Kevin Love News and Rumors

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

 
Well I don't love Thompson either, so I only think you are kinda nuts.
 
I don't doubt Green could be a nice role player on a championship team, but he I think you are drastically overvaluing him. He's quite replaceable, and should in no way stand in the way of of a Kevin Love trade. 

 
Agree to disagree.  The guy's PER went from 7.1 to 12.7 this past season.  His already strong dRTG went from 102 to 98.  His shooting stats all improved dramatically as well including his threes (a still low but now more functional ~33%).  RPM, for whatever stock you want to put in it, has him at fourth among SFs in the league.  The guy can guard pretty much any position on the court and is, perhaps, the Warriors best all around defender. He gets boards and has off the charts basketball IQ.  I may be overrating him but anyone who has watched this kid play knows he is pretty valuable and not easily replaceable.  Watch a few Warriors (or, ugh, TWolves) games sometime and you will see what I mean.
 
Again, I would be shocked if he was included along with Barnes and Lee and a pick.  As I said, if that were the case, I cannot imagine why Saunders wouldn't leap at the deal.   

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I'm in between here -- Wiggins is worth so much more than anything else on the table for Minnesota, but Love is the best player Lebron will have had since his first year playing alongside Wade. And, given his age, Love's peak should last for another five, six years, if not more. The problem with trading most of their rostered players for Love is that it leaves the Cavaliers, who do not have an MLE to burn, without any viable way to build depth. I think Cleveland would need Brewer in the deal at a minimum.

Isn't trading for Wiggins plus for Love basically putting LeBron on Miami II?  A team with its three stars that will struggle to put quality around them?  Wouldn't it make more sense to build around LeBron/Irving/cost-controlled Wiggins?

 

[bowiac]

Isn't trading for Wiggins plus for Love basically putting LeBron on Miami II?  A team with its three stars that will struggle to put quality around them?  Wouldn't it make more sense to build around LeBron/Irving/cost-controlled Wiggins?

The Heat won 2 titles in 3 years before Wade had a major decline this year. They struggled to put quality around them, but they won anyways. The issue was when it became two stars instead of three.
 
Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love are going to be 22 and 26 respectively (although both with worse injury histories than Wade). They're probably not in for the same kind of decline as Wade. 
 
Generally, the Cavs aren't going to be in much of a position to add good rotation guys even if they keep Wiggins. Cost controlled or not, they're still going to be at the cap. They'd still be dealing in the MLE, mini midlevel, and bi-annual exception to improve, with or without Wiggins. The big "cost" (other than Wiggins himself), is that Bennett or whoever else they move may have value himself.

 

[jon abbey]

Isn't trading for Wiggins plus for Love basically putting LeBron on Miami II?  A team with its three stars that will struggle to put quality around them?  Wouldn't it make more sense to build around LeBron/Irving/cost-controlled Wiggins?

 
Irving and Love are obviously much younger, 22 and 26 respectively when next season starts. Bosh and Wade were 26 and 28 in 2010, 30 and 32 now. 

And "Miami II" is a good thing, they made the Finals all four seasons. 

 

[radsoxfan]

 
Agree to disagree.  The guy's PER went from 7.1 to 12.7 this past season.  His already strong dRTG went from 102 to 98.  His shooting stats all improved dramatically as well including his threes (a still low but now more functional ~33%).  RPM, for whatever stock you want to put in it, has him at fourth among SFs in the league.  The guy can guard pretty much any position on the court and is, perhaps, the Warriors best all around defender. He gets boards and has off the charts basketball IQ.  I may be overrating him but anyone who has watched this kid play knows he is pretty valuable and not easily replaceable.  Watch a few Warriors (or, ugh, TWolves) games sometime and you will see what I mean.
 
Again, I would be shocked if he was included along with Barnes and Lee and a pick.  As I said, if that were the case, I cannot imagine why Saunders wouldn't leap at the deal.   

 
I'm not saying he is bad…. but quoting a PER of 12.7 and a 3 PT% of 33% isn't exactly going to change my mind about how valuable he is.
 
I like his versatility, and think some of his mediocre numbers probably undervalue him a bit as a "glue guy" on a good team.  But if he is the missing piece in a Love trade, I'd do that in a heartbeat if I was Golden State.
 
Personally I think Lee, Barnes, Green and a shitty pick is a pretty terrible return for Love.  It's decent present day value (admittedly I'm not a Barnes fan at all), but in my mind that deal offers very little future value.  I'd much rather have Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, and an unprotected Nets pick. 

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Isn't trading for Wiggins plus for Love basically putting LeBron on Miami II?  A team with its three stars that will struggle to put quality around them?  Wouldn't it make more sense to build around LeBron/Irving/cost-controlled Wiggins?

 
Depends on how much Gilbert cares about paying the luxury tax.  At this point, without having won one, I'm sure he won't care at all.
 
So in 2015-16, you would have Irving, LBJ, and Love making approximately $60M.  Wiggins, Bennett, and Waiters each make approximately $4.5M, but in all likelihood, two of the three won't be here.
 
They have room this year to sign veterans; next year they'll have exceptions to use.  I don't think they will struggle to add quality veterans so long as Gilbert is willing to go above the luxury cap line.
 
Which, I will note, Arison didn't want to do last year and isn't going to do this year.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

 
I'm not saying he is bad…. but quoting a PER of 12.7 and a 3 PT% of 33% isn't exactly going to change my mind about how valuable he is.
 
I like his versatility, and think some of his mediocre numbers probably undervalue him a bit as a "glue guy" on a good team.  But if he is the missing piece in a Love trade, I'd do that in a heartbeat if I was Golden State.
 
Personally I think Lee, Barnes, Green and a shitty pick is a pretty terrible return for Love.  It's decent present day value (admittedly I'm not a Barnes fan at all), but in my mind that deal offers very little future value.  I'd much rather have Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart, and an unprotected Nets pick. 

 
 
That's fair and I wasn't clear with  the PER and 3pt% -  my point was that both numbers are dramatically improved from last season.    I would not move him and I think a package those three is considerably better than Sullinger, Olynyk, Smart and the Nets pick.   We've already covered Green, Lee's offensive game is very good (and he is under contract for two more seasons) and I think Barnes will still be a good NBA player - he has the skills and the IQ but struggled to find a role in GS over the past few seasons.  
 
The C's package does have more potential value but that is it.  Aside from Sullinger, whom I value very highly, its not clear if any of the rest of the package will ever result in meaningful NBA minutes/production.  

 

[Devizier]

He was rounder. You don't need to qualify it.

 
Thanks, ladies and gentlemen, I'll be here all night! Don't forget to tip your waiters and waitresses.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Isn't trading for Wiggins plus for Love basically putting LeBron on Miami II?  A team with its three stars that will struggle to put quality around them?  Wouldn't it make more sense to build around LeBron/Irving/cost-controlled Wiggins?

 
Miami also made some bad choices---not bringing Miller back hurt.   Not anticipating (or at least having a credible solution in place to mitigate) Wade's decline.  Not acquiring a functional vet big guy so they could compete big as well as small.  The guys they picked as the vet wings didn't perform and (in Battier's case) got old.     A significant part of Spurs success is the lack of those mistakes on the second level guys, and if Miami did that part better they probably would have won again.  The Celtics did a much better job building around their big 3, though the window was shorter due to decline amongst the three.
 
So, yes, there's a risk of a three-man team without much around it.  But that's mostly about management choices, not the model....starting with three stars is a great approach if you can build it.

 

[radsoxfan]

 
 
The C's package does have more potential value but that is it.  Aside from Sullinger, whom I value very highly, its not clear if any of the rest of the package will ever result in meaningful NBA minutes/production.  

 
In my opinion, that's what Minnesota should be going for.  Smart and an unprotected Nets pick each have more potential value than anything GS is offering in that trade. Trying to tread water and compete for the 8th seed in the west shouldn't be Minnesota's primary goal in a Love trade.
 
Having said that, I don't expect GM Saunders to allow Coach Saunders to struggle badly in the short term if at all possible.  Which is why a Celtics trade, though reasonable, feels so unlikely. 

 

[HomeRunBaker]

That Bennett pick just gets worse by the day. The number 1 pick from last year has basically no value on the trade market.

To be fair there isn't a player from that draft who carries much value.....certainly not enough to be a key piece of a blockbuster deal. Bennett still has opportunity to grow into a productive frontcourt player as well. He's very young.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Isn't trading for Wiggins plus for Love basically putting LeBron on Miami II?  A team with its three stars that will struggle to put quality around them?  Wouldn't it make more sense to build around LeBron/Irving/cost-controlled Wiggins?

They "struggled" and still won 2 Titles while playing in all 4 NBA Finals. I'm pretty sure that would be considered a massive success anywhere but especially in Cleveland.

They didn't even struggle.....they amnestied Mike Miller last summer and failed to add any frontcourt help because Arison refused to pay additional tax penalties. They had plenty of opportunity to add talent just as Cleveland will.

Edit: Didn't mean to pile on. Just saw other responses now.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

To be fair there isn't a player from that draft who carries much value.....certainly not enough to be a key piece of a blockbuster deal. Bennett still has opportunity to grow into a productive frontcourt player as well. He's very young.

Yeah, if he has "no value" on the trade market then Danny should scoop him up for cheap.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

They "struggled" and still won 2 Titles while playing in all 4 NBA Finals. I'm pretty sure that would be considered a massive success anywhere but especially in Cleveland.

They didn't even struggle.....they amnestied Mike Miller last summer and failed to add any frontcourt help because Arison refused to pay additional tax penalties. They had plenty of opportunity to add talent just as Cleveland will.

Edit: Didn't mean to pile on. Just saw other responses now.

I'll grant that, but would you trade a big three of Miami LeBron/Wade/Bosh for post-Miami Lebron/Irving/Love?   

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Problem is that Bennett is 6'7 in shoes and is really in between positions - too short to guard most PFs effectively and too big to play out on the perimeter. I think an optimistic trajectory for his career is like a Rodney Rogers-level impact. The Cavs obviously thought that he was more Larry Johnson than Rogers. I think Bennett will ultimately have a decent career but it may be a while before he lands in the right spot. Staying in Cleveland may not be the best spot for him since they won't have much patience for his development.

That's the type of complimentary player they hope him to be......nobody is trading value for this upside. There isn't/wasn't anyone who thought Bennett was LJ simply because he was drafted ahead of a bunch of other crap. That draft was so horrific I still would have picked Noel and I'm not sure he's anything more than a roleplayer himself.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I probably would have taken Victor Oladipo with Noel as a close 2nd. Oladipo is still a bit rough around the edges but he had a good rookie campaign and should be a plus defender who scores 16-18ppg in his prime.

I can see that case and the league is currently in a downturn at the 2 spot. However if he's on the Cavs he's not this player as the other wing will eventually be a knock down spot-up 3-point shooter opposite Bron. It would be a very limited role Victor would see.

 

[Reardon's Beard]

With the Cleveland coach coming out and stating there's no way Wiggins is dealt, and GS holding onto Klay Thompson, has Boston moved back into pole position for the Kevin Love Sweepstakes?

 

[knucklecup]

I'd say the pole position is now Minnesota keeping him for another 6-8 months.

What team competing for a Championship is going to trade their best young assets / shake up their roster mid season?

 

[swingin val]

Cap space is nearly as valuable as middling talent. Perhaps more so in at at least they can decide which non-max player they can waste their money on

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Jon KrawczynskiVerified account
‏@APkrawczynski
Wouldn't say there's anything imminent between GSW and Wolves for Love. Just notable that talks have re-opened.
 
 
Here is the AP article (sorry no link - I got it via a Bloomberg system)
 

AP Source: Wolves, Warriors Restart Love Talks
2014-07-15 19:14:30.933 GMT
 
 
By JON KRAWCZYNSKI
    Las Vegas (AP) -- A person with knowledge of the situation
tells The Associated Press that the Minnesota Timberwolves and
Golden State Warriors have restarted trade talks for All-Star
forward Kevin Love.
    The person requested anonymity because both teams are not
publicly commenting on trade discussions.
    Timberwolves president and coach Flip Saunders was seen
talking to Warriors GM Bob Myers during summer league play in
Las Vegas on Sunday.
    The two teams had been going back and forth with proposals
involving Love since before the draft. But the Warriors'
reluctance to include shooting guard Klay Thompson in any
package to Minnesota was considered a deal-breaker for the
Timberwolves.
    The Timberwolves also have been talking to the Cleveland
Cavaliers, who so far have been unwilling to include Andrew
Wiggins in any offer.
 
-0- Jul/15/2014 19:14 GMT
 

 

 
Assuming this is true, its likely a ploy to try to accelerate the process.  As such, we'll see shortly whether the Cavs are serious about holding on to Wiggins.  If so, its down to the C's and Warriors to see who can offer the best package (unless someone else swoops in at the last second).  
 
One other factor to note (as pointed out by a Warriors beat writer) is that given that LeBron has an out in two years, what does that say about Love's apparent willingness to sign long-term in Cleveland?  Love being stuck with the Cavs while LeBron was able to bolt if things don't work out there seems to be a pretty bad scenario.  If I am Love, he has to take the Boston (the team, at least, has steady management and strong tradition of trying to field a winner) or Golden State (Curry will be there for a while) opportunities a bit more seriously.

 

[Vegas Sox Fan]

Couldn't Kevin Love just asked the Cavs to find and replace James with Love on Lebron's contract? Then they could both re-up assuming things go well or both bolt. 

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Couldn't Kevin Love just asked the Cavs to find and replace James with Love on Lebron's contract? Then they could both re-up assuming things go well or both bolt. 

 
Its possible but then if you are Cleveland, are you ok trading Wiggins for just two years of Kevin Love.  I wouldn't do that.

 

[The Social Chair]

I wouldn't trade Wiggins for Kevin Love at all. Summer league means nothing, but you can see that he is rapidly developing his skills. He's improved his ball handling and ability to go left. He's already a top 5 athletic player and I'm convinced his floor is Kawhi Leonard. By the 15-16 season Wiggins will be able to guard the best wing on the other team. That will help extend Lebron's career.

 

[ElUno20]

Now with lebron in Cleveland, if he wanted to, couldnt love end this by saying he will only resign with Cleveland. The same way melo got to the knicks

 

[Devizier]

If Wiggins is off the table, I'd imagine that the Cavaliers are looking for short-term veteran rentals in exchange for Bennett and/or Waiters.

 

[moly99]

The thing I don't like about the Lebron/Wade/Bosh to Kyrie/Lebron/Love comparison is that the Heatles were heavily based around roster flexibility. Depending on the matchup they could play Lebron as a power forward and use Bosh as their center, or they could go big with someone like Birdman. That was critical to making the big three work because they were not able to rely on their bench to cover matchup weaknesses.
 
Meanwhile Love can't fulfill the defensive obligations of a center, so the Cavs would be locked into using Lebron at small forward. Against most teams that should be OK, but it would probably kill them when they faced a team like the Wizards.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Now with lebron in Cleveland, if he wanted to, couldnt love end this by saying he will only resign with Cleveland. The same way melo got to the knicks

He may have already said this for all we know.

 

[bowiac]

I wouldn't trade Wiggins for Kevin Love at all. Summer league means nothing, but you can see that he is rapidly developing his skills. He's improved his ball handling and ability to go left. He's already a top 5 athletic player and I'm convinced his floor is Kawhi Leonard. By the 15-16 season Wiggins will be able to guard the best wing on the other team. That will help extend Lebron's career.

This seems nuts to me. Wiggins was okay in college, has been mediocre in summer league. I know he's super athletic, but even defense isn't purely an athleticism thing. I agree he'll probably eventually be a plus defender, but I'm not sure he should be considered one right now.
 
They'd be the title favorites with Kevin Love right now. LeBron's about to be 30. We shouldn't assume he's going to be unstoppable his whole career. I don't think I'd be waiting to develop Wiggins when I've got LeBron right now.

 

[Infield Infidel]

This seems nuts to me. Wiggins was okay in college, has been mediocre in summer league. I know he's super athletic, but even defense isn't purely an athleticism thing. I agree he'll probably eventually be a plus defender, but I'm not sure he should be considered one right now.
 
They'd be the title favorites with Kevin Love right now. LeBron's about to be 30. We shouldn't assume he's going to be unstoppable his whole career. I don't think I'd be waiting to develop Wiggins when I've got LeBron right now.

 
I wouldn't say they'd be title favorites, they'd be Eastern Conference favorites, but there are at least a few teams out west as good or better. 
 
Lebron will have more years of unstoppable-ness if there is a plus wing defender to guard the other team's best player. Wiggins is that guy. I think a big reason LeBron left Miami is that he had to be an all-world defender all the time. If he is allowed to play less demanding defense, his offense will benefit. 
 
I also think that Wiggins ceiling is really really high. By his third season he could absolutely be on par with a Leonard or George. Guys make huge jumps from ages 19-22. Leonard was solid his rookie season (8ppg, 5rpg,  .571TS%, 37% 3pt). I expect Wiggins's 3pt shooting to be worse but everything else to meet Leonard's rookie year. Their games are bit different, Wiggins will probably be a better play-maker, but Kawhi will likely shoot better outside

 

[nattysez]

From Matt Moore (Hardwood Paroxysm):
 
Celts' offer is the best:  http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24623432/report-warriors-re-engage-wolves-in-trade-talks-for-kevin-love
 
Also:
 
https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/489434977562791936

 

[Silent Chief]

I don't think we can trade Smart now that he has signed. 

 

[ALiveH]

can we really not include smart in this deal?  can't we make a side futures deal of smart for a heavily protected 2nd as part of a love deal?  btw, i like smart a lot but i like love much more.

 

[bowiac]

can we really not include smart in this deal?  can't we make a side futures deal of smart for a heavily protected 2nd as part of a love deal?  btw, i like smart a lot but i like love much more.

Would you move Smart for Love without a promise than Love was going to re-sign?

 

[Silent Chief]

Not if I'm reading this right. 
 
We could've traded the right to sign Smart, but now that we've signed him I think the rules are different.  Fine by me, I've talked myself into the pick. 

 

[Devizier]

Don't the Celtics have to wait until December 15th to trade Smart?

 

[ElcaballitoMVP]

Don't the Celtics have to wait until December 15th to trade Smart?

 
No. That's for any free agent signing.  
 
Rookies can be traded at any point 30 days after they've signed their contract. 

 

[Silent Chief]

Nope.  I was wrong.  30 days is right.  I still wouldn't do it.  I don't think Love will commit to a long term deal.  This team is too far away.  Smart for a rental isn't worth it.

 

[Devizier]

 
No. That's for any free agent signing.  
 
Rookies can be traded at any point 30 days after they've signed their contract. 

 
Fantastic. I'm wondering who Ainge has in mind for his third wheel.

 

[TomRicardo]

Now with lebron in Cleveland, if he wanted to, couldnt love end this by saying he will only resign with Cleveland. The same way melo got to the knicks

 
If he did publicly then Minnesota could threaten to hold him and make it impossible for him to join the Cavs through FA.  It would beyond idiotic for Love to destroy the Timberwolves negotiating power.

 

[MillarTime]

I'm wondering who Ainge has in mind for his third wheel.

 
Who could possibly be available that could slingshot them to being a contender with Rondo-Love? If we burn Sullinger/Smart/Young or future 1st for Love, would we even have the ammo bring in someone else? Even if we did, we would surely have a weak supporting cast around Rondo-Love-TBD All-star and no assurance that group would be together more than a year.
 
Ainge has done a great job of collecting assets. Can't imagine he's going burn them to be a marginal contender for 2014-15 (with several ???? beyond that). 

 

[Zomp]

 
If he did publicly then Minnesota could threaten to hold him and make it impossible for him to join the Cavs through FA.  It would beyond idiotic for Love to destroy the Timberwolves negotiating power.

 
Why would it be impossible?  I've read that he probably couldn't get the max, but may be able to get close to it.

 

[Devizier]

 
Marc Gasol in about a year. 

 
Bonerrific. Although the Knicks have the same idea, right?

 

[TomRicardo]

 
Why would it be impossible?  I've read that he probably couldn't get the max, but may be able to get close to it.

 
He can't.
 
Kyrie's extension plus LeBron makes their cap number 38 million.  The cap appears to be ~65 million for 2015-2016.
 
That means that the Cavs would 27 million of cap space left.  However unless they are going to trade Wiggins for future draft picks, they are going to need to sign him for 4.5 million cap hit this year and ~ 5 million cap hit next year.
 
That means 22 million left for Love and 8 other spots.  So yes Love can theoretically make 18 million, the rest of the team has to be filled with veteran minimum players.  Also the Cavs must renounce the rights or trade every pother player on its roster.
 
A team of Love, LeBron, Wiggins, and Kyrie with scrubs would not be able to win.
 
Edit - I  am assuming they trade away their first round pick next year as well.

 

[bowiac]

I would love to see that team. I agree they wouldn't win, but you'd get some hilarious results.

 

[moondog80]

 
 
A team of Love, LeBron, Wiggins, and Kyrie with scrubs would not be able to win.
 

What makes you sure? Add a couple of ring seeking quality vets for the min and that's easily a better supporting cast for LeBron than the one in Miami that just won the East.

 

[bowiac]

What makes you sure? Add a couple of ring seeking quality vets for the min and that's easily a better supporting cast for LeBron than the one in Miami that just won the East.

It obviously depends on the quality of the veterans, but LeBron played 2900 minutes last year, Kyrie 2500, Love 2800. If we say Wiggins is Paul George, and give him George's 2nd year minutes (2000), then you're up to 10,200 minutes. An NBA team needs to allocate ~19,885 minutes over the course of the year. Those veterans are going to need to play a ton of minutes, and need to be pretty damn good in order to cover up that lack of depth.
 
I also don't agree they'd be better than last year's Heat team even if they filled out that roster, but reasonable minds can differ.

 

[TroyOLeary]

The only way that makes sense from Love's perspective, unless he doesn't really care about the money, is if he signs a one-year deal.
 
Otherwise it's the worst case scenario:  He takes somewhat less than the max, with non-Bird raises, and he misses out on the suspected cap bump that will accompany the new TV deal.
 
Maybe Cleveland is willing to gut their team for a possible one-year window on both Lebron and Love, but that seems very risky.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

This seems nuts to me. Wiggins was okay in college,

Wiggins was arguably the best player in the best conference in the country as an 18-year old freshman. He was voted 2nd although I'd argue he was the best despite going up against the college zone and Self's offensive sets.

To say Wiggins was "okay" last year is borderline outrageous imo.

 

[bowiac]

Wiggins was arguably the best player in the best conference in the country as an 18-year old freshman. He was voted 2nd although I'd argue he was the best despite going up against the college zone and Self's offensive sets.

To say Wiggins was "okay" last year is borderline outrageous imo.

"Arguably" is an awfully broad brush. I watched a lot of Kansas games and didn't get a "wow" impression. His shooting efficiency was 460th in the nation. His usage was 312th. He didn't get many blocks, ranking 422nd. Didn't get many steals either. His best statistical ranking was in fouls drawn, at 169th. The best "all in one" stat I know of ranked him 62nd in the country (44th adjusting for minutes). I don't agree about Self's offensive sets either - the evidence I've seen on coach-specific translations shows individual Kansas players underperform in the NBA, not the other way around. From watching them, I think until Embiid got hurt, Wiggins was probably the third best player on his own team (behind Embiid and Ellis).
 
This could be a situation where all the stats are wildly misleading and he was actually a great player last year. I can't pretend I watched much of the 61 guys who rank ahead of him, but I really don't think saying he was only "okay" is super nuts.

 

[luckiestman]

how well does that college VORP predict NBA performance?