Jones, Hightower, and Collins - You Pick

ifmanis5 · Nov 4, 2015

Jones
Collins
HT

jasail · Nov 4, 2015

I agree with your general argument and conclusion. In terms of both scheme and depth Collins and Hightower are more valuable to the Patriots than Jones. So, those are the two guys that should be extended. I like Jones a lot, but he is probably going to be overvalued in another system and there are guys that the Pats can plug in to fill his role in BB's system.

RedOctober3829 · Nov 4, 2015

Collins
Hightower
Jones

Collins is the most versatile defensive player in the NFL. He's an athletic freak. Hightower is a budding star at MLB. Jones is really good, but he can be replaced.

jsinger121 · Nov 4, 2015

Collins
Hightower
Jones

Number45forever · Nov 4, 2015

Collins
Hightower
Jones

For me, there are lots of pass rushers. Really great, really athletic linebackers are such a luxury in the modern NFL. Hightower last year and this year is moving so, so well.

But really, I'm hoping these three are anchors of the defense for the next 5-7 years.

ifmanis5 · Nov 4, 2015

For a team with only one reliable pass rusher and that puts a big value on setting the edge I'd say Jones is pretty important.

Kliq · Nov 4, 2015

Under BB the Patriots have never really required a top tier pass rusher. In the market, Jones is worth the most because pass rushers are the most valuable players in Free Agency, but for the Patriots I don't think they are really that important. The Pats have always been successful using good but not great pass rushers in the past like Nink, Rosevelt Colvin, Mike Vrabel, etc. I'm not marginalizing those players, just pointing out that having a Julius Peppers/Jared Allen/Jason Taylor type player has never been critical to the Patriots success. On the other hand, having an athletic, versatile linebacker has always been a calling card of the Pats D, which in turn makes Collins the most valuable of the bunch.

Toe Nash · Nov 4, 2015

Jones has seemed to battle injuries more than the other two guys and hasn't been as effective playing through them. If they were all healthy they'd be close (though I'd still probably go with the LBs first), but that would be a big reason to rank him lower in my book.

Marciano490 · Nov 4, 2015

Is it assumed the Pats won't be able to afford all three when the time comes, or is this just an academic exercise?

Byrdbrain · Nov 4, 2015

The conventional wisdom(for whatever that is worth) is that it will be difficult for the Pats to sign all three. I would think they could sign two of them and given that option I would absolutely put the two linebacker first.
I really like Jones but I see him more as a luxury than a need.

Eddie Jurak · Nov 4, 2015

I agree with what seems to be the consensus: Collins Hightower Jones. The difference I think is that jones is a nice luxury to have; the other two are more foundational players in the Pats system.

ifmanis5 · Nov 4, 2015

On the open market pass rushing DE are paid considerably more than other players. Whether or not the Pats value that we shall see but Jones is by far the most valuable on the open market.

Ferm Sheller · Nov 4, 2015

Damn, when I saw the thread title, I thought we'd be discussing "marry, murder, fuck." No longer interested.

GregHarris · Nov 4, 2015

Follow up: Is this LB/DE group better then the 2001-2004 group?

soxfan121 · Nov 4, 2015

GregHarris said:
Follow up: Is this LB/DE group better then the 2001-2004 group?

Not even close. Run a lap for suggesting it. ;-)

McGinest, Seymour & Bruschi are all borderline gold jacket candidates. Ty Warren, young Vince, old Ted Washington & Keith Traylor, Roman Phifer, Ted Johnson, Bobby Hamilton & Anthony Pleasant, and busted up Roosevelt Colvin was more talented.

Let's talk about this again in five years when Jones, Collins and Hightower have several more healthy seasons under their belt.

Devizier · Nov 4, 2015

As far as I can tell, the earliest the Patriots have to make this decision is after next season, right?

My thoughts are:

1) Collins
2) Jones
3) Hightower

Would love to keep all three, however.

Byrdbrain · Nov 4, 2015

ifmanis5 said:
On the open market pass rushing DE are paid considerably more than other players. Whether or not the Pats value that we shall see but Jones is by far the most valuable on the open market.

This is absolutely true and is another reason Jones would be at the bottom of my list.

chief1 · Nov 4, 2015

DH
Collins
Jones

bsj · Nov 4, 2015

Devizier said:
As far as I can tell, the earliest the Patriots have to make this decision is after next season, right?

My thoughts are:

1) Collins
2) Jones
3) Hightower

Would love to keep all three, however.

same

Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt · Nov 4, 2015

Collins
Hightower
Jones

Jones is putting together a rather well-timed walk year, but he's the least valuable of the three, IMO, plays a slightly less valuable position in this D and is the player (of those three) for whom there is already a decent replacement on the roster (Sheard), as well as potential down-the-road replacements in Grissom and Flowers.

Edit fat thumbs

tims4wins · Nov 4, 2015

Not quite a walk year since the Pats own 5th year options on DH and Jones. Since Collins was a 2nd round pick all three are up after 2016

mt8thsw9th · Nov 4, 2015

soxfan121 said:
Not even close. Run a lap for suggesting it. ;-)

McGinest, Seymour & Bruschi are all borderline gold jacket candidates. Ty Warren, young Vince, old Ted Washington & Keith Traylor, Roman Phifer, Ted Johnson, Bobby Hamilton & Anthony Pleasant, and busted up Roosevelt Colvin was more talented.

Let's talk about this again in five years when Jones, Collins and Hightower have several more healthy seasons under their belt.

For someone so adamant about this, how on earth could you leave out Mike Vrabel?

soxfan121 · Nov 4, 2015

mt8thsw9th said:
For someone so adamant about this, how on earth could you leave out Mike Vrabel?

I'll run a lap.

Reverend · Nov 4, 2015

soxfan121 said:
I'll run a lap.

Fair's fair.

Phragle · Nov 4, 2015

Fuck this. Sign all three.

SeoulSoxFan · Nov 4, 2015

Collins and HT are 1A and 1B.

Whatever happens with Jones happens.

bigq · Nov 4, 2015

GregHarris said:
Follow up: Is this LB/DE group better then the 2001-2004 group?

As a group, no. However on an individual basis, disregarding that this year's team does not have the breadth of experience as the other groups, I think a case could be made that Jones, Hightower and Collins are performing as well as if not better than their counterparts from earlier teams.

[tablegrid= DE-LB Starters ]2001 2002 2003 2004 2015 B Hamilton W McGinest B Hamilton T Warren R Ninkovich R Seymour M Vrabel W McGinest W McGinest C Jones M Vrabel T Bruschi R Phifer T Johnson J Collins T Bruschi T Johnson T Bruschi T Bruschi J Freeny R Phifer R Phifer M Vrabel M Vrabel D Hightower [/tablegrid]

Edit: fixed the table

Marciano490 · Nov 4, 2015

Phragle said:
Fuck this. Sign all three.

I dunno. Giselle retired, how much salary can Tom give back at this point?

Phragle · Nov 4, 2015

Marciano490 said:
I dunno. Giselle retired, how much salary can Tom give back at this point?

Doesn't matter the cap is going up. Just sign all of them before it does.

tims4wins · Nov 5, 2015

While I love Collins, and his playmaking and athleticism are off the charts, I still think DH is the straw that stirs the drink. So I would probably go

1) DH
2) Collins
3) Jones

But... please sign them all, Bill.

SeoulSoxFan · Nov 5, 2015

Phragle said:
Doesn't matter the cap is going up. Just sign all of them before it does.

phragle rocks.

tims4wins · Nov 5, 2015

Rudi Fingers · Nov 5, 2015

Collins
Hightower
Jones

And to further reinforce the brilliance of drafting Jones and Hightower in the 2012 first round, I give you this:

GregHarris · Nov 5, 2015

Ok I'll run a lap.
The best part is, all three will be here until end of the 2016 season, assuming they pick up the options or use the options as leverage to extend. I'd definitely use Collins low cost 2016 to get him to extend with a significant pay raise and guarantees for immediate payout in 2016.

I vaguely remember SOSH going after Hightower often because of his poor play back there. That 2012 season seems so long ago.

Eddie Jurak · Nov 5, 2015

I think Hightower's role has evolved to be more tailored to his strengths. (Kind of like Chung). He fits much better playing with Collins than with, say, Bradond Spkies.

Section15Box113 · Nov 5, 2015

So which WEEI personality reads this thread? Fauria, Merloni & Dickerson are currently discussing: "if you could only keep one, would it be Hightower or Collins?"

soxfan121 · Nov 5, 2015

GregHarris said:
Ok I'll run a lap.
The best part is, all three will be here until end of the 2016 season, assuming they pick up the options or use the options as leverage to extend. I'd definitely use Collins low cost 2016 to get him to extend with a significant pay raise and guarantees for immediate payout in 2016.

I vaguely remember SOSH going after Hightower often because of his poor play back there. That 2012 season seems so long ago.

Collins is also the oldest of the three. However, I don't even have a guess at what it would take to sign up each, let alone all three.

Gronkowksi's deal being so good for the team (if he stays healthy) certainly helps matters.

Ed Hillel · Nov 5, 2015

That Tom Brady guy has a decent contract, too. There was certainly no guarantee he'd be playing at this level when the contract was signed, but what a deal. He'd probably get 25-30 million a year on the open market, even at his age. Not sure how many years teams would be willing to go, but you get the point. What a man.

Regarding Hightower, let's not forget Belichick jumped in front of the Ravens, who really wanted Hightower. Same thing he did to Harbaugh with Gronk. Fatality.

Eddie Jurak · Nov 5, 2015

Section15Box113 said:
So which WEEI personality reads this thread? Fauria, Merloni & Dickerson are currently discussing: "if you could only keep one, would it be Hightower or Collins?"

I don't think it will come down to just one, at least not right away. Jones is probably gone after 2016, but if they can reach an agreement with either Collins or Hightower before they hit free agency, they can at least franchise the other one.

ALiveH · Nov 5, 2015

#1 - Collins. all the reasons stated on versatility & athleticism.
#2 - Jones. he is one of the better edge rushers in the league IMHO and i feel it gets masked somewhat in the patriots scheme. or maybe i still have PTSD from all those years we had a non-existent pass rush.
#3 - Hightower. the MLB position has been deeply devalued in today's pass-happy game. don't get me wrong, great player but i rank Collins & Jones way higher in importance to the scheme & difficulty to replace.

tims4wins · Nov 5, 2015

Could you edit the OP and add a poll? Maybe question 1 as if you had to keep 2 of 3, which 2, and a second question with a rank em 1-2-3

Phragle · Nov 5, 2015

soxfan121 said:
Collins is also the oldest of the three. However, I don't even have a guess at what it would take to sign up each, let alone all three.

Gronkowksi's deal being so good for the team (if he stays healthy) certainly helps matters.

There have been a few comparable linebackers extended recently. Wagner, Kuechly, David and maybe others I'm forgetting. The closest comparable to Jones is probably Quinn. Maybe 5 and 50 for the linebackers and 5 and 75 for Jones?

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Nov 5, 2015

ALiveH said:
#1 - Collins. all the reasons stated on versatility & athleticism.
#2 - Jones. he is one of the better edge rushers in the league IMHO and i feel it gets masked somewhat in the patriots scheme. or maybe i still have PTSD from all those years we had a non-existent pass rush.
#3 - Hightower. the MLB position has been deeply devalued in today's pass-happy game. don't get me wrong, great player but i rank Collins & Jones way higher in importance to the scheme & difficulty to replace.

This is how I prioritize them as well, for much the same reasons. Collins should also be the easiest to resign given that we will have leverage on him with another low money year in 2016 coming up. In addition to his importance to the defense, Collins has never had a significant injury and is the type of elite athlete that may age fairly well.

As much as I love Hightower, I'm skeptical about the prospect of signing him long term. He gets banged up a fair amount and already lacks elite mobility. If he loses a step in the aging process, I could see him just being too slow to be anything more than an (oft injured) run stuffer and banger in the middle. ILBs seem a little like RBs in that paying top dollar for their age 27+ seasons is a particularly risky proposition. There are a lot of cautionary tales out there of teams signing ILBs to big second contracts around age 26 who then fell apart physically and/or saw a steep decline in their play - our own Jerod Mayo, Jon Beason, David Harris, Lawrence Timmons, Brian Cushing, Sean Lee, DeMeco Ryans, Paul Posluzny, etc. I'm willing to make an exception for Collins because he's a freak but I don't want to commit big money to both guys.

amarshal2 · Nov 5, 2015

I really have a problem choosing between Collins and DH. I think they're wonderfully complimentary and both would be worse off without the other.

Others may disagree but I see Collins as somewhat similar to Troy Polamalu. Collins doesn't freelance or improvise and just play with instinct, but he is a guy who is more valuable when the other 10 guys are doing their jobs. The fact that he's so good at rushing the passer and dropping into coverage make him really difficult for teams to account for -- they literally don't know what he's going to do on any given play. I think the not knowing aspect of it makes him more dangerous. If you had a crappier defense or if you didn't have DH to really control the running game then I think Collins would be more limited in his impact.

As for Hightower -- is there a player in the NFL better at crashing down on the line of scrimmage and just completely blowing up the play with physicality? Also, this idea that it's a passing league and therefore he's less valuable doesn't cut it for me. He's not just tough against the run, he's an absolute beast of a blitzer. The issue with DH as we've seen is he's not as good when he can't commit to blowing up the line of scrimmage. When he struggled it was when he was more frequently asked to play a coverage role on TEs and he wasn't as sure of what he was doing on a given play. That's why having Collins (and Chung) be the guy who can really play the coverage role well when needed to free DH up to do what he does best makes him so much better with Collins. I love Kuechly and Wagner -- both have more range than DH in coverage and are physical in their own right but they're maybe not quite as physical as DH. He is probably a half notch below them as he is, in my opinion, a superior pass rusher somewhat offsetting their coverage abilities.

In short, I think ranking DH last is really harsh. I'm not really convinced Collins is any better in a vacuum. I do think Collins is the flashier of the two for the Patriots because DH is the man in the middle keeping everything under control allowing Collins to make plays nobody else at his position can make.

If I have to go with someone last it's going to be Chandler Jones due mostly to health history. Chandler has shown that it's difficult for him to consistently stay healthy while the other two have been very durable. That alone probably breaks the tie. There's also somewhat of a question of versatility. Jones has played inside when BB has asked him to but he hasn't been extremely productive in that role to my eye. I think if Chandler can stay healthy and become more versatile -- play a little more like a Michael Bennett being really disruptive all over the line or improve his coverage skills to add a wrinkle to his game then maybe he gets himself above the two LBs.

Collins/Hightower -- I refuse to chose
Jones

GregHarris · Nov 5, 2015

amarshal2 said:
Others may disagree but I see Collins as somewhat similar to Troy Polamalu. Collins doesn't freelance or improvise and just play with instinct,

Wasn't the the biggest knock against Polamalu is that he freelanced too much and oft caught out of position? The Pats had a field day exposing his bite on play action during the early part of this 15 year long Patriots dynasty.

Edit: after re-reading it, that may have been your point. Nevermind!

amarshal2 · Nov 5, 2015

GregHarris said:
Wasn't the the biggest knock against Polamalu is that he freelanced too much and oft caught out of position? The Pats had a field day exposing his bite on play action during the early part of this 15 year long Patriots dynasty.

That's exactly why I wrote the second sentence. Polamalu was a very good player when the other 10 players on the field did their job allowing him to free lance and make a big impact. That the Pats were able to exploit him is not really relevant -- he was a great player who had a lot of impact on the game most of the time. I'm assuming that what Collins is doing on any given play is what Matty P and BB want him to do and is not free lancing (but hey, I dunno for sure). That the other team never knows what Collins is going to do is by design.

Jones, Hightower, and Collins - You Pick

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