted sour.
 

Leather

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Pedros HS: Exactly.

From my earlier posts positing what Pos might do with this story, I think it's clear that I held him to a very high standard and also respected his judgment very much. Most people here do/did.

The disappointment comes not from his conclusion, but that it's so obviously colored by his personal interactions with Paterno and from being in the Penn State community.

I never thought he'd become enamored with his subject. Hell, even Peter King at least hedges his bets when he thinks one of his heroes might be in the wrong with a "Let's wait until the facts come out, but if they are true, then I'll be very disappointed" type of thing.

I've read again and again from sportswriters that they don't root for teams anymore. That they root for "the story." That it's impossible to do the job of a journalist if you start rooting for players or teams. Joe Posnanski is clearly, openly, rooting for Joe Paterno.

He's tainted, and therefore useless as an unbiased source on the scandal (or on Joe Paterno). That is very sad, because I was counting on him being my go-to source.

He blew it.
 

KenTremendous

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No publisher on earth will pay for that original book now and he'd get hammered by colleagues and critics if he wrote it now. He has to write the real story of what happened here or walk away.

That he can't apparently see that the real "warts and all story" is a billion times more interesting and important is troubling -- to me, it shows he's been operating not as a journalist, but a fan.
What part of this:

I’m Joe Paterno’s biographer. I’m here to write about the man. I’m not here to write a fairy tale, and I’m not here to write a hit job, and I hope to be nowhere near either extreme. I’m here to write a whole story. I’ve had people ask me: “Will you include all this in the book?” Well, OF COURSE I will — this is the tragic ending of a legendary career. I’m going to wait for evidence, and if it turns out that Joe Paterno knowingly covered this up, then I will write that with all the power and fury I have in me.
suggests he can't see the "warts and all story?"
 

mauf

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Posnanski has a professional obligation as a journalist to tell the truth of what happened, however complicated and unpleasant that may be.
This is a story about evil. It is also a story about how the line between good and evil runs, as Solzhenitsyn put it, through the middle of every human heart. If Barry Switzer had covered for pedophiles, we would be far less interested. Ironically, once this scandal has fully played out, the "complicated" part may be reminding people that Joe Paterno has done a lot of good. (Full disclosure: I always thought Paterno was a sanctimonious prick, and if he had fallen from grace for stupid shit the way college coaches usually do, I'd be loving every minute.)

[Posnanski's] obligation is to do that with accuracy and emotional detachment. If he can't do that, then he needs to put the project aside.
Absolutely. And I'm disappointed by what Poz wrote, particularly the parts about people Paterno knew not publicly supporting him.

That he can't apparently see that the real "warts and all story" is a billion times more interesting and important is troubling -- to me, it shows he's been operating not as a journalist, but a fan.
Let's see. He said he didn't plan on saying anything, then reversed course when his remarks in a semi-private forum were broadcast worldwide via Twitter.
 

JimD

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He's tainted, and therefore useless as an unbiased source on the scandal (or on Joe Paterno). That is very sad, because I was counting on him being my go-to source.

He blew it.
Can we wait until he actually writes his book before making such pronouncements?

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I firmly believe that him getting to know JoePa somewhat before the storm hit is going to help him write a great book. Once the guy gets away from the Happy Valley tsunami and gets a chance to decompress (and more importantly, spend some time with his kids), he is undoubtedly going to have the necessary clarity about this.
 

braudimusprime

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I think it's interesting that because Joe Posnanski doesn't subscribe to same feelings as other people on the subject, that he's somehow lost credibility as a journalist, that he's somehow now just a hack, or that suddenly his writing sucks.

Posnanski's article reads exactly like every other article he's written. It's dripping with his own personal opinions, and in this case he fully acknowledges that he needs time to digest the situation. He states his current mindset, and adds the caveat that he might change his views. This is not good enough for people. They want him to join everybody else immediately.

I thought it was a excellent article, and gives me hope that the book he does end up writing will provide the best coverage of the situation. Maybe I'll be wrong, maybe Pos is a hack and the book will suck. We'll find out when it's finished.
I think the problem is that Posnanski's standard approach (meandering, searching, questioning) just really serves him badly here. The national reaction to this story has made it clear that no one is interested in hearing for the 8,000th time that Paterno is a good man, or a good coach, or that he built a library, or that he has had some kind of abstract positive influence on lots of people. Anyone with a less than passing interest in college football has been hearing that stuff for decades. And if that's the angle a writer wants to take at this moment, then yeah, he's going to look like an apologist.

Posnanski is of course free to wrestle with this stuff all he wants but he should maybe get an offline journal or something because I don't think it's a great message for a public forum at this time. He should have taken his own advice and stayed silent, but clearly that's really, really hard for him.


 

Leather

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I guess I'm in the minority here, but I firmly believe that him getting to know JoePa somewhat before the storm hit is going to help him write a great book. Once the guy gets away from the Happy Valley tsunami and gets a chance to decompress (and more importantly, spend some time with his kids), he is undoubtedly going to have the necessary clarity about this.
I don't know about that. I think that he's telegraphed, not only to his readers but also to the people of Penn State including Joe Paterno and Paterno's family, where his allegiances lie. I have a hard time seeing him proceed with that mindset and somehow doing an about-face before the book comes out.

We'll see, though, you're right. My guess is this: He writes a glowing book on Joe Paterno's coaching legacy, and aside from a final chapter where he talks about Paterno's exit and includes a few quotes about how regretful Paterno is, he doesn't touch the child molestation issue.
 
Sep 27, 2004
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What part of this:

suggests he can't see the "warts and all story?"
Well, let's see. How about this part of this:
[font="verdana]
[/font]
[font="verdana]
But I have seen some things in the last few days that have felt rotten, utterly wrong — a piling on that goes even beyond excessive, a dancing on the grave that makes me ill. Joe Paterno has lived a whole life. He has improved the lives of countless people. I know — I've talked to hundreds of them. Almost every day I walk by the library that he and his wife, Sue, built. I walk by the religious center that tries to bring people together, and his name is on the list of major donors. I hear the stories, the countless stories, of the kindnesses that came naturally to him, of the way he stuck with people in their worst moments, of the belief he had that everybody could do a little bit better — as a football player, as a student, as a human being. I'm not going to tell you these stories now, because you can't hear them. Nobody can hear them in the howling.[/font]
[font="verdana][/font]
[font="verdana]But I will say that I am sickened, absolutely sickened, that some of those people whose lives were fundamentally inspired and galvanized by Joe Paterno have not stepped forward to stand up for him this week, have stood back and allowed him to be painted as an inhuman monster who was only interested in his legacy, even at the cost of the most heinous crimes against children imaginable.[/font]

[font="verdana]Shame on them. [/font]

[font="verdana]
[/font]

[font="verdana]And this:[/font]

[font="verdana]
I think the University could not possibly have handled this worse. It was disgusting and disgraceful, the method in which they fired Joe Paterno after 60 years of service, and yes, I do think Paterno was a scapegoat. Of course he was. I've already said that he had to be let go. But to let him dangle out there, take up all the headlines, face the bulk of the media pressure, absolutely, that's the very definition of scapegoat. Three people were indicted and arrested. A fourth, I hear, will be indicted soon. Joe Paterno is not one of the four.
[/font]

[font="verdana]As well as this:[/font]

[font="verdana]
A determined grand jury did not charge Joe Paterno with any crime. A motivated reporting barrage, so far, anyway, has not uncovered a single thing that can tell us definitively what Joe Paterno knew.
[/font]

[font="verdana]All of this outrage against the media and others calling Paterno out for his actions/inactions, along with Pos' indignation at the way Paterno has been treated by the Board of Trustees, tells me he is still clinging to the pre-scandal narrative. He musters more emotion, as well as in his statements he made in that Joe Paterno class about "rushes to judgment" and "scapegoating" as he does about the way those kids were violated over and over by a guy who used the Penn State program to find more victims. [/font]
 

Leather

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A determined grand jury did not charge Joe Paterno with any crime. A motivated reporting barrage, so far, anyway, has not uncovered a single thing that can tell us definitively what Joe Paterno knew.

It drives me bonkers when people who don't really understand the legal system make pronouncements like this. "There's no smoking gun!" People get convicted of crimes based on circumstantial evidence and determinations of credibility all the time. And just because Joe Paterno didn't break a law doesn't mean he can't be in the wrong.
 

Seabass

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My only issue with Poz's article is his admonishment of Paterno's friends for not standing beside him at this time, and how PSU fired him. Poz absolutely knows more about the situation than I do, but Paterno's statement that he was retiring at the end of the year and the BOT should focus on the allegations against Sandusky told me that he was doing everything he could to save his job for a few more months. I understand it - he wanted to control his legacy and the message while his whole life was falling apart around him. But by issuing that statement he tried to wrest the decision from the BOT, and they just lowered the boom on him. It wasn't ideal, but none of this is.

My biggest issue with the piece is that he's yelling at people to stand up for Paterno now. He says his friends should back him. And they may be, privately, but publicly standing up and supporting Paterno before you know what happened seems ludicrous to me. That's Poz's basic point in this article - "I'm going to wait until all the facts are out before I draw any conclusions." essentially. I don't think it makes sense to lambast Paterno's friends just because they're doing the same thing Poz is. Sure, I'm sure it would mean a lot to him if a former player stood up and said that he stands by Paterno, but we have no idea how far this goes. All we know is what is in the GJ report, and Paterno comes off pretty terribly in that. What if it's worse? What if he was the architect of the cover up? Then what?

I still think Posnanski is the best sports writer alive. I think he's too close to this situation to think logically on it right now, but I think he'll come around and produce an excellent book. He's just in a shitty place because everything he thought he knew has changed now, and he's got to go through that publicly.
 

CJM

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I can't remember ever seeing Posnanski so fired up -his tone is almost always even, ruminative, and clear. He's calling for a counter-narrative that's actually a return to the old narrative (Paterno as benevolent father figure). Joe's great at counter-narrative when he does it the Jamesian way - using data to disprove myth. In dealing with the complexities of character, though, he's far better at humanizing a polarizing figure, like he does with Pete Rose in The Machine, or in his posts on Zack Grienke.

In this case, humanizing Joe Paterno would seem to mean finding a middle path between 'Joe Paterno: America's Greatest Grandpa' and 'Joe Paterno: Monstrosity's Blind Eye'. I have faith that Posnanski is up to that task because of his body of work, but to say this isn't an auspicious start is a huge understatement.
 

Alternate34

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Part of how I've been viewing this story is that we appear to have been plunged into it in media res--things haven't fully concluded, haven't fully been reported, victims are still unknown, Sandusky is still rooting around Dick's Sporting Goods in PSU gear, we don't know the specifics of what was clearly a cover-up. What you're saying here is 100% true, but it comes into play only both as a means of understanding the entirety of the iceberg once we have a sense of it and as a way to heal the actual university once the cancer's been removed.

In the interim, before that info gets cleared up and we have a more clear picture of what happened, that reminder is not even remotely necessary. One could argue that the order these events come to pass can be as important as their happening at all.
You're right about how we've been experiencing it. I still think there are enough details known about the Penn State context in general that could be used to start trying to figure out what happened. Most of the pieces written are basically excoriating Joe Paterno without even considering the administration. Certainly, that's the story and that is a major problem. For instance, Joe Posnanski's initial decision to remain silent was a really good idea. His decision to post something was a bad idea because he didn't add anything. His response was reflexive in a way similar to the worst of the student supporters.

This is fine, and people have been making effort to point it out a lot. I get this in the abstract, of course. Even still, we can't continue to accept things like this. People have been mentioning the very human reaction sexual abuse can create, and I certainly understand that. But with the other hand right there ready to call it out for what it is: wrong.

What Joe Paterno did was very wrong and the nuances of what lead him to that moment are all well and good. People are and should be sensitive, though, to what exactly eliciting these nuances right now really attempts to communicate.
This is exactly where I have a problem. Generally, the media and many people are afraid at attempting to explain why something happens for fear of being considered sympathizers with evil. The irony is that lack of critical thinking and analysis is part of the reason cover-ups occur. The people involved obey authority without question. Not that I totally disagree with you. If people are going to start asking why this happened, or at least provide analysis on why this stuff has happened and how that might inform this situation, they have to be careful so as not to portray it as sympathizing with the immoral actors.

Of course, the best response then would be to do what journalists are supposed to do and that is report on what is happening rather than writing opinion pieces on how wrong it is and what they would have done in the situation. It's an easy way to go and it makes people feel comfortable that they would have done differently.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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What part of this:

I’m Joe Paterno’s biographer. I’m here to write about the man. I’m not here to write a fairy tale, and I’m not here to write a hit job, and I hope to be nowhere near either extreme. I’m here to write a whole story. I’ve had people ask me: “Will you include all this in the book?” Well, OF COURSE I will — this is the tragic ending of a legendary career. I’m going to wait for evidence, and if it turns out that Joe Paterno knowingly covered this up, then I will write that with all the power and fury I have in me.
suggests he can't see the "warts and all story?"
Well, first, we already know that Paterno "knowingly covered this up." There's no waiting on that factual finding. He heard a monstrous allegation and he did nothing except the bare minimum of reporting it to his ostensible boss. No one disputes that. The problem is, to assume that the AD was actually Joe Paterno's boss is naive in the extreme. If Paterno wanted the situation investigated and exposed, it would have been. The fact that no significant action was taken is clear evidence that Paterno wanted no action taken.

Second, the enormity of the crimes Sandusky (allegedly) committed and that Paterno covered up makes this more than simply "the tragic ending of a legendary career." If this were, say, a steroid scandal or some kind of money scandal then sure. This would be a case of poor judgment. But of course, we are talking about the rape of children. That severity of that crime -- a crime against humanity, really -- pretty much wipes out everything else. What other actions could possibly provide a moral balance against that. "Sure, he knowingly allowed a child-rapist to remain free and continue raping but look, he built an awesome library!" Just doesn't work.

To me, it is pretty clear that Posnanski for a variety of reasons isn't seeing the "warts and all" story. And the fact that anyone would consider the cover-up of serial child molestation to be a "wart" on an otherwise brilliant career speaks volumes.
 

Alternate34

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I can't remember ever seeing Posnanski so fired up -his tone is almost always even, ruminative, and clear. He's calling for a counter-narrative that's actually a return to the old narrative (Paterno as benevolent father figure). Joe's great at counter-narrative when he does it the Jamesian way - using data to disprove myth. In dealing with the complexities of character, though, he's far better at humanizing a polarizing figure, like he does with Pete Rose in The Machine, or in his posts on Zack Grienke.

In this case, humanizing Joe Paterno would seem to mean finding a middle path between 'Joe Paterno: America's Greatest Grandpa' and 'Joe Paterno: Monstrosity's Blind Eye'. I have faith that Posnanski is up to that task because of his body of work, but to say this isn't an auspicious start is a huge understatement.
I agree that despite the recent post, he should be able to write a good book on Joe Paterno, but I can understand the post giving one pause in thinking he definitely will write a good book. The post had some good points, but the stuff about supporting Paterno is either a blunder in its very idea, or a mistake in execution. He may have been trying to communicate something different but failed.
 
Sep 27, 2004
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This is exactly where I have a problem. Generally, the media and many people are afraid at attempting to explain why something happens for fear of being considered sympathizers with evil. The irony is that lack of critical thinking and analysis is part of the reason cover-ups occur. The people involved obey authority without question. Not that I totally disagree with you. If people are going to start asking why this happened, or at least provide analysis on why this stuff has happened and how that might inform this situation, they have to be careful so as not to portray it as sympathizing with the immoral actors.

Of course, the best response then would be to do what journalists are supposed to do and that is report on what is happening rather than writing opinion pieces on how wrong it is and what they would have done in the situation. It's an easy way to go and it makes people feel comfortable that they would have done differently.
Hold on. You just pissed on journalists and columnists for criticizing Paterno for his role in the scandal. So why are they criticizing him? Because they looked at the grand jury report, added to that their own knowledge about how Paterno runs his program and his personality, and have come to the conclusion that he knew what Sandusky did and turned a blind eye, that he buried this to protect his program's rep by getting the guy to "retire" with dignity and then allowing him to continue enjoying access and other perks of the program for more 13 years. How is that being "afraid" to explain something?

The only irony is that the lack of critical thinking and analysis going on is coming from people who still think they're owed the right to watch or play in a football game or bellyaching that an employee is owed something more personal than a phone call after his own actions, and the actions of his longtime friend and former colleague, threaten to take down the good standing of an entire university.
 

JohntheBaptist

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You're right about how we've been experiencing it. I still think there are enough details known about the Penn State context in general that could be used to start trying to figure out what happened. Most of the pieces written are basically excoriating Joe Paterno without even considering the administration. Certainly, that's the story and that is a major problem. For instance, Joe Posnanski's initial decision to remain silent was a really good idea. His decision to post something was a bad idea because he didn't add anything. His response was reflexive in a way similar to the worst of the student supporters.
Totally agree with this, and you make a good point about exactly where the issue stands currently. Its interesting that much of the Paterno commentary has started to take a reactive shape; simply excoriating in anticipation of the defenses some will offer him now that he's been fired. The commentary comes so fast now that many seem to feel compelled to refute arguments or defenses they're sensing on the horizon instead of dealing with the concepts in front of them right now. You're closer to the reality of the situation than what I last wrote, but that's part of what I was getting at.

This is exactly where I have a problem. Generally, the media and many people are afraid at attempting to explain why something happens for fear of being considered sympathizers with evil. The irony is that lack of critical thinking and analysis is part of the reason cover-ups occur. The people involved obey authority without question. Not that I totally disagree with you. If people are going to start asking why this happened, or at least provide analysis on why this stuff has happened and how that might inform this situation, they have to be careful so as not to portray it as sympathizing with the immoral actors.

Of course, the best response then would be to do what journalists are supposed to do and that is report on what is happening rather than writing opinion pieces on how wrong it is and what they would have done in the situation. It's an easy way to go and it makes people feel comfortable that they would have done differently.
Great points here. I'm not real happy with that last line of my post in particular because it does read as being hostile towards a critical thinking that might arrive at a conclusion involving something short of crucifying Paterno, which wasn't my intention. I am still hung up on the idea that any effort to add nuance to Paterno's situation right now is unnecessary and largely in poor taste considering there are rape victims in this case we don't even have the identity of--but that doesn't mean it isn't there, valid, and that it shouldn't be highlighted in an effort to understand the totality of all this at some point. I guess I'm saying, "we'll get to the Paterno end of this, for now, he's in the discard pile and well deserving of it."
 

Alternate34

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Well, first, we already know that Paterno "knowingly covered this up." There's no waiting on that factual finding. He heard a monstrous allegation and he did nothing except the bare minimum of reporting it to his ostensible boss. No one disputes that. The problem is, to assume that the AD was actually Joe Paterno's boss is naive in the extreme. If Paterno wanted the situation investigated and exposed, it would have been. The fact that no significant action was taken is clear evidence that Paterno wanted no action taken.

Second, the enormity of the crimes Sandusky (allegedly) committed and that Paterno covered up makes this more than simply "the tragic ending of a legendary career." If this were, say, a steroid scandal or some kind of money scandal then sure. This would be a case of poor judgment. But of course, we are talking about the rape of children. That severity of that crime -- a crime against humanity, really -- pretty much wipes out everything else. What other actions could possibly provide a moral balance against that. "Sure, he knowingly allowed a child-rapist to remain free and continue raping but look, he built an awesome library!" Just doesn't work.

To me, it is pretty clear that Posnanski for a variety of reasons isn't seeing the "warts and all" story. And the fact that anyone would consider the cover-up of serial child molestation to be a "wart" on an otherwise brilliant career speaks volumes.
First, it is difficult to really have this conversation until we know what "knowingly covered this up" really means. That Joe Paterno did report indicates something a little different than a cover-up. His lack of action was immoral, but he still took more action than others.

To assume the AD was Paterno's boss is naivete in the extreme again is painting what any response is in an extremely broad brush. Paterno had a lot of power at Penn State, but the AD also had a lot of power. That power may not have been the ability to force Paterno out, but he certainly had the power and resources to conduct the investigation. Paterno's position would have been to ask for an investigation to be done, either through the university of through the police. He couldn't have done it himself. Paterno's inaction, again, was immoral, but there are gradients of morality. He was more moral than Sandusky. He was more moral than Curley and Schultz. Technically, if Curley and Schultz had done their jobs, Paterno would look like a hero who despite the criminal being his friend, reported him up the chain and it was taken care of. That hypothetical shows that focusing on Paterno makes this only an individual failure, not an institutional failure. Had Paterno wanted to cover this up, he wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

As to child rape wiping out everything he does, it depends on what sense. If morality is a balance sheet of debits and credits, sure I guess. If the institution's success was also the root of its failure, than I can see that as well. From a sense of events that happened, clearly child rape does not wipe out the good the institution has done. The library still exists, as do the many student athletes who benefited from the education they were required by the institution to get. You can't write a biography using the the first two senses. What do you do? Every paragraph include a sentence about how Joe Paterno is complicit in child rape? In the chapter where you mention his library, do you remind everyone that it was built on the backs of raped children? And in all seriousness, it goes way beyond a fucking library. If it didn't, this tragedy wouldn't have the same gravamen.

There is a way to express moral outrage without ignoring the details and history of what has happened in the institution as a whole. Generally, people are not interested in that. I think Posnanski dropped the ball in explaining that this time. I think he has a better chance in the book, after he has had time to reflect.
 

Alternate34

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Totally agree with this, and you make a good point about exactly where the issue stands currently. Its interesting that much of the Paterno commentary has started to take a reactive shape; simply excoriating in anticipation of the defenses some will offer him now that he's been fired. The commentary comes so fast now that many seem to feel compelled to refute arguments or defenses they're sensing on the horizon instead of dealing with the concepts in front of them right now. You're closer to the reality of the situation than what I last wrote, but that's part of what I was getting at.


Great points here. I'm not real happy with that last line of my post in particular because it does read as being hostile towards a critical thinking that might arrive at a conclusion involving something short of crucifying Paterno, which wasn't my intention. I am still hung up on the idea that any effort to add nuance to Paterno's situation right now is unnecessary and largely in poor taste considering there are rape victims in this case we don't even have the identity of--but that doesn't mean it isn't there, valid, and that it shouldn't be highlighted in an effort to understand the totality of all this at some point. I guess I'm saying, "we'll get to the Paterno end of this, for now, he's in the discard pile and well deserving of it."
Not much to say but that I totally agree.
 

Tartan

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What part of this:



suggests he can't see the "warts and all story?"
Given the amount of time it'll take to write this book, at which point I assume/hope that emotions with have settled down a tad, and the amount of research that'll be necessary at a bare minimum, I still have plenty of hope that Posnanski will be able to write a good book.
 

Alternate34

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Hold on. You just pissed on journalists and columnists for criticizing Paterno for his role in the scandal. So why are they criticizing him? Because they looked at the grand jury report, added to that their own knowledge about how Paterno runs his program and his personality, and have come to the conclusion that he knew what Sandusky did and turned a blind eye, that he buried this to protect his program's rep by getting the guy to "retire" with dignity and then allowing him to continue enjoying access and other perks of the program for more 13 years. How is that being "afraid" to explain something?

The only irony is that the lack of critical thinking and analysis going on is coming from people who still think they're owed the right to watch or play in a football game or bellyaching that an employee is owed something more personal than a phone call after his own actions, and the actions of his longtime friend and former colleague, threaten to take down the good standing of an entire university.
I have pissed on journalists and columnists for not just criticizing Paterno, but for making him the entire story. Yeah, Paterno has a lot of power. He isn't the entirety of the institution. Maybe he is the reason why Curley and Schultz didn't do anything, but I highly doubt it. The Paterno focus distorts what actually happened and how it happened, which ultimately makes the reporting useless because it provides no information on how to prevent this in the future. Many people failed here and it wasn't because of Paterno. The Second Mile charity, a charity that Paterno is not a major figure in, was notified of this as well and no one did anything there! It was wrong to lionize Paterno originally and it is wrong to portray him as the primary villain. The media should be getting more information on everyone else instead of spending their time blasting Paterno, speculating whether the Board of Trustees will be letting him coach.

Your last paragraph is ridiculous. Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. To associate my comments with that of a Paterno defender, or those who worry about how he was fired is constructing a straw man to the highest degree. Just in case you are unaware, a straw man is when you construct someone's arguments in their weakest form and then answer them as if you were answering their argument.

Edit - I really can't believe your myopia. I essentially state that the media should go beyond their focus of Paterno and provide more information on the other villains and the entire institution, and you associate me with Paterno defenders. Are you so oblivious as to the irony that making Paterno the center of this is just the flipside of what the idiot students defending Paterno are doing? And I don't mean flipside as in the goodside, I mean that it follows the same vapid style of rhetoric, just in vilifying Paterno rather than praising him. Some SI article indicated that now that Paterno is fired, it is time to heal. That is exactly the load of bullshit that ignores the institutional nature of this. Paterno was not Iago. Lots of people are complicit in this and not because of Paterno.
 

Shelterdog

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Given the amount of time it'll take to write this book, at which point I assume/hope that emotions with have settled down a tad, and the amount of research that'll be necessary at a bare minimum, I still have plenty of hope that Posnanski will be able to write a good book.
Yes. I don't like the column either but Pos gets the benefit of the doubt from me until I actually read the book.
 
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Your last paragraph is ridiculous. Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. To associate my comments with that of a Paterno defender, or those who worry about how he was fired is constructing a straw man to the highest degree. Just in case you are unaware, a straw man is when you construct someone's arguments in their weakest form and then answer them as if you were answering their argument.
Where did I call you a Paterno defender? I don't know if you are or you aren't. I am talking about the students who were rioting in support of Joe/against the Board of Trustees; the people saying there's no reason to cancel Saturday's game or the remainder of games this season; and people like Pos and others who are upset that Paterno wasn't shown more courtesy or respect for his 60+ tenure to be fired in person. If that's you, then yes, I am talking about you.

And gosh, thanks for the definition of "straw man." I've never heard that term or seen it in action despite being on this board for 7 years.
 

Alternate34

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Where did I call you a Paterno defender? I don't know if you are or you aren't. I am talking about the students who were rioting in support of Joe/against the Board of Trustees; the people saying there's no reason to cancel Saturday's game or the remainder of games this season; and people like Pos and others who are upset that Paterno wasn't shown more courtesy or respect for his 60+ tenure to be fired in person. If that's you, then yes, I am talking about you.

And gosh, thanks for the definition of "straw man." I've never heard that term or seen it in action despite being on this board for 7 years.
Just making sure. You mentioned it in a response to my post which had nothing to do with it, so I was a little confused. That and your blanket statements about the sickness of everyone in State College in the other thread, forgive me if I get the impression that you cut wide swathes with your arguments.
 

KenTremendous

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To me, it is pretty clear that Posnanski for a variety of reasons isn't seeing the "warts and all" story. And the fact that anyone would consider the cover-up of serial child molestation to be a "wart" on an otherwise brilliant career speaks volumes.
A couple things, and I'm honestly not trying to start arguments here.

1. The phrase "warts and all" is obviously shorthand. No one on earth, and certainly not Posnanski, thinks of this as a "wart."

2. I believe that his point in the quote I clipped earlier -- as well as the ones others have clipped -- is that as a biographer, his job is to write about the entirety of Paterno's life. He's not writing a book on the scandal -- which would be nothing but shock and horror -- and he's not writing a book (as of a week ago) solely on the man's football career, which would be positivity and inspiration. That's why he all-caps'd the "OF COURSE I will." He is saying that the guy has had a long, long life, the end of which has now taken a horrifying turn into the blackest depths of humanity, and his (Posnanski's) job now is to take a deep breath, get the story, and write the whole thing.

3. I know Posnanski a little -- not well, but a little -- and I'd bet everything I own that the final project will be complete, uncompromising, tough, and fair. If the story is, as many people assume, that the guy just absolutely failed, morally, ethically, and/or legally, he won't try to sugarcoat it.
 

ossie schreckengost

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posnanski, as always being one of the few the strong an clear voices in american sportswriting, is foremost insisting on his right to form an opinion about the case sandusky and penn state and paterno for himself. away from the madding crowd. to the mob it´s unsettling, but it has always been his modus operandi.

one of posnanski´s strenghts´ has always been his deeply historically informed, infused, perspective on people and events and institutions. be it the negro leagues baseball museum or the ´75 world series or joe paterno. the "longue duree"-aspects of everything NOW.

in all of his writings poz always has been more of a historian than a columnist, and he sure as shit is not the "daily opinion"-guy to satisfy the manichean bloodlust of an audience wanton to kill the rapist and his enablers.

and poz did get it right: in a world full of injustices and pain THIS IS THE MOMENT for all of us to state how righteous we are. to make a stand. cheaply.how we all abhorr people who anally rape 10 year old children. we are the 100 percent. this is so right it´s ridiculous.

anyway. poz is more or less, and i´m not joking, in the position of a biographer of adolf hitler´s. pre the nuremburg trials. and there´s just one contemporary american sportswriter who could get it done. and it´s joe posnanski.
 

dcmissle

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This would be splendid -- refusing to reserve judgment on a biography that no one has read and that isn't finished.

I don't agree with Joe that it was premature to ax Joe, which he seems to be saying. I emphatically believe that it is premature to pass judgment on Joe.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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A couple things, and I'm honestly not trying to start arguments here.

1. The phrase "warts and all" is obviously shorthand. No one on earth, and certainly not Posnanski, thinks of this as a "wart."

2. I believe that his point in the quote I clipped earlier -- as well as the ones others have clipped -- is that as a biographer, his job is to write about the entirety of Paterno's life. He's not writing a book on the scandal -- which would be nothing but shock and horror -- and he's not writing a book (as of a week ago) solely on the man's football career, which would be positivity and inspiration. That's why he all-caps'd the "OF COURSE I will." He is saying that the guy has had a long, long life, the end of which has now taken a horrifying turn into the blackest depths of humanity, and his (Posnanski's) job now is to take a deep breath, get the story, and write the whole thing.

3. I know Posnanski a little -- not well, but a little -- and I'd bet everything I own that the final project will be complete, uncompromising, tough, and fair. If the story is, as many people assume, that the guy just absolutely failed, morally, ethically, and/or legally, he won't try to sugarcoat it.
I don't want to start any arguments either. I have no doubt that Posnanski is capable of writing a good, even great biography of Paterno or anyone he sets his sights on. And I understand that the events of the past week have been disorientng to say the least. Very few people -- neither Paterno's defenders or his detractors -- are thinking clearly right now. I also believe, as I mentioned above, that Posnanski had one book in mind and now, literally overnight, he's faced with an entirely different book -- one that he never anticipated and didn't sign up for.

That's quite a shock to the system for any writer. So I'm hoping and assuming that with time for reflection he will, as he said, be able to "digest" what just happened and grasp the emotional context of his own comments.

My main issue isn't with Posnanski saying he refuses to rush to judgment. I would admire him for that if all I thought he was doing was setting himself apart from the lynch mob mentality. Unfortunately, he went a step further and got into "it's a shame the way the university treated him" territory. I don't see any justification for that point of view other than a blind spot when it comes to Paterno. The university did not treat Paterno unfairly. The trustees did exactly what they needed to do and if anything, they acted too slowly and with too much deference. In fact, they waited until Paterno himself forced their hand by publicly stating, in so many words, "I'll deal with this my way and you'll keep out of it!" In light of what's contained in the Grand Jury report, there was simply no way the university could justify keeping Paterno on board one more minute.

As for Posnanski's book, sure, a biography should be "the entirety of Paterno's life." But again, given the heinous nature of the circumstances that brought his career to an end, the real question of any book about Paterno has got to be, "How did he get to this point?" It's not a matter of sugarcoating it. It's a matter of answering the question, "Who is this man?" How does a man who's been revered for his virtue end up participating in a cover-up of child-rape?

It's not as if all of this happened overnight. It's very likely (and I believe that it will eventually be confirmed) that Paterno was aware of Sandusky's activities at least since 1998. That's almost 14 years, more than 25 percent of his career as head coach of Penn State football. That's not an insignificant period of time. How the hell did that happen? What is wrong with this man? In my opinion, that's the only Paterno book worth writing, or reading at this point. I'm concerned that a writer who's angry that Paterno hasn't been treated with sufficient dignity in this situation will not be the best writer for the subject.

But again, hopefully with time, he'll get some perspective. I'm sure that this has been the weirdest week of Posnanski's career.
 

jon abbey

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Today's Media column in the NY Post, not a lot of new info but a quote from the publisher that says the book is still a go:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/posnanski_still_in_the_game_with_9Exoqj3XZbL1MJZSvlcR9N
 

mandro ramtinez

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I don't agree with Joe that it was premature to ax Joe, which he seems to be saying. I emphatically believe that it is premature to pass judgment on Joe.
Based on these statements in Posnanski's column, I think he believes that Paterno should have been terminated immediately and not be allowed to coach another game.

1. I think Joe Paterno had the responsibility as a leader and a man to stop the horrific rapes allegedly committed by Jerry Sandusky, and I believe he will have regrets about this for the rest of his life.

2. Because of this, Joe Paterno could no longer coach at Penn State University.
 

Yo La Tengo

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This would be splendid -- refusing to reserve judgment on a biography that no one has read and that isn't finished.

I don't agree with Joe that it was premature to ax Joe, which he seems to be saying. I emphatically believe that it is premature to pass judgment on Joe.

What more do we need to know before we pass judgment? At the core of Posnanski's article is a plea to wait for the facts... what about these facts, from Paterno's own mouth?

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators."

So, facts: a distraught assistant coach reports to Paterno that he witnessed an inappropriate incident in the shower of the Penn State locker room involving Sandusky. This is the baseline. If that was the report he received, verbatim, he should be fired for failing to investigate. No responsible person in a position of leadership could receive that cryptic message and simply pass it up the line. It was his responsibility to get the details. Assuming that his entire involvement and knowledge consisted of receiving a message from a distraught assistant coach that Sandusky was engaging in inappropriate behavior in the shower, Paterno's disengagement, his failure to investigate, allowed Sandusky to abuse other children, possibly many more. If those four sentences truly sum up Paterno's involvement, his inaction and the catastrophic results fully justify his being fired and his legacy being permanently tarnished.

Posnanski is flat wrong. We absolutely do not need to wait for additional facts to be outraged at Joe Paterno's behavior. As a leader and respected figure, he needed to ask the obvious questions and then follow-up. If his statement is accurate, he failed miserably. And while I'm afraid that we're going to learn that the inaction was significantly more egregious than his initial version of the facts (which are contradicted by the Grand Jury report), it is perfectly appropriate to harshly condemn his failure to live up to his public image.

The fact that we might learn additional, more damaging facts that cause us to be further disillusioned with Paterno in no way means we cannot pass judgment now.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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What more do we need to know before we pass judgment? At the core of Posnanski's article is a plea to wait for the facts... what about these facts, from Paterno's own mouth?

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators."

So, facts: a distraught assistant coach reports to Paterno that he witnessed an inappropriate incident in the shower of the Penn State locker room involving Sandusky. This is the baseline. If that was the report he received, verbatim, he should be fired for failing to investigate. No responsible person in a position of leadership could receive that cryptic message and simply pass it up the line. It was his responsibility to get the details. Assuming that his entire involvement and knowledge consisted of receiving a message from a distraught assistant coach that Sandusky was engaging in inappropriate behavior in the shower, Paterno's disengagement, his failure to investigate, allowed Sandusky to abuse other children, possibly many more. If those four sentences truly sum up Paterno's involvement, his inaction and the catastrophic results fully justify his being fired and his legacy being permanently tarnished.

Posnanski is flat wrong. We absolutely do not need to wait for additional facts to be outraged at Joe Paterno's behavior. As a leader and respected figure, he needed to ask the obvious questions and then follow-up. If his statement is accurate, he failed miserably. And while I'm afraid that we're going to learn that the inaction was significantly more egregious than his initial version of the facts (which are contradicted by the Grand Jury report), it is perfectly appropriate to harshly condemn his failure to live up to his public image.

The fact that we might learn additional, more damaging facts that cause us to be further disillusioned with Paterno in no way means we cannot pass judgment now.
This is exactly right. And in fact, the Grand Jury report states that Paterno testified he was told that there was activity "of a sexual nature" in the shower, so Paterno is splitting hairs in his public (non-oath-bound) statement that he was not told the "very specific actions" related in the Grand Jury report. I'm afraid Paterno's public statement is not credible. Is he saying that McQueary who by all accounts was very distraught came to him and said, "Coach, I saw something of a sexual nature!" Why would McQueary go into such detail for the Grand Jury but tone it down it for Paterno?

Anyway, it absolutely correct that there are already enough facts on the record to know that Paterno had a serious moral and ethical failure, one which to this day he fails to acknowledge in any meaningful way. And yes, I also believe that the full set of facts have yet to come out, and when they do, they will be far more horrifying than what we already know and will cast Paterno in an even darker, more shameful light.
 

dcmissle

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What more do we need to know before we pass judgment? At the core of Posnanski's article is a plea to wait for the facts... what about these facts, from Paterno's own mouth?

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators."

So, facts: a distraught assistant coach reports to Paterno that he witnessed an inappropriate incident in the shower of the Penn State locker room involving Sandusky. This is the baseline. If that was the report he received, verbatim, he should be fired for failing to investigate. No responsible person in a position of leadership could receive that cryptic message and simply pass it up the line. It was his responsibility to get the details. Assuming that his entire involvement and knowledge consisted of receiving a message from a distraught assistant coach that Sandusky was engaging in inappropriate behavior in the shower, Paterno's disengagement, his failure to investigate, allowed Sandusky to abuse other children, possibly many more. If those four sentences truly sum up Paterno's involvement, his inaction and the catastrophic results fully justify his being fired and his legacy being permanently tarnished.

Posnanski is flat wrong. We absolutely do not need to wait for additional facts to be outraged at Joe Paterno's behavior. As a leader and respected figure, he needed to ask the obvious questions and then follow-up. If his statement is accurate, he failed miserably. And while I'm afraid that we're going to learn that the inaction was significantly more egregious than his initial version of the facts (which are contradicted by the Grand Jury report), it is perfectly appropriate to harshly condemn his failure to live up to his public image.

The fact that we might learn additional, more damaging facts that cause us to be further disillusioned with Paterno in no way means we cannot pass judgment now.
We are getting out Joes mixed up and it is MY fault.

I know enough about Joe Pa to be firmly convinced that his firing was necessary, and to that extent I part company with Joe PO.

I am not going to jump ugly on Joe PO for a book that has not even been finished, much less read.
 

Steve Dillard

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Between Joe Posnanski and Peter King, the argument for "wait for more facts" is fine in the abstract. However, those arguments ring hollow when you are writing a book about all the good Paterno did on a standard less than "grand jury under oath." Did Posnanski get sworn testimony about all the other aspects of Paterno's life that were in the book?

Then again, I'm not sure how much insight Posnanski's book would offer, if he lived in Happy Valley for a year to write about Paterno and the Penn State program, while missing the above the surface rumors from back in March about this scandal.
 

Yo La Tengo

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We are getting out Joes mixed up and it is MY fault.

I know enough about Joe Pa to be firmly convinced that his firing was necessary, and to that extent I part company with Joe PO.

I am not going to jump ugly on Joe PO for a book that has not even been finished, much less read.

Understood- my post was in response to Posnanski's article, and what I feel was a really lame argument in semi-defense of Paterno. I am actually looking forward to the book.
 

Worst Trade Evah

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Well, other than the fact that Posnanski was writing it, I had zero interest in a Paterno book. Couldn't have cared less about Penn State football. Now, I'm completely engrossed in the story, and I'm sure the book will be well worth reading -- even if it doesn't seem like I agree with Pos's take at the moment.
 

MarcSullivaFan

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Hoo-hoo-hoo hoosier land.
The Douthat piece was very good--fair to Paterno without excusing him at all. I imagine that once Pos has a chance to get some space from this moment, his perspective will be closer to this. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/opinion/sunday/douthat-the-devil-and-joe-paterno.html?_r=1

Pos has also been lead astray by his good instincts--he is a thoughtful, fair, and rational guy. When the whole sports world is bearing down on one person, his instinct is to step back and get a broader view before joining the angry mob. That was he did first, which seemed totally appropriate to me. But when the walls started closing in on Paterno, Pos' instincts let him down. Contrary to what blowhards like PK were tweeting, there were more than enough facts to warrant the anger toward Paterno. Indeed, Paterno's own admissions in the grand jury report were more than enough to make clear how massively Paterno failed as a human being. Which is all to say that while I'm a little disappointed with Pos, I fully expect him to come around and write a hell of a book. And because I admire him for the qualities that seemed to have undermined in this particular instance, it seems unfair to judge him too harshly.
 

Reverend

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While I’m not ready to write him off yet, nor do I think he will be unable to write a fantastic book about Paterno, I do think Poz screwed up. Mostly, I think he screwed up for not extending to Paterno’s former players the same consideration he’s extending to Paterno. So there’s an irony here in that I think Poz is ultimately moved by a deep sense of humanity on the one hand, with respect to his full engagement of Paterno the man. And yet this engagement may have caused him to lose sight of the complex and conflicting emotions that Paterno’s (and in many cases, Sandusky’s) past players are likely wrestling with as they try to sort this out. So his respect for the humanity of the one brings about the neglect of the humanity of others.

This irony is quite possibly—perhaps likely, to my mind—by the further irony that that is quite possibly what led to Paterno and others to neglect the experience of the victim out of their feelings about Sandusky.

And this is exactly what happens in these situations. And it is also why, while like many others I am appreciative of Alternate34’s thoughtful and incisive posting about this matter, I respectfully disagree with him in large measure.

And just because no one outside State College didn't know who his superiors were, evidence indicates that his superiors were far more culpable in this than Paterno. Paterno's lack of action was immoral, but he did take more action than those he reported this too.
First, it is difficult to really have this conversation until we know what "knowingly covered this up" really means. That Joe Paterno did report indicates something a little different than a cover-up. His lack of action was immoral, but he still took more action than others.
I cannot agree with this because this, itself, makes certain assumptions. Certainly, it is true that the evidence we have (bracketing legal process issues, day in court, etc. of which I am sure we are all aware) Paterno’s superiors bear a certain amount of culpability. But to claim that Paterno’s actions are superior is to make certain assumptions about the character and purposes of his actions. For example, in an extreme case, he could have been informing them that they had something they need to cover up. I do not think that’s what happened, but I mention it to illustrate that to claim Paterno did right to any extent is still interpretation, and assumptions that put his actions in a positive light are no more legitimate than the making of assumptions that cast them in a bad light which you rightly oppose.

So focusing on what we do know (or think we know), I keep coming back to two things:
  • Bracketing his legal responsibility, it appears that Paterno utterly failed McQueary. I know the details are fuzzy, but it seems to me that the details at this point can only reveal more precisely the manner in which he failed McQueary. McQueary did not go to the police. But he consulted Paterno, and his failure to go to the police must be considered a consequence of that. From the large-frame “story of the man” point of view—which gets back to Pox’s book—this is a critical juncture for a man such as Paterno was supposed to be.
  • Did Paterno ever have a conversation with Sandusky about any of this? He either did, or he didn’t. Once again, the answer to this question can only shed light on what sort of failing this constituted on the part of Paterno, and on what defect of character was involved which again bears on the Posnanski angle.

These two issues seem absolutely fundamental and critical to me, and yet I find their absence in the conversations and debates about this to be conspicuous? Is this a product of the media feeding frenzy? Perhaps. But on the other hand, as per above, I think if it is in fact the case, the problem isn’t over-moralizing per se as my problem would be that the emotionalism has caused them to miss some key points in favor of the broad brush—which is certainly a problem, but one method not kind. On the other, I haven’t seen the omission of the large swathes of the campus who are conflicted or concerned with the victims. I think that may be a bit of a strawman, albeit an unintentional one, as all the reporting I have seen has gone out of the way to point out precisely those angles. Granted, I’ve been at a conference so I haven’t been reading or watchging as deeply as some, but it may well be that in the era of media saturation, reading too deeply can drop a person into a self-selecting media bubble. But everything I’ve seen has contained many of the angles alleged to have been neglected.

The reason this matters to me is that while I agree that media coverage does not prevent scandal, I don’t really see the media as a causal factors in cover-ups either. I think the cover-ups happen for the most mundane of reasons, such as discomfort with the wrongs involved, anxiety, an inability to see friends as predators and a belief in an innate sense of a person divorced from their actions, and even, for want of a less dramatic word, basic cowardice. Certainly, there may be fear that the scent of a wrongful allegation will destroy an institution.

But this in particular jumped out at me:
What does this type of reporting do? It doesn't prevent these scandals and cover-ups from happening. It certainly doesn't stop a Sandusky. One would hope that the immense backlash would stop people from initiating cover-ups. However, there are ways this type of reporting encourages coverups. It makes friends of the pedophile overcautious about reporting these things because they know that even a whiff of this would set up a firestorm that ruins a person's life, which I think is one factor in why people did engage in the cover-up, considering that everyone involved knew Sandusky for decades and were friends with him. It creates a fear that if a pedophile is outed, it will destroy the institution no matter what because there will always be questions about whether he could have been discovered earlier and someone might have kept quiet at some point. These beliefs are certainly irrational, but with the way the media conducts itself, the irrationality critique runs both ways as the media is already behaving irrationally.
I do not understand why these beliefs would be irrational. Indeed, it seems to me this case underscores the very rationality of the belief. Sandusky could have been discovered earlier.

In fact, he was.

That, to me, is the cause for the emotionality—the intensity here does not stem from an abject conjecture or bs hypothetical, but from the abominable wrongs actually done and the fact that good men enabled the abomination made it possible for its perpetuation.

And, to me, that is how the problem of the evil man is raised. How can good men do evil? Does this mean they were not, in fact, good men, and we were all somehow deceived? Does this mean humans are irrevocably flawed, fallen creatures such that good is altogether illusory? Or is it that humans are neither good nor evil?

Cases such as this raise the fundamental questions regarding the nature of human being with which we have wrestled for the entire history of civilization; they are not a creation of the media.

I agree, of course, in the larger sense that much coverage and commenting will miss the nuance. But I hold further hope that as the dust settles, conversations about just such nuance and the failures in our nature cause us to make such a mess of things. But while I agree that the outrage may not be useful and agree further that attempts such as yours to rein it in are an important part of the process of getting there, I also see the outburst as perhaps a precondition to getting there, and must accept it as itself another part of the humanity that is part and parcel of this whole affair.

In that vein, I certainly agree with this:
There is a way to express moral outrage without ignoring the details and history of what has happened in the institution as a whole. Generally, people are not interested in that. I think Posnanski dropped the ball in explaining that this time. I think he has a better chance in the book, after he has had time to reflect.
But once upon a time, we might not have had the opportunity to understand what goes on in situations such as this. And this knowledge is critical—as you point out, there are huge differences already between generational understanding of these problems. Even today, how many people realize how high the recidivism rate is for sex offenders of all kinds, be it against children or adults, and that if you turn a blind eye to one you are most likely turning a blind eye to many, many more, both past and future.

A bit of wailing and gnashing of teeth may not be too high a price to pay for a potential transition to a greater understanding of such matters. But yes, the hope is that we move towards that moment of greater understanding, which requires the reflection you mention.

But I also agree with Seabass171 that Poz failed to extend the consideration he extended to Paterno to the former players that he excoriated in his post. In a sense, I find his extending of consideration to Paterno to be more defensible in that I believe it arises from his compassionate wrestling with the problems of humanity this affair raises. As such, his failure to see that same process going on in Paterno’s former players is unfair to them.

But it’s also a very human failure. And as Shelterdog points out, Poz has earned the benefit of the doubt from me, in large measure precisely because I think his wrestling with the complexity of these issues makes him precisely the person to write this book.

I rather think many great journalists may have had various and conflicting emotions, views, ideas and doubts in engaging their subject material, some of which may have appalled their audiences. But we never used to see them back when they didn’t have blogs.

This could be a book for the ages. And I don't mean just a sports book for the ages.
 

Byrdbrain

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[*]Did Paterno ever have a conversation with Sandusky about any of this? He either did, or he didn’t. Once again, the answer to this question can only shed light on what sort of failing this constituted on the part of Paterno, and on what defect of character was involved which again bears on the Posnanski angle.
Per Paterno's son Joe, never, not once uttered a single word about any of this to Sandusky.
 
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I hope people don't think that -- if true -- absolves Paterno in any way. The whole uproar is about the fact that he never followed up on the accusation made by McQueary with anyone -- with Sandusky, with McQueary, with the cops, with the administrators he claims to have informed. To say it strains credulity about human nature, about how high-powered college coaches (never mind the most powerful one of them all) try to stay on top of everything that could impact their program, is a grotesque understatement.

Edit: typo
 

Reverend

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Per Paterno's son Joe, never, not once uttered a single word about any of this to Sandusky.
Ah. Thanks.

What a jerk. Or a coward. Or a fool. or... ah, heck.

I hope people don't think that -- if true -- absolves Paterno in any way. The whole uproar is about the fact that he never followed up on the accusation made by McQueary with anyone -- with Sandusky, with McQueary, with the cops, with the administrators he claims to have informed. To say it strain credulity about human nature, about how high-powered college coaches (never mind the most powerful one of them all) try to stay on top of everything that could impact their program, is a grotesque understatement.
I would be surprised if anyone thought there was absolution there, but I could be naive.

My point is that we know Paterno was negligent there, it's just a matter of the specific manner in which he went about his negligence. And in no way am I treating negligence lightly, particularly for those who take on responsibility--indeed, for those whom are quite famous for it.

The whole teaching players to be men thing is a morbidly fascinating piece of macabre narrative at this point.
 

JBill

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Pos on twitter:

I want to thank everyone for support (and non-support too). I am now going underground. I'll see you all on the other side.
Not sure what going underground means, but good luck to him, hope he is able to sort through this mess.